Bear canisters revisited (please)

After reading forum entries from several years ago, I am curious as to whether anything in the bear canister/bag world has changed much. I mostly hike in the Laurel Highlands or Allegheny National Forest areas in western PA and have had minimal contact with bears over the years. I don't really want to spend the money, but one experience of having my food stolen is too many in my book. As I said, it was clear that conflicts arose in the past over what worked/what didn't. . .

sorry. . .message sent before I was finished. Again, has anything changed in the quality of the ursack or do you folks feel the plastic canisters are the way to go? The last post seems to have been in 2002 on this topic. For years I have slept with my food in my backpack which hangs from my hammock rope. We have seen bears more often in the past year or two, so I'm intersted in your opinions based on either first or second-hand experience. Thanks.

Todd

I am in Alaska & have a Bear Vault Solo which I use in heavy brown bear area. Recently, I just got a Ursack & love it's light weight and the fact I don't have to hang my food bag. Check out a Ursack. One model is on sale at ursack.com.

Try the Bearikade by Wild Ideas- lighter than others, easy to get into (for humans!!) Been using 'em in the Sierra for years, they are the best. Pricey but worth it if your out alot. They come in different sizes, too, and I believe you can have them custom make a size.

Todd - the only time I lost food to a bear while hiking was when I was so tired (lazy) at the end of a long day that I failed to hang my food bag correctly - that was in North Central PA (and left me with a rather hungry walk out!) - but I've never felt the need to do more than dangle my stuff sack full of food from a tree.
If I was dealing with brown bears (larger, somewhat more dangerous) in an area where finding a tree to hang the food bag from was unlikely then I'd go for a hard container - but for the woods of PA I think it's a bit overkill.

If the canisters or ursack are overkill for PA, do you think buying the odor-resistant plastic bags from Ursack would be helpful? Ursack website says: "These patented bags provide 17,000 times more odor resistance than high density polyethlyene." My question is based on my desire to get my wife out on the trail more. . .a bit more security would probably double her trips. I could save the money on the container and just use the Ursack ziplocks as a liner to a regular bag and hang it overnight. By the way Folkie, were you anywhere near the Sesquahannock Trail when you had your food stolen? We were there last summer; a black bear walked past our campsite in the early morning. . . It took off as soon as it saw us. Tabatha took it much better than I thought, but it planted the "what about bears" seed in her mind. . . Everyone, thanks for the advice.

I was on the tuscarrorra trail when I lost my food. Sunday before last I was about 40 yds from a sow and her cub - I happen to like bears. In the San Juan mountains (southern Col.) I ran into what the locals called kamakazie bears - you'd hang your food from a line strung between two trees - they'd climb above the rope and leap out at the bag - trying to claw it on their way down - it was interesting to watch (and a great reason to NOT camp under a bear bag!).
You have to look at what's going to attract bears to your campsite - and it's the smell of food - the uncooked food that you're hanging from a tree is really secondary - it's the dishwater or uneaten food that gets tossed into the weeds that really brings 'em around. If using a scent proof liner bag eases your partners mind and gets 'em into the woods more often - go for it. It may just be psychological - but what the heck! Attacks by black bears are danged rare (unless you try to mess with a cub OR get in between a sow and a cub) -
The best defense, however (in my opinion) is to keep a clean campsite - dispose of uneaten food correctly - and hang your cook kit along with the food bag (which can also alert you to rodents messing with your food - nothing like opening a food bag to see a terrified chipmunk looking up at you to make for a memorable morning!).
Years ago I was backpacking with two of my kids (my son was probably 12 at the time, his sister 9) - they were in a tent - I was under a tarp. Apparently nature called - my son looked out the back window of the tent - saw a bear wandering around - and decided that he could hold it until morning ... he timed it to perfection - telling me just as I'd taken a mouthful of oatmeal - that was in Caledonia - right along the AT - where there is a LOT of human traffic - I'm sure that bear had gotten some tasty treats over the years ...

The only thing that has really changed in the past few years on bear containers is that there are more companies making them these days.

First thing, as hinted at by some of the posts, is that what works depends on what part of the world you are in. For example, in much of the Eastern US, you can get along just fine by simply putting the food in a bag of some type (your pack, for example), hauling it up with some parachute cord tossed over a limb 15 feet up or so, and tying it off to the tree trunk. Try that in the Sierra, and you will have no food or pack in 3 to 4 hours, with a couple more bears prowling around wondering where it went.

The Ursack works in some areas, but is not approved for use in Yosemite or Inyo National Forest (they check when you are getting your permit, as well as warning you when you make your reservation 6 months in advance - try for the reservation less than 6 months in advance and there are none left except walk-ins, for which there is always a line). Those locations require portable canister from a small group that have passed a test (Sacramento zoo has some of the exiled bears, and they put the containers in the enclosure with them to see if the container survives). Yosemite accepts the Bear Vault, but Inyo NF has had several incidents in which the bears managed to get into Bear Vaults. Bear Vaults are not recommended for grizzly country, according to the company, but are ok for black bears (except Inyo NF). UrSacks have not survived the "Yosemite University for Bears" tests, even in the latest version, according to the rangers at the Yosemite Backcountry Office.

The only 2 backpackable containers that are accepted for all US and Canadian venues are the Garcia and BearIKade. They are heavier than the Bear Vault or some of the other canister type, or the UrSack.

Best thing is to contact the rangers or land managers for the area you are going to spend most of your time in for the next few years to see what works there. If, like much of the Rockies in Colorado and New Mexico, you can get along with just a bag and some parachute cord or counterbalancing, then save your money. Or, as in Yosemite, if you can just rent the container or only have to come up with a refundable deposit, again save your money. But if you are going to Denali NP, you may have to spring for a BearIKade.

I suppose those of us in the East are lucky - here the bears only look at what we carry as potential food sources (unless we do something really stupid to provoke them) - with some grizzly and polar bear populations WE are potential food sources as well!

Other things to consider - deoderant, after shave, perfume, scented soaps and shampoo - are all no-no's in bear country - (I don't understand why anyone would drag them into the backcountry BUT I seem to meet up with people who do on a fairly regular basis ....) -

Bill, Bear Vault does recommend their canisters for brown bears & we use them in Alaska for our big, bad brown bears. Often one of theBV people will pop onto boards like this when their product is mentioned to clarify. The lid error on the Bear Vault has be rectified; however, most of the break -ins seem to implicate human error in not closing the lid properly.

cat -
My Bear Vault's shipping box says black bears and not griz. As of a couple years ago (last time I was there) Denali NP was not accepting the Bear Vault for backcountry. Maybe they have changed. But Inyo NF does not accept them for backcountry (black bears, no griz since the 1920s), and the rangers told a friend (prof guide) who lives in Bishop (boundary of Inyo NF) that the problems were with containers that were properly closed (at least claimed so by the hikers who lost their food). The failure mode was breakage of the container, not lid removal. Not having talked to the rangers myself, I don't know the details. My Bear Vault, by the way, is a 2nd generation, and I have had no problem with the lid. The 1st generation was the one that had problems, AFAIK. But I see that there is a 3rd (maybe 4th?) iteration on the lid design in the stores these days.

But no matter what our personal experiences and biases are and no matter what the claims of the manufacturers, it all depends on the bureaucrats and land managers for what they require or allow us to do for protecting our food. If they say "ok", then we can take whatever. If they say "no", then we have to do something else. And, as backpackers find out every week in the summer, if the varmints get the food, you have a problem, and around here at least, maybe a hefty fine as well (somehow seems unfair - lose your food 2 days out because the PhD bears figured out the system that was "approved", and it still costs you a bunch of bucks in addition).

Actually, Bill, the Bear Vault is what the Park Service rented to us in the Brooks Range. We carried two each during the trip. It was horrible! The lack of trees was the determining factor for us to leave our bear bags and rent the vaults. It had the big flat head screw-type opening; wasn't that hard to open. Once in the lower 48, I don't plan on using them anymore...

Bill wrote: "somehow seems unfair - lose your food 2 days out because the PhD bears figured out the system that was "approved", and it still costs you a bunch of bucks in addition" -

You get fined if the bears take your food? Sorry - but that looks like the government will take any opportunity to impose a tax! I'm curious, if the bears wreck your tent and kill your partner does the liability (fine) increase?

When I lost my food all I got was hungry - for once an advantage of hiking in Pennsylvania!

PhD bears .... I just got this mental image of a bear, wearing a crimson robe with a gold sash and some braid participating in a graduation ceremony. Orals for a griz must be tough (it was bad enough as a human!).

I have been researching this issue for the past couple weeks. I do overnighters in the Sierra's near Tahoe and have always hung my food (tied off at the tree rather than counterbalanced) without incident. However, I like the idea of having a camp stool and dish washing basin on hand (as well as a way to more easily carry water to extinguish the occasional campfire. I just haven't been able to justify the weight of carrying a cannister.

If I do cave in and go to a cannister, I am leaning toward the Bear Vault. Despite earlier failures (described in detail on their web site), the current models are black bear approved by the SIBBG and Grizzly approved by the IGBC. I really like the clear cannister, and easy to open wide-mouth design. You can get more details on their approvals and see a side by side comparison with the Garcia here: http://www.bearvault.com/bearvault_details.php

I believe that the URsacks have provisional approval in most areas and are being re-tested this summer with a lightweight aluminum insert. There was also a lot of helpful information at their blog: http://ursack.blogspot.com/

"It had the big flat head screw-type opening; wasn't that hard to open."

If I read your post right, that doesn't sound like a Bear Vault-they look like a big blue pill bottle-I have one. What you had may have been a Garcia Machine or Bearikade bear canister-both of those use similar big flat screw type fasteners on the lid. The whole BV lid screws on and off-like the lid on a jar.

Here's the official site for the SIBBG and the list of approved canisters-
http://www.sierrawildbear.gov/foodstorage/approvedcontainers.htm

For Grizzlies in parts of the lower 48, there is another site-
http://www.fs.fed.us/r1/flathead/wildlife/grizzly_bears_index.shtml

The approved canister list (the Garcia canister is on it, plus some panniers)-
http://www.fs.fed.us/r1/wildlife/igbc/Safety/resistantcontainer.pdf

It's interesting to compare the different websites that people have given. One thing not mentioned on the Ursack blog is that one of the problems with the Ursack (without the aluminum insert) is, being flexible, the bears can (and do in tests) mush the bag around, which breaks the containers inside in many cases - think of a mixture of suncream, pancake mix, trail mix, and freezedry turkey tetrazini. In case of liquids in containers that get damaged by the bear batting the bag around and stomping on it (which happens in the tests), the liquified mix leaks out, allowing the bear to get a taste. Even if there is no leakage, the contents in a lot of the tests were mixed to a non-usable state.

In the comparison table of the Bear Vault and Garcia, I found it interesting that they (Bear Vault) considered the opening of the Garcia to not be "wide". The Garcia has a bit more of a lip that overhangs (5 inch diameter opening vs 6 inch for the BearVault), but I have never found it to be a problem when putting in items that I could pack in fairly compactly. Some odd-shaped rigid items, yes, but not most of what I take. Re-packaging to reduce weight of containers and waste to pack out seems to solve a lot of the odd-shaped container problem. The Bear Vaults are certainly lighter for the carrying capacity than the Garcia, but the BearIKade is lighter still for carrying volume.

Interesting that the Grizzly page included the Garcia and the hard-sided panniers for horse packers, but not the Bear Vault or BearIKade in their "suggested" list. They did have a "this is not a recommendation" disclaimer, though, and did mention the IGBC.

Dan, I agree with Tom D. What you describe is not the Bear Vault, but probably the Garcia (which I know the NPS rents in Alaska parks), or possibly the BearIKade. If it was black, it was the Garcia. If it was aluminum, it was the BearIKade. The Bear Vault, as several have noted has a transparent blue body with a large, black lid (screw-off the whole lid for most models).

I noticed on the SIBBG that there is a Bear Vault exchange program somehow connected with Rae Lakes area (where they state that "one or possibly more" bears have learned to open the earlier Bear Vaults - which means the one I have!). Wonder if I can exchange mine, even though I don't plan to go the the Rae Lakes area in the near future????

Hi Bill... interesting! My bear vault solo box does say grizzly approved as does their website:
http://www.bearvault.com/

It fascinates me - how bears and other animals at or near the top of the food chain have figured out that humans are a source of food - in fact we're like portable super markets ...
So resulting from decades of careless food storage and handling we're now forced to encase our food supplies in bear proof containers (well, bear resistant at least). How quickly they learn to thwart our efforts to protect "our" food is an example to me of just how smart these animals are -
Question for you folks who hike where the bears are big - do you place your food wrappers and empty food containers (plastic bags, whatever) in your bear-resistant containers as well? I know mine goes into my hanging bear bag - I've run into people who (probably without thinking) kept their trash in their backpack - in their tent. Perhaps being a "tarp guy" I'm more cautious (no barrier for the little critters). Also - if you're LNT - where do you pack your poop paper so it doesn't attract critters (mine hangs, but NOT in the food sack!).

cat -
I was noting the discrepancies among the different websites regarding which bear containers were and were not approved for which type of bears, and also from area to area and sometimes from one ranger/land manager to another at the same check-in station. What it comes down to is, as I posted earlier, better call or otherwise contact the rangers before you get there (and maybe get the answer in writing so you can show it to the on-site person, who maybe has a different idea).

Steve -
I place my "smellable" trash in the container. As I learned the hard way (with a marmot, not a bear), if you aren't actually cooking or eating it (or using other smellables), put it back into the container and close or hoist it. As for the human waste question, I hadn't really thought about it, but haven't had a problem. Many areas I go to now require packing out all human waste (in Antarctica, that included the liquid, at least around the base camps, dumped from your pee bottle into expended fuel drums that are flown back to South America and dumped into the sewage treatment plant). In areas that allow using catholes (the paper is, of course, double bagged and packed out), which are always at least 200 feet from the camp, trail, and water, I have not seen evidence of critters digging them up when dug to the proper depth and covered properly (people who are not familiar with LNT principles should go to http://www.lnt.org and read thoroughly). But where people have buried the paper in their ignorance of LNT, the reappearance of "Charmin lilies" is not uncommon.

As for the sanitation aspect, though, using double zip-lock bags should be sufficient for the used paper to prevent the smell from attracting the critters. If you have packed the food in individual smell-"proof" containers and placed it all in a larger plastic bag, then put the "paper" bag outside the food bag, this should provide sufficient separation and barrier. WAG bags and similar products are multi-layer, so they should be adequate. Be sure, of course, to use Purell or other sanitizer when handling the human waste containers/bags.

Tom, Bill, you were right. It wasn't the Bear Vault. It was the Backpacker's Cache they rented. I'm not sure how they rate and don't care anymore as I didn't have an incident then and am moving to the lower 48 soon. ...back to annoying black bears.

Dan, I think the Garcia Backpacker's Cache is one of the original bear canisters. I bought one at REI, then traded it in for the Bear Vault. I never used it. I've only taken the BV once to Yosemite and that was in winter and I've never seen a bear there anyway.

Bill-Here's how you get your canister for Rae's Lake-
http://www.bearvault.com/bearvault_productnotices.php

I'm pretty sure REI will trade them for the new ones if you got yours there. I assume BV will do a direct exchange as well, but that would involve shipping it to them.

The Bearikades are supposed to be good-someone on another site I post on bought one, but they cost about $250 or about 3 times the cost of a BV. I don't do enough camping to justify one. Garcias can be rented in Yosemite for $5 for up to two weeks.
http://www.nps.gov/archive/yose/wilderness/bfoodstorage.htm

Tom -
If I go into the Sierra for more than 3 days, I will borrow a BearIKade from a friend who bought one when he and his family did the JMT. Although he was willing to spring for one for the one trip (he is still working at a SiliValley salary), they also took two Garcias (borrowed mine), so carried one container each (still re-supplied at Reds Meadows and the two locations further south, plus carrying a light load from YosValley to Tuolumne to pick up more food there). Originally, I was supposed to meet them near Kearsarge for the last leg of resupply, but they decided to just carry a bigger load and eat light for the last section to Whitney Portal (that's the longest section in number of days).

The Bear Vault exchange is only for Rae Lakes backcountry permit holders this summer until the limited supply runs out, according to Bear Vault's web site. I will see what REI says.

Yep, it sure is confusing. When I went into Denali,there was a ranger with a Bear Vault. However, Denali gives out Garcias, which are so huge for one person. We just get Garcias in Denali & share. Truly a bear barrel.

I use the Bear Vault in Denali NP, since I can cram 1 week's food into my solo. The Bear Vault is also great for long weekends with friends where we can all put our food into the solo when we get to camp.

However, we also use Ursacks all over Alaska.

Luckily, our AK Bears haven't become habituated on the Kenai, the Chugach, & Denali like it sounds they have outside. It's only a matter of time, tho...

Bill, I think I asked REI about it a while back and they had the new ones. I just haven't gotten around to going down there.

cat -
Hopefully, with the education and bear management practices in Alaska, the bears will not become habituated. And as part of that, hopefully, the Timothy's of this world will remain rare (Barb and I spent some time photographing the brown bears in Katmai within 30 miles of where he and his girlfriend were eaten, though we didn't find that out until a couple days after we came out).

In areas where good habits have been practiced, the bears have not become habituated and simple bear bagging works just fine. One of these in Philmont Scout Ranch, which runs thousands of boys through the backcountry each summer. The first couple of days of each trek are accompanied by a ranger, who does a lot of education, including demonstrations, and warnings. Most of the Northeastern US also seems ok. It's mostly places like Yosemite, Yellowstone, and Glacier NP where tourists have been careless for decades and they even had rangers putting out food for years to attract the bears for tourists to see. I saw a program not long ago on how some of the northern Canadian and Alaskan communities have had problems with polar bears in their garbage dumps and are now taking steps to de-habituate the bears. OTOH, I read that polar bears will actually stalk humans, unlike unhabituated brown/grizzly and black bears. From experience, I do know that our local black bears are usually pretty shy of humans. This even includes the "burglar bears" that have been breaking into cabins in the Lake Tahoe area the past few years and raiding refrigerators (yes, they actually look through the kitchen window to spot the fridge, break through the door, and go straight for the fridge). But if they encounter a human, they usually run off, though some have been reported to ignore the human yelling at them and keep on eating. The reports are that they are picky eaters, going only for certain foods.

I've come up with the pretty good solution. Instead of an aluminum insert, lets get Ursack to custom fit for the cannister of your choice (Bear Vault for me). No smashed food, no hanging, no hunting down your cannister that has been battered around. And if they could just get their combined weight down to about 12 ounces, we'd have the perfect product!

"OTOH, I read that polar bears will actually stalk humans, unlike unhabituated brown/grizzly and black bears."

I've only seen polar bears in a zoo, so no claims of being an expert. But, from the documentaries I've seen-including stories about problems with them in far north villages-it appears that they know they are at the top of the food chain and every other animal, people included, looks like food to them. That's why they are so dangerous-they are huge and not afraid of you. I guess gunfire or loud noises will scare them off, but not much else.

I received this message from Denali NP:

"If your bear vault is model #BV250 Solo, then yes, that one is approved for
use in Denali National Park. Thank you for inquiring."

Good news for me since I hate to lug their huge Garcia & love my BV Solo.

I used an Ursack on a backpacking trip in the Sierras, along with a hard cannister. Packing the cannister is a pita, but when a hungry, stubborn black bear came into our area he ignored it--my guess was that he'd tried to break into others w/o success, and learned not to bother.

But he went after the Ursack big time. He didn't tear it apart, but punctured the sack in a couple of places, and crushed things so badly that between bear drool and damage to the food, most of its contents were useless.

When we got to the trailhead trash dump I tossed it. I'd never use another one.

My $.02

bernmart,
Your experience with the Ursack is exactly why they are not accepted in Yosemite and Inyo NF. Thanks for telling us your first-hand experience. Clearly, the extra weight of the canisters is worth it, especially if you are 2 days hike from the nearest trailhead, as happened to my brother-in-law twice, once with each of his sons (9 and 11 at the time of each incident, not a good experience for a kid to have to hike out for 2 days without food).

GLAD I read to the end as I also bought the Ursack when they first came out (5yrs ago?) and the bear didn't get the contents but what was left wasn't worth carrying. Since then have used both the Garcia Machine and Bear Vault with no attacks. Prefer the BV simply because it is lighter than GM and can see contents, and makes a great camp stool. Both are difficult to hang on the outside of the pack. The BIG caveat on the BV is that if you don't screw the lid on properly and use it as a seat, it will jam and is damn near impossible to open again without the help of two strong men and an elephant! I have rented (far better than buying it at $195-$275ea, and they arrange it all for you) and used the Bearikade and liked it a LOT for carrying more food for a couple of folks, no threads to jam, and it is a very stable camp stool...perfect height for the camp kitchen with the stove on the ground! All of these experiences are in the California Sierra.

jerthebehr -
I don't know what model of Bear Vault you have, but there have been several revisions, all dealing with the lid. The early ones had a slip-ring insert that had a lot of problems. The next version (which I have) had a "quick move" bump that would prevent the lid from opening casually, but if you rotated the lid quickly, would slip past to open. The next version was a "press here" on the side of the lid to push the dimple in slightly to open more easily. The current version is very similar, but has a larger (height) lid that offers a better grip. The current version of the larger size also has grooves that grip a couple straps better for tying onto your pack. The newest lid overcomes a problem that allowed bears in the Rae Lakes area to open the container.

If you are having problems with the lid jamming when you use it as a seat, I suspect you have an earlier model, likely the one I have.

I have version 2, and despite the "dimples" the straps do not stay in place when placed on the outside of the pack. I have tried vertical as well as horizontal.

REI makes a small pack URL-1, I believe that lacks about 1/4 to 1/2" of circumpherence to fit the BV. A good seamstress could remedy that, and I am considering purchasing one to modify, and also to use as a day pack.

Despite the "corrigations" on the newest models, the BV material is too slick to allow good strap adhesion...espcially if one is using a good flexible internal loader. Until I get the light weight pack from REI modified, I will use my larger internal frame and put the BV inside. My wife suggested using velcro, but my experience is that anything that attaches to plastic with adhesive (the opposite side of the velcro) will immediatly gather dirt, and ultimately react with the plastic and no longer "stick".

I just tried out a new entry into the bear canister world. (Bare Boxer) It's small and fit into my backpack very nicely. It seems lighter than anything else out there. And it held enough food for me for the three day weekend (Memorial Day). Best of all, I paid only $40 for it. (I followed the link from the forest service bear canister site and found it at bareboxer.com.

It seems to hold a little less than half as much as the big canisters, but then I never filled the big ones up on a weekend trip anyway. On the down side, the opening is a little tight for getting food in and out. It also took a little figuring out to get the hang of the locking mechanism (but the locks are bomb proof). It turns out that any key will work. But all in all, it's a vast improvement over anything else for a day trip or a short two or three days out. It must be new because I hadn't seen it a few months ago. Has anybody else tried out the Bare Boxer.

Looks to me like a Garcia copycat with one additional locking mechanism.

It's hard to tell from the single photo on the website, but it does appear to be a copy of the Garcia current version, except smaller. The weight and dimensions appear to be about half the Garcia, and, as Dave notes, there are 3 locks rather than the 2 on the Garcia. The photo shows only the top of the lid, so I can't tell if the lock is a copy of the Garcia as well. The lid certainly looks the same, with the little lip to "hinge" it on and off. I wonder if they licensed the design from Garcia. The cost is about 2/3 what the Garcia sells for, or within a couple bucks what the Garcia is sometimes on sale for. I wouldn't say it is a "vast improvement" though. But for weekend trips for 1 or 2 people, the size with the reduced weight is probably more practical.

The current Garcia design is their second version, in terms of shape. The first version came in two sizes - the smaller one about the size of the current one and a larger "expedition" size which held about as much as the large BearIKade. Garcia did not sell very many of the large size, so he dropped it after 4 or 5 years, about the time he was switching to the present design.

Bears really stink, but what is of course slightly worse is, in parts of the West Coast mountains and also NY's Adirondacks and probably a few other spots, rangers can kick you out unless you've got the cans.

I rented can once, and have never hung food, despite seeing a few destroyed pack remnants passing through most popular Adirondak backcountry camping area (I stayed on the far edges); watching mid-70s maurading black bears trip over my tarp lines in Jasper Alberta "hippie" LSD campground, and possibly getting minor food/garbage cache completely snitched by bear or other animal in San Juans (Colorado) in 90s.

My "worst" bear experience by far has been dealing with girlfriend's extreme fear of black bears.

These new cans, are they government-approved?

Aw man, bears don't "stink" - they're cool - the world would be poorer if there were not bears. One of the finest experiences I've had outdoors in the past few years was a couple months back being within 20 yards of a black bear sow and her cub - just watching the cub frolic around -

I've had bears in camp - I've lost food to bears (and had a rather hunger filled couple day hike back to the car as a result) - but I look at it this way - the bears were there first - I'm on their turf - so I modify my behavior to accomodate them ('cause if they get identified as being "problems" the consequences are far worse (displacement, relocation, death) than if I'm identified as a problem (kicked out of park)).

A neat campsite and proper technique (hanging food, proper disposal of waste, perhaps a portable electric fence (polar bears) allow the bears and us human types to coexist -

Let me put it this way - I've never met a bear that pissed me off enough for me to want to shoot it out of retribution - I can't say the same thing about people.

Things in Jasper National Park are much better now, I worked for the AFS just at the eastern gate in the mountains above Entrance, AB. Much improved management techniques has resulted in far fewer bear problems, although there was one fatality about two years ago, a typical "bliss-ninny" hippie chick; as usual, an urbanite who knew it all about nature and wouldn't listen to local professionals, ergo, CHOMP!!! The bear was shot as per Parks Canada policy.

I totally agree with STF's last two sentences, I love bears and never kill one unless absolutely necessary, which it VERY seldom is. Bears are so neat that words are inadequate to describe them, only Rottweilers are equal.

I spent a very enjoyable evening in the high peaks region of the adirondacks a few years ago watching a bear try to figure out how to get my bear bag down from between the trees. After about 15 minutes a second bear wandered over - she tried a couple things she'd apparently figured out over the years as well (yanking on my white "decoy" tie down cord) - I'd spent my day bagging boundary, marcy and another peak the name of which I cannot recall right now - I was bone freakin tired - and it was like watching Laurel and Hardy - I just sat back nice and quiet - eventually they left -

the point is that they're quite smart and very able to learn from experience, so it only takes one or two slobs to turn a "good" bear into a "problem" bear.

As I tend to like most bears more than I like most people, be nice to 'em - keep your food and all out of reach - don't get 'em comfortable with you as a food source (either what you carry or your body (chomp!)) - and spend some time watching the other animals you spend time with in the woods.

Much like 1% bikers, they're not dangerous unless provoked -in fact most of 'em just want to live their own lives and not be pestered by the rest of us.

I won't say they "deserve" it - however - I will say that most people who have bad experiences with bears or other wild animals bring it upon themselves. I know there are some rogue animals out there - but I'd be willing to be that in the past some other human has done something to piss 'em off - and we probably all look alike to a bear. But most people get in trouble when they screw up - when they try to get a picture of that "cute cub" or when they're sloppy in camp with food or garbage, or they surprise an animal or seem to threaten it - and what do they expect the bear to do - run away? Heck - you're in the bears territory - not yours - play by their rules -enjoy their company and be richer for the experience.

Steve

Steve, can you give a quick refresher on how to keep a clean site? (I hike in the Northeast.)

Sabino -

Keeping a clean campsite is the same as keeping a clean house or appartment - garbage gets packed away - not tossed on the floor, dishwater gets disposed of correctly (well dispersed after you've filtered the garbage out - not tossed on the floor)- uneaten food is garbage - not fertilizer (you wouldn't toss those uneaten french fries on the floor, right?) -

Instead of a 'fridge or pantry you have your bear bag and some parachute cord to hang your food bag well out of reach of bears and other critters - be sure to seal the top - finding an irritated chipmunk in your food bag while digging around for breakfast isn't one of lifes great adventures - and having half your food packages gnawed open is pretty stinko as well.

I hang my cook pots and utensiles as well - some may consider that to be a bit nutty BUT the noise the pots make banging together when someone (bear, chipmunk, whatever) is trying to get at your food alerts you to what's going on and tends to persuade the intruder to abandon (most animals don't like unfamiliar noises)

An obvious exception is that you don't sweep up or vacuum a campsite ;=) - but when you leave there should be no trace of your having been there - except for some matted down grass and the holes from your tent pegs -

Leave No Trace http://www.LNT.org does a great job of describing how to, well, leave no trace!

http://www.LNT.org - one note about leave no trace - if you work with a youth group (like the GSA, BSA or church youth groups that have outdoor activites) - contact LNT - they have a wealth of educational materials available at no or very low cost to help teach kids about treating the wild with respect - one of "my" scouts - now in the military - tells me he still keeps his LNT laminated card clipped to his ALICE pack (he's currently on his second tour in Iraq)

Steve -
Slight correction (or else my friend Esther will chew me out!). It is NOT GSA, it is GSUSA, as in "Girl Scouts in the USA". Every time I make the mistake of saying something like "Girl and Boy Scouts", or "GSA", she skewers me with a gimlet eye and bites my head off (Lord help me if I slip and say "Boy and Girl Scouts!). Esther is a nice lady, usually, and she does get her GSUSA troop out orienteering, backpacking, and other outdoor activities, unlike a lot of GSUSA troops. So I gotta be nice to her. Besides, GSA is the acronym for a certain US Government agency that does the buying of supplies for the government.

Bill - thanks for letting me know - don't want to piss off Esther (or my wife, Deb, who's a GSUSA (whew!) leader!) - last thing I need is two (additional) women mad at me (I'd rather have a pissed off bear complaining about my food!)

Steve

I just ordered an Ursack because it fits my needs for what I do here in PA. . . A backpacking partner already offered to buy it from me if I don like it or don't value its use on the trail. A win-win situation. . .unless it fails me on the trail. Only time will tell, I suppose. . .

Bears are not normally at fault in the problem encounters with people. Last year a guy was driving just outside the Smokies and he saw a bear. He stopped to get a picture - got out of his car and approached the bear. It was a sow with cubs. And then the guy's little dog jumped out of the car and ran at the bear. The bear promptly pinned the dog. The guy then attempted to free his dog. The bear took a swipe, and then took off. The guy was hurt, but it was minor. The powers that be, in their infinite wisdom, decided the bear had to be shot, which they did after hunting it down with dogs. My vote would have been to shoot the stupid guy.

I do pretty much all of my backpacking in the Sierras, so I have gotten used to the idea of carrying the regular canisters. I will trust them much more than any type of food hanging, the bears have learned how to get hung food in many areas. And in one location it appears that they even learned how to open the old style of Bear Vault canisters. The only time I have seen food loss with canisters was when some of my scouts left their canisters unlocked (for some reason they thought that the bears wouldn't come out in the rain, and didn't bother to close their canisters at night).

A warning to Ursack users - even if the bear can't actually get your food, the Ursack does not protect the food from being all mashed up by the bear chewing on the bag. So you may still have food, but it might be a mash of everything in the bag.

Chumango - in Davis West Virginia I once watched (with considerable glee) as a guy ran across the campground parking lot chasing a bear who'd take a steak from the fellas freezer chest.
This guy looked and sounded like "Larry the cable guy" - runnin' after a bear yellin "hey - git back here with mah steak!" - it took a bit but I convinced my winded friend that the steak now belonged to the bear - and that it would be unwise to attempt to recover it.
But that memory will forever be with me - of a redneck chasin a bear with a nice looking hunk of steak in its mouth .... ;=)

Steve - ROTFL!!! Reminds me of a whole series of cartoons by one of my favorite cartoonists on bears. When I was about 7 or 8, our family did the traditional Great Western National Parks tour. I have a vivid memory of a guy in a "bear jam" in Yellowstone trying to push a bear into the driver's seat of his car so he could get a photo. For years, people told me I must have imagined that, but when we took our son on the traditional tour, I asked a ranger about that, and he pointed out a photo in the ranger office that showed exactly that. Somehow, folks don't quite get it - the big furry guys were here first. It's their home, and they are bigger plus stronger, not only total strength, but strength per pound than we are. If you are so dumb as to let the bear (or raccoon, or marmot, or whatever) get your food, it's theirs. I agree with Chumango - shoot the idiot who let the bear get the food, not the bear.

No need for shooting, except through archery.

A guy who would push a bear into a car has to rank up there with the dumbest people on Earth. . .and I would pay a great deal of $ to watch a redneck chase a bear over a steak. . .

Even for those of you who are not into the Ursack method, this company, Watchful Eye Designs, has something (the "OP Sak" is what I bought)to offer anyone taking grub into the woods. . . 17,000 times more odor resistant than a typical ziplock. They are fairly cheap, and I have used them in a plain ol' canvas sack before. . .properly hung up the the trees. I plan on using these bags in conjunction with the Ursack. Check this site out for a product to minimize a bear encounter over food:

http://www.watchfuleyedesigns.com/

Karman -
There are several other companies that make bags similar to the Watchful Eye Designs Opsak and Aloksak, and about the same price. I don't consider them cheap by a long shot, but indeed they seem to be quite odorproof. By the way, although it hasn't been mentioned in the last few threads on bear containers, most of the companies do recommend using odor-proof liner bags in their containers. It reduces the attraction to the critters and potentially the bear batting the container around and losing it in the brush. I know a couple people who lost containers when a bear played with them and they rolled down a slope into a stream (they luckily spotted the container in the stream the next morning).

I was told this weekend that there is a program that occasionally re-runs on the History Channel (or maybe Discovery or one of the other cable channels) about the national parks that has film of people in Yellowstone and Yosemite feeding bears and doing the bear in the driver seat kind of thing. So you might be able to watch at least a film for free (well, ok, you have to pay your cable subscription).

Bill,
I am going to check “YouTube” for some “stupid human tricks” regarding bears. . . I'm sure something will come up. The odor-proof liners really make sense, regardless of whether it's with a canister or the Ursack bag. Actually, I just got it in the mail, and it seems like it will my PA needs. . .it's probably up for a some target practice too. Jeez. I'll put it to use in a couple weeks on the Quehanna Trail System where bears are seen often. . .apparently along with droves of timber rattlers. You are right about the prices on those odor-proof bags, "cheap" is a shady term, I guess. I bought several two gallon bags and one quart bags awhile back. They do the job. . . Thanks.

Todd

Regarding the post about dumping the URSACk because the bear drooled on and smashed all the food inside: the URSACK with aluminum insert prevents this problem. From reading the testimonials on the website it sounds like most people who have encounters find that the food survives ok if a little bruised. How bad is it if your already crushed and dehydrated food gets a little more mangled?

Also, it's up to you to defend your food if needed. You can't rely on the bag alone and just stand there watching the bear try to get in like its a game... you need to take action, make noise or throw rocks near the bear to scare him off. He'll come back later but it's part of the sacrafice you make to carry a lighter bag. Not sure your URSACK failed as much as you migth not have used it properly or understood it's limitations. JMO.

Dave M -
One reason the Ursack is not accepted in Yosemite, Sequoia-Kings Canyon, Inyo NF, and the grizzly areas like Denali, Glacier, and Yellowstone NP is that even with the aluminum insert, the bears in those areas can and have gotten into the Ursacks (they tear the bottom open). Also, the insert is just one more thing to carry, adding weight and preventing what is supposed to be a major advantage, being able to fold or roll the bag up for compact carrying when it gets emptied. In the eastern US, they have not yet learned to do so, so the Ursack may work adequately there. Then again, in much of the eastern US, bear-bagging, especially counter-balance works as well.

By the way, keep in mind that a testimonial, especially one that gets published on the manufacturer's or dealer's website will only include at minimum primarily success, not a failure. How many tent manufacturers, for example, do you think would publish a letter that said "your tent failed in a light drizzle and gentle breeze" or sleeping bag manufacturers would publish "I got frostbite and hypothermia in 30 deg F weather sleeping in your sleeping bag", or car manufacturers would quote "your car fell apart in the first 100 miles"?

I tried using those big white cannisters you can get at a municipal pool the chlorien tablets come in. They are tough and have screw-on lids. They are huge--as big as a large bucket and so are useful for car camping. They protected my grub from possums, skunks, raccoons and even fire ants, but they were no match for black bears at Low Gap near Johnson City, Tennessee. A big male came into the camp, grabbed one with his paw and his claws sank into the thick white plastic. He ripped the side apart like it was paper and found a baggie full of cayenne pepper rub for chicken wings and ate it. Then he found a container of Breck Herbal Essence shampoo, bit the top off and drank it down. Apparently the cayenne pepper annoyed him so he took a swipe at my tent, tore a hunk from the rain fly, knocked it silly and wandered off into the woods where I heard him howling all night as the shampoo and the cayenne pepper did their trick. (I took refuge in my pick-up truck.) Later a bear attacked a mother and her child nearby at a place called Blue Hole. The ranger told me that they found the bear and killed him which tested postive for rabies. In 30 years of camping in the Appalachian Mountains I have rarely been bothered by black bears--this was one of the few times.