Sol Ti Premium Cooking System

6:49 p.m. on June 27, 2011 (EDT)
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I have just been reading about the JetBoil Sol Ti stove cooking system, there is a lot written about the “Jetboil advanced Jetboil Thermo-Regulate™ Burner Technology to deliver consistent heat output down to 20˚ F (-6˚ C)” .

Why does adding a Thermo-Regulate™ Burner Technology make the Sol stove work better in colder conditions than other upright canister stoves, can someone explain to me please.

Tony

7:35 p.m. on June 27, 2011 (EDT)
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TonyB said:

I have just been reading about the JetBoil Sol Ti stove cooking system, there is a lot written about the “Jetboil advanced Jetboil Thermo-Regulate™ Burner Technology to deliver consistent heat output down to 20˚ F (-6˚ C)” .

Why does adding a Thermo-Regulate™ Burner Technology make the Sol stove work better in colder conditions than other upright canister stoves, can someone explain to me please.

Tony

 Hi, Tony,

I honestly don't think they're claiming much.  Consider a fuel blend of propane and isobutane, but no n-butane.  As in all gas canisters used in the upright position, the propane will burn off at a faster rate than the isobutane leaving one with essentially 100% isobutane toward the latter end of the life of the canister.  What is the vaporization (boiling point) of isobutane?  It's 11F.  In order for an upright gas stove to work properly, the temperature of its fuel typically needs to be about 5C higher than the fuel's vaporization point.  Five degrees Celsius is about nine degrees Fahrenheit.  If the vaporization point of isobutane is 11F and you add 9 more degrees Fahrenheit, you get a total of 20F.

Jetboil is basically taking the normal properties of gas and acting as though it were some technological breakthrough.  It's sort of like someone selling water as a "miracle re-hydration fluid."  Water normally re-hydrates.  Isobutane normally vaporizes at 20F. 

Sounds like marketing spin if you ask me.

HJ

7:43 p.m. on June 27, 2011 (EDT)
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I second the question. My guess is that the valve is pressure regulated so when the fuel is cold it "opens" the valve up maintaining the pressure you have set.  This would be very helpful when simmering with it. I have a PCS model and when you simmer with it the canister will get cold and the pressure drops. You've got to watch it or the flame will go out.

8:08 p.m. on June 27, 2011 (EDT)
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hikin_jim said:

 Hi, Tony,

I honestly don't think they're claiming much.  Consider a fuel blend of propane and isobutane, but no n-butane.  As in all gas canisters used in the upright position, the propane will burn off at a faster rate than the isobutane leaving one with essentially 100% isobutane toward the latter end of the life of the canister.  What is the vaporization (boiling point) of isobutane?  It's 11F.  In order for an upright gas stove to work properly, the temperature of its fuel typically needs to be about 5C higher than the fuel's vaporization point.  Five degrees Celsius is about nine degrees Fahrenheit.  If the vaporization point of isobutane is 11F and you add 9 more degrees Fahrenheit, you get a total of 20F.

Jetboil is basically taking the normal properties of gas and acting as though it were some technological breakthrough.  It's sort of like someone selling water as a "miracle re-hydration fluid."  Water normally re-hydrates.  Isobutane normally vaporizes at 20F. 

Sounds like marketing spin if you ask me.

HJ

 Hi HJ,

Very well put, from my research I could not agree with you more, the laws of physics with compressible fluids are pretty straight forward, marketing spin it is, from what I have just been reading, a lot of people reviewing the Sol have been well and truly sucked in.

MSR have made much the same claims with the Reactor.

Tony

8:26 p.m. on June 27, 2011 (EDT)
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I have read reports that stoves with a regulator valve are able to more fully use the fuel in a canister, but that's about the only material advantage I've heard about for a regulator valved stove.

If you want cold weather performance, the top three things to consider are:

1.  Fuel composition.  Avoid n-butane.  Look for fuels that are a blend isobutane and propane.

2.  Stove design.  For cold weather performance, a remote inverted canister stove is the way to go.

3.  Fuel temperature.  Keeping your fuel "warm" (generally anything above 32F/0C is great with isobutane) will greatly improve your cold weather performance.  The most typical method is to place the fuel canister in liquid water.

Those three things are far more important that the type of valve one's stove has.

I'm sure I'm "preaching to the choir" with you, so pardon my stating the basics.

HJ

5:17 a.m. on June 28, 2011 (EDT)
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hikin_jim said:

I have read reports that stoves with a regulator valve are able to more fully use the fuel in a canister, but that's about the only material advantage I've heard about for a regulator valved stove.

If you want cold weather performance, the top three things to consider are:

1.  Fuel composition.  Avoid n-butane.  Look for fuels that are a blend isobutane and propane.

2.  Stove design.  For cold weather performance, a remote inverted canister stove is the way to go.

3.  Fuel temperature.  Keeping your fuel "warm" (generally anything above 32F/0C is great with isobutane) will greatly improve your cold weather performance.  The most typical method is to place the fuel canister in liquid water.

Those three things are far more important that the type of valve one's stove has.

I'm sure I'm "preaching to the choir" with you, so pardon my stating the basics.

HJ

 Hi HJ,

A nice explanation of how to get the most out of a canister stove, it was when I started looking at canister pressures vs temperature I decided to use liquid feed canister stoves. I certainly do not miss sleeping with my canister.

Two other claims that JetBoil make that I have big doubts about are the speed of boil "16 oz (0.5 Liter) = 2 minutes, 15 seconds (avg over life of Jetpower canister)" and the efficiency claim "12 Liters per 100g Jetpower canister".

I have done many tests on my JetBoilPCSandGCSsystems and I have never got close to what they claim in both cases certainly not with the PCSsystem, I suspect it is more spin.

I have heard that some stove manufactures start with warm water and others consider that when the pot sings the water is boiling but unless they publish their testing procedure who would know.

A more realistic figures in the field would be 3-5 minutes per 500ml and 12 grams  per liter boiled (8 liters per 100g canister).

Tony

12:27 p.m. on June 28, 2011 (EDT)
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Nice stove info thanks.

12:52 p.m. on June 28, 2011 (EDT)
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Jim- whats your profession? (if you don't mind me asking). If you'd prefer to keep that to yourself, I completly understand. The reason I ask is that I've read a number of your posts relating different types of stoves. Very helpful stuff! Especially broken down to the chemistry of why, or why not, something works. Just wondering if your background is in the sciences?

2:42 p.m. on June 28, 2011 (EDT)
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Jake W said:

Jim- whats your profession? (if you don't mind me asking). If you'd prefer to keep that to yourself, I completly understand. The reason I ask is that I've read a number of your posts relating different types of stoves. Very helpful stuff! Especially broken down to the chemistry of why, or why not, something works. Just wondering if your background is in the sciences?

 Originally, I studied to be an engineer (mechanical), but I wound up in computers.  I got to study chemistry, physics, calculus, etc.  I can't do the calculations like I used to be able to, but I still understand the overall process of how things work.  Glad my posts are helpful.

If you want really detailed explanations of things, there are a series of articles on backpackinglight.com by Dr. Roger Caffin.  You have to buy the articles (or subscribe), but they're well worth the read.

Stoves now are a hobby.  I've even got something of a blog:  http://www.AdventuresInStoving.blogspot.com although I don't have all the time I'd like to organize and update the blog.

HJ

2:48 p.m. on June 28, 2011 (EDT)
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TonyB said:

Two other claims that JetBoil make that I have big doubts about are the speed of boil "16 oz (0.5 Liter) = 2 minutes, 15 seconds (avg over life of Jetpower canister)" and the efficiency claim "12 Liters per 100g Jetpower canister".

I have done many tests on my JetBoilPCSandGCSsystems and I have never got close to what they claim in both cases certainly not with the PCSsystem, I suspect it is more spin.

I have heard that some stove manufactures start with warm water and others consider that when the pot sings the water is boiling but unless they publish their testing procedure who would know.

A more realistic figures in the field would be 3-5 minutes per 500ml and 12 grams  per liter boiled (8 liters per 100g canister).

Tony

 Jetboil's speed claims seem exaggerated to me.  I suspect they do their tests in a warm, windless lab with "room temperature" water (75F/24C).  When was the last time I encountered windless conditions and found 75F water (that I was willing to drink) in the mountains while out tramping about?  Never.

The Jetboil stoves are fairly efficient though.  I did a five day backpack with two other guys, and we got by with one 110g canister of fuel.  It was just down to fumes at the end, but we got by.  I thought that was pretty good.  We had hot meals every evening, hot drinks morning and night, cold lunches, and hot breakfasts about half the time.  If we had had hot breakfasts every morning, we would have had to bring more gas.  Still, a pretty good showing on the JB's part.

HJ

7:25 p.m. on June 28, 2011 (EDT)
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hikin_jim said:

 Jetboil's speed claims seem exaggerated to me.  I suspect they do their tests in a warm, windless lab with "room temperature" water (75F/24C).  When was the last time I encountered windless conditions and found 75F water (that I was willing to drink) in the mountains while out tramping about?  Never.

The Jetboil stoves are fairly efficient though.  I did a five day backpack with two other guys, and we got by with one 110g canister of fuel.  It was just down to fumes at the end, but we got by.  I thought that was pretty good.  We had hot meals every evening, hot drinks morning and night, cold lunches, and hot breakfasts about half the time.  If we had had hot breakfasts every morning, we would have had to bring more gas.  Still, a pretty good showing on the JB's part.

HJ

 Hi HJ,

I agree with the water temp while walking, where I walk most of the time the water would be 15C (59F) or lower.

I am not denying that the JetBoil stove systems are very efficient, but I do think they over state efficiency.

The Sol and Ti Sol are not available yet in OZ, knowing the JB importers, when it does, the cost will be may times higher than it is in the US.

The MSR Reactor sells for around double of what you can get it for in the US, and the A$ is currently stronger than the US$ (when the Reactor first came out it cost A$400).

Tony

7:49 p.m. on June 28, 2011 (EDT)
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Yipes!  How can they charge double in Australia?  That makes no sense at all.  Are import duties astronomical in Australia?  The shipping costs certainly wouldn't justify charging double.

I agree with you that most companies that sell heat exchanger type pots exaggerate the efficiency gains of their products.  I think that Primus says you'll cut fuel consumption by half.  Ha!  I'd like to see that happen under real conditions.

I haven't fired up a Ti Sol myself, but I've looked at them in the store.  It looks like a solid product, and the cup is light.  Very tempting although I have enough stoves already to outfit a regiment (well, not quite, but I have quite a few).

HJ

8:29 p.m. on June 28, 2011 (EDT)
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hikin_jim said:

Yipes!  How can they charge double in Australia?  That makes no sense at all.  Are import duties astronomical in Australia?  The shipping costs certainly wouldn't justify charging double.

I agree with you that most companies that sell heat exchanger type pots exaggerate the efficiency gains of their products.  I think that Primus says you'll cut fuel consumption by half.  Ha!  I'd like to see that happen under real conditions.

I haven't fired up a Ti Sol myself, but I've looked at them in the store.  It looks like a solid product, and the cup is light.  Very tempting although I have enough stoves already to outfit a regiment (well, not quite, but I have quite a few).

HJ

 Hi HJ,

Some backpacking items can cost us 2.5 times what you pay retail in the US, an example is my Jam2 pack, a few years ago I paid A$102 delivered to a friends US address, at the time the retail price for the Jam2 here was A$260. Most US gear goes through an importer, there is a import duty they have to pay then they put their cut onto the cost and the retailers then have a 100% markup. The local outdoor industry is wondering why a lot of business is being done OS through the net, there have been attempts to put a duty on all items purchased OS but the government told them to get their act together so they can compete on a world stage. (note  currently only items over A$1k attract import duty)

I am tempted to get Sol Ti but like you I have far to many stoves, and also far to many pots, tents, packs sleeping bags, sleeping mats, etc.

Tony

10:37 p.m. on June 28, 2011 (EDT)
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TonyB said:

I am tempted to get Sol Ti but like you I have far to many stoves, and also far to many pots, tents, packs sleeping bags, sleeping mats, etc.

Tony

 lol. That sounds familiar.

If ever you do decide you want a JB Ti Sol and your friend can't help you out, let me know.  I'm sure we can work something out.

What does "OS" mean?  "On the sly?"  I take it that it means something that goes around the normal retail process.  One can hardly blame people for doing that when there's a 100% markup involved.  Shame on those retailers.

HJ

11:41 p.m. on June 28, 2011 (EDT)
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hikin_jim said:

 lol. That sounds familiar.

If ever you do decide you want a JB Ti Sol and your friend can't help you out, let me know.  I'm sure we can work something out.

What does "OS" mean?  "On the sly?"  I take it that it means something that goes around the normal retail process.  One can hardly blame people for doing that when there's a 100% markup involved.  Shame on those retailers.

HJ

 Hi HJ,

Thanks for the offer to help purchasing a US sourced Sol, I am currently not buying much gear at the moment as I am saving up for a tramping trip to New Zealand later this year, I am going to do the Rees-Dart Track, that is if NZ is still standing.

Sorry OS in OZ means Over Seas.

Tony

2:30 p.m. on June 29, 2011 (EDT)
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TonyB said:

I am saving up for a tramping trip to New Zealand later this year, I am going to do the Rees-Dart Track, that is if NZ is still standing.

Post photos, please. :)

HJ

6:07 p.m. on June 29, 2011 (EDT)
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hikin_jim said:

TonyB said:

I am saving up for a tramping trip to New Zealand later this year, I am going to do the Rees-Dart Track, that is if NZ is still standing.

Post photos, please. :)

HJ

 Hi HJ,

I will post a trip report, I have to get there first, at the moment due to volcanic activity in Chile all flights to New Zealand are canceled.

Tony

6:25 p.m. on June 29, 2011 (EDT)
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Ah.  I thought that was a reference to the earthquake. 

Understood and good luck.  Hope you have a backup plan.  I've had to go to "Plan B" more than once.

HJ

6:39 p.m. on June 29, 2011 (EDT)
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hikin_jim said:

Ah.  I thought that was a reference to the earthquake. 

Understood and good luck.  Hope you have a backup plan.  I've had to go to "Plan B" more than once.

HJ

 Hi HJ,

The South Island of New Zealand has been having a lot of seismic activity lately, especially in Christchurch, the beautiful Christchurch has been flattened, they are experiencing aftershocks nearly every day. Unfortunately a lot of Christchurch is built on mud which is not good for surviving earthquakes.

I will be flying into Queenstown, it had an earthquake recently too, fortunately no damage.

My backup plan is not to go, there is plenty of walking to do here in OZ.

Tony

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