They haven't closed Rainier, Denali, or Everest....

7:39 p.m. on June 20, 2014 (EDT)
MODERATOR TOP 10 REVIEWER REVIEW CORPS
6,522 reviewer rep
891 forum posts

(...okay, yeah, Everest cancelled the current climbing season)

But my point is why is it that people can die on a mountain without talk of permanently closing it, but one injury in a cave and "The danger...is just too great?"

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/19/injured-explorer-rescued-germany-deepest-cave

9:55 p.m. on June 20, 2014 (EDT)
TOP 10 REVIEWER REVIEW CORPS
2,445 reviewer rep
5,392 forum posts

A bit of a correction - only the south side of Everest has been closed for the season. The north side (Tibet) is still quite active, as are other parts of the Himalaya.

One thing to note is the reported cost and complexity of the rescue operation. Climbing rescues are typically much lower in cost, much less complex, and involve far fewer personnel. But make no mistake - climbing accidents have more than their share of calls for closing the mountains and (witness New England over the past couple of years) requiring large insurance fees before allowing someone onto the mountain.

Same goes for river running, air shows, automobile races, boat races (especially the "round the world" ones that involves Drakes Passage).

If it is higher risk than sitting on the couch watching the TV and munching potato chips and bratwurst, there is a group crying out for banning it.

There are a lot of climbing closures, including areas that are permanently closed to climbing in the US and elsewhere. Some of these are seasonal, such as raptor closures (not many of those in spelunking, are there). Pinnacles NP has condor closures which are seasonal, plus a rule that you are not allowed to get within 25 feet of a condor (there are many climbers in Pinn who have had a condor land on a ledge within 5-10 feet when at the crux of a climb - they shall remain unnamed to protect the guilty).

8:37 a.m. on June 21, 2014 (EDT)
MODERATOR TOP 10 REVIEWER REVIEW CORPS
6,522 reviewer rep
891 forum posts

Bill, every federally owned cave east of the Rockies has been closed due to White Nose Syndrome in bats. (Except tourist caves. Apparently, all the rhetoric on human transmission doesn't apply when the government makes many from the cave....hmmm!)

There are many private and state-owned caves that are closed. I used to be property manager for a cave that is only accessible for scientific research.

As far as cost, there must be a lot of hands in the pot for a 4 day rescue to cost "several million euros." I'm guessing that absurd number of 728 rescuers means a bunch of unneeded, expensive alpine rescue teams flew into the area, stayed in hotels, and ate at fancy restaurants while they waited for their 10 minutes of rotation--if they even went underground. 

The US is smart enough to rely primarily on volunteer rescue teams. And they wouldn't put an alpine team on a cave rescue, unless they were trained for it.

Of course, I don't know the full details. But it's a political overreaction, and it burns my biscuits to think one incident is going to close this cave. More people die in car accidents in one day than have ever died in a cave, but no one discusses closing an interstate.

9:57 a.m. on June 21, 2014 (EDT)
225 reviewer rep
1,202 forum posts

I see it as the overall Gypsy Types vs The State---and the state wants desperately to control our nature experiences.  As Ed Abbey said, have fun in the wilderness BUT ONLY IN A CLOCKWISE DIRECTION. 

"Unauthorized Sleeping" in nature must frequently be tabulated and organized with fee vouchers and affidavits and permits and regulations and all else as the state authorities, the Tent Police, will never be happy with free ranging humans, i.e. "gypsies".  So, if someone dies on a mountain or in the Smokies or in a cave then the honchos come out with a bright and shining plan to limit access and institute fees, or just close the spot off.  Meanwhile, a billion cars surround the place on area roads and 80,000 jet airliners fly overhead and personal drones fly in with gopro madness to get their no-calorie nature-fix.

I pity the coming generation who won't ever handle a toad and instead text madly inside a LCD screen stupor.  And when the population hits 450,000,000 by 2050, well, who will give a crap about sleeping outside?  Phew, another rant.

11:16 a.m. on June 21, 2014 (EDT)
REVIEW CORPS
592 reviewer rep
1,518 forum posts

The south side of Everest is not closed either. It was actually climbed despite the teams leaving. So you can close anything you want, but unless you fence it off or fill it in....it is open.

11:17 a.m. on June 21, 2014 (EDT)
TOP 10 REVIEWER REVIEW CORPS
2,445 reviewer rep
5,392 forum posts

It isn't just the wilderness. The City of Palo Alto where I live, and the home of Stanford University, is by decree of the City Council a Liberal City. The current brouhaha is an extension of the "sit-lie" ordinance. "Sit-Lie" ordinances forbid sitting or laying on the sidewalk and are primarily aimed at keeping the homeless out of our fair city. The extension has been to forbid camping in your car at Cubberly, formerly a school which was closed when the population of children decreased to the point that several of the public schools were closed. For a number of years, the homeless were tolerated in the large parking area and allowed to use the public showers there. Last year, the rules were changed so that overnight parking there is forbidden. The "fair-minded" Council also forbade the local Walmart from allowing overnight parking of RVs, though that is a WalMart tradition from many years back.

But WAIT! THERE IS MORE!!!! The police collect evidence of violations of the ordinances - if you  possess a sleeping bag, have food in your vehicle, eat in your vehicle, stay in your car to get out of the rain, have books in the car, or speak on your cell phone, that has been used as evidence of your violation of the laws. Sleeping in the car when parked on the street is definitely a violation.

There were a number of incidents that triggered the new ordinances, among them some of the homeless relieving themselves on residents' lawns and dumping trash. Still, almost all of the homeless shelters have been closed.

Yes, we are Liberal and care for our fellow humans.

1:42 p.m. on June 21, 2014 (EDT)
REVIEW CORPS
592 reviewer rep
1,518 forum posts

I love it when San Fran wanted to require by ordinance, that animals not be fed tap water in their dishes......only purified water would be legal and they could come and check. The Bay area is more and more run by a puletbeurou (Which I cannot spell.)

2:58 p.m. on June 21, 2014 (EDT)
225 reviewer rep
1,202 forum posts

One good EMP attack and all these rules go into the hobo stew pot.

4:03 p.m. on June 21, 2014 (EDT)
TOP 10 REVIEWER REVIEW CORPS
3,627 reviewer rep
1,274 forum posts

The mountains are dangerous but 32,000+ were killed on the roads and they're still open so...

I have food, books AND a sleeping bag in my car,  I should tkeep a low profile I guess ;)  I don't know how people put up with the People's Republic of California some times; the mountains, beaches and women are really pretty but geez...

Of course my beloved Washington has issues too, even on the blessed East side of the state, so nowhere is perfect.  If it were, they'd definitely keep me out.

9:04 p.m. on June 21, 2014 (EDT)
MODERATOR TOP 10 REVIEWER REVIEW CORPS
6,522 reviewer rep
891 forum posts

Tipi Walter said:

One good EMP attack and all these rules go into the hobo stew pot.

 Yep!

Some days I wish the power grid would go down for a few days so people could actually see the night sky for once in their life.

9:06 p.m. on June 21, 2014 (EDT)
MODERATOR TOP 10 REVIEWER REVIEW CORPS
6,522 reviewer rep
891 forum posts

giftogab said:

The south side of Everest is not closed either. It was actually climbed despite the teams leaving. So you can close anything you want, but unless you fence it off or fill it in....it is open.

 One of the problems with caves, is that they frequently get gated to ensure closure.


Bearver-Completedcave.jpg

11:43 a.m. on June 22, 2014 (EDT)
TOP 10 REVIEWER REVIEW CORPS
2,445 reviewer rep
5,392 forum posts

When I was actively spelunking in the 1960s, there were many open caves here in California. Unfortunately, there were certain people who raided the speleothems. Plus several of the Grottos (chapters of the NSS) had a fierce rivalry over which of them "owned" which cave. A couple of the grottos started gating "their" caves, and the NPS and USFS gated a number of caves that were targeted by the "collectors". You could get permission and the key from the rangers, if you could produce valid credentials (I was helping one of the geology professors from my grad school with mapping several caves).

7:57 a.m. on June 23, 2014 (EDT)
MODERATOR TOP 10 REVIEWER REVIEW CORPS
6,522 reviewer rep
891 forum posts

Bill, that hasn't changed. And the politics of the NSS is why I'm not a member anymore.

A sad note is they closed all those caves for White Nose Syndrome. Now governments are discovering those caves have been heavily vandalized. Cavers...who are obeying the stupid closures...love and take care of caves. Drunken trespassers don't give a rip about the damage they cause.

9:35 a.m. on June 24, 2014 (EDT)
REVIEW CORPS
592 reviewer rep
1,518 forum posts

Touche, Goose. Sorry your activity is so impacted to your detriment. Maybe some perspective? There is still so much beauty for those of us who are at least mobile to see. (Feeling sorry for myself during a huge arthritis attack that is hurting my training).

10:39 a.m. on June 25, 2014 (EDT)
MODERATOR TOP 10 REVIEWER REVIEW CORPS
6,522 reviewer rep
891 forum posts

Arthritis sucks, GoG!

Hope your back in the saddle soon!

10:19 a.m. on August 10, 2014 (EDT)
121 reviewer rep
605 forum posts

Well I'm certainly glad rainier didn't close since I was there climbing 2 weeks after the accident on liberty ridge!

6:34 p.m. on August 10, 2014 (EDT)
REVIEW CORPS
592 reviewer rep
1,518 forum posts

Great iClimb! Did you have a good time?

9:35 p.m. on August 11, 2014 (EDT)
121 reviewer rep
605 forum posts

Yes it was great. Turned around from a lenticular cap suspended over the summit with crazy winds, white out snow, etc. But the 2 days on the mountain were epic. I was in heaven and loved climbing. Can't wait to go back, might be next June with 2 weeks to wait out storms if need be instead of 4 days. We spent the rest of our time exploring the park which was great, and at our base camp also got to meet whittaker mountaineering legend Dave hahn (sp?) as he was leaving to try and get his 21st summit of denali. He has over 250 summits of rainier I believe, and the most summits of any non sherpa person of everest.

There was a woman who also died just east of us on the mountain on our second day. We heard the helicopter looking for her over the wind.

10:47 a.m. on August 12, 2014 (EDT)
REVIEW CORPS
592 reviewer rep
1,518 forum posts

WOW! Yes. As you can see by my profile pic, I have run into Whittaker notables too. (hee hee). Sounds like a great trip to the Big One in Seattle(ish). Miss seeing that mountain at every turn. Nothing like living in the Great PNW!

December 21, 2014
Quick Reply

Please sign in to reply

 
More Topics
This forum: Older: Climber Science Program Newer: The Yeti
All forums: Older: North Loop Mt. Charleston, Nevada Newer: MSR Solo Stove, Tough Tufto Pants, UTMB Ultra Pack