backpack question

I was wondering if anyone has an opinion on R.E.I as a supplier of gear and if anyone has a Mars 85'08 backpack, do you like it? Please share. Thanks.

I have been a member since 1975 and the gear I have bought from REI has been just fine. Sure, it may not be the "cutting edge" and a few small makers DO produce the "best", however, for recreational backpacking, REI stuff works very well, as does MEC gear.

Thanks for the info! I have never dealt with REI but am a member of MEC and pleased with most of their equipment as well as how they stand behind their products, however we can't seem to find a backpack there that is what we are looking for. I am in Canada and am iffy about ordering on line without being able to try something on for fit but we may have to bite the bullet. My backpack is a Cerrotorre (Gecko 65 litre) which I can't seem to find anymore anywhere, it is awesome and extremely comfortable for me. The Mars 85 looks like and has most of the same features as this pack so really want to give it a try. It is good to know REI is a reputable company with good gear, thanks again for your reply.

Are you in/around Vancouver, there are a number of options I can advise you on if I know your locale. One option is the Arcteryx factory store for "seconds" that are perfectly functional and another is being fitted by someone who actually KNOWS what they are doing, I have a suggestion here, as well.

Log onto Backpacker or TLB and PM me and I can probably help you to find what you need. I live in Vancouver due to my wife's career, but, have some info. on options in other areas, as well. Wish there was a PM function here, but, since there is not, this is the best option.

I live in Halifax, Nova Scotia and have been to every supplier of backpacks going here. The pack is actually for my partner and we were hoping to get one the same make as mine since he has used mine and also found it extremely comfortable. We have tried Osprey, Gregory and one supplier carries Arcteryx but he seemed to find that neither was comfy right from the start before weight was even added. I will try to contact you from the info you provided. What is TLB? Thanks again for taking the time to reply!

Hi Kutenay,

Having trouble with backpacker, if you want to try me at ClubTread please do!

OK, didn't know about this forum, joined and just waiting for them to OK me, will PM you with info. there when that happens.TLB is another forum, can't remember the URL, TomD, please assist.

The Lightweight Backpacker

http://www.backpacking.net is the Lightweight Backpacking site - TLB

I also belong to Club Tread
http://www.clubtread.com

As far as REI goes, they have been around for a long time as Kutenay says. They are based in Seattle, have stores in many different states as you can see from their website and one great thing about them is that they will take back almost anything they sell without any questions.

The closest REI stores to you look like they are in Massachusetts. The biggest store is probably Boston, but that is just a guess.

Wilderness Gal,

I know whereof you speak -- selection is limited in the Maritimes. If you were to take the CAT from Yarmouth down to Portland you would find an EMS store ( http://www.ems.com ) and LL Beans not far away ( http://www.llbean.com ). Eastern Mountain Sports is similar to REI in their return policy (virtually unlimited - no questions asked - even after years of use) and good customer service. They carry Osprey, Gregory, Mountain Hardwear, Golite, Kelty, North Face, Granite Gear, and their own line of packs. I have dragged EMS packs around the world, through many airport baggage handlers, with never a blown seam.

Wilderness Gal,

Did you get over to TAO? I notice they carry Vaude, Tatonka, and Asolo backpacks. I have never seen these European brands, are they interesting/innovative?

Thanks to all for your replies, it is greatly appreciated! Yes, we were at TAO, it is where we bought the Asolo Explorer 70 Litre. It was used on two long trips, packed every different possible way and let me say it is the pack from you know where! We both tried it, very uncomfortable. I am finding the packs with the longer more tubular body instead of the shorter wider packs seems to be more comfortable for us! The Mars 85 seems to fit this type, we may have to go there but am going to have a boo at EMS and see what's to offer. Thanks again everyone!

I don't know what your budget is and so I can only suggest on the basis of what you have posted here. The Gregory Palisade is one that might well work, the Arcteryx Bora 80 or 95 is another.

If, you are a committed, serious backpacker and have any truely serious fitting issues, then you would be well advised to contact Dan McHale and get a custom pack from him.

I appreciate that many wish to save money and buy the less costly packs and other gear. However, where your boots and pack are concerned, I think that the best you can buy, fit considered of course, is the most frugal and wisest choice, over the long term.

I am not familiar with eastern Canadian gear outlets, so, cannot really give much help. I tend to use Mystery Ranch packs more than anything else, but, their larger models seem a bit more than you might want....take a look at the "Glacier" which is a larger version of my Deluxe that I always carry my emerg. camp in while day-hiking here around Vancouver.

These are superb packs and they have a rocksolid return and warrantee policy.

Hey kutenay,

Thanks a bunch for the advice and info. Comfort and durability are of the biggest concerns rather than price, to a certain degree! I don't have the money tree in the back yard, not yet anyway. LOL Will take a look at what you have suggested!

Wilderness Gal,

Kutenay is certainly right, fit beats price in packs and boots. The quality of materials is pretty consistent these days; the design and workmanship vary considerably, but if you buy from a good name you will have a good warranty.

If you go to a shop where the people know their product, they will try their best to "modify" the pack for optimum fit. Some of the Internal Frame packs have stays that can be bent to conform to your back; the position of the straps can be altered; the hip belt can be switched out with another that works better; and the rise straps can be adjusted. A good fitter can completely transform the feeling of a pack, in my opinion. Of course, you still can't "make a silk purse from a sow's ear."

You might want to be sure that your partner is wearing his hiking boots when he is trying on packs. The slight difference in posture can make a big difference in feel.

P.S. - I believe the money tree grows down near Privateer's Wharf.

I think one problem in my neck of the woods is lack of people with the experience who can properly fit a pack. I don't mean to dump on those who work the outfitting stores but most here are students trying to make a buck to get through school, the companies can hire them cheaply for part time help and don't have to pay benefits. I wish we had a "good fitter" as mentioned by overmywaders that would do all of his mentioned things to get a fella the perfect fit!

Wilderness Gal,

I've found a couple sites which go into detail on pack fitting. See http://www.trailstobuild.com/Articles/Backpack_fitting_guide.htm where they mention the absolute importance of bending the stays - " THIS IS THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT ADJUSTMENT TO ACHIEVE A COMFORTABLE FIT. FINE TUNING OF THE OTHER ADJUSTMENTS IS FUTILE UNTIL THIS STEP IS PERFORMED CORRECTLY.

A rudimentary curve is given to the stays at the factory. In practice, this curve does not fit many people well. The reason for this is that the curve of the frame stays must conform exactly to the person's back to achieve a good fit and every back is slightly different."

Also, from the New York Times -- "The biggest difference in design philosophy comes in suspension design, the foundation of a modern internal frame. Wayne Gregory pioneered the idea of using two thin stays of aluminum alloy that stretch from the shoulder straps to the waistband. By custom- bending the stays to the user's back he was able to get a more comfortable fit and a superior ride. "I'm the guy who started the madness of bending frames," said Mr. Gregory.

But four years ago, while he was on a long backpacking trip on the John Muir Trail in the Sierra Nevada, Mr. Gregory was alarmed to notice that most of his packs had not been fitted correctly in the stores. As a result, he has modified his design approach. He now uses a carbon fiber stay instead of aluminum alloy and after measuring more than 100 backs has come up with a standard design that he says works for most hikers.

Mr. Gleason of Dana and Mr. Scherer of Kelty disagree with this approach, and they still require that their packs be custom-fitted for each user."

See http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D0CEFD61430F936A35756C0A967958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

In the 30+ years that I have bought packs from Dana Gleason, I have NEVER heard of his requiring the user to have the pack "custom-fitted for each user". Actually, Dana's designs are deliberately engineered to do exactly the opposite, as his website makes clear.

The use of aluminum stays in backpacks goes back to before Wayne Gregory, who is about my age, was watching Annette Funicello on freakin'Mickey Mouse and dreaming about being a "mountain man". The immortal Gerry Cunningham was doing this when the backpacking hobby was in it's infancy and Europeans were doing it years before that.

The Gregory Denali Pro that I had from March, 2003 to July, 2006, had ALUMINUM stays and the carbon fiber ones were a short-term experiment, discontinued, IIRC, after a short period, due to various problems. BillS probably can elaborate on this.

The single most difficult and necessary aspect of pack fitting is to get the waistbelt right, if this works, doing the stays is easy. I can and have carried major weight in various highend internals with the stays in different shapes, but, a minor misfitting in the waistbelt is torture after about a mile.

MOST of the major pack makers, the really top guys do not allow for personal stay bending and for damm good reason. The only two I can think of at present that have designs that allow the client to bend me, shape me, any way you want me the back stays, are Bill Ostrom of Ostrom Packs in Ontario and Patrick Smith of Kifaru. I had two Kifaru packs, still have a fully-tricked Siwash and prefer this done at the factory as it is not easy to get them exactly equal at home.

WG, maybe go to www.ostrompacks.com, this might be another option for you and I will try to send you some further info. via PM on Clubtread, that I prefer not to post here.This will be later today.

That's a funny article as internal frame packs were well under way long before Gregory and Gleason came onto the scene. From a pack fit standpoint, I've found that getting the hip belt and shoulder straps right to be of more value than bending stays. I used to have the shoulder straps positioned too high - a holdover from the external frame pack days.

Thanks so much for the fitting guide, it is the most complete I have come across yet. I was very lucky to have found my almost perfect pack in my second one. The first was to short in the torso for me and not adjustable, an inexperienced fitter sold me that one. I was on a hiking trip, having discomfort and there just happen to be a guide taking another group in who noticed my discomfort, he was able to tell me my problem. I went immediately when I got back to a different outfitter and bingo got the perfect pack for me. I have arthritis in my spine but that guide I met on the trip told me that I could probably hike perfectly fine without a lot of difficulty if my pack fit me properly and for me that meant carrying most of the weight on my hips. I am 6 feet tall and have a long torso and found the womens packs didn't fit quite right. I was so glad he was in the woods the same weekend I was! The pack I got had a life time warranty (supposingly) and fit me wonderfully with one exception. I am very boney around the collar bone and have quite large bone protrusions, the straps do irritate the bones after hiking for a couple days. I am in the process of making some extra padding to go in those areas. The company that made my pack is no longer making them so I guess my warranty is no longer valid, I'll have to baby it some and hope it lasts me the rest of my hiking career! LOL. Thanks again to everyone for your replies and help. Look forward to getting your info kutenay.

kutenay is right that bendable stays were in use long before Gregory used them. Internal frame packs also go way back. The old Bergans pack used for the Scandinavian military before WWII was a semi-internal (same thing has been called "internal" by more recent manufacturers). Its frame was steel, and hence pretty heavy (though less than a number of packs in the last 30-40 years that were "light" internals). We still have a couple of packs from the 1960s that use aluminum stays. They weren't called "internal frame", but the construction is very close to many current packs that are called that.

And in some sense, packs going back at least to the Mountain Man era (late 18th-early 19th Centuries) are what would now be called "internal frame". Not much new in packs, mostly variations on a couple of themes. (yeah, yeah, some of the materials are new). The idea of proper fit is one of those themes that goes back for centuries, but keeps getting forgotten and rediscovered.

I think what was referred to as Dana "requiring custom fitting" is actually his practice of making the packs with several basic frame sizes and adjustable within those frame sizes. He does want the shops selling his packs to spend time with the customers to make sure the pack gets adjusted correctly and that the owner will know how to do the adjustments in the field, something every manufacturer should do, but usually neglects. His packs come with a booklet that describes the adjustment procedure, which is easy to learn with the help of a good packfitter. Dick Kelty had such a booklet with his original external frame packs (I still have a copy) from my 1960 Kelty Backpacker, which I also still have and occasionally use). I suppose you could call the adjustment of waist belt, shoulder straps, etc. "custom fitting" if you want, since you should make sure all the straps are properly tightened to position the pack correctly. And in the case of some internals, picking the correct size of frame sheet is "custom". But in reality, this isn't "custom" in terms of making the pack based on complete measurements of your body. Besides, the straps would still have to be adjusted according to load, terrain, and all the other variables, if it is to be comfortable.

P.S. Overmywaders,

I can't seem to find that tree, I need the exact location! LOL

Wilderness Gal,

You will get varying opinions on any forum. I have found bending stays to be very helpful for getting the perfect fit. So have:
http://www.nwbackpack.com/blog/tips-how-tos/how-to-adjust-a-backpack-for-hiking/
and
http://209.85.215.104/search?q=cache:6y4STWXgr3kJ:www.bsat10.com/Backpacking/How%2520to%2520Fit%2520a%2520Backpack.doc+bending+stays+on+backpack&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=11&gl=us
and
http://www.t255.com/041128_REI_%20How%20to%20Fit%20a%20Backpack.pdf
and
http://www.alaskamountaineering.com/Equipment/BackPacks/Choosing%20a%20Pa.htm
and
http://www.esc-outdoor.co.uk/faq.htm
and
http://www.spadout.com/w/backpack/
and
http://www.artoftravel.com/14backpacks.htm

There are 145,000 results returned when googling "bending stays on backpacks" (sans quotes). I have provided a selection.

Just think about it from the standpoint of physics - your spine is curved to cushion the load of your body as you walk. Straight or "average" curvature of the aluminum stays would not be as effective in this cushioning as following the curve of your spine.

However, I hope enjoy the different views and continue your independent investigation of truth.

Hi Overmywaders,

Thanks for the info. I am very much enjoying the different views. I take all this experience and advice from people and learn lots from it. I love that the opinions are individual and different. Thanks a million to all who shared their experience!