The KNIFE for beginners

2:09 p.m. on February 28, 2013 (EST)
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I do not consider myself a master in the knowledge of knives. I had extensive study in the CORPS with knife fighting and safety. And teach in my sons scout troop on tech and safety with blades. I wrote this thread to help with those that might not have the knowledge of knives. Enjoy.

I've heard alot of points of view on alot of subjects to help out the up and comers. Many that are getting into hiking, maybe stepping up from the day trips to the multi-day hikes. They all seem to worry about their other gear. The packs, the bags, stoves, and boots. I don't see many people worry about one of the most important tools you can have on you. Your knife. I'm sure there will be many points of view that everyone will have when it comes to this subject. And I'm sure there will be those that will not agree with me.

These days a lot of people are leaning toward a good multi tool. Thats cool, I myself carry one. But there is NO multi tool on the market today that will compare toe to toe with a good quality full tang knife. And with the market being bombarded with so many choices, a beginner might not know where to begin. So, I thought I would start a thread to begin a subject we should all know head to toe.

Remember, a larger knife cannot do the small things you may need. And a smaller blade cannot do the larger jobs you may find yourself confronted with. A good full tang blade between 4 to 6 inches will do any job.

First off, when I say a full tang knife; that means the blade and the handle itself is one solid piece. So, that pretty much throws the rambo style (stuff a bunch of matches in the handle) out the window. And a compass as a pummel will get you no where in its use. A pummel is ther to substitute a hammer. Period.

With saying that, your knife should have a pummel. Its the part at the base of the knife below the hilt (or handle). It should protrude slightly. Many come in a vary of style pummels. I prefer a flat pummel that can be used as a hammer if needed. Some come with what they call a glass breaker. That might work if your ever trapped in a car about to be submerged in a lake. But, how many times will you use it in the field?

(Though there are more styles of blades, I will only cover the most available and used)

Third, you have many options on blade style.*Clip point (which tends to be very popular) has of the sharper blades at the tip. But, also the weakest. Most are Hollow Ground blades, which also makes them easy to sharpen. But the edge doesn't hold as well and tends to chip during hard use. *The straight back, much like the look of you basic kitchen knife. The back of the blade is straight all the way to the point. The cutting edge curves upward. It sharpens well, holds a good edge... but presents a weak tip due to the spine thinning as it reaches the end of the blade. *The tanto style blade, much like the end of the Katana. Has become very popular for its strength and durability with the military. Its draw backs are complication in sharpening. And not the best in doing tasks like skinning or other small applications. (just for the record, a double edged blade will serve no purpose for an outdoorsman or backpacker) * Drop point blade, much like the clip point but with the spine at a convex angle. Making it a much stronger blade, but with the ability for edge retention. Drop points tend to be flat ground, making the edge much stronger than a hollow ground knife.

The next to consider is serration or not? To me serration is only good for cutting rope. Other than than you give up an inch to inch and half of cutting edge.

My go to knife has always been a drop point flat ground knife. The edge retention is always there, ease of sharpening, strength and durability, and the drop point can take on the smallest of tasks.

Then you are confronted with stainless steel, or carbon steel. Stainless takes longer to get a good cutting edge, and the retention is low with heavy use. Carbon is easy to sharpen and holds its edge very well, though takes up keep by keeping it oiled.

With saying that, everything else is up to preference. These are a few blades on the market that have a great reputation in the knife community.

I myself being a BeckerHead will always put the BK2 first in line.

http://www.amazon.com/Ka-Bar-Becker-BK2-Campanion-Fixed/dp/B001N1DPDE/ref=sr_1_5?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1362074178&sr=1-5&keywords=fixed+blade+knives

Any of the small Esse brands are great knives

http://www.amazon.com/Knives-RC-4P-Plain-Micarta-Handles/dp/B004GALN0G/ref=sr_1_20?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1362077458&sr=1-20&keywords=esee+fixed+blade+knives

The Onterio Rat 5 is a great blade

http://www.amazon.com/Ontario-8627-RAT-5-Knife-Brown/dp/B000R30XAC/ref=sr_1_5?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1362077458&sr=1-5&keywords=esee+fixed+blade+knives

A cheap yet always reliable blade is Mora Knives

http://www.amazon.com/New-Swedish-Mil-Mora-Knife/dp/B004TNWD40/ref=sr_1_17?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1362074178&sr=1-17&keywords=fixed+blade+knives

Though the Tom Brown Tracker was viewed as the go to knife for many outdoorsmen, I retired mine after purchasing the BK2.

http://www.amazon.com/Knives-Brown-Tracker-Micarta-Handles/dp/B004H6BB6K/ref=pd_sim_sbs_sg_24

 

 

4:01 p.m. on February 28, 2013 (EST)
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Those are all great knives you listed.

My wife and I raise or hunt all the meat we consume, and we butcher it all ourselves as well. This, combined with a lifelong fascination with blades of all types and outdoor pursuits had certainly honed my blade choices. But, I’m also kinda cheap and I will not drop fifty bucks on a bit of gear when a ten dollar bit will do. The knives I have wound up using for butchering chores are indeed the Mora. I vastly prefer the stainless steel over the carbon blades, and I prefer the molded plastic handle type instead of the more traditional round wooden handled Moras.

They also work well for woodcraft chores and are certainly robust, but it must be mentioned that these knives have single bevel Scandinavian grinds. They are unusually keen, but the edge is somewhat delicate compared to traditional double bevel edges.

For general purpose knock about wood craft, boot knife and what-not blades, I like some of the inexpensive Cold Steel knives. The Finn Bear and Roach Belly in particular are favorites of mine and I have used them heavily.  


20RBC_m.jpg

http://www.coldsteel.com/Product/20PC/FINN_BEAR.aspx


20RBC_m.jpg

http://www.coldsteel.com/Product/20RBC/ROACH_BELLY.aspx

But for backpacking?

My standard blade for a very long time for backpacking has been a simple lightweight lock back folder. The one that I have carried for close to a decade now is a Gerber LST. This is also the knife that rides in my pocket every day, all day, everywhere I go, so I guess you could say it is my EDC choice.   

The Gerber LST is a fantastic backpacking blade. Mine weighs only 1.2 ounces and it is a surprisingly robust, compact and useful blade. I do not hesitate to carry only this blade on week long backpacking trips in the high country, and I’ve never needed “more knife”.   


P3190007.jpg

http://www.gerbergear.com/Essentials/Knives/LST-Knife_46009

Another popular backpacking knife, indeed, perhaps the “classic” backpacking knife, is the Swiss Army Classic.


51ifpftpMbL.jpg

http://www.amazon.com/Victorinox-Swiss-Classic-Pocket-Knife/dp/B00004YVB3

This little thing is .8 ounce, and does pretty much everything a backpacker usually needs to do. I love the scissors and they see a great deal of use. I also like the nail file blade and have used it as a screw driver as much as I’ve used it as a file. The small blade is very sharp and is fine for opening food packages, cutting cord, tape, slice food and what-not. It also carries tweezers and a toothpick, and the tweezers at least, get lots of use. 

It does not have a can opener, so I typically add a G.I. P38 type can opener to the key ring. Not that I typically carry canned food, but it is nice to be able to open cans if I buy some food at a resupply stop.  

  Without the diminutive Classic, how does one trim hangnails, file ragged nails smooth, cut tape and mole skin neatly, pull splinters and the like?Sometimes this little tool rides in my first aid kit.  

 It probably sounds silly, but I have carried both the Swiss Army Classic and my Gerber LST on backpacking trips! Total weight is 2 ounces for the pair. The LST rides in a pocket and the Classic in the backpack. 

My wife has carried a Swiss Army Tinker for about twenty years. This is her pick for backpacking and EDC. I can’t deny this is a fantastic knife, but it is “heavy” at 2.2 ounces and does not have a scissors or wood saw, two things I’d like to see on a Swiss Army knife of this size.


8826992590878_SAK_1_4603__S1_22409_eps_1

http://www.swissarmy.com/us/product/Swiss-Army-Knives/Category/Do-It-Yourself/Tinker/53101

Generally, I don’t see the need for a “heavy” fixed blade knife on a backpacking trip, but there have been times I have carried one. I once did carry a Mora on an across Iceland cycle tour, primarily for cleaning fish. The Cold Steel Roach belly is about 2.6 ounces, and is a good pick if one thinks they need a fixed blade for fuzz sticks, batoning wood or the like.

An interesting fixed blade I haven’t tried yet is the Cold Steel paring knife, 1.2 ounces with a 3” blade. I’d have to make my own sheath which would add an ounce or two of weight though.

This might make a good light weight knife for someone that simply has to have a fixed blade knife.

   
59KPZ_m.jpg

http://www.coldsteel.com/Product/59KPZ/PARING_KNIFE_(KITCHEN_CLASSICS).aspx

 

5:31 p.m. on March 1, 2013 (EST)
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I'm wit EtdBob when it comes to the knives I use. In several decades of backpacking, the only knife I've ever needed is a small multi-bladed jackknife. 

The one I've been using for the past few years has a single 2" SS blade, screwdriver/bottle opener, can opener, a corkscrew, scissors, Phillips driver and nail file. I've never used the nail file, can opener, bottle opener or corkscrew, but the Phillips driver is good for adjusting the tension on hiking poles.

I've been trying to find one of a similar size in a Swiss Army knife, but they don't make anything that small. 

5:48 p.m. on March 1, 2013 (EST)
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EtBob:

I carry a Victorinox model similar to your wife's choice, except instead of the Philips head driver I have this gaff hook that looks like a small version of a Navy jet tail hook, and also have a scissor and cork screw (I likey my wine).  I think the gaff is used in combination with the awl and are intended for leather repair (joining hides with thong).  I used the hook only once, but I was glad I had it – I overloaded my pack and the hip belt tore loose from its mounting point on the lumbar pad.  I agree the scissor gets used perhaps more than the other tools.

I don't like using the screw driver option, however, as significant torque will eventually loosen the rivets that hold everything together.  I carry a small screw driver shank when such a tool seems necessary.

The one thing that used to drive me nuts about the Victorinox models was losing the plastic pick and tweezers!  That and the spring on the scissors would sometimes break.  It turns out Victorinox sells replacement parts for a pittance, so now I have a lifetime supply of these items.  Me happy.

I used to carry a larger knife, but found I really didn't have the need for such weight.  I do however optionally bring a small and light fillet knife when fishing (pan size high Sierra trout), or a small, light French knife when cooking requires a lot of vegetable prep work. 

I am not a blade freak - some guys love their blades - for me knives are just tools.  But I do appreciate a sharp edge.  You can shave with all of my knives.

Ed

6:16 p.m. on March 1, 2013 (EST)
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Interesting stuff guys, thanks.

 

I also carry the V Classic, actually on my key chain. It's amazingly handy and not just on the trail.

 

7:30 p.m. on March 1, 2013 (EST)
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If I was in the market for a new pocket knife for backpacking I think I'd be looking real hard at the Wenger Evolution 17 -
41dSK4ZaQhL._SL500_AA300_.jpg
I've always wanted a swiss army knife with saw, scissors, cork screw ( I also like wine! ) can opener and tweezers. This knife has an extra blade or two but I find I do use the nail file, and I'd probably use the screw driver / cap lifter now and then ( good excuse to buy some good beer).

A tad heavy at just over three ounces, but it offers a few functions over my Gerber LST and Swiss Army Classic combo.  

Maybe I'm just talking myself into buying a new knife, but this thing looks dang near perfect to me.  

 

8:26 p.m. on March 1, 2013 (EST)
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EtdBob, it looks perfect to me too. That's the one I've been looking for. I have an old Swiss Army Classic, but the scissors are busted and the blade is nicked...so. Thank you! Perfect! Love the little saw.

Years back I flew to Nova Scotia with just a backpack as carry-on, so no big knife. Nice Army/Navy surplus store in Halifax, though, so I went there before heading to the woods. Found a really sharp and very lightweight 6" knife with a plastic sheath. It had a small serrated section near the handle, so looked like it would do the kindling prep, cord cutting, fish cleaning and various little chores I needed it for. Bright blaze orange handle, so I wouldn't lose it. Whatever, ten bucks, it'll get me through.

It was a Mora Viking. I'd never heard of Mora at the time and thought I was buying the dollar-store equivalent of a knife. A one-trip disposable. Wrong-o. Still have it, carry it every trip. Mind you, I'm not prepping firewood with it. I'll carry a Bahco saw and/or a little hatchet for that.

8:57 p.m. on March 1, 2013 (EST)
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I carry a Swiss Army knife while hiking; the Climber model.  It's all I've ever needed.  And for the past three years or so, I also carry - don't laugh now - a $1 Kmart folding knife.  It weighs almost nothing, has a nice belt clip, and more importantly, I don't have to worry about it.  Beat it up, cut cans, stab rocks, whatever.  Trash it or lose it, it's only a dollar to replace it.

12:00 p.m. on March 2, 2013 (EST)
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I think the last Swiss Army style knife I had was when I was in cub scouts. We do alot of bushcrafting though. We never use tents, many times we erect natual shelters. Much of the areas we trek there is an abunance of bamboo. I love that stuff. One mild swing with my blade and its done. If you don't find yourself using your knife much, maybe a Swiss Army is for you. But even the best top of the line folders can put out only so much. Then snap, now you have a blade and a handle. There is absolutly no substitute for a full tang knife.

Remember, I'm not pushing for some John Holmes blade guys. Four to six inches is the magic blade. I'm just saying there is nothing my knife can't do. I keep it razor sharp. And it's never let me down. Battoning, skinning, splitting kindling, just about anything you can imagine. But, there are multiple thing a pocket folder just aren't intended for.

If I could only take one piece of gear with me and nothing else. It would be my blade. The Glock would be left behind along with my pack and every thing in it. There was a reason that most Native cultures viewed that same importance. And with all the importance put on gear and the upgrading of such. Your second item of choice should be a cantainer that can be boiled in.

On many of the other threads on here. We all tend to talk about become too sure of ourselves. This is one of those times. On more times that we can mention here, faith in tech can result in unforseen death. As I said before the only thing the Swiss Army has up on my blade is the wine corkscrew. And if thats one item you feel you most have, I'm deeply sorry for you and your family if your faced with becoming Bantha Fodder. 

1:53 p.m. on March 2, 2013 (EST)
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Plenty of choices suit yourself.  For butchering animals I am particular and like a decent sized fixed blade knife of carbon steel.  For construction you need heft and strength.  for everything else, small is usually good.

2:59 p.m. on March 6, 2013 (EST)
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Sorry to disagree about the small blades. Swiss Army knives are novelty trash. And there is nothing I cannot do with my BK2, other than the corkscrew. But I'll take a real knife over a kitchen drawer item anyday. There are hundreds of things a swiss army toy cannot do. My take is if your favorite item in your knife is scissors, then you have no idea how to use a knife. Maybe thats why they were issued to officers rather than soldiers during war time. Soldiers had to know how use a knife. The officers would cut thier hands open trying to use a real knife.

What you spend on a blade makes no differance. Hell, if you have the tools to do so... make your own to suit yourself. But, a full tang fixed blade is a must. A pocket knife will not do the things needed if you need it to step up to the plate. Regardless if its a $3 wally world special, or a $150 gimmick.

5:00 p.m. on March 6, 2013 (EST)
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 a full tang fixed blade is a must. A pocket knife will not do the things needed if you need it to step up to the plate

 

Really? A must for what? Backpacking?

What exactly are you saying that a beginnner backpacker must be doing with his sturdy fixed blade knife? 

Now I'm not trying to argue with you and I certainly like a good sheath knife myself and own more of them than I do folding knives, and I agree a decent 4" to 6" inch rugged blade is a great basic survival tool, ( I'm wearing a Glock 17 and Cold Steel Finn Bear as I type this at work on my lunch break ) but remember, this is a forum about Backpacking, not bushcraft or survivalism, and your posting this in the Beginners area. You are essentially telling all beginner backpackers to go out and buy a heavy sheath knife because they simply dare not step out into the woods without one!

That's fine I guess, it's just your take on the subject, but I think the majority of us will disagree with this.

To each his own of course, but a properly prepaired backpacker already has his shelter in his pack, be it tent or tarp, complete with stakes, ropes and perhaps poles, so has no need for chopping up the scenery to produce shelter.

Most backpackers use a stove of one type or the other or simply eat cold food. Of course many folk do use a fire now and then ( I know I do, although I always carry a stove ) or even use a fire as their primary method of cooking food, but here again, the cooking fire needed is tiny, so again there is usually no need for hacking up dead standing trees to produce the tiny fires needed.

Batoning wood to get at the dry inner core or simply to reduce larger chunks to smaller splits is mostly a job for a fixed blade knife, and this technique does have its uses.

But again, a properly prepaired beginner backpacker should not have to rely upon his skill at making a fire in the rain to save his life.  

And indeed, in todays heavily used backcountry, using bushcraft skills to make shelters and what-not isn't a good idea. If we all chopped up the scenery every time we went out, there would be little left of it!

The Leave No Trace ethic is very important because there is little back country left, and more and more hikers, hunters, bushcrafters, backpackers, and what-not squeezed into the remaining Green Places left all the time. 

In many places such as the Grand Canyon, a backpacker isn't allowed to make any fires or chop up the vegitation for lean-tos. What good is your heavy knife on a backpacking trip down there?

Many thru hikers have walked thousands and thousands of miles with just the smallest of folding knives. Ray and Jenny Jardine, who have backpacked 25,000 miles or more together, recomend nothing more than a Swiss Army Classic, with the single exception of if one is cooking over fires and traveling in consistently wet weather, in which case Ray recomends a small fixed blade knife ( And he sells 4" Mora knife kits ).

Andrew Skurka, who has also hiked some 25,000 or so miles, carried only a Victorinox Classic on his epic around Alaska hike/ski/raft trip.

Your Beker BK2 is probably a fine knife, but it weighs about a pound! I'd never even think to carry one backpacking. A whole pound? I have several shelters that weigh less than that.  

An important lesson that every beginner backpacker must learn is what to take and what to leave behind. A backpacker must learn to travel as light as possible, yet still have everything needed for saftey and a little comfort.

Heh, you remind me of my young nephews -

I take them backpacking and tell 'em to each bring a sharp pocket knife. They show up with enough implements of mass destruction to clearcut half the forest – Each brings huge "survival" knives as well as massive folding knives weighting at least a pound, smaller pocket knives with disposable blades, and a hatchet!

But I remember when I was that age, and was inseparable from my favorite bowies, daggers and machetes so I just laugh and let 'em lug all that dead weight along.

And of course on the trip they never get to use anything except the pocket knives -

  

 Edit -

Oh, and if you need to open a bottle of wine with your BK2, carve or cut a nice thin but stout stick that will fit inside the bottle neck. Then using the butt of that heavy knife or better yet a stone and that bit of stick, hammer the cork into the bottle! You can’t re-cork the bottle though, so drink away….

 

   

 

 

 

    

 

  

9:32 p.m. on March 6, 2013 (EST)
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EtdBob,

Sorry to disagree with you man. My knife does rain in at a pound, but how much does your bottle of wine? As I'm sure you know, there are many things that can happen in the outdoors. And if I was ever sepperated from my gear (regardless of a canoe dunk, loss of certain tools, forgetting to pack items, or just losing your way from camp) I know how important this one item is. I'm not saying ever one should trek like me. And I'm fully aware of certain laws in states when it comes to fires, and "destruction of habitat". But, if need be... those laws go out the window in certain situations.

I'm not telling all beginners to go out and buy a heavy knife. If that was the case I would have never listed the Mora. I'm only speaking the importance of an all too often overlooked tool. Many beginners seem to worry about much more of the other gear there is to choose from. The list of knives I posted was to just be a reference. I'm only bringing the basics to the table man. The difference in blade styles, and types of steel.

And I'm sorry to hear about your nephews making a backpacking trip into a "go to war excursion". Thats typical for alot of younger people. I've had friends and family pull the same thing. And it doesn't take long for them to learn what they need and what they don't. I used to carry a pocket knife. But, now that I've found the right blade for me... it stays at home. I have a multi-tool that is on my molle pack, but I might have used it twice. Everything I do while in the bush or in my backyard, my BK2 is the go to item. I carry it with me everywhere I go. From the biggest of tasks to the smallest. If you look at my profile I have a photo of a spoon I carved with it. If it can do that small of a job, slice through wrist thick bamboo with a single swing, make kindling, and batton firewood... why carry anything else?

10:45 p.m. on March 6, 2013 (EST)
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Oh dear..... I run the gammet from obsidian chip to 1.5 pound bowie, and which depends.

Some where between one and the other are all sorts of knives, some stone with deer leg bone grips, to a mini I forged that is 2.5 inches long with a 3 finger grip is all and for 2 fingers they hold a sheperds hook.

Copy and past this link I hope

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll275/Mac_Muz/Knives/hatknife.jpg

This one lives in the hem of a balmora hat i made (yeah i sew) This little bugger is harder than a 20 penny nail but will slice 9/16" bull elk neck like a hot knife in butter. I use it to cut threads and to cut elk neck to make soles on knee high moc boots. To sew these soles on I need a drill motor and 1/8th drill bit LOL, and yet this little blade zips right thru that elk.

That bowie is shaving sharp, and i wouldn't have it except i found it in a stone celllar hole during a construction project and created a moose antler slab grip and brass quillion. Perhaps if you tinker around in my photobucket you will see that with it's black walnut case and copper belt hook.

I carry the swiss knife too, which can and will be repaired by those people if the knife is sent back for a with in reason fee.

I also carry assorted leatherman tooks depending of which weight and what gear i got.

 I don't carry the Bowie to back pack, but i don't carry the swiss knife to split kindling or shave. I never did like stainless blades for much.

The sharpest things I have are in fact obsidian blades which will divide flesh on the molecular level. That is scary sharp, and so sharp you don't know you have been cut until you discover red fluids.

Just as laser was entering eye surgery obsidian blades were entering that too. Laser won, because it doesn't cut at all.

 

Last back packing isn't bush crafting.. each has it's place. And neither are Buck Skinning, and that has it's place too.

 

on edit: cool my link works

12:35 p.m. on March 7, 2013 (EST)
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Knives are personal.  More personal than most equipment or even most tools.  It is a waste of time to talk about THE knife, or THE anything else.

A skilled flintknapper can make an obsidian knife on the spot as useful as any modern knife.  They get dull and are disposable.

Thoreau had it right.  You can work at a job to earn money to buy a train ticket to go somewhere.  Or you can walk there for free and forget about the job.  Some people like $600 jackets and special knives.  They work a lot and use that stuff to make up for their lack of time off.

11:44 a.m. on March 8, 2013 (EST)
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ppine if you got obsidian (I don't) The first break will be the sharpest. I do knapp.

That rock type is very nice and usually very bright even if it is black because it is just natural glass.

It isn't really in my line up of great rock, because it is glass. I prefer tool stone that is harder than glass and harder than carbon tool steel. That how we get FIRE. Flints and Cherts are harder than glass and carbon steel.

Anyone who may try this should wear protective gear. A leather apron , gloves, eye goggles and some form of breathing device from a wet cotton rag to a real respirator should be used.

This stuff is 400 times sharper than the best of the best steel. if you get cut you won't feel it at first until you see red.....

If you get any in your eyes you probably will loose your eye(s).

breathing it isn't very good to do.. A lot of stone workers have dies of 'White Lung' which is silica sand dust they breathed in. That is sharp too.

2:15 p.m. on March 8, 2013 (EST)
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Sweet. I think I could get into that myself. We have crap as for as rock goes down here. Can you still get a spark off of obsidian the way you can flint and steel?

3:19 p.m. on March 8, 2013 (EST)
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i have a couple of knives that i use for different things.  

whether you decide on a fixed blade like the OP suggests, or a folding knife that's probably a bit smaller and lighter, safety first.  my one beef with some swiss army knives is that you can't lock the blades.  that is a deal breaker for me with any folding knife.  with a fixed blade knife, i like having a handle or something to keep my hand from slipping onto the blade.  

i like the multi-tools with a pair of pliers because i have actually found those useful for some kinds of repairs; i usually carry a small length of baling wire, which is great for repairing backpacks and snowshoes that fail, and it's very hard to manipulate the wire without pliers.

other than that, so long as it cuts, it's probably fine.  i tend to buy for the long haul, so i'll spend a little more for a decent knife that i know i can keep for years, but that's purely personal preference.  

5:44 p.m. on March 8, 2013 (EST)
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Once again, I'm agreeing with EtdBob. Victorinex knives (and most other small pocket knives) aren't toys, but are solid general purpose tools that meet the needs of most backpackers. 

If you want to chop down trees there are many places that's not allowed, including national parks. And skinning an animal would also be prohibited.

As a tool for particular purposes a large knife can be handy, but if your goal is simply to walk through the forest for a few days, I think carrying a big sheath knife is more about self-image' than serving any practical purpose.  

11:57 p.m. on March 8, 2013 (EST)
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shenora1116 said:

Sweet. I think I could get into that myself. We have crap as for as rock goes down here. Can you still get a spark off of obsidian the way you can flint and steel?

 NO!  Obsidian is just natural made volcanic glass..... Glass is not harder than steel enough to sliver steel off steel. The sparks are burning white hot steel, not flint/chert. As close to you as i know there is black flint in Bledso St Pk in Tn, white flint in Kansas and Arkansas near council grove.

 

There is a gray flint in Tn but i don't know where. There could be flint closer and i just don;t know that.

If you research old careening grounds where sailing ships were set on shore to get cleaned from seaweeds and barnacle growth you may find flint ballast.

I would guess there are places like that nearer you, and they would have Amber French and Black English flint. I know one place in Maine, but collecting there in recent years seems to be taboo, and a place in NH which is now also frowned upon as if anyone could really do much with it from a historical or political point of view.

 

To knapp glass you can use any glass about.... broken beer bottle glass using the bottom will work fine. Then there is 'Johnny Stone' ;-) from toilets and sinks.

 

Tools should be round river rocks granite if possible, deer antler tines to push off flakes, some people i know go a bit more modern and will use a old rifle stock with a copper rod in a drill hole at the fire end to push with their shoulder and whole body about.

Striking either you should think about how a BB hit glass and breaks out that crater on the far side and you are taking a part of that crater not all of it.

Grinding after a strike with sand stone will decrease shelving or stepping which is impossible to to move.

 

Avoid steel metal hammers as they shock the glass/ flint/ chert too much. brass and copper hammers are best if you can't get rounded rock. 

Antlers work good too but unless these are pointy times they should be rounded and stay rounded by grinding.

 

I do not do this as jewelry quality like some other guys I know can, my work is for function, to make less expense for shooting flint locks and or to sharpen a flint/chert for a steel and fire making.

 

One of my favorite all around tools is a awl made of a triangle file with one side polished, which can act as a scraper, for sprues on round ball, the awl can make holes in most anything and the handle is a deer antler tine for sharpening gun flint. The steel end lives in a goose quill as the sheath.

 

Expect to fail a lot, In time you will learn from errors, don't breath this in and don't allow this in your eyes, avoid getting cut. If you get cut you won't feel it till after you see blood.

 

Little cuts are one thing... If you work a larger hunk of rock on you lap use a wooden board maybe with a 1x1 square to help hold the rock and or a leather apron like a black smith would wear to help tame shock and arrest a bad cut..... It can be like hammering on a battle axe in your lap, and I am sure you can see a problem with that idea...

 

In a more modern sense it might be like holding a running chain saw by the bar between yer knees while you adjust the idle speed! WHOA! 

 

That would be a problem huh? ;-)

12:04 a.m. on March 9, 2013 (EST)
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I've been using a Victorinox Soldier for quite sometime now and really like it. Just have to watch ya don't lay it down in the wrong spot being it blends in very well to a natural environment if ya get my drift.

V2-001.jpg

I also reviewed the knife here:

http://www.trailspace.com/gear/victorinox-swiss-army/soldiers-knife/#review23750

12:44 a.m. on March 9, 2013 (EST)
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peter1955 said:

Once again, I'm agreeing with EtdBob. Victorinex knives (and most other small pocket knives) aren't toys, but are solid general purpose tools that meet the needs of most backpackers. 

If you want to chop down trees there are many places that's not allowed, including national parks. And skinning an animal would also be prohibited.

As a tool for particular purposes a large knife can be handy, but if your goal is simply to walk through the forest for a few days, I think carrying a big sheath knife is more about self-image' than serving any practical purpose.  

I probably should not say this: 

Each tool serves a purpose. I can shave with my carbon steel antique Bowie, and in primitive camps i do if i feel like shaving.

A swiss knife isn't legal in a Primitive camp because we have only items to 1840, and I defy anyone to shave with that type of cheap stainless steel. You may scrap off your face trying, but you won't shave a whisker.

Cutting trees down in a National Forest depends.... For a buck I can take a live christmass tree, and they don't care how. I can use a swiss knife, I could use my bowie, I could use a chainsaw, hatchet, or axe but I usually use my North West Gun, and top a tree way up high taking the top 6 or 7 feet with a .60 cal musket ball.

Can't skin game in a national forest? First ever i heard of that. I skin fish, and fur bearers as i can in seasons and legally with nothing but hand forged carbon steel blades, and gut deer and birds when i get them.

Nothing goes to waste. 

 

I own several swiss knives but rarely carry one anymore as i favor leatherman tools with real pliers. However the steel in the blades is no better than the Swiss knife. I can't pick a hot pot off a stove with a swiss knife very well.

 

Back packing there is nothing to cut really, but Bush Crafting and Buck Skinning there is.

I do a lot of tree cutting and i don't use any knife for that. Usually i use a chain saw, but i own some fine classic axes that ring if you flick a fingernail on that steel. No Estwing will do that.

Axes like Collin's and Pexto are made of great carbon steel and still bring a high price for well forged machined steel made of something real by craftsmen that had pride, unlike today with cheap red commie chinese junk.

I also use old tools from the 18th century made for working wood as augers to build wooden benches, fro to split legs for benches or to make cedar shake shingles. There is nothing made like this in stainless steel today and for a good reason stainless won't do the job.

I agree most of modern man has no bee's wax running around in any forest hacking it to bits, or setting fire anyplace he wants, but there are still legal places for fire in remote areas, and it is still legal to take dead and down, and that carbon edged tools will never go away because there is no stainless tools that could ever replace them.

 

"Nothing goes to waste." in August 2010 I hit a jeep riding my motorcycle after 10 PM. The jeep made a sudden stop and no brake lights came on because the driver hit a moose to stop. That moose stopped that jeep right now fast too.

The moose was killed a bit after by the state police who shot that moose 9 times standing right next to it. Then the state decided that moose was good where it was laying in the head waters to the Chocorua water shed.

 

It was about 98 degrees here that night, and so i thought the moose would certainly go to waste. I was upset that this might be so, and I stayed involved, and found out what I have said is true and I found out private parties were not happy that this moose was spoiling in the waters. They decided to move the moose and i helped. We managed to get the moose on a flat bed truck and get it into a higher drier place in the forest away from water and away from people too.

I started to go back there wondering what would happen to that moose, and critters of all sizes came from all directions and bit by bit there was almost nothing left of that moose with in 3 weeks it appeared gone and unless you knew,  the only out of place thing was all the vegetation was mashed down.

National Parks: I went to one and they forced me back to my vehicle because i had a pocket clip folder in my pocket... I went to another and they sold me a like to same folder because by then on the same trip I had lost my folder.

Man's rules change on a whim as quick as power and influence does.

 

These days all tools are looking like they are hammers.

Trecking: This has a end date of 1840 as well. I do this in typical dress of the 1760's with only the tooling of the 1760's complete with flintlock guns, knives, axes, hatchets, and tomahawks. A tomahawk is a weapon and makes for a poor hatchet. i carry a bed roll of wool blanket in a oil skin cloth, and a haversack with parched corn and peas. I carry pemican, maple sugar rocks with a little flour in a gourd.

Sometimes i canoe this way in my WW-1 vintage Old Town Otka and of course i do not use a naptha stove for that.

 

Occasionally I have the misfortune to meet a 'Modern' and that is always interesting. Once I met a US Forest Service Ranger and he asked me who was president?  LOL

Why John Adams of course! That ranger thought he had seen a ghost.

 

That's nothing......... When i go native...... and a modern see's that usually someone calls the rangers and the COPS 


She-buck-Ona.jpg

of course no one believes the Modern.

1:56 a.m. on March 9, 2013 (EST)
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I dont carry it much in the woods, but I have a swiss officers model that is razor sharp. It will shave you for sure, I think the quality is better in the models made in switzerland compared ty o the newer us made ones. Has anybody used a knife made from aus-8 steel? Sog uses it in some of there products. I love it, great sharpening and edge retention, seems really durable overall.

10:33 a.m. on March 9, 2013 (EST)
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I bought my son a H&K folder for when he went to the sand box made of aus -8, but he is the one who uses it. he has been back a while after his year over there and the blade is well worn.

That knife was pretty sharp store bought new, but it wasn't as sharp as can be honed.

What is sharp is a matter of opinion all too much these days.

I guess to understand what is sharp one should consider starting with fresh break obsidian, because that is truely sharp.

It will divide on the molecular level.... No steel comes close to that. Put that stone's edge under a micro scope and you will see how sharp it is and or how jagged and saw like steel is.

Carbon steel will stand a sharper edge than stainless any day of the week, where what most people would say was sharp on stainless is a rolled over 'wire' edge. Under a scope it looks horrible.

What edge you want really depends... Are you spreading butter, or are you doing a face on a bob cat mount?

What if you are clearing saw palmetto on a building lot in Fla? It all depends. What if you are clearing out a swamp of dead cypress with the Govt Blessings in a wilderness area? Can't use a chain saw....

It all depends. I have take live trees as experiment that same way a Paleo Indian would, and in the same time he would 'WE' guess.

First with a stone hand held ax I made that has no handle other than a gob of leather to save my hand from shock, I removed bark on the tree. That killed the tree and I did it in Fall as the sap was going down.

The next year I built a fire around the base of that tree and it took several days of fires and chopping char with the same stone axe. It was a lot of hard work and it took a lot longer than it does today with a chain saw.

I do and deal with some things no one can buy....

I think it is wrong for so called modern man to condemn the old tools and the old ways so casually as he does. We came from that tech and by the looks of it we may well go back to that tech..

Not everything so called modern has worked out so very well either. Short sited gain for the quick buck seldom see's the reality of a product. Take DDT as an example.

Carbon steel has been around for 1000 years. Stone tools have been around 50,000 years and show no sign of going away soon. I am referring to computers and their silicon tech. That's right, we are all using stone tools in a different age. One could say laser was a stone age cutting edge because in someways it is.

Yeah I get strange, it's a fault i have learned to live with.

4:22 p.m. on March 9, 2013 (EST)
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I like readin your stories. Im not arguin carbon steel versus stainless, its not even a fair comparison if your talkin about the edge. Different formulas of stainless are better than others tho. I put my own edge on my steel, I have several types of whetsones, but I usually use a gatco sharpening kit. It allows me to select the proper angle for each blade and keeps the bevel the same for the length of the knife. I can get em really sharp, I promise.

1:11 a.m. on March 10, 2013 (EST)
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Oh I own a few ss folders, but these do garden duty, pry crates and cut cardboard. I don't care if i loose a 16 dollar knife.

I own all sorts of knives and 2 swords. The swords are for historical occasions, as are the dirks, and at these occasion there is nothing SS welcome.

Some blades I have are real antiques from the French and Indian War into past American Fur Trade. I have a boarding pike head but not the pole from the War of 1812 somewhere.

Everything in it's time and place ya know.

9:04 a.m. on March 10, 2013 (EDT)
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Lodge Pole said:

Oh I own a few ss folders, but these do garden duty, pry crates and cut cardboard. 

Just throwing it out there but the last thing you should do with a knife is use it to pry anything because of the following: 

  • The blade could snap unexpectedly.
  • The user could get hurt quite badly.

That is what a pry bar or wonder bar is for.

You may already know this but this is just a bad idea in general and I wanted to point it out so someone else out there(reading this thread) may not get hurt trying to utilize a knife for this purpose. 

Oh and being a carbon steel blade does not contain chromium they require quite a bit more care or the rust monsters will show up in a jiffy. 

I hunted for many years(no longer do) but I am going to go out on a limb and say that for common everyday use SS is a better option. 

No it may not get as sharp as a CS blade but then again a SS blade has field dressed any animal I have ever needed it too with no problem whatsoever, requires minimal if any maintenance in the field, and can be made quite sharp if sharpened correctly.

If I needed it I also carried a bone saw with me. 

I own a few knives(Puma White Hunter, a Boker Ceramic, a BUCK classic folder that  is very sharp, and others to name a few.)

For most general outdoor use any of these will do quite fine...

...well with the exception of the Puma being it is big, heavy, has a lot of sentimental value to me and is kept in a gun safe(more of a display piece for me than anything.) 

It is all dependent upon user preference as well as what the knife is being utilized for.

I also carry a camp axe with me. Typically to process kindling and feather it for camp fires if I need to but I also use it as well as a small saw for trail maintenance here in the ridges in SW Pa. 

Bigger stuff(downed trees) we always come back with a chain saw.

Different tools for different jobs.

They all have their pros and cons but they all serve a purpose.  

1:17 p.m. on March 10, 2013 (EDT)
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The crates I mean are cardboard with copper coated steel staples common to industrial shipping. The prying is usually just enough to grab these recessed staples enough to get em with side cutters.

I have been a mechanic on foreign cars 28+ years and a mechanic on just about anything else anyone can thing of as well, and a few things you can't. ;-)

i own a coal fired forge and do my own blades heat treating too, so there is a good chance I have forgotten a lit more about blades than most people will ever know.

Not trying to brag, but saying it is easy to forget what has just been basic for 1/2 a life time.

A rolling stone gathers no moss and a well used carbon blade won't turn black.

Because i am a Buck Skinner i have a slew of axes, hatchets and tomahawks, even Viking wood axes and war hatchets. I own maybe 40 tomahawks which are mostly hand forged steel.

Most of my pictures are on photobucket and not in this hard drive so pics of things are a lot of work.

I have to fight photobucket to get my pics back which isn't that easy for me. There appears to be a tricky sequence to get the selection of save image not save image link.

I am not from the PC generation... and those who are, don't read smoke! :-)

I make stone tools too..... If you want the sharpest sharp you have no choice but to go with brittle obsidian blades, Their runner up is Boker Ceramic. Don't bend that sideways....... ;-)

7:37 p.m. on March 10, 2013 (EDT)
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I love my boker ceramic, its a lot tougher than I thought it would be. Its my go to knife for food prep on the trail. Ive even been using it in the kitchen at home.

11:27 a.m. on March 11, 2013 (EDT)
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hotdogman said:

I love my boker ceramic, its a lot tougher than I thought it would be. Its my go to knife for food prep on the trail. Ive even been using it in the kitchen at home.

 So easy a came man can do it huh Hotdogman?  ;-)

I just live how 'modern man' is running smack dab back into the stone age....

9:25 p.m. on March 12, 2013 (EDT)
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Rick-Pittsburgh,

I don't advice many people try to use there knife as a pry bar either, but I have used my Becker a good many times doing this. We had a claw hammer we were using out at our camp that wasn't doing the job. So I busted out my BK2 and blew through it, tearing apart pallets we had collected for use at the camp. Most knives can't pull this off, but being at 1/4 inch thick on the blade it has no problems doing so. As I said in the begining, why carry multiple items if one can do it. 

As far as Stainless goes, I really don't like the steel man. It's pains out weigh the one perk of not rusting. I haven't had any problems with my CS. But then again, I keep up on it. With some of the heated coating coming off, I do have to oil it after every trip. A lil gun oil goes a long way. The main goal is to keep it dry. When I use it outside and its wet... I just make sure to dry it out before I sheath it.  

12:08 p.m. on March 13, 2013 (EDT)
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In use vegetable oil to oil knives I might eat with. That gets washed or scrubbed off with use and the blades get washed and dried, and re-oiled.

The antique Bowie i found in a cellar hole was rusty and pitted... I removed the rust but not the pitting. I added a guard and moose anther slab grips.

Modern man has no use of such a knife really anymore but if i could take a moose it would smash brisket easy enough.

I will admit doing wicked things to junk SS garden blades... if i break one I just go buy another and I have a box of these junkers now. More often screws fall out of the slab scales and i toss these in the trash.

Eastern Mountain Sports has a smaller fixed blade with some sort of metal match in the grip. I didn't handle that knife just looked thru the glass.

The blade has a Mora look to it, but i don't think it is a Mora. The blade looks like 1/8th flat stock with a V grind for the edge too. The solid rubber grip is checkered and attractive looking and is what first caught my eye.

There is something about rubber grips on a full tang blade I like for non slip when gutting and skinning. Mostly gutting, because before I skin I wash the knife and my hands too.

 When skinning I generally don't use a knife for long and only make 5 cuts of skin on deer. Most of the work after that is done by 'knuckeling' the flesh off for no cuts in a hide.

2:45 p.m. on March 13, 2013 (EDT)
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Lodge Pole said:

peter1955 said:

Once again, I'm agreeing with EtdBob. Victorinex knives (and most other small pocket knives) aren't toys, but are solid general purpose tools that meet the needs of most backpackers. 

If you want to chop down trees there are many places that's not allowed, including national parks. And skinning an animal would also be prohibited.

As a tool for particular purposes a large knife can be handy, but if your goal is simply to walk through the forest for a few days, I think carrying a big sheath knife is more about self-image' than serving any practical purpose.  

Cutting trees down in a National Forest depends.... For a buck I can take a live christmass tree, and they don't care how. I can use a swiss knife, I could use my bowie, I could use a chainsaw, hatchet, or axe but I usually use my North West Gun, and top a tree way up high taking the top 6 or 7 feet with a .60 cal musket ball.

Can't skin game in a national forest? First ever i heard of that. I skin fish, and fur bearers as i can in seasons and legally with nothing but hand forged carbon steel blades, and gut deer and birds when i get them.

You can cut down the trees in a national forest in the US? Not allowed here, nor is hunting or carrying a gun.

Back packing there is nothing to cut really, but Bush Crafting and Buck Skinning there is.

The point was made. We're talking about backpacking. There are all kind of fringe groups out there, including survivalists and the 'primitives' you're talking about. 

I always find it amusing to see the tourists who come to southern Alberta, paying thousands of dollars to camp out in a teepee under the stars, listen to ancient legends told by the natives who run the camps, and delude themselves into thinking they're living just like the Indians in a Louis L'Amour pulp fiction. The natives leave the tourists sleeping in the tents, while they go back to their cozy homes on the reserve in their pickup trucks. 

2:53 p.m. on March 13, 2013 (EDT)
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hotdogman said:

I dont carry it much in the woods, but I have a swiss officers model that is razor sharp. It will shave you for sure, I think the quality is better in the models made in switzerland compared ty o the newer us made ones.

 It's called a 'Swiss ARMY Knife', not 'Something to clean your fingernails with'. The metal is good and the quality of the manufacturing is equally good. Personally, I don't shave while hiking, but for 'Beginners' (see OP) a Wenger's knife (with or w/o lock blade or the extra gadgets) is more than sufficient. 

2:57 p.m. on March 13, 2013 (EDT)
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Once I met a US Forest Service Ranger and he asked me who was president?  LOL

Why John Adams of course! That ranger thought he had seen a ghost.

Did it ever occur to you that he might have been laughing inside? 

6:35 p.m. on March 13, 2013 (EDT)
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he was thinking "this guy is a nut".

6:40 p.m. on March 13, 2013 (EDT)
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in some forests you can get a permit to cut trees, but these are few and far between. you can also hunt in season in certain areas, again a rarity. it depends on politics and how the natural resources are doing. guns aren't illegal in the US, at least not yet.

10:26 a.m. on March 14, 2013 (EDT)
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peter1955 said:

Lodge Pole said:

peter1955 said:

Once again, I'm agreeing with EtdBob. Victorinex knives (and most other small pocket knives) aren't toys, but are solid general purpose tools that meet the needs of most backpackers. 

If you want to chop down trees there are many places that's not allowed, including national parks. And skinning an animal would also be prohibited.

As a tool for particular purposes a large knife can be handy, but if your goal is simply to walk through the forest for a few days, I think carrying a big sheath knife is more about self-image' than serving any practical purpose.  

Cutting trees down in a National Forest depends.... For a buck I can take a live christmass tree, and they don't care how. I can use a swiss knife, I could use my bowie, I could use a chainsaw, hatchet, or axe but I usually use my North West Gun, and top a tree way up high taking the top 6 or 7 feet with a .60 cal musket ball.

Can't skin game in a national forest? First ever i heard of that. I skin fish, and fur bearers as i can in seasons and legally with nothing but hand forged carbon steel blades, and gut deer and birds when i get them.

You can cut down the trees in a national forest in the US? Not allowed here, nor is hunting or carrying a gun.

Back packing there is nothing to cut really, but Bush Crafting and Buck Skinning there is.

The point was made. We're talking about backpacking. There are all kind of fringe groups out there, including survivalists and the 'primitives' you're talking about. 

I always find it amusing to see the tourists who come to southern Alberta, paying thousands of dollars to camp out in a teepee under the stars, listen to ancient legends told by the natives who run the camps, and delude themselves into thinking they're living just like the Indians in a Louis L'Amour pulp fiction. The natives leave the tourists sleeping in the tents, while they go back to their cozy homes on the reserve in their pickup trucks. 

  I did wonder where you were. CDN I see.

Yup, a USA National Forest IS The land of Many Uses. We the People own it. The Feds run it and tax the Hell  out of us for it.

For a buck I can take a X-mass tree. If I wanted I go see if i could 'win' any auction on land to be cut, which these days is a semi clear or selective cut, marked by a fed who does such work. The area will vary, and the contract must be filled.

Anyone can take all the dead and down they can carry. This counts wilderness where NO Engine of any kind often including pedal bikes are illegal, and outboard motors would be if boats are used in a wilderness area and that counts US Forest Service too. No machines means no machines. 

Hunting is legal with any guns that are state legal.

 

Natives do what natives do. City dwellers do what city dwellers do.. 

 

Once I sent a lot of letters back and forth with your Allen Rock. ;-(

Oh well Parks Canada looses.... good luck

 

10:47 a.m. on March 14, 2013 (EDT)
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I am speaking of the White Mountains National Forest, no other.

I don't know why a US Forest Service would ask me who was Pres?

If it matters any that day I was driving a spring wagon drawn by a horse wearing a frock coat tricorn, had a musket on the seat and a great dane dog sitting next to me on the seat with his paws on the floor sort of 1/2 laying down and 1/2 sitting.

I bet I had 4 carbon steel knives that day and 3 flint and steel sets, 2 compasses, a flint pistol, mocs in a haversack, pemican, dried peas, rock maple sugar and who knows what else certain salt and pepper and coffee.

I have friends who assist in making movies as Last of the Mohicans, Dances with Wolves and etc.

As far as I was concerned I was minding my own business, and the year was 1761. 

I assure you he took me as a ghost. Everyone does.

Maybe you both need a vacation to Williamsburg Va or Plymouth Plantation Ma.

Ft Louisburg has a bad problem with Parks Canada using park staff who know nothing of historical items.

That Pretty yellow gown in the FT is not a pretty yellow gown it IS a Silk Sack Back Polonaise gown search that on google if you like.

The 'mules were high heels for women to protect their real shoes, and Pk's Cdn screwed that up to. I am expert in garments for females! Been at that study all my life so far and I haven't stopped yet! (that's a joke)

Maybe this will help. Pks Cdn worked with Cdn History Channel. I was there with my wife,  and the first person you see is my WIFE.

Albert is the guy behind her.


Gwyn_voltigeur2.jpg

11:00 a.m. on March 14, 2013 (EDT)
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Trailjester said:

in some forests you can get a permit to cut trees, but these are few and far between. you can also hunt in season in certain areas, again a rarity. it depends on politics and how the natural resources are doing. guns aren't illegal in the US, at least not yet.

 It strikes me as you don't and probably never did hunt. NH is divided in to areas that covered every inch of the land inside the state border, and every inch is regulated, whether or not it is in a city. Whether or not it is legal to hunt anything in a city.

Private land matters and you can hunt private lands under state Law with permission. You can hunt just about anywhere you want in the national forest, but i would avoid most well traveled hiking trails even though they are are legal.

Guns will always be legal. The Govt has no real choice. The 2nd was not given by the Govt. The 2nd was given by a higher power than any Govt.

 

While it is possible to break laws and lose one's Right's.

 

With out hunters there would be no game, and not much wild life. The next time you see wild game you should thank a hunter.

 

The next time you need to be rescued in NH you should thank a Hunter too because it is we hunters who pay for that service.

 

Just think. I am a hunter and I pay for hikers rescue's and fight against trail fee's myself. Not only that but i have assisted in some mt rescues but ages ago.

 

Is it text and I am missing expression, or have i offended you somehow?

12:08 p.m. on March 14, 2013 (EDT)
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Just a quick reminder to everyone that a little courtesy and respect goes a long way. If necessary please review the Trailspace Community Rules and Guildlines to help follow both the letter and the intent. 

I think there is likely some of the classic miscommunication that is so easy to do in written conversation on the internet. 

-Gonzan
Community Forum Moderator

5:36 p.m. on March 14, 2013 (EDT)
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Lodge pole, its just miscommunication, cause everybody is typin not talkin. Some people on here arent gun friendly, they can read the thread or not... their choice. I love what you bring to this forum, im hopin to come north and hike/camp with you this summer. I really wanna see some of your primitive gear. Dont take anything to seriously that people reply in a forum concerning guns. This is nothing, go find my rescue in nh thread. Some real venom was flyin in that one, and yea it pissed me off, but I got over it. Everybody has opinions and some of them are like........

10:27 p.m. on March 14, 2013 (EDT)
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I don't see where I am out of line..... This poster user appears to have stated things in several posts i just don't agree with and i am just asking what if anything I did. If i did something wrong i don't know what it is.

I do own guns legally but i am not here to promote guns and so have no opinion of guns here really.

 

Hiking is a off shoot of both history and hunting, and each has it's place.

 

If they don't then hikers will be paying trail fees to hike sooner than later since fee's from hunting PAY for rescue ops in NH anyway.

 

 

11:19 a.m. on March 15, 2013 (EDT)
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Lodgepole, I appreciate you asking- the reminder wasn't intended to imply anything specific, or single out anyone. It really was just meant as a reminder, as the conversations had taken a more tense and potentially confrontational direction. I  thought a kind word up front rather than reprimands later might be preferable :) 

11:48 a.m. on March 15, 2013 (EDT)
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I will admit that in this so called modern age there is only one way to be it seems.

Only what is modern appears to count.

Anything of any past, history, hunting, trecking in 1760 , the War of 1812 where scouting was a form of hiking, is all discounted and we as a people of hikers have lost our past.

Perhaps i just don't fit.

However I can assure you the NH F&G is seeking trail fees for hiking rescue. So far these fees are paid by hunters. 

Modern man has made hiking political, and what is political always has fees, taxes, permits, and fines behind the nature of the thing.

Hikers have been getting off easy.

So blasting me because I may own items some people do not see as useful. legal (when it is by law) and i hunt and so pay these fee's, not only that have attended rescue in the whites, and all I do is mention history, bush crafting and old ways, that there are assorted other ways and i just get static, well then it says the hikers too are so far removed that the only survival tool they need I guess is the cell phone...

There is no room for assorted other ways...... 

I put in pics like that above of my WIFE, and not a word.....

Last night i sat with my wife, and chatted with Nick Howe who wrote' Not with out Peril'.

It's just another old book I guess these days.

 

It is obvious that because I spent more than 30 years at living history I am a  nutcase.... I think I understand now.

 

This sort of thing happens at events too, where lost modern man will ask things like..... Do you really cook on that fire? Where do you get aluminum? When I am sitting in a open field with no power working Trade Silver in real sterling or coin LOL wearing not a whole lot of clothing and much more paint.

Would any of these moderns know what the paint was for? I can tell you paint was not worn only for fighting or war....

Tourists will make comment as 'I bet when this hot day is over you will really enjoy a coke!' My reply is what is coke?

I have had a number of people tell me they took me as a ghost. I never tried to appear that way.

There is only one way, and no one knows any past... I must learn to remember this. What it is, just is...... I think I see now.

 


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1:12 p.m. on March 15, 2013 (EDT)
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No problem cutting or carrying here in MS. One of the reasons I do like it here. "The powers that be" are not all up in your face about what few rights you still have as an American. 

I don't believe in running through the bush cutting down, adn shooting at everything you see. Thats just ignorance. When we set up a camp in a National Park, it's one we end up going back to. Anything we cut gets use on many occasions. Anything we shoot, is done so to harvest for meat. We use everything the natural world has to offer. And we always leave the area clean and respectful. I don't understand how this is something that can enrage people. 

And I'm sorry pete1955, but it seems our take on knives will always be in conflict. Swiss Army is still gimmick trash to me. And real knives are simple minded and pointless to you. Everyone has a different take on the subject, but to say your talking about "backpacking".... ? ???? So am I dude. We just backpack in opposite ways man. If your calm and content with being dependent on a swiss army knife, regardless what situations arise to face you... good for you man. But, I would much rather have my knife at my side to face the unforseen. Its better to have it and not need it. Than to need it and not have it. But, then again as I've said before... its my go to. I always need it. The weight is not any issue for me. I don't carry stoves, propane bottles, tents, or other devices like this. So, by not carrying the typical gear; and cutting a couple sapplings for tarp poles... does that mean I'm not backpacking? It's funny to see that even when it comes to something as wonderful as the outdoors, we still have to find and put ourselves into some type of category. I'm sure no one on here is just in this to walk to and from a destination. It's all about getting there man. And its about the lessons you learn and things you teach yourself and other along the way. It teaches you who you are, and who you can be. We all walk the dirt in different ways. Whats the joy in being a clone?

3:36 p.m. on March 15, 2013 (EDT)
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Last night i sat with my wife, and chatted with Nick Howe who wrote' Not with out Peril'.

It's just another old book I guess these days.

It's definitely not just an old book to me, it is one of my favorites. I was enraptured by the accounts, and talked with my brother on end about them. 

9:55 a.m. on March 16, 2013 (EDT)
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gonzan said:

Last night i sat with my wife, and chatted with Nick Howe who wrote' Not with out Peril'.

It's just another old book I guess these days.

It's definitely not just an old book to me, it is one of my favorites. I was enraptured by the accounts, and talked with my brother on end about them. 

 He become will become 80 in April. 

Trying to sort out what hike and of course which knife go today. So many choices so little day light. Snowed last night. Only went down to 18.

Hope thar's no bugs! :-0

11:55 a.m. on March 16, 2013 (EDT)
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I haven't read that book, thanks for bringing it up as I will add it to my list.

Mike G.

 

4:11 p.m. on March 16, 2013 (EDT)
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I have to agree that this thread probably doesn't belong in the Beginner's forum and never did. Regardless of the OP's intention. I think he may have forgotten how little he knew at one time about any of this, knives or backpacking or any of it. If all you want to say is "don't write off a sheath knife just because they don't have a lot of accessory blades," then that's good advice for a beginner.

I myself like a 4 in. sheath knife, an old Western brand BSA knife with stacked leather handle. The mini Scout knife, not the full-size. It gives me options that I like to have, while being light enough and unobtrusive beneath the waistbelt on my pack.

Car camping, I often carry a Mora Companion. Fine knife, not very large, very lightweight, and inexpensive too. Larger than I would care to have beneath the waistbelt of a pack though, although come to think of it I've never actually tried it so shouldn't sound like I know what I'm talking about.

I know backpackers with a lot more experience than me who swear by one of the little SAKs -- the kind I have on my keychain. They claim it does everything they've ever needed to do while backpacking. I believe them.

A beginner with a Swiss Army Hiker or Tinker would be in fine shape IMO. They might find they preferred something else when they had some experience, but they might stick with it for a long time. I carried a Tinker for backpacking for many, many years before trying some other knives.

11:51 a.m. on March 18, 2013 (EDT)
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Lodgepole,

The old ways are the best ways.  I used to live in CO and WY where the Fur Trade Era is still a big deal.  A National Western Redezvous is an experience that I can highly recommend for any outdoor person.  Two hundred tipis, all camps have to be pre 1840.  You have to be in costume to be there after 5 pm.  An old guy was selling buffalo meat out of a grain wagon pulled by two Belgians.  Great trade goods. 

As a forester, I must comment on the use of National Forests.  Under several acts, timber is periodically harvested by private contactors that bid on tracts of live trees (stumpage).  It is a bid system and highly regulated to be sustainable.  Harvest levels were greatly reuced in 1991.  Part of our problems with wildland fires in the US are related to a lower level of cutting, overstocking of forests, protection from fire, and many other problems.

Cutting of timber is legal and so is hunting in Nat Forests.  Hunting is legal is wilderness areas, and usually so is grazing and mining but vehicles aren't.

Knife choices are as varied as any piece of outdoor equipment, so it should not surprise anyone that we don't have consensus about what works best.

 

3:31 p.m. on March 18, 2013 (EDT)
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ppine said:

Lodgepole,

The old ways are the best ways.  I used to live in CO and WY where the Fur Trade Era is still a big deal.  A National Western Redezvous is an experience that I can highly recommend for any outdoor person.  Two hundred tipis, all camps have to be pre 1840.  You have to be in costume to be there after 5 pm.  An old guy was selling buffalo meat out of a grain wagon pulled by two Belgians.  Great trade goods. 

As a forester, I must comment on the use of National Forests.  Under several acts, timber is periodically harvested by private contactors that bid on tracts of live trees (stumpage).  It is a bid system and highly regulated to be sustainable.  Harvest levels were greatly reuced in 1991.  Part of our problems with wildland fires in the US are related to a lower level of cutting, overstocking of forests, protection from fire, and many other problems.

Cutting of timber is legal and so is hunting in Nat Forests.  Hunting is legal is wilderness areas, and usually so is grazing and mining but vehicles aren't.

Knife choices are as varied as any piece of outdoor equipment, so it should not surprise anyone that we don't have consensus about what works best.

  I agree with all of that. That is the same type of Voo I do, just haven't been able to attend that one and assorted others in the far west....... yet.

 

Same deal by the same people pretty much. In fact there is 2 Nor' Easterns. One by the NMLRA and the other by the Brigade i am a part of, much like AMM.

 

I am returning to modern things for a time ... That's why and how i found and came to this site.

 

Modern ways are faster. In modern gear i can pack a whole camp on my back for 2. In the old ways I would need 3 horses to pack a camp well for 2 and still find dry wood at the days end.

 

On the old ways most people would be hunkered down and go out to trap and get meat.

 

In modern gear i can summit places with a camp on my back and not use it. That camp and food i carry is just insurance I will eat, be warm and get well if an accident happens.

 

Modern here is any camp gear made after 1950.... Some of my gear is pretty old going to the mid 70's anyway.

10:50 a.m. on April 5, 2013 (EDT)
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So I guess lodge poll would call me a modern. I wonder what type of stone tablet he wrote his post with?

11:51 a.m. on April 5, 2013 (EDT)
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packlitemb said:

So I guess lodge poll would call me a modern. I wonder what type of stone tablet he wrote his post with?

 This tablet runs on a silicon stone age chip set why?

Are 'we gonna have a issue?
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11:58 a.m. on April 5, 2013 (EDT)
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Sent it via smoke signal!

12:21 p.m. on April 5, 2013 (EDT)
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GaryPalmer said:

Sent it via smoke signal!

 People don't seem to know it, but we are still in the stone age. We never left it.. I see nothing wrong with mixing it up either.

Evidently I somehow offended that user, but unless he is just joking I have no idea how. I live in several technologies and camp out in all of them.

I can make stone knives as neatly with a deer leg bone grip, glued with hide glue,  and wrapped in real sinew self shrinking to be tight lashings, as I can forge a carbon steel blade.

Iron ore is just from dirt, carbon is still there. Fires are fires and these can be as manipulated as any stones are too. 

This tech contains no metal, no glass, no cloth, no plastic, no cotton no anything paleo man could not have have had.

Every item is leather/fur/feathers, wood, bark bark cordage, stone, shell, bone, all natural items I made.

Tools in the one piece bark basket pack are more edged tools, hide scrapers, a bow drill for drilling wood, bone, and for starting fire. There is a deer griped stone knife in my neck knife pouch and a turkey wing bone whistle too.

I did this for hire to promo a book for sale called 'This Perfect Place' and anyone can google that. The shoot was Nov 1st 2010 in Ipswich Mass and the wind was howling. Everyone else was in down vests, wool sweaters and the like. My wife got this still.

I didn't wear the center seam mocs I made for the shoot because it was so cold. Instead I wore pucker toe moc boots to my knees inside the leather leggings, so the knee bands of brain tan deer hide with shell beads are helping to hold the mocs up.

With what i had and this area being food rich, ie: clams, mussels, oysters, flounders, strippers, I could have stayed there with ease as I am.

There is maybe one item I would not have had which is Tn Flint on the white stone spear. The gray one is Munsungan Chert from Maine. I was out of chert from there and used what I had.


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4:52 p.m. on April 5, 2013 (EDT)
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I guess the way you was talkin about moderns goin around cutting everything up and building fires whereever they want and putting down others knives, and then asking if we had an issue. Even you began your post by saying "I shouldnt say this but." I dont know just seems kinda negative. Well by the way you asked if we had an issue, I probably offended you, but just seems like your talkin down to people. And this is my last post on this issue.

9:19 p.m. on April 5, 2013 (EDT)
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Well I don't know what to say to that.. Pretty much you read me wrong i guess. I was saying anything legal goes.

I seem to rub Peter the wrong way too, but i never said i was all things to all people either.

I have a odd sense of humor and I just think you read me wrong. You threw the first stone. I was just being myself.

Suit yourself you win.

10:53 a.m. on April 9, 2013 (EDT)
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Lodge Pole,

Don't change a thing.  Some people have refined and usually urban sensibilities.  They know nothing of procuring meat, skinning hides, brain tan, making clothes from hides, gunsmithing, flint knapping, cooperage,  or living in a lodge in the winter.  Working at the forge or leading a string of mules will never be part of their life experience.  Too bad.

People eat meat, use computers and live in wood houses, but complain about logging, hunting and mining.  They are confused.  You can't fix it by yourself.  You can only lead by example and hope someone follows.

Except for Yellowstone, I have no use for National Parks.

Years ago my brother announced " I am not going anyplace I can't take my dog."  Words to live by.  His other pronouncement.  They closed the old mental hospital in Sedro-Wooley, WA back in about 1974.  Turned all the nuts loose.  My brother to this day drives around SW and has never been there.

The argument of "I was born a 100 years too late" is bull crap.  I like how you seamlessly slip between time periods.  The Rondys in the West are strictly Fur Trade Era- Lewis and Clark to 1840.  Keep your nose to the wind and keep your powder dry.

12:34 p.m. on April 9, 2013 (EDT)
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ppine , I was in Yellowstone once. i couldn't understand why it wasn't a National Forest. Here in NH we have the White Mts National Forest which is legally a whole different thing. You can hunt and fish in a National Forest. I can only assume you might fish in Yellowstone if there is any fish in that nasty water.

I was stunned to read gun were not allowed. Oh well I just kept my business my business.

You're right I get 1 life to live and i just live it as I see fit. and I do live and learn skills in many different time zones. It's a part of wondering where we came from. I don't take myself very serious either and will mock myself out as well as i mock out the next guy. No one is perfect, and I know for sure i am not, but my wife might be :-)

Voo back east counts French and Indian War thru Fur Trade and what ever falls between. I do both of those and long hunter/leather stockings in both native and Euro white characters as the weather suits me.

I don't know anyone else doing Paleo,  Archaic times personally.

I have attended Rev War events but so far they way that works hasn't floated my stick.

I collect weapons and tools as they come by, as I can afford them. When it is tools I use the tools to make things that have to correct tool marks. Then these items become more desirable if they are for sale.

I know my hand augers made in the 18th century work far faster than any 1/2 inch Makita drill can when you are 20 miles out in the back country....

Arguing which blade is the sole correct blade these days is a work in total frustration. I have about 0 use for any stainless steel blades but i still have some and use them. These are delegated to cutting cardboard and or garden duty.

My high carbon steel blades are not treated that way. Of those the smallest is here

http://s290.photobucket.com/user/Mac_Muz/media/Knives/hatknife.jpg.html?sort=3&o=9

Over all this killer is 2.5 inches..  it is mainly for sewing, cutting either 9/16th" elk neck or cutting threads.

If i am in the world of modern hiking and happen to be wearing my 18th century Scot war bonnet a Balmora hat, which is common enough these days then I have that blade with the coil of linen 2 brass fish hooks, 2 needles, several feathers, and a Trade Silver brooch worth about 50 bucks i guess these days on.

Or it could be I am just out for a MC ride and have that hat on.. That blade just lives on a ribbon tie and is stuffed into the hem on the back.

When I crossed the USA on the MC tour the bike also pulled a trailer, and in the trailer was one basket pack with clothing just for Lewis and Clark events. Under the trailer deck was a ATV rifle case I had to modify to make longer to hold a 52.5" Kentucky long rifle.

Don't worry i painted the case white, had the case locked to the trailer and had the case locked tight. 2 locks and one was a blue cable lock which came up under a white cooler, and on the rifle case i placed a sticker that said 'COOL MAX'

A lot of people looked that cool max power supply over too ;-)

No sense scarin' the pants of ma and pa Kettle is there?

6:07 p.m. on April 9, 2013 (EDT)
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Pinus contorta,

Yellowstone is the first NP and the best.  Fly fishing has always been popular there.  The water is pristine except for natural hot springs.  It is now legal to carry firearms in NPs thanks to Obama.

Ystone is surrounded by many Nat Forests on all sides in WY, MT and ID.  The Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem is in a class by itself in the lower 48.  Only the Bob Marshall and central ID wilderness areas come close.

It would be really interesting to visit Rondys from before 1800.  I used to go to Williamburg, VA as a kid and could not get enough.

Next time you take a scooter out West, send me an e-mail and I will show you some stuff.

6:44 p.m. on April 9, 2013 (EDT)
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Passing thru Ystone which was done in around 7 days time, and where we lucked out finding a solo guy hoping for company with a big station wagon car in Cook City, and by the way we remain in contact with who had been to Ystone before several times we saw more than we would have in such limited time. Snowed in us getting there and again over a few days. I was getting a little nervous being there with a bike and mostly summer gear. Wondered if i had enough tools to work on sleds so survive a winter there.

The place is impressive. I was found down on my hands and knees testing water which looked great but was nasty stinky and hot. Don't worry I read all about Colter and his glass mts long before i was in Ystone. I wanted some of that 'glass' but got none. I am sure there is more but time was limited and i didn't know anyone.

What does this mean? 'visit Rondys from before 1800' There were no Voo's before 1807 and none after 1839, but it is just easier to call it 1840. I went by Bear Lake on the Wy Id Ut border and passed thru the Cache Park too.

Anyway there were no voo's pre 1800, so it must mean you want to see a event that has dates of 1750 - 1840, but i don't know that.

In which state do you live if it's ok to ask?

10:43 a.m. on April 10, 2013 (EDT)
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LP,

My mistake.  I think of historical re-enactments and automatically think of the Fur Trade around here because first white contact was L&C.   Pre 1800 events, whatever you call them would be new and different.

I am in No NV near Lake Tahoe.  The house is at 5000 feet with a one million acre backyard of public land, the Pine Nut Range.  When I go on vacation, the best view is in my driveway before we leave.

11:15 a.m. on April 10, 2013 (EDT)
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Maybe it's me. Pre 1840..... 1840 is the cut off for gear... No gear after 1840. This allows the cap locks of 1839, the Hawken that everyone thinks of as a Fur Trade Gun. It's a bit late really.

Back east there are Viking events and Pirate events. I have no idea what dates the Vikings use, where they do it etc but I know they do.

Pirates do 1650 to 1720 I think.... Then you have Williamsburg you mentioned not the same exactly since that is for tourists and of course the Plymouth Plantation and assorted other places are around. I will get busted for being this far off topic I bet.

The only think I can do is say you won't find any stainless steel at any of these places and you won't find very small folding knives either in general.

On no gear after 1840 there are a few medical exceptions, like eye glasses if they are prescription, crutches and wheel chairs for those who wish to attend and have grown feeble in their years. In that case the items are usually decorated or covered with a blanket.

We are not mean and evil people but you won't wear something like cheap sun glasses or a stainless steel wrist watch for very long. The ladies cause infractions often with nylon pantie hose. We have camp police called dogs oldiers and I have been one, and i have had the Booshway order me to get down off my horse and eat the pantie hose right off any offending females.

So far just making that known has always worked for me.. Of course being in paint helps. LOL

10:15 a.m. on April 11, 2013 (EDT)
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In the historical context, the knife for beginners would be a carbon steel shealth knife with leather, wood, bone, or antler handle with a blade about 3-4 inches with a full tang and a leather sheath.

A patch knife like a Green River would be the right size for a kid around 6-8.

12:52 a.m. on April 12, 2013 (EDT)
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I love all the discussion and I DO NOT think anyone was being obnoxious, confrontational nor irrational. I too have been a moderator on many sports sites and have seen much worse just by liking different teams. On this site everyone seems to be working toward common goals, like having a good time outside. On other types of forums people need to be "right" or "wrong" it is the nature of the type of forum.

AS far as knives go, I still think that is what the thread is supposed to be about, I have many types of blades but what I discover is that I hardly need any of them other then to cut cheese, shave a little spark off my flint or make a new hole for a cord. Sure when I go hunting I carry an array of blades for field dressing but I do not do that while backpacking in general. However when hunting I am sometimes backpacking.

I have fixed blades and folding blades, Swiss Army and kitchen knives. However most of the time my food is well prepared and needs little cutting. I do not normally need to cut guy lines or my rope but I have a very sharp little fold out gerber for that. I have taken a Gerber bone saw for small tree limbs etc since I am not interested in carrying a heavy hatchet, but I have considered it. I love a great knife, I have always admired quality items and wanted to have it. What I have learned is that in most situations I do not need much. I do like the pliers on my leatherman to crimp zippers and hold tiny things but I suppose I could do without. I also like big blades and carry a couple at times but they go unused most of the time.  I suppose if I were not prepared with gear I know I could make use of a good knife to make a shelter etc, but I carry most of what I need in less than 25lbs and that also is too much at times.

I admire those who can go primitive and I know I can go ultra light which is near primitive at times but I like comfort, reliability and a well made product. I have slept under pine boughs as well as the stars. I like fishing from the lake for my food, I love carrying next to nothing. However, I also like the gear I have and am willing to carry a little for the return on investment I get. I am not a yuppy hiker. Sure I like REI but mainly because of their return policy. Quality gear is a bonus. For example I have been looking for a new UL tent. What is important to me is to be able to seal out the elements and be lightweight as well as having space for both myself and my dog if the weather is bad. Man all the superlight stuff was also super expensive $300-500. But last night I found a noseeum tent w a waterproof full fly for $60. Just look around a bit and you never know what you may find.

Hey Lodgepole, when people take your words the wrong way and turn them into something you did not intend just think Ducks Back. Let it roll off like water, they simply took your words incorrectly or are still learning their own path. I think everyone here is pretty civil compared to a lot of other types of forums. I also like your sense of humor, intended or not.

Thanks for the lessons everyone, I have only been here a day and I think I have learned a little for each thread I have read.


Overall I could make use of a Real blade if I needed to and sometimes you never know if you are going to drop a pack over a cliff or something but for the most part I just don't need much of knife. Having said that I am two feet away from a drawer of tools & knives I collected over the years which seldom get used. If I like it I buy it, even if it is not always "needed".

12:33 p.m. on April 12, 2013 (EDT)
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Packer. I carry a lot of tools and gear I don't need to carry. What i carry depends on the season that days weather, and what kind of event it is.

I could say all a man needs is a knife and nothing else, it could be true. Then I could say a man could start naked with nothing as well, and the first thing the man would make is a knife.

Tools are not the most important things, a working brain is. After that lessons in life come next, hopefully with a creative bent.

In that way you can walk thru the game of life and pick up tools and cast then aside if they get to be too heavy.

Modern tools on hand just make life go faster, but maybe not better.

The fact that a chore will come by the brain thinking it needs to modify a thing, sooner or later that issue will be to cut. What that cut will be all depends.

As far as i can tell the problem is about the fact i am a little different, in that I have some skill sets that go back to camping out 10,000 years ago.

Then maybe that i camp out with a lot if heavy gear because that is faster in 1750 - 1840 that it is 10,000 years ago.

My modern gear is all middling later 20th century gear, older by today's stds. I may have a smattering of a few items made in the 21st but i wouldn't be sure. I am talking tech, not the date of manufacture.

I have no idea what i did or said about fire that ticked the poster off.... 

I build fires when I go camping if I am in a place where it is legal, but i try to avoid building a fire in a new place. If I do build a fire in a new place i try to build that fire in such a way that when it goes cold i can put the place back as I found it. That might be fill a the fire pit back in with the items I removed to dig the pit and with care, so it looks the same as i can make. (Typical at primitive events, other wise there would be up to 3,000 open fire pits for say a Eastern National Voo)

I can do that solo too, or build a fire on green recent dead and down/flat rock(s) and not scorch the soil.

Fire is a hobby of mine. I can start fire with a bow drill and to build a bow drill it's handy to have a point, be it rock or blade.

I start fire with 18th century flint and steel where the steel is what burns.

I can start fire with modern flint and steel which are all misnomers, and some sort of moon metal is what burns.

I have toyed with compression devices to start fire that belong to my friends.

Other fires I deal with are from the 1926 rivet forge, to Aladdin Mantel Lamps, to 4 barrel Holley carbs and that like over years.. Granted there is a problem if the Holley is on fire.

Like I said i have no idea what i did. If he was with me modern I wouldn't seem different at all.

I would have modern items we all use.

In the 1750- 1840 I would have very different items, axe, small draw shave, several knives thru out my gear from 2.5 inch over all to past 15" for just the blade. When camping like that NO One is allowed to have modern items period, unless the items are for medical needs.

Newbies have some problems there too. I have heard radio, smelled lighter fluid, seen flashlights, and assorted other sins, sunglasses, wrist watches and pantie hose.. These newbies don't like it a bit when a dog soldier comes along and makes them put that stuff away.

12:59 p.m. on April 12, 2013 (EDT)
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Err there isn't room here for the book this could take..

 Another thing modern means besides speed, and is you can go places modern that no one dared go in primitive times. Why the Himalayas were not conquered before the start in 1956, by Edmund Hillary

12:35 p.m. on April 15, 2013 (EDT)
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Let me set the record straight for all of those that are confused about the use of National Forest land in the US.  Under the Multiple Use Sustained Yield Act and many other pieces of legislation the NFs are managed to produce timber, forage, water, wildlife and recreation.  That means that timber harvesting including sometimes clearcutting is a part of normal management.  Cattle grazing, hunting and shooting are legal also on NFs as well as nearly all wilderness areas. 

The State of California is its on universe and may have some different and unusual interpretations of Federal laws, but not the other 49 states.  There may be some tracts of USFS land that are too small and suburban for all the uses to apply.  If you are in doubt contact your local Ranger District and ask.

 

 

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