Ice Dawg can you make clear?

10:57 p.m. on November 24, 2002 (EST)
(Guest)

a.k.a. tuclimber

In an earlier thread you said this, "It would still be static equalized though like a simple 7mm cordelette. I am amazed at how many climbers: professionals, guides, manufactures and chabonis who know nothing or do not understand this saftey issue with anchors." Did you mean static equalization? Whatever you meant, can you explain just what it is that "isn't understood"?
I use a cordelette on three pieces with a masterpoint determined by a fig.8 on a bight(on the cord) almost whenever I am bringing up a second.
I am beginning to see what you (could) mean by that statement but I would like it if you could clairify and teach from it.
Thanks,
Chris

2:45 p.m. on November 27, 2002 (EST)
(Guest)

same old, same old

the dawg can respond to your question if he chooses. i scrolled down and found the post in its entirety. the problem i have w/ the original post is the same problem i have had w/ these posts for a couple of years, the information is arguable correct, but it is not qualified or placed in context. in all but the most unusual cases, the sliding X is not an acceptable power point for an anchor. build a couple of hundred SRENE anchors on trad lead, then make the call your own call on the magic X.

on an absolute crap anchor, a sliding X could be the way to go....but only after it has be determined that retreat is not an option and other anchor locations do not exist. if the direction of pull on a leader fall changes during the pitch (say from a downward pull right of the anchor to a side pull after a piece is placed on a traverse), then a magic X could be arguably correct assuming extension limiters are used. almost all of these conditions can be avoided w/ a bit of planning.

i am not sure where the term "static equalized" came from. i have never heard of it. an anchor built off a sliding X is only equalized until a piece fails, then it is shock loaded.

stick w/ SRENE anchors.


Quote:

In an earlier thread you said this, "It would still be static equalized though like a simple 7mm cordelette. I am amazed at how many climbers: professionals, guides, manufactures and chabonis who know nothing or do not understand this saftey issue with anchors." Did you mean static equalization? Whatever you meant, can you explain just what it is that "isn't understood"?
I use a cordelette on three pieces with a masterpoint determined by a fig.8 on a bight(on the cord) almost whenever I am bringing up a second.
I am beginning to see what you (could) mean by that statement but I would like it if you could clairify and teach from it.
Thanks,
Chris

11:55 p.m. on November 27, 2002 (EST)
(Guest)

Re: same old, same old

I have never heard the term "static equalized" either. I can see how if a piece pops on my normal anchor durring a traverseing lead or such, a single piece could be loaded; but at least it isn't shock loaded. And in either case I would build a three piece anchor designed for said traverse before the leader set out. Placing gear early would help prevent problems with this setup.
If I am in the mountains and I have an absolute shit anchor, my body becomes the primary belay and the "anchor" the secondary. I have never had such a vertical experience where this would be a problem; I'll be staying away from that sort of climbing.(its a matter of degrees though)
Still it bothers me that the dawg hasn't clairified his point, I hope he is in the mountains dealing with more important things. And if so I hope he is having a good time of it!

Quote:

the dawg can respond to your question if he chooses. i scrolled down and found the post in its entirety. the problem i have w/ the original post is the same problem i have had w/ these posts for a couple of years, the information is arguable correct, but it is not qualified or placed in context. in all but the most unusual cases, the sliding X is not an acceptable power point for an anchor. build a couple of hundred SRENE anchors on trad lead, then make the call your own call on the magic X.

on an absolute crap anchor, a sliding X could be the way to go....but only after it has be determined that retreat is not an option and other anchor locations do not exist. if the direction of pull on a leader fall changes during the pitch (say from a downward pull right of the anchor to a side pull after a piece is placed on a traverse), then a magic X could be arguably correct assuming extension limiters are used. almost all of these conditions can be avoided w/ a bit of planning.

i am not sure where the term "static equalized" came from. i have never heard of it. an anchor built off a sliding X is only equalized until a piece fails, then it is shock loaded.

stick w/ SRENE anchors.


Quote:

In an earlier thread you said this, "It would still be static equalized though like a simple 7mm cordelette. I am amazed at how many climbers: professionals, guides, manufactures and chabonis who know nothing or do not understand this saftey issue with anchors." Did you mean static equalization? Whatever you meant, can you explain just what it is that "isn't understood"?
I use a cordelette on three pieces with a masterpoint determined by a fig.8 on a bight(on the cord) almost whenever I am bringing up a second.
I am beginning to see what you (could) mean by that statement but I would like it if you could clairify and teach from it.
Thanks,
Chris

3:27 p.m. on November 29, 2002 (EST)
(Guest)

Re: Until he does . . .

I posted on the original thread, too, and while ID and I agree, I hope he will contribute his own thoughts.

What I think most people don't understand is that the amount of "self-equalization" (meaning the ability of a setup to re-equalize if the direction of the load changes) is also the amount of extension that would result should an anchor fail. You either get Equalized or you get Non-Extending. You can't have it both ways at full effect.

If you Fig-8 your cordelette, you will get only a small extension if an anchor fails (a little swing, maybe). But if the direction of the force changes, even a little, only one anchor will be loaded. The other two legs will have slack in them. (Maybe this is what is meant by static equalization-it can't react to direction change) This is easily seen with chain anchors. Basically, if the load direction changes, one anchor is then taking the whole load and the other two become backups. Then if the loaded anchor fails, the backups get "shock" loaded. OTOH, if you don't Fig-8 (and put in the required safety twists, I hope) your setup can adjust itself to a wide range of load directions and still balance the force among the anchors, but if one anchor pulls there will be a lot of extension.

There are equivocations all over. For example, the nicely equalized non-Fig-8 setup may not re-equalize if the direction of the force changes while the setup is loaded (with a pendulum fall, for example). In my experience, the degree to which this is a problem is highly variable and depends on the cordelette material (webbing or cord), how things hang, degree of loading, etc.

I would say that each time you set up an anchor this way you need to work out how much self-equalization the particular setup might need, how important maintaining good load balancing is, and how worried you are about an anchor pulling. This would be different for different trad anchors, different for snow, different for ice, etc. Your decision might be different for each of your three anchors, so you might tie one to allow only a little self-equalization in return for only a little extension, let a bomber anchor have lots of self-equalization, etc.

This need for flexibility is why (along with the practical reasons that the dawg brought up) I prefer to use a 7mm nylon cordelette.

Quote:

In an earlier thread you said this, "It would still be static equalized though like a simple 7mm cordelette. I am amazed at how many climbers: professionals, guides, manufactures and chabonis who know nothing or do not understand this saftey issue with anchors." Did you mean static equalization? Whatever you meant, can you explain just what it is that "isn't understood"?
I use a cordelette on three pieces with a masterpoint determined by a fig.8 on a bight(on the cord) almost whenever I am bringing up a second.
I am beginning to see what you (could) mean by that statement but I would like it if you could clairify and teach from it.
Thanks,
Chris

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