Goat attacks lead Olympic Park to urge hikers against peeing near trails

7:55 a.m. on July 9, 2011 (EDT)
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Date-line:  08 July '11

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/08/goat-attack-olympic-park-pee-trail

Hmmm .... For some reason, the link is not going to the story.   Just go to www.huffingtonpost.com ... use the search-bar to  scroll-around in the "weird news" .

The story is also in  www.weirdnews.aol.com     ... along with one about a woman in Ireland dying after having consensual sex with a dog ....  But, I don't think you want to read that.

In the  post-topic story, apparently something like the salt in our urine provokes aggressive behavior in male goats.

Kinda like when someone pees on our cornflakes,  I reckon.

I guess the hiker that got butted-off a cliff ( or gored ? ) back in April, I believe, ... was taking a leak when he was attacked.   What a way to go.

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                                           ~r2~

10:39 a.m. on July 9, 2011 (EDT)
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I guess that is one reason to stay slightly dehydrated on the trail (heh, heh).

11:39 a.m. on July 9, 2011 (EDT)
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Here's the link that should work.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/08/goat-attack-olympic-park-pee-trail_n_893454.html?ir=Weird%20News

Kind of reminds me about the rule in the middle of this quote that Yellowstone has:

If a pit toilet is not available, bury waste in a cat hole 6-8 inches deep and 200 feet away from campsites, trails, and water sources.

Urinate on rocks or hard surfaces so animals won’t dig or eat vegetation  trying to get the salts and minerals found in urine.

If you use toilet paper dispose of it in a pit toilet or pack it out.

If you use toilet paper? IF??  

11:53 a.m. on July 9, 2011 (EDT)
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Must be optional.  (File under "dingle-berries" &/or "klingons")

By-the-way (BTW ... Holy acronym, Batman !) --   The NEW, euphemism is now "bathroom tissue".   We must be politically correct, boys and girls.

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                                                  ~r2~

12:29 p.m. on July 9, 2011 (EDT)
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There is a movement (no pun intended) to not use toilet paper at all:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwmwxkD86Ec

2:06 p.m. on July 9, 2011 (EDT)
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The park service has now recruited goats to supervise the trails.

And if you do use TP be sure to use both sides to conserve energy

2:10 p.m. on July 9, 2011 (EDT)
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CWF said:

There is a movement (no pun intended) to not use toilet paper at all:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwmwxkD86Ec

 

Eewwwwwww ....'

What about cleaning under the fingernails, following this "new & improved method" ???

I always wondered  (?) what the aboriginal Americans used ....

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                                                 ~r2~

2:25 p.m. on July 9, 2011 (EDT)
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RM Goats are well known for showing aggression to humans on their trails and all animals are aggressive when humans get too close; this is not the same as the actual predatory behaviour concerning humans sometimes seen in bears. I would NEVER get close to a goat, especially a male and giving any wild animal lots of space is a very sound practice.

The attraction in the urine is not salt, it is the sexual pheromones contained in human secretions and excretions and, again, this will attract most animals, even "prey" species, such as deer. We are "mammals" and our sex hormones are very similar in chemical composition to those of other mammals, hence, their interest in our secretions.

4:12 p.m. on July 9, 2011 (EDT)
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I would guess that the goats are attracted to people's urine is because of "both" the salt content and the the sexual pheromones.  As far as asking us not to use toilet paper at all.  Good luck with that one.  Already I either carry it out or burn it at the campfire, usually burning it at the campfire.  I do not relish wiping my bottom with the leaf of a plant that is poisonous or one I'm allergic to.  It's Scott for all the way.

So the lesson to be garnered from this story is: "When hiking in the Olympic Peninsula, do not pee on a mountain goat".

4:39 p.m. on July 9, 2011 (EDT)
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Fortunately for me I am only tall enough to pee on pygmy goats.

Seriously though, I appreciate the info given and reasoning behind the rules.

I do use TP!

5:13 p.m. on July 9, 2011 (EDT)
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The salts contained in human urine will very quickly be diluted by ambient water and the fluvial action will disperse them to an extent that they are not an attractant to animals. They can attract animals IF and WHEN there is longterm use of a specific site for urination, however, it is the pheromones that are the primary attraction in this instance.

 

5:44 p.m. on July 9, 2011 (EDT)
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Hey Dewey,  I live on a small farm where I raise sheep.  As it's a small farm we quite often "pee" outside.  Almost always the sheep, and dogs come over to "check out what is going on over in the corner and  behind the tree".  It is usually a contest to see who gets there first before the "licking" begins.  No time here for the salts to disperse.  I would guess the same thing happens in the wild as we are always beign watched by the wild ones, just as we are always trying to watch for them.  When I was much younger some friends and I went on a backpacking trip that involved much drinking (no, not water).  When one of my buddy's drank to much after a wonderful dinner and threw-up, we put him to bed in his tent.  Upon return of about 10 min. a raccoon was just finishing the upchucked dinner and combined drink. He(she) would not let us back into the area before finishing.   They are watching and waiting and I would suspect that it is the combined salts, pheromones, and maybe other things that attract the animals, not just one thing.  I just went out and asked the sheep why they were so attracted, but recived no responce.  ;-}>

Note:  I have also noticed that the dogs are not attracted to the sheep urine and the sheep are not attracted to the dog urine.;-}>

7:05 p.m. on July 9, 2011 (EDT)
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My pee stank (stunk?) whenever I drank beer.   Why I quit.

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7:20 p.m. on July 9, 2011 (EDT)
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Apeman, yes, of course the concentrated, fresh urine will attract animals, that is part of my point here; the initial attraction there is  the pheromones, as they are dispersed by wind as "scent" immediately upon release in a human secretion. What I am trying to point out here is that IN THE WILD, the concentration of salts is not sufficient under the usual situation to act as an attractant at first, while pheromones do and are the major facilitator, if you like, of bringing animals together for various purposes.

I have spent some time watching wildlife while employed in government resource agencies and we have the largest population of RMGs in BC of anywhere on Earth. I do not and I doubt anyone does know all the variables involved in their attraction to each other and their various forms of aggression, however, it is well established in wildlife science that pheromones are major causes of behaviour in such animals.

Talking to sheep is fine, but, if those sheep are nervous, welllllll.................

BTW, my dogs and I have had a number of herding dogs and have one now, have always been very interested in the secretions of other animals and my champion Rottweiler bitch, lovesd to herd sheep. Me, I do not care for domestic sheep, but, love the indigenous species we have in BC and enjoy studying wildlife. One of the advantages in living in BC is the opportunity to do this and with more species than one can find time for.

7:37 p.m. on July 9, 2011 (EDT)
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Robert Rowe said:

My pee stank (stunk?) whenever I drank beer.   Why I quit.

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 Peeing or drinking beer?

8:40 p.m. on July 9, 2011 (EDT)
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CWF said:

Robert Rowe said:

My pee stank (stunk?) whenever I drank beer.   Why I quit.

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                                     ~r2~

 Peeing or drinking beer?

 Symbiotic relationship ....

Haven't had a beer since the BiCentennial.

~r2~

12:27 a.m. on July 10, 2011 (EDT)
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yea, I do get your point, my sheep are always nervous though they are very well fed from both all the grass I have as well as the excess bio mass from the garden.  Today was a good day to be a sheep as I was thinning out the garden they got swiss chard, mustard, collards, and everthing out of the cabbage family.  I believe there nervousness just might stem from the fact that they just don't know when I might eat one of them. So again I think it was a good day to be a sheep as I was not hungry for fresh lamb.

4:51 a.m. on July 11, 2011 (EDT)
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CWF said:

There is a movement (no pun intended) to not use toilet paper at all:

 

Several thoughts on this vid.

Concealing one’s cat hole is a good idea in uncrowned venues, or those where decomposition can occur within a season.  Unfortunately there are many venues, especially those at or above tree line, are chilly most of the year, or are in an arid climate where a cat hole and its contents can last for many years.  Screwy as it sounds I have researched this on my own cat holes digging up deposits left ten years prior.  In several instances the contents were still sufficiently intact to tell they came out of a cat hole.  This can be a real issue in areas that lack an abundance of good cat hole sites.  I have experienced the frustration of unintentionally mining down into some one else’s  abandoned cat hole too often.  It lead me to question the value of camouflaging one’s cat hole in these circumstances. 

About ten years ago I started noticing curious rings of small stones in areas you would select to dig a cat hole.  Sure enough a little digging exposed why the site was marked.   At that point I pondered the ethics of LNT versus warning others of subterranean biohazards.  These bull rings of stones over cat holes were seen mostly along major trail venues along the Sierra East Side and interiors accessed from there.  Personally I find this to be a curtsey, especially since they are in areas you wouldn’t normally traffic, other than to find your own cat hole location, and in any case a minimal alteration of the randomness in nature.

As for going paperless, I’ll pass!  I pack my duky paper out, so that is not an issue.  The guy with the water bottle spritz concerns me.  His system is the perfect vector for dysentery pathogens (hand to bottle to mouth).  Most cases of giardia and other alleged water borne backcountry illnesses are actually personal hygiene issues.  In this case our camper is handling his drinking water bottle with hands that were not sufficiently cleansed before touching the bottle.  I like washing up afterwards myself, but use a presoaked towel that never comes close to my eating and drinking implements.  And in any case I use bleach to sterilize both toilet and eating implements, and wash hands with soap and bleach thoroughly before cooking and after relief stops to further reduce contamination issues.  I can attest from a boy scout camping mishap that there are few more excruciating experiences than being forced to hike while in the grips of bad dysentery.  I would rather hike with a broken limb such is the misery.  My obsession other food and water hygene is such I usually appoint myself the cooking, water fetching and KP chores.  I guess this obsession makes me sound a little anal retentive...      

Ed

10:41 p.m. on July 11, 2011 (EDT)
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Robert Rowe said:

Date-line:  08 July '11

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/08/goat-attack-olympic-park-pee-trail

In the  post-topic story, apparently something like the salt in our urine provokes aggressive behavior in male goats.

Interesting.  Elsewhere I've read the suggestion that you *should* pee in your campsite when in bear country because bears don't like the smell of human urine.

Not that this has anything to do with goats, just sayin' :)

11:14 p.m. on July 11, 2011 (EDT)
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If that be the case ... I suspect it would be bad form to eat a lot of asparagus while hiking and camping.

Goats, bears, marsupials,  cockroaches,  platypussi  ... heck ... even other campers would probably have a problem with the smell of the urine.

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10:57 p.m. on July 12, 2011 (EDT)
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Bears probably like asparagus :).

 

1:05 p.m. on July 13, 2011 (EDT)
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arrrr peeing off the edge of a cliff is so much more fun.

2:29 p.m. on July 13, 2011 (EDT)
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So ONE person IN THE HISTORY of hiking gets killed by a stinking goat and now its a concern?

More hikers are killed by bee sting or lightning or heart attacks BY FAR.   I refuse to loose sleep over dying by goat. 

Of course now, if a goat kills me, I can't imagine what my friends will say. That will be an interesting gathering.

7:20 p.m. on July 13, 2011 (EDT)
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FromSagetoSnow said:

Of course now, if a goat kills me, I can't imagine what my friends will say. That will be an interesting gathering.

 I don't know you personally.   But, I have delivered several eulogies in my time, and would be honored to say something apropos, if you left your wishes known that Robert Rowe would do this kind deed, on behalf of a fellow hiker.

Now ... will you want your trekking-poles left in a crossed configuration, instead of a headstone ... or, would you want your ashes tossed into the four winds (or less number of winds) ?

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10:37 a.m. on July 14, 2011 (EDT)
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Great idea! What an awesome thing to volunteer for! LET THIS SERVE AS YOUR OFFICIAL INVITATION TO MY FUNERAL.

Feel free to enjoy yourselves at the after-planting social.  Tell stories, laugh and joke about the guy who swore that he would fear no goat.

Use my passing as an excuse to gather together and tell tall tales of manly adventures.  Of course finish the day with a hike to someplace profoundly cool.  I'll leave the details to be finalized later.

Use my ice axe as a headstone.

Sounds like a good post to discuss: What kind of funeral would you like?

 

 

7:13 p.m. on July 14, 2011 (EDT)
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FromSagetoSnow said:

Great idea! What an awesome thing to volunteer for! LET THIS SERVE AS YOUR OFFICIAL INVITATION TO MY FUNERAL.

Feel free to enjoy yourselves at the after-planting social.  Tell stories, laugh and joke about the guy who swore that he would fear no goat.

Use my passing as an excuse to gather together and tell tall tales of manly adventures.  Of course finish the day with a hike to someplace profoundly cool.  I'll leave the details to be finalized later.

Use my ice axe as a headstone.

Sounds like a good post to discuss: What kind of funeral would you like?

 

 

 My body will likely never be found ... and/or recovered.

I have come fairly close to death on a surfboard a few times.   Riding pretty gnarly, mountainous waves during hurricanes.

I participated in a "surfer's funeral" once.   The lad DID NOT die surfing; was cancer.   It was a cool event.   His brothers and I took his ashes in an urn, out beyond the breakers on our boards, along with about 50 other surfers.   We formed a large circle ... sitting on our boards and facing toward the center, where one of the brothers opened the urn and cast the ashes into the water.   We all paddled through the muddled ashes, and smeared them on our chests.   Then, rode the biggest waves into shore.   There, a memorial service was said and performed.

It was on the cover of "SURFER" magazine.

BTW -- I am a "TAPS" Bugler.   I play at dozens of memorial services for veterans and fallen-heroes, especially at Memorial Day and Veterans's Day.   At Veteran's Cemeteries, with a lot of 'pomp and circumstance'.

My regional-director and co-ordinator, as well as my mentor ... is Jari Villaneueva, who is the guy that plays at Arlington Nat'l Cemetery for all the events.

I'd be pleased to play at your funeral ... does not matter if you are a veteran.

How about Herb Alpert's ("Tijuana Brass") "The Lonely Bull" ??

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7:19 p.m. on July 14, 2011 (EDT)
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That sounds like a powerful funeral.

Not a vet, but a former cop. 

10:07 p.m. on July 20, 2011 (EDT)
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Since the goats are not native to the park or the area I'll just keep peeing on the trail, thank you very much!

8:58 p.m. on July 27, 2011 (EDT)
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Well !

Since I started this thread a few weeks ago, we have had more "headline"-producing tragedies in the "backcountry":

Being swept over waterfalls

Mauled by bears

This one in this post-topic, being butted-off a cliff while taking a whiz, is probably the more unique one of the lot.

I'm certain more will follow.

Probably another mountain-lion attack in California hills.  (Didn't one occur in Southern California a few years ago?)

Remember that guy (and his girlfriend) that thought he could live amongst the Griz?   ... until, one of them (the Griz) put an end to THAT experiment.

Doughnuts, anyone ?

                                                    ~r2~

12:12 a.m. on July 28, 2011 (EDT)
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I love bear claws.

 

6:24 a.m. on July 28, 2011 (EDT)
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Rick-Pittsburgh said:

I love bear claws.

 

 Heh-heh ...

Funny guy, Rick.

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10:25 a.m. on July 28, 2011 (EDT)
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I laughed :)

1:21 p.m. on July 31, 2011 (EDT)
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I just occurred to me that it is well-known in the regional agriculture community where I live, that pee'ing on an electric fence is NOT RECOMMENDED.

                                                    ~r2~

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