What do you do when all your gear is gone?

On other threads we are discussing carrying the necessities. However, Ed brought up a good point... don't forget to bring an active mind as well.

Here is a hypothetical scenario:

You are nearing the end of the third day of a seven day off-trail trek into the backcountry of northern Maine. For once, there are no biting insects. The late-August weather has been so warm you are wearing just shorts and a T-shirt; all the other layers are in your pack in case you need them.

With a sigh of relief, you shrug off your pack and walk about fifty feet away to respond to a call of nature.  A loud growl and the sound of fabric tearing catches your attention. A black bear is attacking your pack, ripping it and tossing it from side to side. You watch as the bear drops your pack... over a ledge right into some Class 5 rapids in the river below. The last you see of all your gear is a hint of blue Cordura going over a falls into an inaccessible canyon. The bear wanders away.

You are left with T-shirt, shorts, a bandana, socks, underwear (optional), and a pair of sturdy hiking boots. No hat, that went with the pack. In your pockets you have a comb and a wallet; car keys, map, compass, and cellphone were in the pack. You do, however, have a fixed-blade knife with a three inch high-carbon steel blade.

It is three hours until sunset. You see rain clouds coming your way, but you figure you have two hours before the rain hits. The previous night it was in the low forties, but the rain might keep it warmer. You are on a relatively flat area with scrub third or fourth growth spruce, some white birch, and the river below you. 

What is the first thing that you do?

Debris shelter, collectimg firewood while you get building materials,im a smoker so my cigs and lighter are always in my pocket, firesteel hangs around my neck at all times in the woods. Birch bark to start the fire and layered spruce boughs for the roof and my bed. Im sorry about the extra gear but thats where I carry it for just that reason, I assumed I was on a loop, too far to just keep moving and walk out. The spruce boughs can double as smoke signal material and the flames could be seen at night, if any cordage could be found I might go with a dome structure.Knowing where I was would determine if I sat tight waiting for other hikers or attempted tp self rescue, depending on the amount of trail usage, popularity of the river for paddlin. If I didnt have fire making capabilities, I would make a deeper bed of boughs in my debris shelter and burrow into them for warmth.

The first thing to do is sit down (away from the  bear) and think. The people who die are the ones who panic. 

With the knife you have the makings of a shelter. Like hotdogman, although I don't smoke, I carry a lighter in my pocket at all times. That gives me fire. There's a river, so I have water. No food, but I won't die of starvation in that time.

So I would make a shelter and fire, sleep on the problem overnight, then in the morning, with a mind that is rested and calm, decide whether to head back or go forward (depending on factors like the likelihood of meeting other hikers for help or on my knowledge of the difficulty of either route). 

It's closer to turn around and go back or get to a bailout point than it is to continue for another three and a half days. Since I'm only into the third day of a seven-day backpacking trip, I know no one will be looking for you for at least four or five more days. I'm also not lost, just gear-deprived. Without the pack, I can cover a lot more ground faster - might be able to make it back in a day and a half by travelling fast and light and long. 

I'd leave a note at the shelter about where i went and why (if I have some way of doing so) and get going.

No one can describe accurately what to do in those circumstances. It might or might not rain, you might meet other hikers around the next corner who might be able to help you out. Be flexible, adapt to change, and think of the whole adventure as a minor annoyance rather than something to fear. 

Just two questions though: Why would you set your pack down and walk 50 ft away from it? And why would you be having a problem with a bear? 

Lol, check out this report from last summer, not quite the same scenario but close:

If Packs Could Talk

Comb your hair.

I want to go hiking with hotdogman.

There are many right answers to the problem posed above.

If I were in that situation, I would first try to remember the last compass heading I had used to reach my current position and then lay an arrow of rocks in that directions. Tomorrow, I would have an idea of North, even if it was overcast and raining. Next, I would try to sketch my map position on the ground, to help me visualize the possibilities for walking out. These are things done best while the map and compass memories are still fresh.

Since I was off-trail hiking, I could not depend upon help from other hikers. However, in Northern Maine, the forest is crisscrossed with wood roads for hauling out pulpwood and lumber. Also, some of the waterways are heavily traveled in summer by canoeing parties. Based upon my current position, either of those might offer help.

I would think about a plan of action for tomorrow after building my shelter for the night. Since rain seemed likely, I would probably seek a sandy area at the base of a spruce and use spruce boughs woven into the branches overhead and boughs behind me to create a sort of lean-to. I would clear a large area in front of the shelter of pine needles and duff, saving a large pile of dry pine needles.

Next, I would prepare the fire area by bringing small dry branches and larger pieces of squaw wood to one corner of the shelter. That way, I could feed the fire without getting up. Several large flat rocks would form the base for the fire. These would be removed, hot, and buried in the sand I would be sleeping on. I would try to start a fire with dry birch punk shredded fine and any other fibrous tinder, and a spark struck with the back of my knife from rock -- if suitable rock is available. The shelter would act as a reflector for my fire and warm me all over. I would not despair if I couldn't get a fire going. (I would borrow hotdogman's lighter) Instead I would spend some time gathering more dry pine needles and dry dead leaves. These would be my covering for the night; not much, but enough to prevent wind from chilling my bare legs and torso. Since we lose most of our heat through the head, I would probably stuff my underwear with pine needles and put it around my head and neck.

That is what I might do.

Sounds like overkill, overmywaders. 

It sounds like you'd have a lot of time-consuming projects to get done before dark and the rain rolls in. They might be nice ideas, but are they all  really necessary? In this case the only necessity is to stay warm and dry overnight. 

A couple of concerns; rocks heated in a fire can explode - probably not a good thing under the best of circumstances - and I wonder how you would plan on moving them to a place where they could be buried in the sand if they were hot enough to generate heat through it. Should you manage that, what's to prevent you from getting seriously burned if you happen to poke an elbow or knee through the sand and make contact with a hot rock? 

But stuffing your underwear with pine needles sounds like a painful thing to be doing if you plan to wear them the next day while hiking. Typically, adding layers of boughs or handfuls of dry leaves would be done by tucking them in under a jacket (or something similar). You would also lose the insulating value of your underwear on your body by using it to make a collar.

You talked about putting your bundle of needles around your neck and head to reduce heat loss -  bear in mind that the reason you lose most of your body heat through your head is because heat rises. In a reclining position (like sleeping), the heat loss would be more generalized.  

Here's your answer. Patman's 'been there, done that'.

If Packs Could Talk

(Just playing Devil's advocate, by the way. Nothing personal. )

overmywaders said;

 In your pockets you have a comb and a wallet; car keys, map, compass, and cellphone were in the pack. You do, however, have a fixed-blade knife with a three inch high-carbon steel blade.

Thats ridiculous. I have more survival gear in my pockets right now sitting here on the computer.   If you going to make the scenario that unrealastic might as well say your on a deserted island in an ocean of antifreeze on another planet.  LOL 

related link

http://www.trailspace.com/forums/backcountry/topics/105738.html#105995

Peter,

River rocks and ocean rocks can trap moisture and explode, I was referring to rocks well above river level. This method of collecting heat has been used for cooking and warming the body for millennia. The stones are pushed from beneath or around the fire with a stout stick.

The reason you lose much of your body heat through the head is because it is usually the part that is uncovered, not due to its position. Since all the rest of the body, in my situation above, would be covered, I wanted to insure that the head was as well. Underwear has both an inside and an outside. No harm wearing it on the morrow.

The actions I mentioned are not time consuming, but will provide a little more comfort, possibly a more refreshing sleep, both of which will improve my spirits when I start walking tomorrow. 

As a "wanderer" in the late 1960's through the early 1970's, I spent many nights under the stars at all seasons, without a tent or tarp, and survived nicely. Mind you, I smoked back then so I always had matches and never actually made a fire with flint and steel, that's why I said "If I get a fire going."

I've lived in uninsulated farmhouses in Canada with no central heating. Heating a brick or two and wrapping them in towels made the bed a lot more comfortable when the temp outside was ten degrees and you had to keep a tap dripping through the night to prevent the pipes from freezing. And a brick or rock would never spring a leak like a hot water bottle.

There are thousands of correct answers to rescue oneself in the situation I posed.

Thought this was applicable here:

In case you can't read the small print. 

Is taking inappropriate equipment to out of the way places.

I think everyone is over thinking this one.  One option of any contingency plan considers the quickest time possible to the road head.  I know by experience that two or even three days in with a pack is at most one day out without a pack.  Hence that would be my first option.  I may arrive exhausted and thirsty, but I would be out, probably with less risk than pursuing a more deliberate survival man routine.  Ok, not as sexy as Bear Gillis rubbing two sticks using his feet, but given the scenario described, I feel confident, knowing my typical level of pre-trip preparation included a thorough review of the map before I even set out, and that I would be able to get around and at least retrace my steps.  This assuming I can keep moving; otherwise I'd spend my remaining daylight setting up to hunker down: first fire, second shelter, then third water.  I can take care of all of these given what I was wearing as described.  The problem with hunkering down is day two you are still there and probably further depleted than you were at the end of day one.  It all boils down to a calculation of how long you think you can last under such conditions, pursuing various options, versus how much attrition you experience over time pursuing a given strategy.

Ed     

Scenario 1: i would pull the SPOT tracker out of the pocket of my shorts and activate it.  how many nights in the 40's and rain does anyone actually think they are going to survive in shorts and a t-shirt? (i can feel the virtual empty beer bottles being chucked at me already).

Scenario 2: i chase the bear, climb on its back, kill it with a well-placed strike to the spine, then skin it to stay warm.  and gather some sticks and birch bark, start a fire, and eat bear meat for dinner.  then start the long hike out, wearing the bear skin, hoping some hiker won't kill me with a well-placed knife thrust to MY spine......

Scenario 3: my goal in that situation is to first and foremost try to stay as warm and as dry as possible.  i would try to find a cave or overhang to ride out the rain that is apparently coming - easier and better than trying to build a shelter that actually keeps me dry.  after that, use downed and dry sticks/branches, pine needles, birch bark, and cut some pine boughs with th knife, for bedding, cover, and a fire. 

Ed,

It is three hours to sunset and rain in two hours. You are not hiking on a trail, but just going by map and compass. You no longer have either map or compass. The surroundings are scrub spruce, which usually grow fairly tightly together, not like the pine barrens in central Michigan, which are almost park-like. Given the above, setting out to retrace your steps in the dark and rain seems dangerous. I think leadbelly has a better idea with the bear. :)

I must say I have not hiked back east so cannot say how formidable a challenge the flora presents for the task at hand.  Part of the problem with your challenge is you have a vision of what this challenge is, but we may envision it differently for a variety of reasons.  

I have made similar marches (admittedly under less duress and less distances) through tightly grouped Aspen stands in the Front Range of Colorado.  I have done quite a bit of night navigation, with only occasional instances where I could not reconnoiter my way.  My friends think I have homing radar or night vision; such is my ability to navigate under poor circumstances.  But I attribute this ability to studying the maps before I depart, certain learned skills and good moment to moment awareness of my whereabouts.  I don’t get easily disoriented.  Thus I may not recommend others do as I would in this situation, as it appears I have an edge in this regard.  But if I thought my odds were better pursuing an alternative plan - and I have been in places where I would not attempt navigation at night - I would hop on that boat instead.  The truth is you present a textbook fatal scenario.  Maine is notoriously damp and chilly; an impending rain just punctuates the grim circumstances.  Few will make it out, unless luck presents the gifts of dry wood and instant shelter in close proximity.  As Peter already noted, the time line you describe doesn't allow much preparation for what lies ahead.  I concur.

Ed

I have a large dome structure I built on my property last year. I built this one to about 80% completion in two hrs. It is way bigger than I would build in a survival situation, prob 8 by 10 with 5 foot ceiling. Im gonna try to post a pic in this thread but it will be on my profile in a few mins. I can build a debris shelter in less than a hr, those woods sound perfect. Evergreens bend better than harder woods, and the branches when layered properly, hold themselves together and shed water admirably. As someone said I always have some gear in my pockets,i hike in cargo pants for the pocket space. I am confident I could have a shelter and fire in the time discussed. I would build a shelter sized to crawl into to conserve my own heat. If I was trying to use heat from a fire, I would build the fire body length, collecting my building materials at the same time as my firewood. Then 30 mins before the rain(guessing) I would move my fire, sweeping the area with a branch to ensure I got it all , then build my shelter over the old fire spot, thus trapping the residual heat under my body and shelter. Im a hot sleeper so if I could stay dry I dont think I would need to do that in those conditions. I love this kind of stuff, I build 3or 4 debris shelters every summer, then lay newspaper where I would be and come back the next day to see how much it leaked. Im pretty good at it.

I just posted a couple pics of that shelter on my profile if you wanna look. I forgot in my last post to say ppine ill hike with you any day. I am hesitant to type this but, would a gunshot maybe have made the bear drop the pack and run. In bear country/season I would prob have one. On my belt, not in my pack, and yea a big enough one to stop him if I had to. Please dont hurt me guys.(and girls) I know guns arent for everybody.

Im new here but know exactly what I would do.  I would simply turn around and head back the way I came and hike out....non stop.  I figure three days of leasure hiking in would be a one and a half day paranoid hike out with no sleep dont need a shelter or anything else.  I can easily go that long with out rest or food and am very good at recognising the way I came.

No such thing as third or fourth growth.  Like calling the Sierra the Sierras.

Duane

Duane,

I think you need to critique the Sierra Club who write:

Third and fourth growth forests that have been clear-cut two and three times, respectively, have much lower levels of bio-diversity than second growth lands and are difficult for the foresters to regenerate, which is why it is vital that we do not convert our valuable second growth forests to third growth.

Also, a glossary of forestry terms will mention third growth.

As a retried forester, I agree with overmywaders.

Just a note in passing, biodiversity is affected by a lot of different thingsl like fire history and forest management practices.  Lands that are harvested several times do not necessarily have lower species diversity.

This country suffers from a serious lack of harvesting on Forest Service lands, which has lead to large scale catostrophic fires from over-stocked stands and the build up of fuels.

I'm going off of info garnered up here in timber country.  I'll have to consult with my third generation logger, Donna.  Y'all otta know her from the Yellow Ribbon Rallys in N Kalifornia/State of Jefferson.  The Sierra Club isn't all knowing, so I can't necessarily go off of their writings.  Logging had been going on long before they arrived on the scene.

Little bit of Redneck Duane

overmywaders said:

Peter,

River rocks and ocean rocks can trap moisture and explode, I was referring to rocks well above river level. This method of collecting heat has been used for cooking and warming the body for millennia. The stones are pushed from beneath or around the fire with a stout stick. 

I disagree. As you point out, river rocks  and rocks under the ocean can TRAP moisture. Permanently. Like water-bearing rocks that scientists are looking for on Mars and the moon, their present location has nothing to do with it. And as you apparently are unaware, many of the rocks you see around you come from sediment that was at one time part of the ocean bed. 

I had a university student from Iran hiking with me one time, and he figured that he had some kind of ancient woodlore trick he could teach me. Only one of the rocks in his firering shattered, but it made him reconsider the benefits of following old wives tails against better advice.

The reason you lose much of your body heat through the head is because it is usually the part that is uncovered, not due to its position. 

Again, it appears you have been misinformed. I refered to thermal imaging so you could find photos that would demonsrate the principles I was talking about.  What they will show you is that when a person is standing, heat rises under the clothing, but gets lost as it vents out around the head. It's ALL about position.

One example you might want to look at is wearing coveralls, Using the same principle, coveralls will keep your entire body much warmer by funelling heat that would otherwise be lost up from your feet and legs to your torso then your head. To regulate, all you do is lay back the hood or take off your hat. 

I've lived in uninsulated farmhouses in Canada with no central heating. Heating a brick or two and wrapping them in towels made the bed a lot more comfortable when the temp outside was ten degrees and you had to keep a tap dripping through the night to prevent the pipes from freezing.

Ten degrees???!! Not so very cold actually - that's hardly a reference for your knowledge of how to handle cold weather. I remember a week in a tiny cabin at Czar, Alberta, when the temperatures never got above -45°C. I've stayed in a few of those cabins, but the ones I stayed in had no running water either. Dripping faucets, indeed! That's what you do in a trailer court here to keep the pipes from freezing. 

But you mention heating a warm brick. That works, but it works because the brick has already been fired in a kiln, which eliminates the moisture.  Take a look at the scrap pile outside a brickyard sometime for the bricks that exploded in firing. 

Not meaning to pick on you, but when you're 'Talking through your Tilley'......

Lesson learned: pee with your pack on.

hikerduane said:

No such thing as third or fourth growth.  Like calling the Sierra the Sierras.

Duane

But you obsess!  When you say calling the Sierra the Sierras, do you mean calling a saw the saws (sierra is also Spanish for saw), or do you mean calling the Sierra (Nevada) the Sierras?  And if that is your point don't you capitalize the word the, as in The Sierra?  The colloquial use of sierra just means mountains and doesn't formally address any specific mountain range, thus is no more correct than using the term Sierras.  And what if we meant to actually talk about the Sierra in California and the Sierra in Spain - Los Sierras if you will?  Now I obsess!  It is pointless to argue this issue anyway.  Few of us speak King's English, let alone King's Spanish; and the colloquial term Sierras is in widespread use. 

In any case I find it ironic you should wish to discuss second third or forth growth forests, and opine on the correct terminology to describe such forests by employing a term that means saw!  Who'd thunk dat? 

Ed

Peter,

Certainly it is possible for sedimentary rocks to crack and even explode violently from heat great enough to cause trapped moisture to turn to steam. I don't disagree with that. However, stones have been warmed safely for thousands of years - unless sweat lodges, saunas, and baking stones are mythical - and still represent a safe means of heat storage and transfer. I would not think of heating a stone to the point that the stone was liable to burn me if I lay upon it - with a layer of insulation between body and stone. Most things that are useful have hidden dangers when used improperly - food, fire, etc. - yet we continue to use them for their benefits. 

You said:

Again, it appears you have been misinformed. I refered to thermal imaging so you could find photos that would demonsrate the principles I was talking about.  What they will show you is that when a person is standing, heat rises under the clothing, but gets lost as it vents out around the head. It's ALL about position.

No, it is not about position. If you remove the person's shirt or pants to the bare skin, the heat loss will be great there, whether the person is standing or lying down. 

"Human skin is an almost perfect emitter of infrared radiation in the spectral region beyond 3 microns." from Thermography of the Human Body by Barnes, RB

Anywhere you have exposed skin, you are losing more heat than covered skin. No matter how the body is positioned, it makes the most sense to cover as much skin as possible to reduce heat loss. That is why I would cover my head and neck.

Now, if you want to read about heat loss through clothing, I suggest you start with this passage:

When a person is dressed with clothing, the process of
heat exchange between human body and the environment
becomes very complex. Heat and moisture transfer through
clothing are dissipated from the skin of human body. After
that, they are divided into two parts. One flows directly into
the environment by convection and radiation from the
exposed skin. The other is transferred into the clothing
microclimate. In the clothing microclimate, some is taken
away by ventilation, and the remainder goes through
clothing materials. Finally, it goes out from the outer surface
of clothing ensembles. In the clothing materials, conduction,
convection and radiation are the mechanisms of heat
transfer, while diffusion, absorption/desorption, condensation/
evaporation and wicking are the forms of liquid water/
moisture transfer. Heat and moisture transfer are coupled
since absorption/desorption and condensation/evaporation
are accompanied with heat release and absorption.

 

so that you can see the complexity of the subject and then you can wander into the math, which is way beyond me. see 

A transient thermal model of the human body–clothing–environment system
Xianfu Wan, Jintu Fan
2007 Journal of Thermal Biology

Also, the thermal images you mention but do not point to, will, if the hands are not covered, also show the hands as bright as the face, though according to your reasoning, they should only be radiating heat in a particular position.

As for how much cold I have experienced; I am not going to enter into a puerile game of one-up-manship with you. Suffice that I spent winters in many Canadian provinces from Manitoba, east. I spent parts of some winters in tents when I was working in the woods or building a cabin for myself. I offered instances in which I had heated bricks to indicate the usefulness of the practice, not to fluff my chest hairs (of which I have four at last count). 

I don't have a Tilley. I tried one, but looked silly in it - but not as foolish as you appear with your Freudian insufficiencies on display. (Of course, you will say "It is shrinkage from the cold." Yeah, right.)

Not meaning to pick on you, but when you're 'Talking through your ...... :)

Ed, I'm trying to recall what was discussed some years back on Highsierratopix.  It was stated Sierra is plural already and a Spanish term I believe as you stated.  Going off of that.  So I believe they were saying there was no such thing as Sierras.  Thank you for the research on the Spanish that sierra means saw. Sorry I side tracked the topic.  Sawzall?:)

Duane

hikerduane said:

Ed, I'm trying to recall what was discussed some years back on Highsierratopix.  It was stated Sierra is plural already and a Spanish term I believe as you stated.  Going off of that.  So I believe they were saying there was no such thing as Sierras.  Thank you for the research on the Spanish that sierra means saw. Sorry I side tracked the topic.  Sawzall?:)

Duane

I was just being corny and you are correct in all you cite; but at some point widespread use of slang makes it a defacto member of our lexicon, regardless the offical keepers of the words (Oxford, Webster, et al) haven't recognized it. Yet i have heard and used the term Sierras since the 1960s.  Likewise they haven't recognized OC, slang for Orange County, yet that term is used by millions here in greater So Cal.  According to the offical keepers of the words So Cal isn't a valid word, either, regardless its use is international.  And that is my point: there is nothing new about these slang, yet they are not recognized by the word keepers.  At some point such resistance is stodgy.

Ed

Soooo...  Nobody even thinking Domino's to deliver?

Lots of cool view points guys. Some funny ones too. But a really cool scene to play on.

Well for starters, I always have my knife on me. Seriously man... we cuddle in my bag at night when i'm in the bush. Its not a 3 inch blade though. So, that would have to be my only change to the gear. But with my BK2 attached to me like a conjoined twin... I have a FireSteel, 20ft of 550 cord, and a small fishing kit modified into the sheath. So with a two hour window before the rain hits, and a three hour window till sunset. Since I am off trail, and the chance of passers by is highly unlikely, at least for the rest of the day. My main priority is to insure thermo regulation before night fall. Hence... its time to throw a debri hut together. I've done it a few times while on hikes before. And, with a good knife, and the cordage I have at hand... It should take just under an hour, once I've scouted a good location. Which is plenty of time to work and not burn through many calories. Remember when building a survival shelter, smaller is better. After the debri hut is down, my next priority would be fire. Lucky for the FireSteel. Once that is done, I'd stock up on as much wood as possible before sunset. Then, i'd be left to try and get some rest before dawn. At first light I would break camp, collect whatever cordage I used in case I had to spend the night in another shelter. And then I'm left to decide which way to travel. Though I lost the compass and map in the bear vs pack match I witnessed the previous evening (I cheered for the pack, but my money was on the bear) I'm sure I would have a general idea as to what direction the trail was in. But being off trail for 3 days I doubt I would head back in that general direction. And since no one is expecting me to check in for another 4, it's up to me to walk out. Northern Maine is pretty broad. But, knowing that survival rules dictate to follow a creek or river south. I guess that is what I would do. While following the river south away from Canada, I would be on the look out for clean water. I don't think Maine is famous for their droughts, so I would hopefully find some. Since I have no way of boiling river water to make it safe, I would give myself about a day. But, I would be on the look out for any type of container. It's wild the trash you stumble across even of trail. If I had no luck in finding rescue from folks in canoes, or stumbling across other signs of civilization; when that day was up... I guess I would be drinking river water. But, I would hope to find something to boil water in. Then I'd post up camp again, and repeat it the next day. Most of the time, you have about a 48 hour door before waterborne pathogens like cryptosporidium, giardia, and dysentery get to you. The average survival scenerio normally plays out between 24 to 72 hours. With any luck... I can make it out before I start spraying the bush from both ends, if I contracted anything form the water. If not... I guess I'm Bantha Fodder. LOL! Cool play of words though man. Makes you think.

BE COOL

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