using tarp under tent in winter necessary?

I'm trying to cut back on the weight of my pack for some of the longer trips and I was thinking of ditching the tarp I use as a ground cloth for my next trip. We'll be camping on a pretty thick layer of snow, so I'm not too worried about puncturing the floor with a stick or rock and the temp will be below freezing so I'm not too worried about getting wet.

Still, I've always used the tarp, so I'm a bit hesitant to go without it and thought I'd get some expert input on the idea.

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You can cut the weight considerably from an "official" footprint or tarp by using a self-cut footprint made from a 2 mil plastic dropcloth ($2 in your local hardware store, and only 2 or 3 ounces of weight). But, yes, you can dispense with the footprint or tarp in winter, or anytime for that matter, if you are judicious in your choice of tentsite. In fact, most quality tents are made with a tough enough floor that you really don't need a footprint. Most of the hype about footprints is to sell you "YAPA" (Yet Another Profitable Accessory), making the store and manufacturer more money. It maybe costs $3 to $4 for the material, labor, packaging, and shipping for what they sell you for $30 to $50 ("custom fit to your tent", plus it has the official logo). I have used the dropcloth approach for over 30 years, and still have most of the tents I ever owned (they deteriorate mostly from the UV they get exposed to at the high altitudes I mostly camp in, with only a couple tents ever having had floor failures).

It is true that you should take care of your tent - plan where you pitch it, clean and dry it thoroughly when you get home, and avoid exposing it to the sun as much as possible (which doesn't work for me at the usual altitudes above 10,000 or 15,000 feet). It doesn't take much effort to avoid poking it with sticks or walking in the tent in crampons.

In short, don't worry so much about it.

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Never thought of a plastic dropcloth, but it is cheap and more compact and lighter than the tarp I've been lugging so far.

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I never use a ground sheet under my tent anymore. It is IMHO extra weight....... Like Bill says watch were you pitch it! Happy camping

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I never use a groundsheet under any tent in snow camping, I tried it and found that snow trapped between it and the tent floor can melt and thus make pools of water which can penetrate your floor and make your tent wet.

I always use a "footprint" under my four tents and usually an ID groundsheet in my Kifaru 8-man tipi. I own two Hilleberg and two Integral Designs tents and at the cost of these, I am going to use the GS to protect them.

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Gee, kutenay, "Kifaru" means "rhinoceros" (in Swahili). That ought to be tough enough to stand up to anything, even "bc in BC" burley types of folks (that's "backcountry in British Columbia", which is one of the toughest environments anywhere).

Re-reading my post, I should make it clear that I use a groundsheet (dropcloth cut to shape) for all trips where I might have to pitch the tent on non-snow-covered ground. Even glacier ice below the neve line (which is bare of snow) has enough sand and glacial flour to abrade the bottom of a tent. Since I keep tents "forever", and most of the tents I have bought in the past 20-30 years are expensive, top quality ones (Integral Designs and Mountain Hardwear for the most part), I want to take good care of them.

As kutenay says, though, for most snow camping, I do not use a tarp or footprint. I haven't had the problem of the snow getting trapped and melting, but I have seen it for other people.

Again, most of the deterioration of tents I encounter is UV damage to the fly, thanks to the high altitudes I most frequently camp at. Polyester fabric is more UV-resistant than nylon, and the coating Integral Designs uses for their single-wall tents is similar in its UV resistance to the polyester. But even at the high price of top quality tents, it doesn't take too many nights to bring the effective cost per night down. At the $575 that Backcountry.com is selling the MH Trango 3.1, 100 nights brings the cost to $5.75/night for the 2 of us (that's 2 winters worth of backcountry ski and snowshoe plus 2 summers' of 3 week expedition travel - though not December's Africa trip where all the gear was furnished). The Trango is going on its 5th year, so it's well below the Motel 6 level (old original Motel 6 pricing, that is)

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As always, you make a lot of sense and while I seldom set up on a glacier here, as I can always get down to timberline and prefer that, I certainly would use the "footprint" just as you do.

I tried making GCs from polyplastic tarps, painters plastic dropcloths and just found them too slippery and crackly in cold weather. So, I just pay for the foot print and use it whenever I think there may be danger to my tent's floor.

I am like you in that I buy the finest gear available and keep and use it for as long as it will last, and I do look after it. So, what I am thinking now is to get some white silnylon and use this as a "cover"for my Hilleberg and ID tents, due to the cost of these. The extra weight, at age 61, tends to hold me back on this, but, the $$$$$ I have spent on gear lately makes it a good option.

Kifaru tipis are VERY good for SOME situations, especially longer term stays in forested areas and they DO what Patrick says they will, but, in typical BC wet snow or on the wet side of the Cascades,, into the Mazamas or Sierras, I MUCH prefer a GOOD dome tent and the Hilleberg Saivo is THE one, it is absolutely the BOMB.

BTW, did you ever set up one of those North Face Pole Sleeve Oval tents????? Now, THERE was an exercise in self-torture!

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Kutenay, are you planning on using the white sil-nylon "cover" to shild the tent from UV rays? Or as a ground sheet? I did not understand fully, but I am interested to find out more..

On a side note. I have found silnylon several times in the "dollar a yard" bin a Walmart and have made tons of gear from it. It makes a good ground cloth under a tarp and is easy on the budget.

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I figure that a tarp made of this, the stuff Kifaru uses in their tipi liners WOULD shield a high dollar tent from UV rays and thus save replacement costs. My old Early Winters Light Dimension tent, the first commercial backpacking product made of Gore-Tex was a deep yellow when I bought it in 1977 and faded nearly cream colour when I pitched it a couple years ago; the floor was gone and it looked pretty sad, but, I was kinda emotional when I threw it out.

I spent many nights in that tent and it faded due to hard use and UV, so, I want to preserve the highend tents I have just bought and this is a way that I think will work. can't hurt to try, anyway.

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Tyvec (the house wrap stuff) makes a dandy "footprint" and, unlike plastic, doesn't seem to be as ready to rip. I get it free (when needed) by stopping at construction sites and (after asking) taking the discarded bits. Sure, it'll say "tyvec" or "lowes" on it - but who cares - it's going under your tent!

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I usually use it but have forgotten it at times.

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Thanks, I ended up going with a plastic drop cloth which I cut to the dimensions I needed. It probably weighs half as much as the tarp and takes up much less space. Thanks again.

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kutenay asked me

Quote:

BTW, did you ever set up one of those North Face Pole Sleeve Oval tents????? Now, THERE was an exercise in self-torture!

Do you mean the "geodesic dome" type? Sorry to take so long in answering, but I guess I didn't read all the way through to the question. Answer, if it is the giant dome type, is yes, and I did it all by myself. It was part of a contest. You were supposed to be a team of 2, but as a challenge, I did it solo. I done purdy gut, too, only 50% longer than the fastest team - 12m18s vs 6m32s. I have seen expedition crews take 45 minutes to set them up. But they do stand up to the winds, and they do allow a bunch of folks inside. By contrast, setting up a Bibler Eldorado (similar to the ID Mk 3 with the 2nd door) takes 5 min, including all stakes and guys doing it casually (or under 2 min when rushing to beat the incoming thunderstorm). Of course, the great thing about both the Bibler I-tent and Eldorado and the ID Mk 1 and Mk 3 is the internal poles, so you just pull it from the stuff sack, stake the corners, climb inside with your pack, and put the poles in place out of the storm. Bivy sacks are even faster, of course - just pull it out of the stuff sack and pull it on - 10-15 sec, but do take your crampons off first.

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Just got back from a weekend in the Black River Forest in Wisconsin, and a tarp was definately a help. We were diggind out from mid-thigh a hex for my tent. MY snow stakes were useless, being 8", and this meant using study sticks for stakes, supplied by the downed tress in the area. Anyways, I leaned after the first day, when we broke camp, there was a huge, gnarly root right under where we were sleeping, and I'm sure the Eureka Tent-Saver I cut up did its job just fine. I'd hate to imagine my tent's floor left to fend itelf against all the crap you find buried in the snow.

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