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Thoughts on buying, selling, trading, and PIF on Trailspace

5:14 p.m. on April 24, 2011 (EDT)
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Hi,

I wanted to start this thread because Mazama put up a Sierra Designs Octadome tent for sale which I decided to buy and use as my guest tent as I don't loan out my tents.  Within three messages thoughts turned to the "proper edicated of buying and selling of equiptment" on Trailspace.  As there are no rules, as such, we have to police ourselves. As Mazama will be closing the tent ad I though this deserved some discussion.

The thoughts expressed were that of buying on Trailspace and then selling on Ebay for a profit.  After all, nothing wrong with a guy makin a buck, eh.  I buy and sell on both Craigslist and Ebay, usually buying on Craigslist (as this is a fourm in which you can talk people down to a lower price) and then sell on Ebay (as that site is an auction style site which people bid each other up). 

I think that the items put up for sale on Trailspace should be for the use of Trailspace members.  If an item gets no responce from someone who wants to use said item then by all means sell the item to some who wants to sell it else where.  One of the ways to help our way living is by being as Green as possibile and that means passing on used gear so people aren't always buying new gear. 

The only way I can think of making sure your item is going to a member that is not going to resell if for a profiit (if this is a concern of yours) is by, (a) asking the person what there going to do with the item, (b) check out there postings and see who they are, (c) see if you item turns up on ebay.   If your like me I also check Ebay prices to see what things are worth and what there selling for as well as trolling for tents.  So it's no hassel to check and see if my item turns up.

As long as we don't missrepresent what out intentions are with the items we buy, sell, trade, and PIF then "all will be well", or something like that.  ;-}

5:31 p.m. on April 24, 2011 (EDT)
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I don't want to hijack apeman's thread, but I'll quickly point out that we do have rules on this topic already, as discussed in another thread.

The Classifieds have the distinction of allowing individuals to buy, sell, and trade gear, as long as they are not doing so on behalf of a business or as a commercial venture.

From the Community Rules and Guidelines:

#12 Post only non-commercial content.
Do not post advertising, commercial or promotional posts, paid links, or affiliate marketing in the forums or gear reviews.

The Classifieds Forum is the sole exception. Here individuals (but not businesses or individuals posting on behalf of a business) may buy, sell, and trade gear.

So, if a buyer and a seller are individuals, they can buy and sell gear on the site, for whatever prices they agree on, as long as no one is doing so for a commercial purpose.

I'm eager to hear other opinions on this topic, but please keep it civil. Thanks.

5:53 p.m. on April 24, 2011 (EDT)
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Hi Alicia,  Yes, I just was not thinking when I said "As there are no rules, as such, we have to police ourselves."  As rule #12 says in the above post:

"The Classifieds Forum is the sole exception. Here individuals (but not businesses or individuals posting on behalf of a business) may buy, sell, and trade gear.

I guess what I  trying to convey was that as an individual (s) buying and selling, what are peoples thoughts on how to conduct ouselves.  I still consider myself an individual and non-business/non-commercial even if I make a profit on an item on ebay or craigslist or another website.

As there are always loop holes to be found in rules, rules should only be made when people can't take care of business themselves. Thanks

5:57 p.m. on April 24, 2011 (EDT)
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Transparency would be a thing of beauty, but is unlikely. I've had a person I knew to be an eBay reseller outright lie to me, saying that the Moss tent was going to a Boy Scout Troop, when I asked point blank, "are you going to resell this tent?".

6:14 p.m. on April 24, 2011 (EDT)
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I buy / sell / trade / re-furb / repair music-instruments.   eBay and dedicated instrument (for horns, for guitars & amps, etc) forums are my choices, with the forums being favored, due to saving me and the buyer the ludicrous fees charged by eBay.

On the horn forum, for example, one cannot participate in "The Marketplace" as it is called, until he/she has posted at least five times on the forums.   Posts of substance, not generic one-liners, such as "I agree with that", etc., etc.

Of course, 'newbies' will have ample time to qualify.

Often, on these forums,  sellers state their eBay user-names, and how many transactions were made, as well as their 'Feedback' rating.

For example, I have a 100% 'Feedback' rating, with over 670 transactions, since 2004 on eBay.   Sale-items going to buyers all over the world.

On the horn and guitar forums, one can "brag" a little.   Carefully, though.  If another forum-ite wants to 'ding' you, due to a transaction gone sour, it is not easy to regenerate your reputation.  Once you become "known", then it is easier to buy and sell.   I have had sellers send me instruments BEFORE I have paid for them (!).   Others have sent me instruments (some, valued at a couple-grand) before I have even made up my mind if I want to buy.  Some of my 'customers' have been in the "Who's Who" of the music biz (without dropping names), including someone in the Rock'n'Roll Hall of Fame.

I get Emails from the general-managers and owners of major factories and also, 'boutique' (high-end) custom-builders ... asking me my opinions.

I WILL 'drop' a name-or-two, here ... Paul Reed Smith (a neighbor), Bach, Getzen, Taylor (UK), Kanstul, Martin.

I don't 'suck-up' to any of them ... and, I won't pull any punches if they ask me what I think of one of their instruments.   Even marketing strategy and ploys.  I feel that is why they respect me.

So far, I haven't asked for endorsement fees ( LoL ), but I probably should.

Soooo ... where does that lead us, here?

For me, I don't care what a buyer wants to do with an item I sell.   I generally like to 'break-even' on my investment, including the time involved.  

For example, I live 20-minutes drive from a large L.L.Bean factory-outlet store.   I am a 'frequent flyer' with L.L. Bean ... meaning, I buy often.   I have the house 'club card'.  I am 'clued-in' on otherwise unannounced sales.   Same with nearby (Annapolis, MD) Hudson Trail Outfitters.

If I see something that is dramatically reduced in price, and is a known entitiy with a solid reputation, I'll buy it on "speculation".   I recently bought some women's Winter wear for a girlfriend, intended as next year's Christmas gifts.   Suddenly, the girlfriend is 'out-of-the-picture'.

 Guess what?   Selling time, Baby!  (Unless another, same/similar sized G/F enters the picture).

I have a lot of N.O.S. ("New Old Stock") hiking and camping gear.  "Old School", as well as 'cutting-edge' (today's technology).

Again ... what I am driving at, is we SHOULD, here at Trailspace, come-up with a way to establish a seller's bona fides.  Heck, I'll sell several items under $100, which I deem a reasonable figure, to establish me as a solid seller.   Then, I can 'wheel'n'deal' with higher-ticket items.

I LOVE to trade.  Up ... down ... partial  (+/- $$) ... etc.   It's a lot of fun.

What say you, fellow Trailspacer's?

Yogi Robt

6:52 p.m. on April 24, 2011 (EDT)
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To add to the etiquette dilemma: if you do plan to resell on eBay, should there be some kind of "grace" period to be expected? In other words, wait 2 months, 4 months, 6 months before it ends up on eBay? In a way, I can see why any talk of such a thing would give the impression of being sneaky, but my sense of conscience tips me to think there should be some kind of wait period before taking a deal here and making a profit there. Sure, it's putting a stranglehold on someone else's money/investment, but at the same time, there maybe should be even the slightest dues paid to the special prices we see here. I don't think it is too much to ask to show that modicum of respect, especially if the motive is taking it elsewhere as a profit-maker and away from someone's hands here who would directly benefit from the special price. Maybe that seems like mere semantics to some. I don't know. Personally, when I score a deal ANYWHERE, I don't feel comfortable racing anywhere else to resell it. Waiting somehow makes it seem more okay to do.

6:53 p.m. on April 24, 2011 (EDT)
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Transparency would be a thing of beauty, but is unlikely. I've had a person I knew to be an eBay reseller outright lie to me, saying that the Moss tent was going to a Boy Scout Troop, when I asked point blank, "are you going to resell this tent?".

this is so true and i do not believe that any more rules or requirements will make things any more transparent. one of the things that first attracted me to trailspace was that you could be a brand new member and partake of the privileges of being a member. there are some great sites on the internet that you have to "prove up" before you can use the privileges. i will probably never be a member there.

civility and freedom what an oxymoron...best of luck to us all 

6:59 p.m. on April 24, 2011 (EDT)
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Remember, folks ... this country was built on CAPITALISM.   Free-market entrepreneurship.

Money is 'tight', now.   We all are taking a hit.   'Bargains' abound.

I'm from New York.   "Hustling" is part of the culture.   Read Donald Trump's "The Art Of The Deal".    Much to learn.

Yogi Robt

7:53 p.m. on April 24, 2011 (EDT)
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I know of no Yogin or Yogini who hustles, Robert. "The Donald" has much to learn, and I'd say that to his face.

8:15 p.m. on April 24, 2011 (EDT)
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How many times has Trump been bankrupt? How many creditors has he owed and never paid? I don't think I'll take too much advice from that guy. His talk is big. His walk is tiny.

8:30 p.m. on April 24, 2011 (EDT)
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No, no, NO !!

You missed my point!

I'm tawkin' (NY-ese) 'bout WHAT is in his book  NOT HIM.  His techniques for negotiating.  

As far as Yogis 'hustling', you just met one.   I met (more than once) the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi ('guru' to The Beatles).   He WAS NOT the benign, omnipotent man many thought he was.   He was a shrewd businessman.  He 'sold'  /  promoted himself, and his ideas.   For BIG BUCKS !   I should know.   A few of the original "Beachboys" were with me.

BTW -- We need a new 'regime'.   The sooner-the-better.

Yogi Robt

8:53 p.m. on April 24, 2011 (EDT)
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I also belong to the Classic Camp Stove(CCS) forum at spiritburner.com CCS has an option in the control panel to place other forum members on your ignore list, making it possible to avoid suffering through reading that person's posts. I find it incredibly helpful at filtering out obnoxious political rhetoric. I should mention that to keep my online activity cloaked in secrecy, my CCS user ID is... abman47.

9:12 p.m. on April 24, 2011 (EDT)
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By the way abman47- Ment to tell you that I remember when MOSS tents were the bomb in the 70-80's..Love that you work  on them..

Now for the PIF- I was the one who initiated it here on TS with MikeMarrow. I would prefer to keep said items as PIF not for profit if you don't mind. The concept is accually from another forum and they had they same issue your presently discussing about sale's..PIF is to help each other aquire items we may not afford or find.I would prefer to keep anything PIF as stated please.Also i have a bunch and I mean abunch of items I will PIF after I finish my thruhike and many are high dollar items that were given to me while hiking and fellow backpackers looking to donate to future backpackers..All my items will always be listed as PIF..

9:17 p.m. on April 24, 2011 (EDT)
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Well said sir!

9:33 p.m. on April 24, 2011 (EDT)
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BTW -- We need a new 'regime'.   The sooner-the-better.

Yogi Robt

We've only been out of the last 8-year train wreck by three years. This IS the new deal.

10:15 p.m. on April 24, 2011 (EDT)
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All bad ... however many years are attached ... 3 years ... 8 years ...  11 years ... WTH?

  Dunno (?) 'bout 'new deal' ....  Time for a NEW VOICE.   Otherwise, we'll need a "Nat'l Day of Mourning" for the lost values we once held so dear.

Rant over.  Return to your regularly scheduled pap.

Yogi Robt

12:39 a.m. on April 25, 2011 (EDT)
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Can someone ('apeman' ??) please expand on the acronym "PIF"  ???

I associate that acronym for "Paid In Full".   Also (insurance business) "Policies In Force".   "Public Investment Fund"?   "Program Information File" ?  "Pay It Forward"??

Please help.  DO NOT assume everyone knows acronyms all that well.   I admit to using them, but I also want to make my points clear, so I will spell it out ... lest there be no mistake.

WTH ! (?)

Yogi Robt

12:52 a.m. on April 25, 2011 (EDT)
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Hi Robert,  Here it (PIF) stands for Pay It Foward. denis daly and MikeMarrow started a PIF with equiptment/gear.  Gifting gear to someone and they in turn, at some point gifts a piece of gear foward.

2:02 a.m. on April 25, 2011 (EDT)
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Robert- Apeman described it perfectly. Gifting equitment/ gear foward..These are the rules MikeMarrow and I decided on for PIF..

Pay It Forward

These are the conditons.

1)If you have a piece of gear and not useing it or going to and a member can.

        Anti up

2) It has to be of equal or lesser value.

3) Person with the item can charge reasonable shipping.

4) The next person has to post about PIF. When they can. Or when they have gear they no longer want or need.

    For Trusted Trailspace Users.

* Reasonable shipping is actual cost not inflated.

* When you agree to Take a PIF ITEM then you have to post yours..

6:12 a.m. on April 25, 2011 (EDT)
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Got it !   Thanks.

Great concept.

Yogi Robt

8:51 a.m. on April 25, 2011 (EDT)
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Hey Denis!


100_0416.jpg
It rained that night. My pack was dry in the morning. Many thanks!

9:33 a.m. on April 25, 2011 (EDT)
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BTW my ebay name is mikemorrow1956. I dont sell.

10:39 a.m. on April 25, 2011 (EDT)
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Mike Nice the packcover is the right size...Awesome..have to hit the trail.Done relaxing and kicking back for 3 days..Till my next stop...Glad everyone understands PIF if not fully ask MikeMorrow...

2:01 a.m. on April 26, 2011 (EDT)
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Very intresting and touchy topic,

By all accounts I'm still basicly a Newbie here at TS. But was of the opinion that the forum was to share knowledge, ideas, and to help one another have great experiences doing what we love. I've really come to enjoy my visits here. Friendly, knowledgable, and intresting people and topics are the reasons for that.

Trying to turn a profit by being a capitalistic shrewd businessman thats out to wheel and deal at my expense just doesnt sit right with me. Least not here. There are plenty of other places where that is the norm, and to be expected ie. Craigslist and Ebay. Lets not turn this into a comercialized gear post.

P.I.F. is an awsome idea and should remain just that! P.I.F.  Anybody found abusing this or trying to make profit from it, should be Tared and Feathered then hung out for public humiliation!!

End of Rant

10:57 a.m. on April 27, 2011 (EDT)
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 Here are my personal thoughts:

1) I love the Pay It Forward idea, and is something I have done for a while, though without having given it a name.

2) On certain items, or in certain situations, I may not think PIF would be the best and most responsible thing to do to take care of my responsibilities and family.

3) It is certainly not wrong to sell something, for profit or not. If you hit a tough spot financially there's nothing reproachable about selling some of your worldly possessions to fill in the gaps. There's nothing wrong with honestly buying and selling items for profit either.

4) I will not be upset or offended f I sell something at a price I am comfortable with, and the buyer sells it on ebay for even more. It may make me think I should have asked more, but I won't be mad at them.

5) If someone picked up a PIF item I had posted and then sells it elsewhere I would be a little more than annoyed. That action would be a dishonest and egregious malignment of a philanthropic program.

1:03 p.m. on April 27, 2011 (EDT)
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I totally agree !!! (what's wrong with buying and selling for profit ??)

If I lost my job and had to support my family, I am willing to do almost anything !!!

It's one thing to buy an item for the asking price and resale for profit ( totally fine )

Now if your trying to profit of PIF (pay it forward) that's WRONG !!

If you can buy a item for $ 100 dollars and sell it for $ 400 more power to you !! That's just fine !!!

Happy trails everyone !!

2:27 p.m. on April 27, 2011 (EDT)
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Gonzan, I'm in complete agreement with you when the transaction is, for want of a better term, "the norm", where a member advertises a random piece of gear and another member, who has a use for that gear(other than resale), buys it. The problem I have with Scanderl(nwpacman) is that he's dishonest about his reason for buying gear; his purchases fuel a for profit business, which, as Alicia pointed out, is contrary to the Community Rules and Guidelines. Please refer to his self stated reasons for reselling the gear he buys:

And if there is any doubt,YES I buy stuff online and resale if it doesn't fit my needs or after I demo it myself, Is that against the law??

That sounds fine; however, Schanderl's actions refute this premise:

(1) On 2-20-2010 Schanderl acknowledge receipt of Moss Superfly IV purchased from Jim S.

(2) This Superfly IV was sold on eBay in March 2010

(3) Please read Schanderl's posts in Trailspace member Littlecats' wanted ad for a Dana Design "Little Nuky" pyramid tent.

(4) Schanderl placed a wanted ad(in this forum's classifieds) for a teepee or pyramid style tent on 3-30-2010. When asked, "didn't you like the moss superfly you bought from jim? isn't that what you are looking for? i noticed that you sold it on ebay. i am curious what you didn't like about the superfly" by forum member Lazya4 on 4-1-2010, Schanderl replied,"The superfly was a great tent but no floor !! (if I had the floor I would have kept the tent) I want to find a tent with the optional floor..

(5) April 2010, Schanderl sold a Dana Design Nuk Tuk(pyramid tent) on eBay for $699.99

(6) August 2010, Schanderl sold a Dana Design Nuk Tuk on eBay for $729.99

(7) 4-9-2011, Schanderl sold a Dana Design Nuk Tuk on eBay for $946

(8) 4-21-2011, Schanderl sold a Moss Superfly IV(with optional floor) on eBay for $549.99

I believe the 3 Nuk Tuks had floors,  as did the Superfly IV.

It is my belief that outdoors folks are honest and tend to disassociate themselves from the "rat race", the "dog eat dog" ideology found where human populations are too tightly packed together; as we leave civilization behind, and enjoy "RE-CREATION" whenever we are able to. It may sound simple minded, but at 57 years old, I still strive to live by the oath I took in Boy Scouts, and follow the 12 points of the Scout Law, the first being, "A Scout is trustworthy".

3:05 a.m. on April 29, 2011 (EDT)
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...I sold the Sierra Designs to Apeman and guess I started the mess in a way by posting the ad for sale.

I know (and knew) the tent is worth something to collectors and for that reason I wanted to offer it here. I've got a few others that I may sell as they should be used more. Re the Octadome though ....If it was used or placed in a collection...fine. I'm happy it is going to be used. Had it gone to eBay, ok...I'd not have made as much by having someone else flip it but you take your chances.

I'm off and on on the Spiritburner site and the horn and stereo sites Robert talks about as well as some others. I've bought and sold on those sites but mostly I've learned a ton so giving back is something that I feel is good. I do the same for my mountaineering club.

So thanks for the chance to  add my two cents.

4:09 a.m. on April 29, 2011 (EDT)
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"...I sold the Sierra Designs to Apeman and guess I started the mess in a way by posting the ad for sale".

 

Mazama, you had nothing to do with starting this, it has obviously been festering for a very long time with a lot of people having very strong opionions about it.  It just happend to come out on your posting.  If not you, it would have been someone else.  This is the classified section which is designed to buy, sell, and trade outdoor equiptment & gear.  In my opinion you did everything exactly as you were supposed to do in regards to selling this item.   I do have more to say on the subject but I want to see if any more people want to chime in first. Plus it's late and I'm a really crappy typer and proof reader when it gets this late.

4:44 p.m. on May 2, 2011 (EDT)
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Abman,

I think I am 100% on the same page with you on the topic, I apologize if it seemed like I was being contrary. I realize using numbered bullets probably conveyed that. I definitely could have stressed the qualifier of transactions being 100% honest. If someone is buying and reselling for profit, they need to be forthright when asked. If the seller has made it clear (or even just suggested) they are selling a special item really low so that someone with little means can enjoy it, then it would definitely be really bad form to buy and resale for profit.

I hadn't read Mazma's thread, so I was jumping into the conversation without any context.  I had seen similar issues and threads in the past, and really despise shady reselling

6:28 p.m. on May 2, 2011 (EDT)
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Gonzan, no problems exist between the two of us whatsoever. I agree with your statements, when predicated on what we'll both agree to call "an honest transaction". I'm also on board with your observation: "If you hit a tough spot financially there's nothing reproachable about selling some of your worldly possessions to fill in the gaps". I neither had a problem with you using numbered bullets, nor did it prompt my use of same; I think that you and I are "brothers from other mothers", as I was listing points numerically to support my argument that Schanderl's claim(that he only resells items that fail to meet his needs) is a complete fabrication(lie) in what, to me, is an organized format. No apologies are necessary; I didn't interpret your statements as either contrary, or a personal afront.

9:10 a.m. on May 3, 2011 (EDT)
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Thanks, abman, I just wanted to be sure.

I don't often comment on the vintage gear & tent threads that are your haunts, as I do not have much to contribute, but I love reading the conversations about the classics. I am a sucker for quality old gear, I even use a Marugg Scyth to mow my back yard :)

Was did Schandler have the screen name "nwpacman" here on TS in the past, or just on other forums? I seem to remember seeing that screen name before, but I can't remember where, and it doesn't show up in our members list.

 

11:06 a.m. on May 3, 2011 (EDT)
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For me the real issue is the immediate purchase with specific intentions to resell the item.  The notion of buying something here to resell on ebay bothers me less if the item was listed here and has not sold for some period of time, say 2-4 weeks.  That time gives prospective buyers a chance to see the listing and make a buying decision rather than have the item immediately sold before they get a chance to respond.  After a period of time with no interest from forum members, at least the seller gets the money and the reseller can make a few dollars.  There is no way to police this of course. 

11:47 a.m. on May 3, 2011 (EDT)
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Alan, you make an excellent point.

Gonzan, nwpacman is schanderl's eBay user ID.

1:53 p.m. on May 3, 2011 (EDT)
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Gonzan, nwpacman is schanderl's eBay user ID.

 

good information. I've wondered.

2:33 p.m. on May 3, 2011 (EDT)
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Looks like the pacman has 100% feedback for over 1200 transactions !!

Sounds like some people need to get over it and return this forum to buying, selling, trading, talking, posting, reviews, etc...

Not talking about someone who apparently has the upper hand on buying gear !!

If the guy burned you I think you can let it go now !!!!

I think someone spends way to much time looking for someone or something to stew about ??

Abman, I think it's time to let it go...

3:15 p.m. on May 3, 2011 (EDT)
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Have you bothered to read the thread? Maybe you've missed the main point? Or rather, you don't care to get the gist of the thread. That happens a lot.

4:22 p.m. on May 3, 2011 (EDT)
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zeno marx

if i had to make a guess schanderl, mr moss, and sjsbackpacker are all the same guy. at least all of them use the same punctuation structure all of them also have aol mailing address. and two of them just don't seem to get it at all.

really funny if i am right. sjs cut into mr.moss sale thread and said that he was also interested in the tarp that he was trying to sell. also interesting the other really weird person i have dealt with off ebay also had a very high number or sales all with 100% positive feedback...hmmmm

looks like some people just can't help but police themselves. 

5:41 p.m. on May 3, 2011 (EDT)
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lazya4- I guess dave and Alicia checked the IP address and the sentence structure your talking about from what I see..That both are Banned and I thought sjsbackpacker was a new backpacker but when they PM'd me they were atimate about a Dana Design single A fram tarp. But I knew where a Henry Shire was for sale and hadn't sold..

All the PIF items I have is from my gear I need to part with that was mine. my dads. some from my brother and 4 of my friends who have switched to lighter gear...They said to let someone have it that will use it...

4:48 p.m. on May 5, 2011 (EDT)
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His predatory behavior is quite ballsy. Scours Buy It Now sales on eBay and lists many of them within a few days for 100-400% mark-up. Black Dana Bridger for $75 BIN and then sells it for $380 a week later. I know first hand that he talks unaware sellers into adding the Buy It Now option so he can buy gear out from underneath everyone else, and then list it at huge mark-up. I realize this isn't Trailspace business, but it is yet another way this person feeds off the friendly or ignorant. Really makes the outdoor community look like slime.

3:41 a.m. on May 9, 2011 (EDT)
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This has been up for while with a lot of people weighing in, which is just what I wanted.  I sensed and underlying (actually it was quite obvious) need to air this out.

First of all I’d like to invite you all to a new Pilot airing of the first episode of “CSI TRAILSPACE”.   Staring Dave & Alicia, with special investigative roles by Abman 47 & lazy4.  Supporting roles by many other’s on Trailspace.  The first episode, case off  the “really?, who’s Moss tent was that”

Kudos in all your deductive reasoning and investigative computer skills, as well as your grammar and sentence structure skills.  I never would have caught the fact that Sisbackpacker and Schanderl  are one and the same.  And then making the connection that he is also nwpackman on eBay.  I did think it a bit odd when the For sale : Dana designs tarp tent !! came up for sale for $150,  but didn’t think much more about it till all of this came to light.

Ok, back to topic.

I think that most people on trailspace are honest and really care about the art of outdoor exploration in it’s different incarnations as well as getting to know and helping each other.  It also seems to me that the old timers here have created quite a family atmosphere and experience, inviting those new people like myself with open arms.  I want to say thanks for all the help, kindness, and valuable information.  It’s fun to listen to all of you and it’s fun to chime in once in a while (or a lot ;-}>).

So far, from what I’ve seen “most” all the people here have conducted themselves with transparency and honesty.  Many of us use Ebay and Craigslist as a resource as it should be.  I for one collect tents and would have never found the tents I have if not for either of those sites.  One of the problems is, I can see new people who do not care about Trailspace trying using it as money making resource.  It may be that some of the Community Rules and Guidelines should be amended as necessary, to include not buying items off of Trailspace for the pourpose of profit.  In Rule 4 it states “:

Be yourself.

Fellow members want to know and trust you. Be authentic, sincere, and honest. Don’t pretend to be someone you’re not or otherwise misrepresent your true identity.

If you have any personal or professional relationship with an outdoor company or its competitors, say so in your member profile and in all relevant posts or reviews.”  This Does not say anything about “individuals” buying and selling for a profit.  Maybe it should .  

 Rule 12 says:  “Post only non-commercial content.  Do not post advertising, commercial or promotional posts, paid links, or affiliate marketing in the forums or gear reviews.

The Classifieds Forum is the sole exception. Here individuals (but not businesses or individuals posting on behalf of a business) may buy, sell, and trade gear.”

Rules 4, 12, and 13 have all played a role in how everything has transpired here.  I belive they are well written rules, but I think what has happened has makes it necessary to add or amend so that everyone who joins Trailspace knows the importance of maintaining the ideals of the site.  (again just my thoughts)

Many people do not consider an individual buying and selling as a commercial enterprise or business, just as having a garage sale is not a storefront even if you have the sale week after week.   It may also need to say something about mentioning that you do buy and or sell on Ebay/Craigslist or other sites.  Just a suggestion.  I for one will not buy things on Trailspace to resell for a profit elsewhere.  If I buy something on Trailspace and decide I don’t want it I will post it for the same amount of money that I paid for it, which may include shipping.  If it doesn’t sell on Trailspace I’ll then look elsewhere to sell the item.  For reasons of transparency my eBay handle is “smokinnn” (no, not that, from the movie The Mask”)

On PIF.  I think that denis daly and mikemorrow’s idea of a PIF is wonderful, especially for those persons new to the outdoor experience and or those who want to share  a quality experience with others by PIFing extra gear.  I think it needs to be added that if a person can’t use the item the recived from PIF  then they need to PIF said item to someone else.   One of the things I think needs to be addressed is what constitutes a “For Trusted Trailspace member(s)“ as listed in the PIF rules.  I believe that maybe you should have to be a full member before being able to receive a PIF.  There is no way to stop someone from joining Trailspace for the sole sake a PIF.  (that has already happened to me)  I also think that the “final rules” of PIF should be placed in the “Community Rules and Guidelines”,  if PIF is here to stay, and I hope it is.  (just my thoughts).   I’ve been thinking about this for a while and I’m sure there are things I haven’t covered but I’ve probably said enough (or to much?)

11:18 p.m. on May 11, 2011 (EDT)
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I have bought and sold gear and other things on eBay and Craigslist, including everything from packs, tents, stoves, boots, skis, clothes and even a car. Not as a business, but to get and get rid of stuff I either wanted or didn't want or need.  I made money on one purchase I can think of where I had bought something on Craigslist and sold it a year later for more than I paid for it. Didn't feel bad about that at all since it was an in demand item and I sold it for half off retail

Sites like Trailspace have a classified section as a plus for members; some sites like Views from the Top do not because the site owner doesn't want the hassle and he says so right on the site.

Trailspace, like many camping sites is free to members and the sponsors support the site. I belong to several that work that way. That is one reason the buy/sell rules are set up that way.  Other sites I belong to have similar rules about personal sales only. Some forbid eBay listings.

I have nothing against buying and selling gear to make money, but this isn't the place to do that.  If you can get deals on eBay or Craigslist, then resell and make money, good for you, but everyone has to respect the site owner's rules.  If you don't agree with them, you are free to start your own site. I don't think it's as easy as you may think to run a site this big.

If you want to read the ultimate story on trading stuff-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_red_paperclip

April 20, 2014
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