Everest Brawl - the Sherpa's Side

7:00 p.m. on August 13, 2013 (EDT)
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A lot of talk a while ago about a now-famous brawl between a few foreign climbers and a group of Sherpas. We heard from Ueli Steck and Simone, but now that Sherpas' side of it.

http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/climbing/mountaineering/everest-2013/Tashi-Sherpa-Interview.html?page=1

8:49 p.m. on August 13, 2013 (EDT)
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Of course, we'll never know the true picture. Both sides could be telling the truth--from their point of view.

But I've always felt Sherpas have been stepped on by rich tourists. I believe if you're a "guest" in somebody's "home," you should be respectful and appreciative of their hospitality.

11:19 p.m. on August 13, 2013 (EDT)
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All of the recent news coming out of Mt. Everest is depressing.  From trash, to fights, to theft, to "guides" leaving others to die... I think the obsession of climbing Everest has left it in a worst state.  I heard an NPR article recently about Everest and it just bummed me out.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/02/books/review/Barcott-t.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

http://www.npr.org/2013/06/02/187537997/mount-everest-climber-warns-of-an-overpopulated-mountain

9:34 a.m. on August 14, 2013 (EDT)
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Depressing articles, indeed, macchiolives. What a shame. 

9:43 a.m. on August 14, 2013 (EDT)
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Sherpas are almost always Buddhists that are resigned to a "life of suffering." If they are upset, it is probably because people got really out of line. I agree that Everest is not the close mountain community it once was. There are too many dollars and egos in the mix.

1:57 p.m. on September 5, 2013 (EDT)
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Looks like we'll see the video at Reel Rock

2:44 p.m. on September 5, 2013 (EDT)
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ppine said:

Sherpas are almost always Buddhists that are resigned to a "life of suffering." If they are upset, it is probably because people got really out of line. I agree that Everest is not the close mountain community it once was. There are too many dollars and egos in the mix.

 Are you kidding me? The sherpas I met...litterally dozens, were not resigned to a life of suffering at all. They were becoming upwardly mobile in their economy. Working to better themselves. Some have great guiding companies of their own that they forged from farming, trekking and taking english and computer classes to be more employable to europeans and Americans. More languages means more money. Better jobs. Better gear. More money to bring home. They all carry cell phones and wear name brand gear.  Buddhists believe that all suffering derives from Karma. They also believe that suffering is a springboard for motivation and a deeper understanding of happiness Westerners think (because they tend to be ethnocentric) they KNOW what all the people of the world think and feel.  Karma is not FATE. Westerners too often think that is what it means or that it is some kind of cosmic justice system. This is not a Buddhist understanding of karma. Not to mention there is a difference between a sherpa and a Sherpa. Many sherpa's are not Sherpa people at all. You make these culturally offensive statements like you know what you are talking about but you seem not to really have any facts. Many are Hindi. Some are even, God forbid...CHRISTIAN. And some who identify as buddhist don't give a rats patuti about religeon. Good God, the sherpas have spoken to the press about what it was that happened and why it upset them. Having far more to do with safty and an agreement not to climb over their ropes and place them in danger than any Buddhist principles you foist upong them quaintly.

11:52 a.m. on September 6, 2013 (EDT)
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Gab, very well put.  Heaven forbid we consider sherpas to be individuals, capable of acting outside of some stereotype. 

10:50 a.m. on September 14, 2013 (EDT)
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 Dukkha is roughly translated as "suffering" in the Buddhist religion. It is a focus of study but more correctly relates to how to avoid suffering.

I have always enjoyed friendships with Buddhists and especially Hindus because their thinking is so different than most westerners. I have a close friendship with a physical therapist that happens to be Hindu. After a difficult accident he "pushed me hard with one finger." I am able to walk because of his skill and try to show gratitude everyday for the ability to be out in the mountains.

3:32 p.m. on September 14, 2013 (EDT)
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What is surprising to me is that these individuals even found the strength to fight each other and behave inappropriately at this incredible altitude! Religious ideology be darned, I have difficulty putting one foot in front of the other at altitude, never mind engage in a slug-fest at 20k+ feet! I'm sure giftogab can chime in with personal experience with the challenges posed by the altitude, but the whole scene seemed unbelievable.

I don't know about all of you - but I'm always especially shocked by bad behavior in the backcountry.  I expect it in densely populated areas, but I go to the hills to feel safe!

3:40 p.m. on September 14, 2013 (EDT)
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Seth. The sherpas really do perform above the level of the clients. Stereotype or not, they just do. At near 18,000 feet they were swinging pick axes breaking ice like they were working att sea level. And laughing and talking whilst working. Many many of them live high in the mountains all year long.

5:18 p.m. on September 14, 2013 (EDT)
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There are also genetic differences between the sherpas and people living at lower altitudes that allow for better use of the available oxygen. The same mutation can be found in some of the tribes who've evolved at the higher altitudes of the Andes. 

7:39 p.m. on September 14, 2013 (EDT)
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I spent three weeks in the Andes and felt totally normal at 13,000 feet. With some practice it is possible to adjust to higher elevations in a short amount of time. I used to play in a basketball league in Laramie, WY at 7200 feet against college kids. There may be genetic differences, but the human body can adjust to altitude in a matter of months up to a point, say 16-18,000 feet.

9:55 p.m. on September 14, 2013 (EDT)
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A bit off topic, but my favorite restaurant in Bolder, Co is called "Sherpa's." All the staff immigrated from Nepal. The chef states he has summitted Everest 10 times. The food is authentic and wonderful. In case you're wondering, you can buy Yak meat from ranchers in Kansas.

If you're ever in Boulder: http://www.sherpasrestaurant.com/

11:00 p.m. on September 14, 2013 (EDT)
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Wow!! I would love to go there!!!

7:15 p.m. on September 15, 2013 (EDT)
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ppine said:

....There may be genetic differences, but the human body can adjust to altitude in a matter of months up to a point, say 16-18,000 feet.

 There are significant genetic differences, which the research in high altitudes over the years has demonstrated. Something like 10% of humans cannot adjust to altitudes in the range of 9000 to 12,000 ft even with slow altitude gains (1000 feet/day), following the "climb high and sleep low" standard approach that is recommended. Acetazolamide helps some of these, but not all. I have several friends (including my primary care physician) who fall in this group. At the same time a small percentage of people can adjust significantly more rapidly (within a few days rather than weeks) than the general population (I was one of the subjects in a study about 10 years ago where we were selected from people who spent time at high altitude, mostly high altitude climbers), and our DNA sampled and mapped - the percentage of rapid adapters was in the range of 5-6%, though I do not remember the exact percentage right at the moment). According to that study and subsequent followups found that there are 6 genetic markers associated with more rapid acclimatization.

The studies over the years do show that the Sherpas in Tibet and Nepal and Quechua and Aymara in the Andes have a much higher percentage of rapid adapters than westerners, though some in each of these groups are susceptible to altitude sickness.

Your broad generalization that "the human body can adjust" is misleading. Some can and some cannot. Some who do not adjust well are helped by acetazolamide, and others are not helped. A recent study with ibuprofen found that some adjust more rapidly with use of ibuprofen as a prophylactic (about 60% in the study) while others showed no improvement. The articles on these studies were published in refereed journals, and were carried out by long-time researchers in the field.

9:40 a.m. on September 16, 2013 (EDT)
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Thanks, Bill. I knew I'd seen something about the genetic differences a while ago, but the information I had was far less comprehensive that what you've provided. 

Fascinating stuff!

10:05 a.m. on September 16, 2013 (EDT)
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Bill,

Thank-you for your explanation.

12:47 p.m. on September 16, 2013 (EDT)
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I share a special connections with my sherpa friends. I remain involved with the Sherpa community...both Sherpas and sherpas in the region. I, along with others, (some from this very website) have raised money to assist in installing electrical power to the untouchables in the sherpa community who wer not allowed to receive the services when it was brought to the village. They certainly did not simply aquiece to their suffering. Instead embraced a way to bring themselves out of it. Not by asking for it to be given, either. that was OUR gift to them. In this cae, five families have lights who didn't prior to Spring 2013. I provide money for education as well. I love my Sherpa "adopted son" Mane like he was my very own. He has brought another dynamic to life...he IS a hard working man who loves his family and will do anything to provide a better life for them. My father did that for his family. I work with other Sherpa people on line as well. They are quite computer literate and reach out to the world they may never even see in person. BillS has the technical explanations about their physiology. going to Altitude is not something everyone can do and it is not something you can just TRAIN to do. I have been fortunate with altitude as far as HAPE or HACE is concerned, but even that can change the very next time I go. (we will see in Peru, I guess!). I am sure I will love the people there too. But I have loved my sherpa friends for decades.

6:10 p.m. on September 16, 2013 (EDT)
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 I thought this article about Sherpa life may be of interest to you.

8:34 p.m. on September 23, 2013 (EDT)
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violence should not have been used by either side regardless of who's "ego" was stepped on. Pathetic display of brains and self control for all parties involved.

10:21 a.m. on September 24, 2013 (EDT)
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iClimb. That is easy to say from a westerners perspective, and for the most part, true. However, when the arrogant westerners who are asserting there "independance" by not being part of the organization utilazing sherpas and there work, disregard the safty of the workers and add insult to injury by calling them Mother@^$*ers, in their own language, making it clear they want their message known to the sherpas, it is not hard to see why the sherpas view them as parasites and finally have enough. And at 21k feet they are not particularly taxed. And for the "elite" climbers to even get to where they were fixing ropes, they had to USE the ladders in the ice fall and the ropes. Yet they look down on sherpa support and those who use it. I am not condoning the behavior, but I do understand it and place a greater share of the blame on the climbers.

11:16 a.m. on September 24, 2013 (EDT)
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ppine said:

I have always enjoyed friendships with Buddhists and especially Hindus because their thinking is so different than most westerners. 

I suspect that most Buddhists, Hindus and Sherpas would disagree with the suggestion that their religions could all be lumped into one general category of 'eastern religions'. And you could always toss Zoroastrians and Confucians into the mix and make it REALLY confusing!

Are you sure you're not working with just another western stereotype? 

11:26 a.m. on September 24, 2013 (EDT)
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Did anyone see the video footage of the fight at Reel Rock?  That should settle things. I am going to miss it Friday in Spokane unfortunately :(

9:49 a.m. on September 25, 2013 (EDT)
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Gift - nah, it's just a lack of self control and good values. I don't care how insulting someone is to me, I'm not going to physically attack them. I reserve my physical attacks for self defense or defending my family.

Culturally, respect is VERY important across the world. It's not isolated to westerners or sherpas alone. BOTH parties felt "dissed" and needed to puff out their chest and try to save face because they felt disrespected. In reality, if the arrogant type A personalities on both sides who instigated violence or retribution had had some humility and self control, this wouldn't even be an article.

What I'm saying, in short, is that these climbers are boys in a school yard. They are not men. Men control themselves.

10:55 a.m. on September 25, 2013 (EDT)
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iClimb said:

... the arrogant type A personalities...

Just throwing it out there, but pretty much every climber I've ever met is a Type A personality. Seems to go with the territory. 

11:29 a.m. on September 25, 2013 (EDT)
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Well iClimb, that is a purely western perspective on the cause of such reactions. If your value system teaches you a certain way to behave and someone elses value system teaches differently, who is right? Should I assume that when I am the Philipines and ask for directions, the fact they will always give me an answer weather they know or not, that makes them difficiant in some way because they do not respond the way I want them to based on my culture? I ahve found that is what gets us the moniker UGLY AMERICAN. Because of our ethnocentric view of us as the center of the universe and everyone should conform to us. These climbers are guests in another country. They seem to forget that more times than not. I was watching a video news report after the event. Uli and Moro were puffing up about how they do this climb on their own without any support or supplemental O's. That is PURE BS...they use all of what is set up to get through the ice fall. They are paracites on the mountain and more often than not, that is what independant climbers are. They often stay in tents at high camps placed and stocked by sherpas, and they eat the food and take the O2. So if you are a sherpa and another arrogant bunch of idies comes along, that is the stereotype they start with and here the guys are knocking ice in their faces and calling them MF's in Nepali. I said I didn't condone the behaviour, but I understand it. And until teh west reports the wayt things are instend of the absolute spin I ahve seen in countless reports, nobody will understand the reason they snapped.

9:38 p.m. on September 25, 2013 (EDT)
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peter - haven't met me yet then :-) I am a rather passive and easy going individual, who loves a good discussion but who avoids conflict.

Gift - you sound purely angry at the climbers and as though you are defending the Sherpas. I understand your compassion for them after the experiences you have had. Also, you're assuming all I know about is western culture, and that I don't understand any other perspectives. It is my understanding that the climbers became physical first, and the Sherpa reacted back in camp. Quite frankly, I don't care whose fault it was that any of it started, I'm simply pointing out the fact that it is NEVER acceptable for violence to be used unless it is self defense or the defense of someone who needs help. I don't care what cultural differences were, in terms of respect and manners. Violence is not okay as a method of working out disagreements. The people who use it as such are pathetic, regardless of culture, Sherpas included. If they had fought back when the climbers were physical because they needed to defend themselves, fine.

3:37 p.m. on September 30, 2013 (EDT)
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iClimb said:

...I am a rather passive and easy going individual...

I think where I was going with the 'A' personality observation is that successful people in any area tend to be strong-willed and confident, and while I think a good climber has to have those traits, some express their ego in aggressive ways. 

4:49 p.m. on September 30, 2013 (EDT)
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Sage- I'm going to Reel Rock on Nov 30th at a local climbing gym. Interested to if this provide any more info on the topic!

8:59 a.m. on October 1, 2013 (EDT)
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iClimb...I think you are right about some biases I have regarding Sherpa's and these climbers...but watching interviews with the climbers, I don't think they are entirely misplaced. And while I might appear to be making assumptions about your familiarity with other cultures, some of the things you say about not caring about culture reveal that your reaction is purely Western. I stated that I do not condone these behaviors, but I do understand them. And the fact that these sherpas rely on living through the season to feed their families, while the climbers are largely there for pure recreation uts some reactions of the sherpas in perspective for me. They get hurt, the get very little. Their families often leave them if they are disabled. IF they are killed, most get about 4k US . So being condescending as these guys were, and I site their own words to the sherpas and the danger they placed them in in addition to their statements that they think people who use sherpas to climber are not really climbing the mountain; that they limb all by themselves and don't have to worry about the groups that plan climbing days and avoiding sherpa work it telling. They DO use the sherpas ladders and ropes, they just don't have sherpas hauling their stuff. They are parasites on the mountain. Many of these sorts of climbers take O2 from tents and eat the food in them as they ascend above the scheduled teams. I am not saying these guys did that but they are part of that culture of climbing Everest and I do have an anger about that. It is a horrible result that I believe was avoidable if the Westerners would have used the proper etiquette. So yeah, I blame them.

9:06 a.m. on October 1, 2013 (EDT)
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We will agree to disagree gift - my response is not purely western - violence is NEVER ok, anywhere in the world. No excuse will change my mind about that. I'm not blaming the Sherpa, I'm not blaming the climbers. As I said before, I don't care who was at fault. There's other methods to work things out without violence.

You won't change my mind. Violence as a means to work out a disagreement is not ok. Ever. Anywhere. I don't care what culture uses it.

4:34 p.m. on October 1, 2013 (EDT)
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I don't think we are that far apart iclimb. And as I have said each time. I understand it, but I don't condone it. I wish it had never happened. Period. But it did. I think where we part ways is that in the face of its unacceptableness, (WORD?) I have an interest in why and you don't. And that is ok. And thanks for the discussion too.

10:27 a.m. on October 26, 2013 (EDT)
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iClimb said:

..violence is NEVER ok, anywhere in the world...

Oh Oh!  Wise man says you step onto thin a snow bridge when declaring a universal truth.

Ah, such wisdom from such a young man!  To say violence is never acceptable is akin to saying (from my point of view) I can block out the sun with my raised thumb!  So true!  But also very subjective.  Abhorrence to violence is far from universal.  In fact it seems ubiquitous and integral to the vast majority of the human societies that ever existed, and resorted to on occasion by most every human that ever walked the face of this planet.  Setting aside our personal prerogatives, it is not hard to debate violence is sometimes an appropriate, even desirable behavior - under certain settings.  Certainly if a raccoon is about to make off with your steak, no one would question you chucking a rock in its direction, or suggest you reason with this thief!  And certainly the act of killing for meat is violent, no matter how humanely dinner was dispatched.  Even if you purchase your protein butchered, you still are violent by proxy.  Now should you choose to differentiate between employing violence against animals and violence directed at humans, do consider such distinctions may be speciocentric (pardon me whilst I speechify).  Certain Hindu sects definitely think it un-cool we slaughter cattle and exterminate rats.  And should you choose to consider slaughtering as a non-violent behavior, then you are drawing arbitrary value distinctions between behaviors with obvious biological motives, versus behaviors whose biological foundation are harder to pin down. 

On a more relevant vein, one might ponder the notion of capital punishment in the context of this discussion.  This violent behavior serves no obvious biological or defensive purpose, especially since it occurs substantially after the events that trigger this ritual.  The very fact capital punishment exists refutes your declaration; apparently society thinks violence is appropriate enough under certain circumstances that it be codified and sanctioned.  Beyond that you have so-called advanced societies who integrated ritualistic, extremely violent, human sacrifices into their religious and societal traditions, such as the Peruvian Moche, and the Mexican Aztec and Mayan nations.  I personally find capital punishment to serve no valid purpose, and find ritualistic animal and human sacrifices mind boggling crazy, but who am I?  As GoG points out we would be very provincial to dare impose our esthetics while passing judgment on the morays of other societies.

If you wish to declare any aesthetic as universally embraced, then certainly the notion that violence is unacceptable is as universal as the notion that no one should have to tolerate disrespect from their guests.  Given the Indie climbers’ actions, and given it transpired the Sherpa homeland - their place of work to be exact - and given the lack of intervening parties along with a general tendency for frontier justice to prevail in rustic settings,  it is hard to assign more than a modicum of blame to the Sherpa for this incident.   Their house, their rules.  The climbers escalated the incident and forced the Sherpas’ hand.  And apparently their rules tolerate their violent reaction to the climber’s behavior, given the context of these events.  That is self evident, especially given the number of individuals involved and the social standing of certain individuals present.  

I may not change your mind regarding your personal opinions about violence.  In fact my credo is very similar to yours.  But I would caution you to be more circumspect when outside-looking-in, attempting to second guess and judge the motives, morals and priorities of others, especially alien cultures.

Ed           

11:42 a.m. on October 26, 2013 (EDT)
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Peter,

My point is that eastern religions are much different than our own. I remember when M Ghandi was asked-"what do you think of western civilization?"  "I think it is a wonderful idea." he replied.

12:08 a.m. on October 27, 2013 (EDT)
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OH ED HOW I HAVE MISSED YOU!!!!!!!!

3:26 p.m. on October 28, 2013 (EDT)
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I believe the climbers were WAY in the wrong here. Like ED said, their house, their rules. They never should have taken it to the level that it escalated to and they should have respected the wishes of the Sherpa's to not climb above their ropes. They were, after all, guests in their country. It shows very poor ediqitte on the climbers and shones climbers in a very bad light.

7:34 p.m. on October 30, 2013 (EDT)
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Ed -

It is easy enough to place an overarching blanket on any statement to take it out of context and make it seem stupid. I wasn't talking about hunting, capital punishment, self defense, or scaring off a raccoon. I was talking about violence that is used when someone's "toes" get stepped on and they take themselves too seriously. They resort to physically hurting someone else rather then seeing that their own personal flaws and weaknesses are the true psychological damage, not the other person being "mean" to them.

By your statement, which so eloquently attempted to make me sound naive and foolish, you are saying that if you get into a debate or argument with someone, it's okay to start harming them! When someone disrespects you, Ed, do you begin to assault them? Does someone's culture give them a pass to do so? What would make it acceptable for one culture to use violence and not another? "Disrespect" is yet another subjective raised thumb blocking out the sun of logic. What one "culture" finds disrespectful, another wouldn't give a second look at. So my conclusion, therefore, is that EVERY culture has it wrong. Disrespect has nothing to do with you as a person, or you as a culture. It has to do with your ego, taking your views and your interests too seriously, and finding it disrespectful when someone else doesn't take it as seriously as you do. Because it is a 100% subjective matter, being disrespected is NEVER a reason to engage in violence or violating someone else's human right to be safe from injury.

When a wiseman chooses to crack his whip to teach poor little timmy a lesson, make sure timmy doesn't have a bigger whip. There's more to intelligence than age.

7:42 p.m. on October 30, 2013 (EDT)
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Also, there is no "outside looking-in." This is humanity. One species. There may be differences in views and a compartmentalization of values, but to simply look at those compartments as separate little worlds and to focus devotedly on those tiny differences, rather than see the bigger picture, is narrow minded and pedantic.

As always, a stimulating discussion. I respect you a great deal.

3:56 a.m. on November 1, 2013 (EDT)
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iClimb said:

..There's more to intelligence than age.

Oh I disagree with that, but my advancing age has caused me to forget the specifics of my retort. ;)

Sorry if I stepped on some toes, but I was not out to make anyone a fool, excepting maybe myself.  Mostly I was having fun with the topic – ergo some of the over the top digressions in my previous post.  But in a more serious vein, sharing the same genome does not mean humans share the same principles.  They try to drum the notion of universal truth into us in college philosophy courses and in church.  I remain unimpressed.  If there are universal truths they are probably deeper than human emotional frivolity, and transcend beyond the scope of our specie.  Universal truths are probably more like the laws of physics than Hammurabi's Code of Laws.  Humans embrace many commonly shared values, but few if any are truly universally embraced  across all cultures.  There are significant cultural differences, even at a fundamental level.  There is plenty alien about other cultures, like the values driving courtly behavior in King Henry V!!!’s, Genghis Khan’s, and Saddam Hussein's  regimes, therefore plenty of outside from which to look in.  On a side note: I survived a severe head injury decades ago.  I have lost the capacity to bond with others, to feel love, feel empathy and so many other capacities that define our human conscience experience.  Morality has transformed from something I once held a deep belief in to something akin to mere traffic laws used to navigate social interactions.  What formerly seemed righteous and transcendent in my heart and mind now frequently seems arbitrary, even capricious, and anything but universal.  I have learned the human mindscape is vast and widely variant in its topography.  It not only has room for opposing views between adversaries on any given topic, it has room enough for such contradiction to coexist within the individual soul.  You will have to take my word, when I say we are far from one specie sharing universal values. 

I am not the most traveled person.  To my knowledge there are only two universal truths: one is you don’t interrupt someone while they are taking a crap.  That is bad style points in every culture I have encountered.  The other universal truth is equally absurd, but is more humorous.  Unfortunately I forgot it - so much for being a wise old man.  Despite my provincial existence I have seen enough of other cultures to realize in some settings it is appropriate – indeed expected – that blatant disrespect be answered with a physically aggressive response.  This is widespread in prison culture, but also is a practice among many tribal cultures.  For example it was (is?) a capital crime to show your heels to the sultan in certain Middle Eastern societies.  Our cultures has become more “refined” and moved away from such barbaric (sic) traditions, but cultural evolution favors neither progression nor regression.  It seems we mostly go in circles.  Thus our lofty and righteous cultural notions are temporal, plastic to the forces surrounding us.  Do not fret if others getting all wrapped around the axle over respect seems so wrong (foreign); our current culture seems to think respect is overrated, to the point that children disrespect their parents, and citizens disrespect all manner of civil institutions.  But even in our civil culture if one acts un-rulely (read disrespectfully) in congressional chambers, a courtroom, a humble town hall meeting, or my house, it is pretty certain the Sergeant At Arms will eject the miscreant, by force if necessary.  Sometimes you are compelled to show respect, else face the consequences.  Even in our society.

Ed

9:21 a.m. on November 1, 2013 (EDT)
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Good tip about taking a crap, need to remember that one.

11:27 a.m. on November 1, 2013 (EDT)
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Ed you definitely didn't step on my toes. I was more or less defending my points and views in a way to snuff out the seemingly ad hominem method I thought you used so that others wouldn't ignore my points simply because of my age.

We can agree to disagree. I feel as though a globalized and homogenous view is more appropriate, while you feel that individual differences in culture and personality allow for martial law. I get it.

Culture means everything to the people immersed in it, yet it holds no importance in any bigger scheme. Every culture could find offense in such a statement, even including the one I may identify with more often than not. 

11:31 a.m. on November 1, 2013 (EDT)
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also I find it important to say that I am educated and intelligent, and aware of the importance that culture holds for people all over the world. While I may see cultures as the equivalent of a more grown up version of high school cliques, it doesn't mean I act disrespectfully towards others. I show respect to what others find important on a daily basis, in fact, even if it is blatantly against my views.

4:16 p.m. on November 1, 2013 (EDT)
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while you feel that individual differences in culture and personality allow for martial law.

Martial Law and justified individual use of force are not the same thing and have nearly opposite motivations and function. 

7:00 p.m. on November 1, 2013 (EDT)
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i was being a little sarcastic gonzan. I know the differences. And obviously I feel that no one, the climbers or Sherpa, were justified in using force on one another. That's the whole discussion really.

Self defense, defending your family, protecting your life or someone else's - use all the force you need. I know I sure would. Violence to solve a disagreement? Childish.

10:45 p.m. on November 1, 2013 (EDT)
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iClimb said:

... I feel as thougha globalized and homogenous view is more appropriate, while you feel that individual differences in culture and personality allow for martial law. I get it.

Culture means everything to the people immersed in it, yet it holds no importance in any bigger scheme. Every culture could find offense in such a statement, even including the one I may identify with more often than not. 

 And this is a truly egocentric thought process.

10:42 a.m. on November 2, 2013 (EDT)
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giftogab said:

It is a horrible result that I believe was avoidable if the Westerners would have used the proper etiquette. So yeah, I blame them.

 giftogab, do you believe everything in outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/climbing/mountaineering/everest-2013/Tashi-Sherpa-Interview.html?page=1 considering that sherpas admitted that they lied about this event?

"Earlier, we lied to people saying that it was from a slip, but in fact a chunk of ice had struck him."

I believe that earlier statement was correct and that later on a decision was made to attribute this bruise to the "chunk of ice" dislodged by Moro or Ueli.

I believe that interpretation by Denis Urubko (who has no stake in commercial Himalayan expedition) is the most sensible one.

Original Russian version can be found at: urubko.blogspot.ca/2013/05/khumbu-wars.html.

Translation by Google: translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Furubko.blogspot.ca%2F2013%2F05%2Fkhumbu-wars.html

The quality of translation is not that good but still sufficient to understand Urubko's main idea that this conflict was mainly about money and negotiations between sherpas and commercial expeditions. Incident with Moro or Ueli was used just as an excuse in their negotiation tactic.

1:51 p.m. on November 2, 2013 (EDT)
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G2G - I see why you would think of it as egocentric, but in fact it is the exact opposite. I'm taking such a neutral and global perspective that I realize even my own biases and culture is subjective and basically worthless. But that means everyone else's is worthless and subjective as well.

Try it with your own views sometime. Challenging yourself to get outside of your own head and own routines is harder than you think, and it's the reason most people take a defensive stance against the views I'm suggesting.

11:45 p.m. on November 6, 2013 (EST)
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Its all good, Iclimb.  But perhaps one last bit of clarity.

iClimb said:

We can agree to disagree. ..you feel that individual differences in culture and personality allow for martial law.

Well if we agree to disagree, whatever our differences, let me clarify the above assertion, I don't feel these differences allow (legitimize?) martial law, I only assert violence manifests in humanity at all levels from the individual to the nation state.  It comes quite naturally, which is why we are compelled to draft laws to address violence - and likewise codify when and how it gets mettled out  Alas it takes a lot more than laws to make civilization civil.

Ed

9:32 a.m. on November 7, 2013 (EST)
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Yury said:

giftogab said:

It is a horrible result that I believe was avoidable if the Westerners would have used the proper etiquette. So yeah, I blame them.

 giftogab, do you believe everything in outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/climbing/mountaineering/everest-2013/Tashi-Sherpa-Interview.html?page=1 considering that sherpas admitted that they lied about this event?

"Earlier, we lied to people saying that it was from a slip, but in fact a chunk of ice had struck him."

I believe that earlier statement was correct and that later on a decision was made to attribute this bruise to the "chunk of ice" dislodged by Moro or Ueli.

I believe that interpretation by Denis Urubko (who has no stake in commercial Himalayan expedition) is the most sensible one.

Original Russian version can be found at: urubko.blogspot.ca/2013/05/khumbu-wars.html.

Translation by Google: translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Furubko.blogspot.ca%2F2013%2F05%2Fkhumbu-wars.html

The quality of translation is not that good but still sufficient to understand Urubko's main idea that this conflict was mainly about money and negotiations between sherpas and commercial expeditions. Incident with Moro or Ueli was used just as an excuse in their negotiation tactic.

 Thanks for the link...will read it and see what it changes for me, if anything.

9:39 a.m. on November 7, 2013 (EST)
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iClimb said:

G2G - I see why you would think of it as egocentric, but in fact it is the exact opposite. I'm taking such a neutral and global perspective that I realize even my own biases and culture is subjective and basically worthless. But that means everyone else's is worthless and subjective as well.

Try it with your own views sometime. Challenging yourself to get outside of your own head and own routines is harder than you think, and it's the reason most people take a defensive stance against the views I'm suggesting.

 I appreciate the challenge. But you assume I don't think in ways that challenge my own biases. However, the job I do REQUIRES me to do that every single day. I do a lot of Federal Habeas Corpus work. In it I have to divorce myself completely from a passionate view of the facts and work solely on the mechanics of the law. That is not easy. It is my job, not to win but to seek justice and I take it very seriously. And creating vanilla picture of the world when assessing WHY something happens is egocentric to the extent you do not allow for the fact that cultures do operate seperately from one another and therefore what a person in Africa in a tribal culture that has the women as the head of the family does depends on a hole defferent set of rules. For instance, put the woman of that tribe next to a Saudi woman and ask them who should make the decisions in the household and your answers will be adamantly different. I cannot wish that away with a simple decision on my part to view them as needing to live by the same set of rules I decide is the right one.

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