Tongue positioning question

Hello,

The tongue on my boot has a leather patch on it. Does this go over the vamp or below?

I have attached a picture for clarification.

Thank-you

Will

What kind of boots are they? I am leaning towards Asolo Powermatics(200 maybe) with the pulley system but I am not certain. The reason I am asking is so I can snag up some more pics to get a better gist of what I am looking at.

If they are the Powermatics the patch should just lie as any boot tongue normally would. Its purpose is just to cut down on the abrasion on the tongue caused by the laces. 

They are the powermatics.

The next concern is that the big toe knuckle on both sides ache after wearing the boots for a few hours. What could this be due to and how would one remedy this?

Thanks,

Will

Hey ZeeWill, first thing before I forget. Welcome to Trailspace.

Ok, now onto the boots. Can ya give me a little history on the boots? Where ya got them, how they fit elsewhere, etc. Just a general idea of what we are looking at over all. 

below

Thank-you for the welcome Rick :)

I got them at MEC in june. Being wearing them for a month straight after in order break them in. Still wearing them 3 to 4 times a week and I have taken them on a few day hikes (I didn't want to do anything to strenuous in them yet).

In terms of fit, when unlaced, and I push my foot all the way to the front, I can fit about one finger between the back and my heel. When tied up, my foot has no slip inside the boot. Everything else feels great except for that one point on the knuckle of the big toe. When they are completely tied up, it seems that the first lace anchor on the inner side is pulled down.

How do they feel when you loosen the laces at the first set of d-rings? From what I am getting so far the interior volume in the toebox may need to be stretched. 

Do you have wiggle room as far as your toes go? If it is the lace anchor have you tried to loosen the tension a bit in this area?

Just trying to eliminate possible solutions.

I have tried to eliminate the tension many ways. Even going as far as not having the laces go in that area. I just tried for a bit with the tongue padding above (as not recommended), and that seems to have alleviated the problem, even with laces going to the first set of d-rings.

It could be that with the padding, I don't quite have the room, and it does need to be stretched as you suggested.

I do have wiggle room, except for the first section of the big toe, which cannot move. But the last section of it (the one with the nail) can.

I am leaning towards the toe boxes need stretched. I would consider contacting a fitter and having this done. I am pretty sure this would do the trick for ya. 

Over time during the break-in process boots will mold to your feet. At the same time the padding will mold as well. If the pain is that bad definitely go to a fitter. They will know how to best address this. 

Quick question, do you experience toe bang in the front of your boot?

I had the 500s. Monster of a boot. The last just didn't work for my feet. 

No toe bang :D

Thank-you for the great help. One thing I just remembered: The toe knuckle had no pain initially, it came after wearing them for a month and a half. Could that mean anything?

Those 500s look like they could survive almost anything.

How did the last not work? Not something that could be stretched?

My foot is too wide. Different manufacturers use different lasts.

The last is a form that simulates the human foot and the boot is built around that. Manufacturers use different lasts for their models. Asolos tend to run somewhat narrow. At least when it comes to my flippers they do. 

I ended up going with a different manufacturer(Scarpa.)

In your case if the only problem you are encountering is the toe knuckle issue I would think having the boot stretched would take care of this being it would increase the interior volume in the footbox of your boot. The leather on that boot is pretty burly so I have no doubt it could handle it.

I am not sure if you know this or not but as you go through the course of the day your feet swell. Its good to try on footwear at night after you have been on your feet all day just to compensate for any swelling ya may have.

You could have a boot fit great in the morning and after hours on the trail your feet will be a disaster because your boots feel like they have your feet in a strangle hold due to the swelling. 

Also try the boot on with an aftermarket insole(if ya use them) and the socks ya use on the trail. This can alter the fit as well.

The fact that they hurt a month and a half later makes me lean more towards having them stretched. Being the leather is probably softer and more pliable now as opposed to when you originally purchased them makes me believe ya just need a little volume in the toe box area and you should be fine.

The 500s are monsters. Asolo makes a great boot if they fit your foot. 

Glad I could be of help to ya. If ya have any more questions please do not hesitate to fire them out on the boards. 

There are many very knowledgeable members here at Trailspace that are more than willing to help out if ya need it or at least guide ya in the right direction.

Once again, welcome to Trailspace, glad to have ya aboard ZeeWill. 

Thank-you very much for the useful information :) I'm glad I found this forum. It will definitely be a great way not to work :)

Hello, Mr. ZeeWill ~~

Glad to have you as a contributing member on the forums.

Robert, here.   The resident curmudgeon.

I'm NOT an expert at ANYTHING.   But, I do know SOMETHING.   Near as I can tell, I've probably been at this hiking, backpacking and camping thing longer than any other member.

I've experienced a similar problem  to yours, with a few pairs of boots over the years.

If you have access to a cobbler experienced with fine leather hiking boots, by-all-means, make a visit to him / her.

I live one-block from a cobbler.  However; I seldom go to him for anything major, like re-sole'ing.

I do not like the chemical used on the leather when a cobbler stretches the boot in the problem area.   I can't recall what that chemical compound is, but it -- like any chemical -- has residual effects.   In this case -- "out-gassing".   In-other-words, well after the stretching work is performed, the chemical compound that was used to alter the molecular structure of the leather, to allow it to be stretched ... remains.   Over a period of time, the chemical will gradually release (in the form of vapor) and break-down until it dissipates.

Guess what?   Your foot is in there, and is exposed to the chemicals.   Risky business.

Here's what I do:  (And by-the-way, no matter what  anyone here on this forum says, there will always be someone that does not agree.  That's OK.   Two sides to every story.). --

I would take off the laces.   Then, get yourself some small ZipLock bags.   Heavy-duty is best.   Not the 'snack' size.  Too small.   Fill ALMOST full with water.   Leave about 10% void.   Now, double-bag that.   Carefully, insert this double water-bag into the toe-box area of the boot(s).   Put it in the freezer, and leave it in there for a couple days.

Upon removing the boot(s) from the freezer, allow room temperature to melt the ice, until you can remove the ZipLock bags.

The boot will be stretched in the area that was giving you the problem.

This method may be controversial for some.   Bottom line:  it works.   Cost?   Nothing.

Have a nice day.

                                                     ~r2~

Robert Rowe Said:
 "Here's what I do:  (And by-the-way, no matter what  anyone here on this forum says, there will always be someone that does not agree.  That's OK.   Two sides to every story.). --

I would take off the laces.   Then, get yourself some small ZipLock bags.   Heavy-duty is best.   Not the 'snack' size.  Too small.   Fill ALMOST full with water.   Leave about 10% void.   Now, double-bag that.   Carefully, insert this double water-bag into the toe-box area of the boot(s).   Put it in the freezer, and leave it in there for a couple days.

Upon removing the boot(s) from the freezer, allow room temperature to melt the ice, until you can remove the ZipLock bags.

The boot will be stretched in the area that was giving you the problem.

This method may be controversial for some.   Bottom line:  it works.   Cost?   Nothing.

Have a nice day."

Hey Robert,

Did you think that one up your self?  Whether you thought it up or not it's absolutely brilliant.    I'm still thinking of streaching the Pivetta 8's I have, as they are uniformly to thin from the toe thu the ball  up passed the arch to the begining of the heal.  The heal area is just perfect.  As I have two large chest freezers  this will be easy for me to try.  Since no one could use them all I have into the boots is $50 so I'm thinking about the taking the plung and trying this.  The nice thing is as if the leather streatches to much I can wet them again and and shrink them a bit.  Man I love leather.  I miss having full grain leather  "old school"  hiking boots as my daily shoe and I'm so tired of wearing out shoes.

Yeah, Brian, I did.

It first occurred to me many years ago, when I put a Sigg aluminum bottle filled ( too much water )  in the freezer, intending to remove it in an hour.   I forgot about it.   Too late.   It split from the expanding ice formation.

That's what got me thinking about a possible application  of the freezing-water, with a pair of FGL boots that were giving me fitment problems.

It worked for me.   Hope it does for you.

                                                    ~r2~

I like it!  I will try it tonight:)

Robert Rowe said:

Near as I can tell, I've probably been at this hiking, backpacking and camping thing longer than any other member.

 Hmm, I am pretty sure that one goes to Bill. Pretty sure Ed, JimS, Tipi, and several others would follow closely for runner up of that title as well. 

Robert Rowe Said:
"Here's what I do:  (And by-the-way, no matter what  anyone here on this forum says, there will always be someone that does not agree.  That's OK.   Two sides to every story.). --

I would take off the laces.   Then, get yourself some small ZipLock bags.   Heavy-duty is best.   Not the 'snack' size.  Too small.   Fill ALMOST full with water.   Leave about 10% void.   Now, double-bag that.   Carefully, insert this double water-bag into the toe-box area of the boot(s).   Put it in the freezer, and leave it in there for a couple days.

Upon removing the boot(s) from the freezer, allow room temperature to melt the ice, until you can remove the ZipLock bags.

The boot will be stretched in the area that was giving you the problem.

This method may be controversial for some.   Bottom line:  it works.   Cost?   Nothing.

Have a nice day."

So, last night I was getting ready to try and use Roberts freezing water in the boots trick to expand my Pivetta 8's when I took a really, really close look at my them.  I have these wooden shoe expanders I was messing around with them as they can be used in different widths to streach shoes/boots a little bit but not near what it would take to fite the 8's to the width I need.  While trying to incert the stretchers into one of the boots I noticed that the toes were very, very solid, not unlike metal toed boots.  Upon further examination I discoverd what seems to be an internal plastic toe cap.  I've decided that with a plastic toe cap streatching by freezing may crack, deform, or warp the plastic toe cap giving it a chance to rip/cut the leather.  Along those lines if it does not expand uniformly  it could be really uncomfortable to the toes.  I still think Roberts boot streatching idea will work and I will by a couple of pair of boots at the Goodwill for more expermintation with this method of stretching boots.  I would however check all boots for a internal toe cap of any kind before proceeding.  It may be that I can use slow low heat to expand the plastic toe cap with the use of my wood shoe expanders.  One the other hand it would be sad if I wrecked a like new pair of Pivetta 8's just to experiment on boot streaching.  It could be that these boots are to be regulated to my ever expaning collection of fine outdoor backing packing gear and will be in the boot wing of my future tent museum.

While this idea may very well work its going to be pretty hard to stretch the footwear as precisely as a fitter would. I personally wouldn't advise "testing this method" on a pair of $200+ boots. 

Very interesting. I will try it on an old pair of boots this weekend and report back.

gonzan said:

Robert Rowe said:

Near as I can tell, I've probably been at this hiking, backpacking and camping thing longer than any other member.

 Hmm, I am pretty sure that one goes to Bill. Pretty sure Ed, JimS, Tipi, and several others would follow closely for runner up of that title as well. 

  Nope.

I'm pretty sure about this.   I have a BIG anniversary coming up.   Watch this site for details.

                                                  ~r2~

Rick said:

While this idea may very well work its going to be pretty hard to stretch the footwear as precisely as a fitter would. I personally wouldn't advise "testing this method" on a pair of $200+ boots. 

I've got about $40 into the Hi-Tec that's in the freezer as of last night.  It did not have a plastic toe cap.  I'll let you know in a couple of days.

Sounds good. I am curious as to how well this method would work.

I believe it will work to some extent but at the same time it will also have its limitations as to how much it will stretch the footwear not too mention if it will be more of a problem than a beneficial way of stretching the footwear in the aspect of precision(key areas of discomfort.)

I would think that it would be kinda hard to pinpoint areas that one would want to address. I suppose for stretching a toebox one could shove the bag of water into this area and stuff towels behind the bag to keep it in place. 

Hmmmm...

@ Rick-Pittsburgh :

You make valid points there.  However I'm looking at using this method to use it for shoes/boots that are unifomly to thin for my feet.  In this case the boots I wanted to do this with are to thin form the toe area thru to the back of the arch.  I will be going to Goodwill to get some boots/shoes that are again to thin for my feet rather than taking care of "certain points of discomfort".  I will  be trying it with ziplock baggies as well as balloons.  If one had just a problem with say the ball of the foot being to thin and the rest of the boot being fine, then shove a towel in the toe box.............. incert a balloon/bag and fill to the right amount of volume and then put in another towel rag to hold in place.  If one has a cheapy pair of boots/shoes this would maybe be the answer to the expensive costs that cobblers/bootstreatchers charge.  Even with my Pivettas, apparentlly they are not even worth $50 as I could not sell them.  I will however try them on some $3 boots and shoes before tearing into a nice pair of boots.

@Guyz:  It is my thought that you do not need to wait a couple of day's.  Once water freezes it has expaned to it's highest state of expansion.  Once you have reach the frozen state usually with in 12-24hrs and the Ice is solid that is all it will expand.  A colder freezer just makes for colder ice, not larger ice.

Robert Rowe said:

I would take off the laces.   Then, get yourself some small ZipLock bags.   Heavy-duty is best.   Not the 'snack' size.  Too small.   Fill ALMOST full with water.   Leave about 10% void.   Now, double-bag that.   Carefully, insert this double water-bag into the toe-box area of the boot(s).   Put it in the freezer, and leave it in there for a couple days.

Upon removing the boot(s) from the freezer, allow room temperature to melt the ice, until you can remove the ZipLock bags.

The boot will be stretched in the area that was giving you the problem.

This method may be controversial for some.   Bottom line:  it works.   Cost?   Nothing.

Have a nice day.

                                                     ~r2~

Hmm, interesting theory.  In the old days, in winter, stone cutters would drill holes in rock, fill them with water, them pack the hole with a wooden plug, and stone dust. The expanding frozen water would fissure the rock, eliminating much of the need for large cutting tools.

The only problem I foresee with using this method on a pair of boots, is that Water, when frozen, only expands in volume by 8 1/3%.  As the water expands it may simply work it's way into the open void, taking the shape of the boot rather than forcing the boot-toe to expand. I hypothesize that, like the stone cutters, in order to expand the toe box, one would need to pack something else into the rest of the boot to prevent ice expansion into unwanted areas of the boot.

Apeman said:

@Guyz:  It is my thought that you do not need to wait a couple of day's.  Once water freezes it has expaned to it's highest state of expansion.  Once you have reach the frozen state usually with in 12-24hrs and the Ice is solid that is all it will expand.  A colder freezer just makes for colder ice, not larger ice.

Thanks Apeman, I'll pull them out tonight.

Forgot to mention ....

To isolate ( pun, here ) the area, such as the toe-box in my case, I stuffed a small towel remnant into the rest of the boot, to keep the ZipLocs right where I wanted to stretch the leather.

This is important.   Sorry to have neglected to mention ....

                                                       ~r2~

I forgot to pack the water plug with a rag or short towel, but I had stood the boot up on its toe in the freezer and gravity seemed to help.  It did stretch the toe box nicely.  My right foot is slightly wider than my left and this did make the right boot fit well.  (I tested it with a quick 3 mile walk with a 60# training pack.)  

This might have solved my fit problem if I did not need bunion surgery that I am delaying till after next summer's trip to Philmont Scout Ranch.  So for a temporary delay tactic, I'm still off to the cobbler for a pinpoint bunion stretch.  Though I'm sure this will work for my next purchase if the boot width is off by as much as usual.  

Thanks ~r2~

You are welcome !

Ironically, I am now using this process for one of my pairs (have 3) of Fabiano FGLs.   They always fit just about right, but a little snug with thicker socks, as with Winter hiking.

If I gain a millimeter or two in width, I'll be in "Fat City".

                                                  ~r2~

behind your teeth

Callahan said:

behind your teeth

 Tied or untied?

Ed

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