What determines winter hiking?

This may seem like a question that shouldn't be asked, as the answer is probably obvious, but I'm still a newbie and I don't want to make a mistake that will turn me against all of this - So ----

I think I probably have everything I need to venture out on an overnighter finally if the weather decides to dry up a bit, but I'm not real sure since I haven't been out yet. It's getting marginal here in WV as far as the ground saturation levels due to a lot of rain, and the temps are getting down to freezing sometimes. I would still like to take a few hikes without staying out overnight first.

I have a three season Zoid 2, and a sleeping bag rated to 20 degrees. If I feel comfortable in the bag, the winds aren't too high, and bad weather stays away, am I still in the three season limits? Of course, I'd try this out in the back yard or something first to verify the comfort levels and such.

I'm not in any rush to make a mistake, but I sure don't want to wait until late Spring to dirty this stuff up. If anyone can give me their opinions on what they consider the thresholds of what they consider winter hiking, I'd certainly like to hear them.

I'm going to say that I already know it's an individual thing, based on experience, confidence, knowledge, and how the individual handles the relative term "cold", so I sort of am aware of these limitations already (I have none of the first, a little of the second and third, and feel good in the cold as long as I can bundle up). Keep in mind also that this wouldn't be a Mt. Ranier type trip, but something in a local WV forest or park.

And Bill, I'm a little worried on this one as this could be a very serious mistake on my part if I use bad judgement, so I'm not playing Alfred E. here.

Thanks for anything offered.

Steve

Steve, I don't mean to seem flip about this, but you need to stop worrying about this stuff and just go somewhere. Check the weather, pack your gear and go. Take a friend and if you get too cold or too wet or too anything, just be close enough to get back to your car in an hour or so of moderate hiking. Take rain gear and warm clothes and you'll be fine.

You're not going to the moon. Everything doesn't have to be perfect. I've been wet, I've been cold; I'm still around. To me winter means snow on the ground and the need for a sturdy tent, shovel and so on, but some people do fine with a tarp. No snow, it ain't winter.

Tom,

Quote:
To me winter means snow on the ground and the need for a sturdy tent, shovel and so on, but some people do fine with a tarp. No snow, it ain't winter.

Good enough. I sort of expected the "don't worry" part. No flipness taken. I value your opinion or I wouldn't ask for it. I will never take anything on the list as negative comments unless it is obviously meant to be negative. A really good bunch of people, I feel.

I thank you very kindly for the response, and put a checkmark on the 'go if it feels right' side. There are so many terms associated with all of this stuff, like 3-season, 4-season, hiking, trekking, etc. that I wonder if it isn't just marketing sometimes. It's difficult to apply these terms sometimes.

I intend to use what I have and replace it if it isn't right for what I'm doing with it. When it all comes down to the time that I feel I'm really a proficient hiker, it will just mean I feel comfortable with what I can do with the gear I have.

Thanks again,

Steve

Steve, Some of it is marketing, but winter tents generally are different-they tend to be heavier, have more poles, less ventilation, less mesh and have a vestibule. Another class of winter tent includes all the single wall mountaineering tents such as the Integral Designs,Biblers and Black Diamond Bibler clones. Some of the online stores like backcountrygear.com have charts that make it easy to compare a lot of different models.

Can you use a three season tent in winter? Yes, I've done it. Not the best solution, but doable depending on the weather. Remember, winter doesn't always mean raging storms and high winds, so what you need is weather dependent just as in the other three seasons.

I kinda know about the tents being different for different seasons, and it's pretty obvious about the ratings on sleeping bags. Tonight I'm trying out my old sleeping bag and old Eureka for the first time in below 50 weather. It's to get down around 35. I'm suprised how comfortable it is so far, even as windy as it is. I'm hoping to find other things the cooler weather might present before I go very far away.

I was also aware of the wind strength properties of winter tents, but the snow load limits of both type tents are pretty much a mystery. I don't want to get out in snow now anyway with my level of expertise.

So I'm taking a very short step tonight to start benchtesting things. Wish me luck (I'm afraid my dogs might pee on the tent before I can settle down for the night).

Thanks loads Tom.

Steve,

My two cents on the subject. Don't wast your time in the backyard.

Just sell your gear and go back in the house to bed.

Okay, I would not do that either.

What I do suggest is, get out of the backyard, you are not going to get a good feel for your gear until you are away from the safety net of your house.

I do go hiking in the winter as I only live a few miles from Rocky Moutain National Park. I have not however, hiked and spent the night in the snow.

What I do like to do is head into the high country to a good camping spot and then set up camp for the night near my truck. I often will sleep in the back of my truck. I have spent many 20 degree nights in the high country. If the weather takes a turn for the worst, then I have the option to wait it out in my truck or head back home.

I rather enjoy day hikes in the winter time. I will add, that even on day hikes I carry a backpack with extra layers in case I get stuck over night. I will often carry my sleeping bag and tent as well, just in case.

If you sleep in the high county near your truck, you will get a feel for what you like and dislike. Even though it is near your truck, it is away from home. I think that is the main thing for me. I enjoy being in the high country.

Hope this help.
-John

John,

Gosh, you guys are good! How'd you know I had a truck?

No really, the whole purpose of setting up in the backyard is to test the equipment and see if it even works. With the limited time I have sometimes, it would have been such a waste to take off and find out the tent had mildewed or something. And then to familiarize myself with the new stuff. The tent is about 35 years old, and I have even got to set up the new one I have.

I will do some day hikes with pack also. Our winters have not been too bad over the past few years, and should allow for quite a few decent hikes.

Thanks for the change - good ideas.

Steve.

Steve and John, I don't see much difference, other than the drive, between the backyard and the truck. I've been car camping; no shame in that. What hiking does is get you into places most people don't go because it involved extra planning, walking and carrying everything you need. Also,no big family style tents, no color tv and boom boxes, no coolers full of beer and no big barbeques for those steaks you brought. Car camping doesn't necessarily mean mobs of people either, depending on where you go, but that usually is the tradeoff for the convenience. I'm not big on crowds, but plenty of folks don't mind, judging from how popular it is.

Hiking separates you from the herd and let's you see what most of them never will. Compare the Valley floor in Yosemite with the backcountry. Totally different experiences, but both are "camping" to most people. For some folks, car camping is all they will do, for many different reasons. But, it's not a bad place to start. IF you treat your trip like a backpacking trip (no extras just because you can bring them),setting up a tent and cooking won't be that much different, just because the truck is nearby.

Like the Motel 6 commercial says, once you turn out the lights, all hotel rooms look alike.

"Winter hiking" is any hiking done between Dec 1 and March 1 if you are in the northern hemisphere or between June 1 and Sept 1, if you are in the southern hemisphere!

The terminology "3-season", "4-season", "winter camping", etc etc etc, is just semantics. You can encounter blizzard conditions any month of the year in the Sierra or Rockies, and you can experience blistering hot dry conditions any month of the year in Death Valley. The terminology is just a kind of shorthand.

A summer thunderstorm with high winds can be as bad or worse than any blizzard. Even an expedition tent, designed for multiple days of severe storms on Mt Everest, will not stand up to a tornado.

Point is, you need to pay attention to the weather forecasts and in any case have a Plan B (for Bail Out Plan), no matter what the season.

Setting up the tent, or full campsite, in the back yard does give you a chance to check the tent that has been sitting in the garage for 30 years, and hose it down to check on leaks (or at least turn on the lawn sprinkler for several hours, or let it sit in the rain for 24 hours). No need to camp in the back yard, though. It is probably a good idea to start out with a car camp (not the backyard), IF you have the gear in your pack as if you were going to backpack 10 miles, pull up to the campsite, put on the pack, lock the car, hike the 20 feet to your tentsite, set up camp, and do everything as if you really were 10 miles into the backcountry (no fair getting up in the middle of the night to get something out of the car, but please do use the campground's latrine and not the nearest tree). Do it even if it is raining!

This will give a chance to gain some confidence in your gear. Next, as Tom suggests, backpack a mile or so from the car, and do the same thing - set up camp, and no returning to the car until the next day.

Be sure to include a rainy trek for at least one or two of these practice campouts. Take a pocket thermometer to check on how cold it gets.

But mainly, JUST GET OUT THERE AND DO IT!

And for Jonathan, forget all this worry about which brand of stove or pot is "perfect". Just buy a stove, doesn't matter which one, and a pot, doesn't matter what brand, and get out there in the woods and hills, cook a few dozen meals, and forget all the worry nonsense.

Guys, camping, hiking, and backpacking (and snowshoeing, climbing, backcountry skiing) are NOT about the gear. It's all about being in the outdoors, preferably away from the crowds, stretching your limbs in propelling yourself from one place to another, and enjoying the natural world - trees, flowers, birds, squirrels, and yes, bears, snakes, puma, raccoons, ..., in all kinds of weather and in all seasons.

Tom,

My ultimate goal is to be able to hike away from people, but I felt it proper to test this stuff I have. I'm using a 10 year old sleeping bag and foam pad, a 35+ year old tent, things like that. I kind of agree with you in the aspect of the Motel 6 type stuff, and to some degree, agree with John, but only in the fact that it will be different, but not necesary, to get away into the non-backyard environment, to test my gear.

I have seen many times here and in my "Hiker" book that it's a good idea to test your equipment before hitting real dirt. It doesn't matter where as long as the conditions are not too different than those of your hike destination. So don't test a stove at sea level and head for McKinley thinking things are the same.

The test showed me that I need to lubricate the zippers on the tent, and maybe the bag, if I'm to use these, and that rain doesn't come through the tent itself, as I didn't have the fly over it for the light drizzle that came through the area. I also learned how moisture seeps into the floor and needs retreated as it became damp underneath my pad (I don't have a footprint, but will try the Tyvek stuff since this is such an old tent), and maybe a better pad. I also learned my Kmart Coleman bag does better than expected in 38 degree coolness with a fair breeze and I don't need a better one just yet until the real cold sets in. Maybe not even then as it's rated to 20 degrees. It will need compression straps though to help with it's bulkiness.

To me, this was well worth the time. The backyard allowed me to hang the tent immediately after pulling up stakes to allow it to dry. The pad, which became a little wet, was brought in and dried.

John may not realize that I am a rookie, but I know Tom knows I'm a worrisome newbie. This all just seemed to be a logical step in discovering "What determines winter hiking". And I didn't worry a bit about any of it!!

Thanks both of you for your insight. I hope you both see how I am taking your ideas and applying them. The "Hiker" describes the away-from-home syndrome pretty well, so I know where John is coming from. And I think Tom sees what I am trying to do in the back yard.

-Steve

Bill,

You snuck that one in on me while I was writing the last short story, else I would have answered your comments in the last post.

I realize it's not about gear, as you say, since most of my equipment will not be state-of-the-art gear. You see what I am using from the prior post, and I'm also to start with a Coleman Apex I stove. I don't even see those ever mentioned. I'm kind of proud of the fact that I'll be using it all as it is. Except for the new tent I have bought, the other brand-new stuff are things I didn't already have from my car camping days.

Once I'm sure I have tested all of this ancient stuff to some degree, I'll head out somewhere, either near the truck or not. Your suggestion to check the weather is no differ than checking your gear. I hope that sort of describes what I am doing. I wouldn't wait until I set up camp to check the weather report - sort of like that.

As I learn the capabilities of the equipment I have, I'll find some of the limits of it also. It'll sort of help me answer the "What determines winter hiking" question on my own. I just hope I can ease into it instead of finding out all at once what it really means. But in a way, that really wouldn't matter either as long as it all works out. Every one helps me see a different side of my questions.

I'm pretty certain winter hiking can be 'defined' from many different aspects. What determines what it is can be another thing. Is it winter because of the weather or time of year? Or because of the equipment used? Or just a frame of mind? Snow can fall at a pretty high temperature. Wet snow is heavier than dry snow. Is it too cold to snow? The subject wasn't to be take as a silly question from a worried beginner, but I seem to convey that idea with my subject lines. The equipment should vary based on all of these things, not just one of them - I see that now and the terminology is just that. Winter or 4-season just means heavier-rated equipment than 3-season to some degree.

Thank you for all of your wisdom and detail and the serious answers you provide. Just shows that getting dirty will kind of provide me the answers and maybe one day I can answer someone else (providing they have the disk space on this list). I get windy, don't I? I'm just throwing back at you what I think you've said to me for verification. Correct me if I missed it.

Steve

Steve, I think you got it. "Winter" is both the weather, and a state of mind.

Steve -

Sounds to me like you're doubting yourself more than your equipment - and you need to build some confidence up in your backcountry skills.

Read "Backpacker" magazine and you'll think you've got to have "ultralight" gear for summer and "dead serious expedition" gear for winter.

Learn to set up your tent - use a groundsheet (either the same size/shape as the footprint of your tent or a bit smaller - no larger - or it'll hold water between the floor of the tent and itself - soaking you from below). You might want to seam-seal the tub and the fly -

Buy yourself a new foam pad - I prefer ensolite or some other non-absorbing material - if it's real cold use two - one atop the other - to increase the barrier thickness between your body and the ground.

Take dry socks and polypro underwear (spare set) just to sleep in - change into it before you go to bed for two reasons. First - the activity (changing your clothes) will get the blood moving and warm you up. Second - your hiking clothes will be damp from the days activity - and you'll be danged cold if you're damp. Still chilly? Pull on a heavy poly-pro or wool balaclava (most of your bodies heat loss is through your head) - and go to be with an empty bladder - STILL cold? Get a cheapo poly-pro blanket - sew it into a rectangular sleeping bag shape - shove your sleeping bag into it -

A high-carbo snack about an hour before you sack in can help keep you warm (sorta stokes the furnace) -

But get away from the truck, the back yard and the Motel 6 -get far enough from the road so you'll HAVE to make it through the night - you'll do fine.

Generations of human beings made it through winter nights without goosedown sleeping bages, North Face expedition tents and thousands of dollars of equipment - the most important thing you can carry in to the woods - any time of the year - is knowledge and that knowledge will breed confidence.

Have fun - and - winter is just a state of mind!

Steve H.

Steve, I don't mean this to sound pretentious or anything like that, and this isn't meant just for you, but after participating in online forums like this one for a while, one of things that has become obvious,to me, anyway,is that people worry way too much about what gear they have or need or think they should have.

Not that you don't need a good pack, bag, stove and so on, but worrying about the brand and whether it's a tiny bit heavier than another one, becomes an end in itself. I do enjoy participating in these forums, but from a practical perspective, much of it is hair-splitting for the simple reason, that at a certain price point, a lot of gear is functionally similar and of similar quality.

I know a lot of it is because we can't always see something in person, so questions about how something works are pretty natural, but sometimes you just have to pick something and stop thinking about all the alternatives.

Unless you are planning an arctic expedition or walking the PCT for a thousand miles, I don't think any of the little stuff people spend so much time obsessing over makes much difference. Sometimes I buy one thing over another just because I like the color better, or it feels better, or just because I want it.

Some of my gear is fairly old by backpacking standards. It is in great shape because I don't get out that much, but kind of old school. It doesn't matter that much. I may have said this here before, but when I was in NZ in the mid 80's, I saw plenty of hikers with canvas packs, full leather boots, wool pants and shirts, oilskin raingear,old Primus stoves and no worries about whether their gear was the latest and greatest. I'm sure many of them would have loved to have a Goretex jacket and all that, but having old style gear didn't stop them from going everywhere in the place in all kinds of weather.

It's kind of like, if no one tells you, you should be unhappy with what you have, you won't be.

Tom,

That's exactly where I am at right now. I mentioned the old stuff I have and will use it, naming brands, to sort of say what you are saying. I have always taken very good care of what I have. The only reason I purchased a new tent was to replace my 35 year old one as I wasn't sure if it was useable, and also whether it was sufficient for winter hikes, since that is what is approaching. Hence this thread's subject. I will use what I have until I find it isn't OK to use, for what ever reason. Most of everything else I purchased, I didn't have, and needed, so if I could buy better equipment, why not?

One of the things a newbie like me has to hear loud and clear from this list is that this stuff is serious business. A body can get hurt out there or worse, either from accidents or equipment that isn't suitable. Being prepared helps remove some of threat, so asking about things is helping me become prepared. I may not use the information I receive on gear as a testimonial to buy, but at least I will consider it and when deciding what to buy, use the reasoning for why it was recommended or not. And also use it to judge whether what I have is OK.

So we are on the same page here. I realize my first impression I left here was one of a worried rookie, but I hope I change that impression soon. Anyway, I have to admit I was a little worried, as the old doomsday threads were the ones I read first.

Another thing that a newbie hears is that you should just get out there and do it, which is sort of a contradiction to the above paragraph. So I take both advisements with a grain of salt, and hope I'm sharp enough to make an intelligent decision for myself as to going and what to take, etc.

Since you can't see my face, much like I can't see Bill's poker face, I hope people would tell you I am one of the most caring, kindest people they have met. I am more concerned about offending people with my replies than you could ever imagine, and I'm sure some of them come off as being pretty abrupt or rude. Believe me, I never mean them to be.

I am always grateful for whatever people have to offer here.

Thanks

Steve

Hello I find nothing more fun than taken new hikers out in the woods and herring of new hikers. I started hiking 5 - 6 years ago with little know how. I just used commonsense and had no problem on overnight trips even many day trips. The best thing I can tell you is to just get out of the back yard never did I do anything like that just go out in the woods. The way I learned the most was out in the field. Every time I go even still today I learn new things or realize things I need or could use to make my trip easer. I hike in the Smoky Mountains every weekend this time of year, try to do an overnight every weekend. I have woke up in 8 inches of snow and single digit tempters in late November being unprepared for it and 2 days from my ride and im still here taken about it. U will learn how to deal with many situations I have begun to look forward to dealing with out of the ordinary situations so I can figure out the way to deal with it. The only way your going to learn “ the way “ Is to pack that bag and go for it. Hope You get out this year and try that new equipment try a small trip to build up your confidence. Before u know it u wont be thinking twice about a chance of a night it the woods good luck and happy hiking.

Norm said "Every time I go even still today I learn new things or realize things I need or could use to make my trip easer. "

A very wise comment, Norm, and the absolutely correct attitude. My parents started taking me into the woods and hills (and desert, since we lived in the middle of the Arizona desert) before I was 6 (months, that is - there are pictures of me on horseback with my mother at what looks to be 6 months old). After more than 6 and a half decades, I still learn something new or am reminded of something I should have remembered every single trip.

As a wise person once said, "the day you do not learn something new is the day you should turn yourself into the nearest mortuary."

let's face it - you're far safer in the woods - away from large populations of humans - than when you're in their midst in "civilization".

Just to restate why I did it -

I set up in the backyard to check out the equipment, not as a means to "camp". I feel this is something prudent to do before taking off anywhere with older equipment or equipment that has been put away for a while, especially for older equipment such as the tent and sleeping bag I was checking out.

My itchings are to get out away from everything, and even though my back yard is 3 acres, it still doesn't separate me from civilized neighbors.

I just felt it to be the proper thing to do since I couldn't get away that particular evening. As soon as I decide on a trail, I'm outta here.

But thanks for the insights.

Blackbeard

it is the proper thing to do. Nothing wrong with gaining some trust in your equipment.

I would also recommend doing some waterproofing testing. Set up your tent and turn a watersprinkler on it for a few hours.

As has been said, it is both weather and state of mind. I have slept out in both tents in the snow and under a "tarp" (actually a poncho) in a snow tunnel. Worked great, of course I had an Army triple bag (goretex w/ inner and outer bags), so I was able to adjust to the need. We did run around during the day in just capilene tops and goretex bottoms at about 8,500 feet and temps in the 20's-low 30's. If you can find some military tech manuals on Mountain Warfare and Cold Weather Operations, you will find some very handy info on handling cold weather hiking. I retired from the military and have survived the "coldest winter since WWII" in a tent during Reforger and a tour of duty in a tent in winter in Bosnia. The military finally is using off the shelf civilian gear as well as some of its own designs in "fighting" the elements, after all our mission is not to lose to Mother Nature, but to assist our enemies in finding a permanent slumber.
I do commend you on the testing of gear. I tried out a three season bag up in the Sierra Nevada range during one winter and found that it was in fact a three season bag and winter was not one of the seasons. Needless to say I was back in the cabin and my friends were having a good laugh. The "tarp" experience was part our training in the military where we were able to learn how to use our gear and function in the cold and the mountains. It also gives you an opportunity to have trust in your gear.
So, in summary, get to know your gear and your cpabilities as well as tolerances, and then leave civilization behind and enjoy the beauty and quiet of nature in winter. And remember, civilization isn't so bad, if it weren't for all the people. George
p.s. my wife is chasing me off the computer, and if you go camping in the snow, this doesn't happen...