I live in Germany and do a lot of hiking. There are plenty of forests, hills, mountains, caves and ruins to keep an exploring hiker happy for a lifetime . The only danger to face in the area are wild boars. They have become a problem in our area due to over population. The are very dangerous when they have young. They will charge as soon as you step into their area. Luckily, I have only seen them driving home at night from my excursions. Other then climbing a pine tree like an Olympic athlete, how can I defend myself and family if we are charged by a large tusked angry pig. We only carry smaller knives (6" or less) due to the local laws for protection.
I suppose that those large cans of pepper spray designed for bears would also work on wild boars. Are those available in Germany? At any rate it sounds like your somewhere in Bavaria, or Southern Germany at least, and I'm sure you could find it in the Czech Republic...
Then again, I think I'd still want to spray from the tree...I really don't know anything about wild boar behavior, besides that, from a land management standpoint, they are just about the most destructive thing you can range on a given plot of land.
Perhaps a pair of well trained, related, Karelian Bear Dogs would help?
Thanks for the welcome pillowthread. I am located in the Rhineland-Pfalz area in west central-closer to France. Actually they can get about this big even today. I took this picture at a local castle. They act like rhinos, they just charge extremely fast. I hear horror stories from the local rangers. Maybe your right about buying some dogs. Yes on the spray, but the pepper spray may take affect after the boar bites my leg off (LOL). They are very destructive here. I have seen a whole family of boars dead on the autobahn. Caused a lot of damage that day. Thank for your quick reply.
I live in Germany and do a lot of hiking. There are plenty of forests, hills, mountains, caves and ruins to keep an exploring hiker happy for a lifetime . The only danger to face in the area are wild boars. They have become a problem in our area due to over population. The are very dangerous when they have young. They will charge as soon as you step into their area. Luckily, I have only seen them driving home at night from my excursions. Other then climbing a pine tree like an Olympic athlete, how can I defend myself and family if we are charged by a large tusked angry pig. We only carry smaller knives (6" or less) due to the local laws for protection.
Hey D-Dog.
Dogs was the first thing I though of also, although from what I know of them, which is honestly very little, they could put a pretty serious hurting on the dogs too.
I'm curious because I've been giving serious thought over the last couple years to moving to Germany or one of the surrounding countries. What do you mean by "the local laws for protection"?
Knives can only be a certain length in Germany without receiving a fine. This includes leathemen tools. Yes, if you are a carpenter and you have a large leatherman on your person, you can be fined. If you are asking about other more serious types of weapons, then you need to join a hunter's club and be trained. Home protection is the same. You would need to join a club. Hunting is legal here, but you normally go out with a ranger (forest meister). I am not a hunter, so I do not worry about it. I love to fish though. Pepper spray and zappers are legal here too. But honestly, no need to worry about. Crime is not so bad hear. Hiking is very safe. Most of the country hikes anyways. No poisonous snakes or bears. I know you would enjoy hiking here. Hiking in the Alps is very fun. No need to be a mountain climber either, there are "hiker" trails to the tops of the mountains. I enjoy hiking up mountains and hills to the various castles. Germany is not a bad place to live. You would feel safe in the country. Cost of living is something to think about, so a good job is recommended.
I live in Louisiana where boars are common. A dog is a good idea. A barking dog will most likely scare off a boar. I would not recommend going up against one even with a very big knife. They will charge you and their tusks can seriously injure you. The best course of action is to climb a tree quickly.
I would also use a bear spray as a first response. I have seen people shoot a boar twice and still get attacked. My point being having a big knife is still better then not having one if you need one.
Just because some of us are wild bores, that is no reason to threaten us with weapons!
Ok, on a more serious note, make noise to announce your presence, boars are smart enough to avoid confrontation when given the opportunity. A knife would be useless, kind of like attempting to stab a charging lion. Trees are good, but by the time you realize you are being charged, it is likely too late.
I took this picture from a ruined castled (Falkenstein) located on a mountain behind my house. Lots of places to hike and lots of wildlife to see. The locals are very cool and helpful to a crazy American like myself. Thanks everybody for their input. Like to hear more. whomworry is right about using a knife, the two weapons on either side of boar in picture took this animal down. It was killed sometime during middle ages and for meet-so no angry feedback please. I just took the picture. The tour guide told me the boar weighed about 500 pounds. Time to run!!!!
500 pounds!!! Darn that's a big animal!!
I heard many storys about charging boars from french farmers and hunters. Trust me you dont want to be on the receiving end!! ;-) Chances are you wont be able to hit it with a rifle. Not unless you train real hard anyway. I would also suggest buying a dog, I would go for a small hound though. When on a trip to France, I was lucky enough to go on a hunting trip with local hunters.They use dog herds (comprised of a small dog named Jagd-terrier, or even beagles) to get the boars out on the open where others wait them out. Up to ten/twelve guys will be patroling the "ambush" area. That alone, shows how serious boars can be. Although I was not liking the "ambush" idea at first. t After all it hardly seemed fair, I've gotten to understand it. On that time out we didn't catch anything, let alone the two times after that. It's only on the fourth hunt that we eventually cought one. All the prvious times, the boar eluded us. The hunters over there respect boars and see boar hunting the same way we see hunting a dangerous grizz. So get a dog a small feisty hound dog. That way boar wont get him like they do the bigger dogs. And chance are if the boars hears a hound dog his instinct will tell him it's time to go the other way.
There was a program last night about wild boars and how especially in Europe they have spread all over the continent. It said where once they were hunted, that hunting was in decline and they have taken ground every where.
I would think maybe bear spray might work, but being such protective and aggressive animals they may not be effected to much in time being they run so fast, compared to the way a bear charges in bluffs.
I have been chased here in Arizona by the little Javalina's which are very small, but are very aggressive around people. They will run at you and tho as small about a foot tall they pack a lot of punch. Usually I have had to throw sticks or rocks at them as there is nothing tall enough that isn't a cactus to climb. I hate coming across them in the wild as they are so unpredictable, actually they are predictable they will turn and ran at you as soon as they know you are there.
Arizona Javalina near Tucson a couple years ago. This one was in the dark as we were making camp. It came out of the bushes and charged us. At first we didn't know what it was, just a swoosh sound running thru the brush.
I thru a cracker at it and it stopped to eat it then disappeared into the night.
I never really gave wild boars a second thought, last night when I watched that show that Gary mentions on the discovery channel - "Pig Bomb" about the epidemic of wild boars across the world.
I'll tell you what, I hear some boar at night in the back country I won't be idly turning over back to sleep with thoughts of porky pig lol.
I have several acquaintences who have been injured by wild boar in the south eastern Appalachians. One had to have over 25 stitches and months of recovery from the wounds on his leg.
I am more wary of wild boar in while backpacking than I am of Black Bear. The boar have a temperment much like that of a yellow jacket or red wasp.
We Americans need to realize that a wild boar is not the same as the feral hogs we see here so often. Though they are obviously kin, they aren't ecaxtly the same thing either. Pillow is very correct describing the damage feral pigs do but I don't know if European Wild Boar, being a native to Europe, acts as poorly.
Having said that, any of my Southern (American, not Bavarian) brothers and sisters are probably familiar with the sport of exterminating feral hogs using trained hounds. These dogs hold a hog at bay while their handler dispatches the nasty oinker. A couple of hog hounds (I really don't know what else to call them) might be good friends on the trail while in boar country, as long as they don't runn off after the first tusker they smell. Any houndsmen in the house who could comment on this idea?
Wild pigs are becoming a major issue here in the midwest also, Illinois and Missouri are allowing you to kill them without any tags all you have to have is a hunting license, they are more rampant in missouri than illinois but are making a fast approach in and around the st.louis area and north into pike, calhoun and jersey county in illinois, in California its a huge deal for a poacher to take a wild pig with just a knife as they charge them they will step to the side and stab them in there throats, even though it is illegal to do so because they say it is in-humane . They are growing in numbers for one due to the lack of predators, in the midwest they have no predators maybe an occasional Cougar or Panther but noone in illinois will admit cougars are here, but in the last month in Missouri they have had two state fish and game confirmed cougars
A large percentage of the hogs in the Appalachians and southeast are true wild Boar. They are not native, but that doesn't mean they are are wild boar. They were introduced inadvertantly into the wild in Graham County, NC, when they were imported from Europe for a hunting club around 1908. It is a sadly comical that they thought four miles of six foot tall split rail fence would contain them. The Boar were Eurasian, most likely from western Russia or Germany. They initially stayed around the enclosure, as the preserve provided them shelter and protection from hunting and predators, though they came and went at will. That is until the first hunt. At that point there were around 100 of them, and all but two or three escaped and fled into the surrounding mountains. Feral animals are those that have been bred and domesticated for human use, but are now living wild. During the course of a century, the expansive spread of these boar eventually overlapped areas where actual feral hogs existed, and cross breeding with feral pigs has taken place. However, most of the wild populations in the southeast are not feral hogs, but invasive Eurasian Boar, decended directly from those introduced on the Hooper Bald hunting preserve.
I live in Germany and do a lot of hiking. There are plenty of forests, hills, mountains, caves and ruins to keep an exploring hiker happy for a lifetime . The only danger to face in the area are wild boars. They have become a problem in our area due to over population. The are very dangerous when they have young. They will charge as soon as you step into their area. Luckily, I have only seen them driving home at night from my excursions. Other then climbing a pine tree like an Olympic athlete, how can I defend myself and family if we are charged by a large tusked angry pig. We only carry smaller knives (6" or less) due to the local laws for protection.
I can tell you from personal experiance that it goes by lottery in some states such as Texas to hunt Wild Boar...yes they are agressive..I would check woth the Forest Miester to see if its possible to carry a rifle..Minimum when hunting Boar is shotgun when I hunted them..presently Texas Fish and Wildlife is trying to prosecute a land owner for introduceing a species that has started to devastate hunting area's. I try and keep up with a friend who is a game warden....I love your Pic's D-Dog. Miss Duechland...By the way have they told you about if you go to the Black Forest and you return?
D-Dog if not a shotgun (slug'd / aughted Buck) or an accurate for your use handgun, then take a walking staff with a very quickly detached end cap revealing a spear head. Another common way of hunting pig with dogs, that sometimes are lucky enough to be wearing armor.
California has a lot of wild pigs. Few call them boars anymore as those are technically only the males, and the sows are just as big and tusky. They are hunted lightly and ineffectively but damage crops and native habitats. No surprise to see a pig up to about 400 lbs live weight in coastal, valley or foothill areas with oaks, pastures or marshes. The average weight is about 110 lbs. for about 150 pigs taken on Ft. Hunter Liggett each year. Tusks range up to about 3.5 inches from top and bottom on both boars and sows. They are of mixed feral domestic and imported European genetics that have evolved a variety of colorations. Big ones have about an inch of solid slab covers their chest which stops light bullets or shotgun pellets. They seldom charge hunters but may be running at random or without good eyesight along trails toward someone, so the intent is uncertain. You need a special tag to take pigs which costs $20.52 for residents. So let them run over you unless you have a tag and big bullets. Just another invasive exotic species unfortunately managed for license revenue.
I just read an article that many of the boars hunted in Germany are found to be radioactive from the nuclear reactor disaster from Russia those many years ago. Thousands of pounds of meat are being thrown away each year-boar is quite good :(
It is believed the boars are eating radioactive mushrooms. Umm.....humans over here are also eating mushrooms!!!!! This is scary since the same thing is happening in Japan, with the radiation leaking into the ocean. Why do we humans do this to ourselves!!
Wild pigs are becoming a major issue here in the midwest also, Illinois and Missouri are allowing you to kill them without any tags all you have to have is a hunting license, they are more rampant in missouri than illinois but are making a fast approach in and around the st.louis area and north into pike, calhoun and jersey county in illinois, in California its a huge deal for a poacher to take a wild pig with just a knife as they charge them they will step to the side and stab them in there throats, even though it is illegal to do so because they say it is in-humane . They are growing in numbers for one due to the lack of predators, in the midwest they have no predators maybe an occasional Cougar or Panther but noone in illinois will admit cougars are here, but in the last month in Missouri they have had two state fish and game confirmed cougars
Hi Dwoods,
I'm going out in the Shawnee National Forest in about 3 weeks for a few nights backpacking on the R2R trail. Are there wild boars out there?
I've got a 95 lb German Shepherd, and my buddy has an 80 lb black lab. I do have BEAR spray, and wasn't going to bring it...maybe I should?
If you have any other advise for the SNF please do share.
I bow hunt wild boar in CA for a few decades and have killed many wild boar and sows over the years. They are a great animal to hunt, as you can hunt them 365 days a year and you don't have to draw a tag for them. The meat is excellent. I primarily meat hunt now for eaters. That would be a suckling sow in the 150 pound range. Sow makes for great loin, chops, hams, sausages, etc. Boars I pretty much grind up into sausage except for a few cuts like the back strap/loin. The pigs are a cross bred of European and feral domesticated pigs. So some appear like domesticated pigs in all sorts of colors and mottling and others have full European Wild Boar features with heavy hair and large tusks such as the Trophy head you posted the picture of. You can have guided or unguided hunts on private land for a few hundred bucks. Pig hunting in CA is a cheap inexpensive hunt compared to say ELK which can run several thousand dollars on private lands. Most of the pigs are on private land as public lands have been over hunted and the pigs simply move off public lands onto neighboring private lands where there is less hunting pressure, and better water and acorns. In general, CA pigs and the rest of the U.S. will run from humans because we have extensive hunting pressure put on them. They fear humans, your pigs no longer fear humans. Here in the States If you encounter a wild pig in brush or thickets and the pig is cornered they will not hesitate to charge and aggressively attack a human, but things like that happen infrequently and are rare occurrences. People hunt with various weapons bow, muzzleloader, Handgun, rifle. SOmetime folks will handgun hunt them in thick brush and that can easily lead to a charge. The tusks are sharp and can shred your leg or body. A 200+ pound sow can easily knock you on your ass and do damage, breaking an arm, leg, ribs etc. A 300-400+ lb boar with several inches of tusks can cut you badly and do extensive severe damage.
If pigs are aggressively attacking humans in Germany it is due to a lack of hunting pressure. Since you are not allowed to carry any sort of weapons such as a hand gun you are pretty much defenseless. A knife(a laughable idea) will do nothing for you with a pissed off hog. You will lose that battle quickly with broken bones and severe lacerations, a hospital visit and hospital bills if an artere isn't cut and you don't bleed to death. I would carry bear spray if you are legally allowed to do so. That is about all you can do. They will destroy your dog quickly. You would need several well trained pig hunting dogs. Hunting pigs with dogs, the dogs are primarily just used to locate the pig and corner the pig. 2 coyotes will kill any domestic pet dog of any breed(they regularly do here at Tahoe with Labs, Shepherds, Pits, Rottweilers all having been regularly killed here by coyotes), ....an adult pig will simply mangle your pet dogs. If they have no fear of humans they will certainly have no fear of dogs. So if you don't mind vet bills or a dead dog instead of having YOUR leg/body mangled then that is a semi option. They will charge either you or the dog or both. Most likely both. They'll just go Hog Wild(pun intended). Maybe the dog will engage them until you can get to safety. A tree has to be available and climbable. The likely hood of that option working out is pretty damn low. Make a lot of noise, wear a bell and hope that scares them off... but from your comments it appears the pigs no longer have any fear of humans and have become aggressive. Best bet is to avoid areas where there have been problems with pig/ human encounters if you are concerned about encounters and injuries.
...p.s....LOL a lot of the above posts are nonsense which I won't bother to correct.
i always thought coyotes would need more than 2 to kill a larger dog (like the whole pack or they won't even try)..most of the coyotes i see around IL are about 30-40 pounds. I feel like my dog would tear 2 of them up, but yeah he doesn't hunt and kill on a daily basis so that is of course a huge factor.
Individual coyotes will attack humans and dogs. Individual coyotes rarely succeed in killing(human or large dog) when they are solo, but they will not hesitate to make an attempt and end up inflicting severe wounds. Individual coyotes can handle small to medium sized dogs and have killed plenty on an individual one on one basis. Of course plenty of attacks do occur with more than one coyote. 2 is plenty to deal with any dog and make a kill, and in most cases 1 coyote is sufficient to take down all but the largest/strongest of dogs. Nothing is written in stone and a dog might get lucky. But All it took was 2 coyotes to kill this woman(below link).
Coyotes kill for a living. That's their job and they are quite good at it. Big Dogs(and dogs of all sizes of course) get wacked on a fairly regular basis around Tahoe and they have determined that it is most often just 2 or 3 coyotes.
You are more likely to be attacked by a coyote than a pig. Or attacked by a mountain lion (In CA) than a pig.
dang! I'm pretty shocked they went after that girl. lack of food?
people at my job say they see coyotes out every night on there walks. they also say small dogs in the neighborhood are disapearing, but no big dogs, and that when he's out walking his dog they get the hell out of the way and seem scared, not aggressive.
im definitely shocked at that story. Wolves.... I would not be so suprised, but coyotes! dang.
I'll look at them with a little more caution now, but i still can't take them too seriously for whatever reason.
I grew up in Germany. My grandfather was a hunter and I would go out with him as a kid. I remember seeing the wild pigs on occassion, but he had a rifle. So I really wasn't worried.
The laws in Europe are very restrictive concerning the mere possession of weapons. Germany is no exception. It seems that it takes an act of parliment to get a license to even have a rifle or other weapons in your home.
But, given even that scenario, I believe the option of having a large dog and some pepper spray would suffice for the hiking excursions in Germany. And, due to the close proximity of local villages and towns. I think that help is near by should and emergency arise.
I loved it over there, learned a lot of cultural things, but love my good ole' USA and all of our basic rights even better.
Not lack of food, we are food. They have lost their fear of humans(in various areas, not yours apparently) and will go after the easy meal. Little Kids, Cats and dogs are a perfect target and since folks don't bother them in various areas the occasional attack on an adult human occurs. 99 out of a 100 coyotes will avoid humans. But Coyotes do go after adult humans if you look at and read Table 1 and that is just CA and isn't all inclusive. Read some of the incidents around Tahoe in that Table, pretty wild stuff. The pics of that little girl (Lauren Bridges) and the boy that got mauled are pretty graphic. Attacks certainly aren't a daily occurrence but attacks do happen here and there. Certainly way more than pigs. Every AREA is different. As the original poster stated pig/human encounters occur frequently in Germany. In CA it is extremely rare. I can not speak for other areas of the country as far as pigs in Texas or FLA pigs but here in CA the wild boar will avoid humans at all costs. Primarily as they are pressured heavily by hunting. They are too smart and know better. As the Coyote study suggests it has been happening with increasing frequency due to a variety of reasons. Where I camp there are large packs of coyotes. I hear them howling every night. I howl and they howl back. I haven't called them in with a rabbit call as I just don't have one and don't really feel like buying one. Some of these coyotes run pretty damn big. When I see them I am like...damn, that is one big coyote. German Shepherd sized. They have never bothered anyone where I camp around Davis Lake, Ca and are wary of humans. If I can find some one that will lend me a call maybe i will call them in one night.
ChicagoJosh said:
dang! I'm pretty shocked they went after that girl. lack of food?
people at my job say they see coyotes out every night on there walks. they also say small dogs in the neighborhood are disapearing, but no big dogs, and that when he's out walking his dog they get the hell out of the way and seem scared, not aggressive.
im definitely shocked at that story. Wolves.... I would not be so suprised, but coyotes! dang.
I'll look at them with a little more caution now, but i still can't take them too seriously for whatever reason.
well good to know. sad to hear about these stories but good to know. it seems much more common than i thought.
question though. shepherds and other herding dogs are used to protect the sheep from wolves. how does that work when a wolf (clearly even more than a coyote) can take out the shepherd? i don't know anything about training a herding dog to guard the flock, but i know they do it.
Oh, i meant to add though. lack of food has to play a role. coyotes would want easy pray. rabbits, squirels, mice etc...
why try to take out a 95 pound dog or in extreme cases attack a full grown person (150 - 200 pounds) when they can eat a mouse with no worries of being hurt.
if a coyote gets hurt, he could be as good as dead, so i've gotta think a lack of food plays a role when they are seeking out large dogs or people for food.
the small dogs, cat, children are a different story since...they are easy targests
The wolf can and does easily kill the herding dog. A dog is used primarily to keep the sheep, cattle together more so than to protect the herd. The dog assists the sheepherder to protect the herd. Cattle dogs often are targeted by various predators. Wolves, lions, coyotes, etc... what have you.
ChicagoJosh said:
well good to know. sad to hear about these stories but good to know. it seems much more common than i thought.
question though. shepherds and other herding dogs are used to protect the sheep from wolves. how does that work when a wolf (clearly even more than a coyote) can take out the shepherd? i don't know anything about training a herding dog to guard the flock, but i know they do it.
There is plenty of food for the coyotes in the Lake Tahoe area as they are very well fed(and that's not coming from cats and dogs as a primary food source:), extremely large, and are quite numerous with ever growing populations. Cats and dogs of any size are just as easy to catch and kill as any wild prey arguably even easier. People allow their dogs to run around off the leash here at Tahoe. Dogs often escape and go off on their own. Cats roam freely. Domestic animals are an easier kill than any wild animal. The coyotes will lure a dog off with a female coyote in heat. The domestic dog will go off and then be attacked by one, two or more coyotes. There are a lot of reasons for increasing coyote attacks on humans, primarily an overall lack of fear (more so than a lack of wild food) and ever growing coyote populations.There are tons of them in various areas. And when you have an ever increasing population you are going to have encounters and the possible attack against a human.
ChicagoJosh said:
Oh, i meant to add though. lack of food has to play a role. coyotes would want easy pray. rabbits, squirels, mice etc...
why try to take out a 95 pound dog or in extreme cases attack a full grown person (150 - 200 pounds) when they can eat a mouse with no worries of being hurt.
if a coyote gets hurt, he could be as good as dead, so i've gotta think a lack of food plays a role when they are seeking out large dogs or people for food.
the small dogs, cat, children are a different story since...they are easy targests
flyfisher, I'm not doubting whats going on in CA or the facts your presented in that link. clearly some coyotes are capable of killing large dogs and people.
I just had to search for this link though. I had seen in a while back when chatting in a german shepherd forum. about the whole coyote vs dog thing. this coyote anyway...apparently is afraid of this yellow lab. if nothing else, its some cool photo's to check out :)
There is no black and white here. Perhaps I wasn't clear. Lots of gray area when it comes to one animal hunting and killing another. I think that may confuse some people in their thinking that every encounter between a dog and a coyote should end in one way or another. Clearly from all the reported attacks listed above on humans and their pet dogs the coyote is mostly unsuccessful in making a kill. That's not a surprise when a human and a dog are together as one and there is an individual coyote. What is interesting is that a lone coyote will attack a paired up adult human and a dog.
Bears and Mountain Lions will often run from one or a few dogs. That's not to say in various scenarios that a Mountain Lion will not easily dispatch a yard dog and make a meal out of it. The Mountain Lions kill cats and dogs as regularly as coyotes do out here. In those photos' there are humans present, two dogs and a small coyote. I wouldn't expect the coyote to just turn and kill one of those dogs under those circumstances. In that scenario the coyote was well out matched. ChicagoJosh said:
flyfisher, I'm not doubting whats going on in CA or the facts your presented in that link. clearly some coyotes are capable of killing large dogs and people.
I just had to search for this link though. I had seen in a while back when chatting in a german shepherd forum. about the whole coyote vs dog thing. this coyote anyway...apparently is afraid of this yellow lab. if nothing else, its some cool photo's to check out :)
As far as getting mauled by some animal like a pig or coyote or mountain lion or bear...there are sharks in the ocean, sometimes a person gets bitten or killed. Lots of folks going into the ocean every day to surf, kayak, windsurf, scuba dive, snorkel etc ...how often is a person bitten or killed by shark? Things can happen....People get bitten by rattle snakes, villagers get attacked by Tigers, Elephants, Hippopotamuses, Crocodiles....Mountain Bikers and Joggers get mauled or killed by Mountain Lions, Grizzly Bears sometimes maul or kill humans......stuff happens. With the recent escaped cobra at the Bronx Zoo, I believe they said that 50,000 people are killed yearly by the Cobra.
I think the odds of getting mauled by a German Pig is got to be pretty astronomically infrequent.
50,000 killed by a cobra? good lord! haha, nice oktoberfest joke.
for sure, each animal is different just like people. this thread did open my mind to the fact that coyotes can be harmful to me or my large dog. prior to this i would have thought only small dogs/cats were at risk.
There is genetic evidence that in the northeastern US and southern Canada the Grey Wolf and Coyote are interbreeding. The offspring have physical and behavioral traits of both, but most concerning is the hybrid have Coyote's boldness lack of fear of people, while retaining the agreesive pack hunting behavior of the Grey Wolf.
Just saw a seminar from a wildlife biologist/geneticist regarding this exact phenomenon...what does this mean to the wildlife biologist on a larger scale? Well, similarly to the feral pig/wild boar cross, because they interbreed, Coyotes and Grey Wolves are now one and the same species!!
Did you hear about the Cobra that recently got loose at the Zoo? Well they caught the little 20" fellow a few days later. Along with all those news reports regarding this event they stated that 50K folks are killed yearly by Cobra's. All I can say is that that is what the news services stated. :) I have NO IDEA IF THAT FIGURE IS EVEN REMOTELY ACCURATE.....That is just what they were saying. Which personally I question as to that number. It seems quite large. But that's what they said.....feel free to research that number.
I am glad you caught my GERMAN PIG/Oktoberfest Joke...I slipped that baby in there...HAHA.
ChicagoJosh said:
50,000 killed by a cobra? good lord! haha, nice oktoberfest joke.
for sure, each animal is different just like people. this thread did open my mind to the fact that coyotes can be harmful to me or my large dog. prior to this i would have thought only small dogs/cats were at risk.
I read this article and found much humor in it. Is it possible that coyotes and wolves could interbreed...Yes it is quite feasible. I could spend endless time picking apart this article and the purported theories....But I just can't exhaust myself trying to convey any rational explanation for you... HEY IT'S CHUBACABRA!!! gonzan said:
There is genetic evidence that in the northeastern US and southern Canada the Grey Wolf and Coyote are interbreeding. The offspring have physical and behavioral traits of both, but most concerning is the hybrid have Coyote's boldness lack of fear of people, while retaining the agreesive pack hunting behavior of the Grey Wolf.
Hogs taste good, the younger the better. I have had several encounters with boars, hogs, whatever you may call them. My first night out in South Carolina (ACE Basin) I had my first run-in with a (pack of) wild hog(s). It was at night, just after the sun set and I had just finished a meal. I was in my tent, reading before turning in when I heard the snorting and so fourth. I grabbed my long blade and left the tent, but I couldn't see a damn thing. I could hear them, several of them from many angles, probably had me surrounded. I have been hunting, been through a divorce, at war and I'm also a father so I have seen a lot of crazy stuff. I have never felt so uncomfortable in my life when I stood outside of my tent hearing these beasts plan their next meal aloud. When I turned my headlamp on all I could see was huge bodies of flesh, tusks and hair... At that point I freaked out and started acting like a hippie at a dead show when the weed wore off. I screamed, hollered, cried, lashed my machete against the trees to make noise and even did a bit of monologue to help me feel better. Anything would have worked. I felt like I was being hunted, never had that feeling before outside of war. Thankfully the hogs left after my fit. To this day I carry in the woods, only for this reason.
Guess what? There are no Wolves in CA, NV, OR etc BUT there are plenty of Coyotes. Coyotes kill anything they get the opportunity to kill and eat.
I do not hunt coyotes here in NV & Nor Cal......but I can say this....there are Coyotes of all sizes that I have seen. They come in all sizes. I have seen yotes that are quite big that I would say are in the large dog class size. IE BIG German Shepherd Sized. FAT, BIG, FURRY Coyotes ...these individuals can deal with a doe or fawn easily. These BIG yotes are nothing new. There have been BIG Yotes since time immemorial.
Taking down a Steer....no f'in way on an individual basis. A group of coyotes? Well of course a group of coyotes can with luck bring down a cow ELK or Beef Cow if luckily successful as a pack.
I like Coyotes. I do not hunt and kill them. Unless they become a problem on a friends ranch or if they are attacking kids/humans/pets in a suburban setting I have no reason to wack them and thin out their numbers.
Where I camp there are large packs of coyotes running around\BIG PACKS with BIG COYOTES...they don't bother me...I have no reason to bother them, ie kill them.
...although the explosion in the Coyote and Mountain Lion populations have devastated the Deer Populations in CA and NV,,,,I will let others thin them out.
I remember camping once at Gaviota State Park, CA and in the night there was a russling around our camp site. It was pitch black and we could not see what it was. My buddy grabbed a flashlight. There was a family of racoons all over the place right around us in the darkness. I put a potato chip in the palm of my hand and one of the little fellas came and put his little paws right up on the palm of my hand to eat the potato chip. I clenched down on his arms and tossed him across the camp ground. Such is Nature.
mahoosicmayhem said:
Hogs taste good, the younger the better. I have had several encounters with boars, hogs, whatever you may call them. My first night out in South Carolina (ACE Basin) I had my first run-in with a (pack of) wild hog(s). It was at night, just after the sun set and I had just finished a meal. I was in my tent, reading before turning in when I heard the snorting and so fourth. I grabbed my long blade and left the tent, but I couldn't see a damn thing. I could hear them, several of them from many angles, probably had me surrounded. I have been hunting, been through a divorce, at war and I'm also a father so I have seen a lot of crazy stuff. I have never felt so uncomfortable in my life when I stood outside of my tent hearing these beasts plan their next meal aloud. When I turned my headlamp on all I could see was huge bodies of flesh, tusks and hair... At that point I freaked out and started acting like a hippie at a dead show when the weed wore off. I screamed, hollered, cried, lashed my machete against the trees to make noise and even did a bit of monologue to help me feel better. Anything would have worked. I felt like I was being hunted, never had that feeling before outside of war. Thankfully the hogs left after my fit. To this day I carry in the woods, only for this reason.
I could spend endless time picking apart this article and the purported theories....But I just can't exhaust myself trying to convey any rational explanation for you... HEY IT'S CHUBACABRA!!!
Flyfisher,
I would like to hear your responses to the research. I agree the Toronto newspaper article was not well written, and very poorly cited. Months ago I looked into the topic and found that there are multiple genetic studies that verify the mixed genetic population. That ongoing scientific research is conducted at least by Trent University, the New York State Museum biology research dept., as well as the Maine Dept. of Inland Fish and Wildlife. I am hesitant to disregard the studies of venerable institutions without substantiating cause.
I am perplexed by your last sentence, as it is clearly intended to convey that I and the others reading your comment are not willing or capable of rational thought or discourse. I readily admit that I do not have the training in biology to personally vet or refute the genetic data, and that I have yet to read the actual published reports. I am more than open to the an empirical discussion of how and why the genetic research and evidence is incorrect. If it is, I certainly want to know that it is and why.
so the yelling and commotion you caused scared the off? or did they just wander off not phased by the yelling?
crazy story though.
my only sort of scary wildlife encounter was in the BWCA. me and a friend were about 200 yards from camp, setting the rope to tree our food later that night. we were making noise...and then i hear a rustling the in bushes. I didn't see anything at first, and we go about our business. a few seconds later i hear it again, glance over and just see a huge mass of black fur.
at that point i know it has to be a black bear. so i tell my buddy there's a bear over there (maybe 20 feet away). we both slowly back away while facing it. (it was still behind some bushes) and head back to camp. we get our other 4 buddies (6 of us now) and head back to finish hanging the rope fo the food pack. once were done with that we do a little exploring around. don't find a bear, but find a HUGE pile of bear droppings. and see tons of scratch marks on the trunks of trees all around.
the bear never charged or came back into camp, but it definitely got my heart racing when i saw how big, and how close it was. i had bear spray and a large knife. no firearm.
NO. Just that it would require to much typing and I don't want to write a lengthy essay to dispute the article. Comprende?gonzan said:
1flyfisher said:
I could spend endless time picking apart this article and the purported theories....But I just can't exhaust myself trying to convey any rational explanation for you... HEY IT'S CHUBACABRA!!!
Flyfisher,
I would like to hear your responses to the research. I agree the Toronto newspaper article was not well written, and very poorly cited. Months ago I looked into the topic and found that there are multiple genetic studies that verify the mixed genetic population. That ongoing scientific research is conducted at least by Trent University, the New York State Museum biology research dept., as well as the Maine Dept. of Inland Fish and Wildlife. I am hesitant to disregard the studies of venerable institutions without substantiating cause.
I am perplexed by your last sentence, as it is clearly intended to convey that I and the others reading your comment are not willing or capable of rational thought or discourse. I readily admit that I do not have the training in biology to personally vet or refute the genetic data, and that I have yet to read the actual published reports. I am more than open to the an empirical discussion of how and why the genetic research and evidence is incorrect. If it is, I certainly want to know that it is and why.
I would have liked to have shot the lot of them, thrown them in a pot and made a coon hat out of their skins. They chewed through a brandy new expensive tent.
Ok I'll give this some time. I disagree with several of the claims in the article regarding coywolves or some population explosion of coyotes interbreeding with wolves and this being a threat in any way until solid verifiable facts are produced. Right now with all the coywolf hype, facts have been wildly exaggerated.
Coyotes routinely wack deer in NV and CA. They are coyotes not coywolves. Their population growth is directly attributable to the decline of deer populations in various areas of the west. Mountain Lions also are a big factor. Coyotes will bring down does, fawns, does giving birth and will aggressively attack large deer that are antlered, they will attack and kill cow elk with pack numbers. All the above I have witnessed first hand while hunting or glassing.
Coyotes hunt individually and in packs. They have done this for millenia. To suggest that coyotes or these super coywolves are doing something new is absurd.
Coyotes have attacked Humans. Read the links I posted above. They are coyotes and not some super coywolves. They have killed plenty of cats, dogs, and all sorts of domestic and wild game including Humans. Paris Hilton had two of her dogs killed(they are probably happier for it if they didn't actually commit suicide by coyote), OZZY Osbourne and Jessica Simpson have had their dogs killed. Tons of average Americans have had their dog or cat killed by coyotes. Attacks upon domestic pets and humans are quite prevalent. They are coyotes doing this not some super coywolves. Sheep, Cattle, you name it have also been killed, there is no disputing this. To suggest that this is due to some super coywolf interbreeding is highly misleading.
Coyotes get BIG, Bigger than these researchers are leading on. The photo the article uses....is that definitively a coywolf documented through DNA genetic testing? Or are they claiming it is? EITHER WAY it is 100% identical in size, coloration, facial features, skull size etc as Coyotes I have seen all my life for multiple decades. All The photo's of purported coywolves are the same size as large coyotes found elsewhere where there is no remote possibility of coywolves. I'm not saying any of those aren't coywolves but they are no larger than the largest coyotes that roam the Western U.S which are purportedly supposed to be smaller than their eastern counterparts. Send me a rabbit call and I will provide you all the photo's you care to see of coyotes the same size as those that are supposed to be coywolves. I am not saying they are not coywolves. Prove it with DNA evidence. Till then they are a coyote. There are plenty of coyotes larger than the average. They make it out that if a coyote is running around that is larger than the average and over 30 pounds and is actually a massive coyote that it can't possibly be a coyote but must be some super coywolf.
You can not reasonably claim that a coyote is a coywolf simply by appearances such aS size, coloration or features such as skull sizes. I have seen coyotes with all sorts of features out west. Grizzly Bears come in many sizes and colors. Mountain Grizzlies often top out several hundred pounds lighter than Kodiak Grizzlies or coastal grizzlies that have highly nutritious food supplies. Ie salmon which mountain griz do not have access to. A large mountain grizzly would be 600-800 pounds, a Coastal Kodiak Grizzly can top 1200 pounds. Almost double in size to one living elsewhere. Same happens for any animal species. Modern Agriculture has led to an explosion of deer populations, due to Hunter efforts from Associations such as the Wild Turkey Foundation, Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, Mule Deer Foundation, there are more Wild Turkeys, Elk, Antelope currently in the U.S. than at the time of Ben Franklin and his pondering whether the Wild Turkey should be our national bird. Plenty more cats and dogs out there too. That's a direct reason for more domestic animal attacks by coyotes. There are just more pets out there in back yards or roaming freely. More feral cats and dogs results in more opportunities for coyotes to prey on them. Then they come right to the source....suburban back yards. Cats and dogs are a nice easy large food source that provides thousands of more calories than a smaller wild game. So there is tons of food sources to produce large coyotes. I have seen them. Nature for one is currently just producing larger coyotes.
To suggest that coyotes have to remain an average size of 30 pounds OR even more laughable that coyotes should not be larger is highly inaccurate. Have you looked around lately? Have you seen more obese massively fat large people? That doesn't mean there is a new genetic mutation of human beings.
Coyotes and wolves and feral dogs have interbred for millenia. Call of the Wild JacK London....good ole Buck ring a bell?
So this whole purported theory of an explosion of coywolf numbers is far from proven fact. Is the coywolf population increasing? Where is actual population studies? They are taking a current population, whose is to say there were not more actual coyote/wolf interbreeding in the past?...It all strikes me as some alarmist theory. If the coywolf population is increasing? SO what? Shoot them. To try and imply that this is some sort of problem we need to become alarmed about and/or throw $$$ at to deal with is a major leap.
There is a population explosion of coyotes all across the U.S. ....Could coywolf populations be increasing along with it? Perhaps? But I bet half the claims and hype and exaggeration of coywolfs are simply large coyotes. Once again if you don't want coywolves or coyotes running around your back yard killing dogs, cats, attacking your kids then shoot them. They'll get the message. Easily accomplished...problem solved. Thin them out, cull the population. More coyotes need to be shot in NV and CA to begin with as they are running rampant decimating deer in various areas. 10-20-30-40 years ago there weren't coyotes running around congested neighborhoods and suburban backyards in New jersey, california elsewhere like they are now.
I also found the article to have a sensationalist tone of alarm which strikes me as these researches are pursing grant dollars....
Need I go on?
That's how I see it till I see better research results and documented problems(aside from the problems actual coyotes create) that actually would cause me to be alarmed about them.
You believe as you see fit.
gonzan said:
Flyfisher,
I would like to hear your responses to the research. I agree the Toronto newspaper article was not well written, and very poorly cited. Months ago I looked into the topic and found that there are multiple genetic studies that verify the mixed genetic population. That ongoing scientific research is conducted at least by Trent University, the New York State Museum biology research dept., as well as the Maine Dept. of Inland Fish and Wildlife. I am hesitant to disregard the studies of venerable institutions without substantiating cause.
so the yelling and commotion you caused scared the off? or did they just wander off not phased by the yelling?
crazy story though.
Yeah, for whatever reason they ambled off. and didn't return. After that I lit a fire and didn't go back to sleep until I got home 3 days later. When I camp in the south, I prefer a hammock but I haven't had any run ins yet.
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