Hilleberg?

12:24 p.m. on July 15, 2011 (EDT)
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Been doing some extensive research on my new 4 season tent.  I think I now need LASIK for all the reading I have done.  Seems like for the price I'm looking to spend and for the quality I'm looking to get, everyone/everything is pointing me towards the Hilleberg brand.  For starters I live in NJ so I have zero idea where any local shop even has one in stock to set up and play around in.  As far as which tent, I've boiled it down to the Jannu and the Tarra.  Does anyone out here own either one of these two and could possibly give me some feedback.  The Jannu I believe is lighter but I think only has 1 vestibule.  I received the catalogue Hilleberg sent me and the sample of fabrics is really cool.  I can tell I'm not purchasing another "made in China" brand.  Thanks for your help.

9:03 p.m. on July 15, 2011 (EDT)
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I am gonna be blunt here. With the $$$ you are willing to spend go with a Hille if you truly want a bomber 4 season tent. I am contemplating buying one now. I had an Akto which is their "cheapest" tent and it smokes anything else on the market as far as solo 4 season tents go imo. The fabric, quality, and craftsmanship can't be beat. If it can I haven't seen it.

It would be money well spent and will last you a very very long time.

9:25 p.m. on July 15, 2011 (EDT)
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Someday, when I have the money to invest in a four season tent, it will definitely be a Hille. Hand down. I have not seen anything that compares in terms of quality and design.

Three season I have a tent that does the trick for now. I also use a tarp and bivy if i am solo. In the future I will probably get a lighter three season. For that there are a bunch of good options. But for a true four season I think you've got it nailed with a Hilleberg.

9:34 p.m. on July 15, 2011 (EDT)
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skibum12 said:

Been doing some extensive research on my new 4 season tent.  I think I now need LASIK for all the reading I have done.  Seems like for the price I'm looking to spend and for the quality I'm looking to get, everyone/everything is pointing me towards the Hilleberg brand.  For starters I live in NJ so I have zero idea where any local shop even has one in stock to set up and play around in.  As far as which tent, I've boiled it down to the Jannu and the Tarra.  Does anyone out here own either one of these two and could possibly give me some feedback.  The Jannu I believe is lighter but I think only has 1 vestibule.  I received the catalogue Hilleberg sent me and the sample of fabrics is really cool.  I can tell I'm not purchasing another "made in China" brand.  Thanks for your help.

 Scott ~

Campmor no got ??

If they don't, I think the guy(s) on the floor in the tent dept. will still give you the 'skinny' on 'em.

I've found they REALLY know their stuff in that place.  No 'strokers'.

___________________________________________________

                                                  ~r2~

9:51 p.m. on July 15, 2011 (EDT)
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I had a lot of problems with the Akto in heavy snow fall.  The ends would flatten and my face would be bunched up against the fabric.  It is an excellent poor weather shelter for sure but I would question it's 4 season rating.  That would depend on what that 4th season is to the user.

I have a Soulo that is heavier but is substantially more robust as a 4 season snow shelter.  Guyed and pegged down, it doesn't move in the wind and I have had 2 feet of wet snow on it without issue.  Amazing.

Hillebergs are worth every dollar.  And cent.

10:08 p.m. on July 15, 2011 (EDT)
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CWF said:

I had a lot of problems with the Akto in heavy snow fall.  The ends would flatten and my face would be bunched up against the fabric.  It is an excellent poor weather shelter for sure but I would question it's 4 season rating.  That would depend on what that 4th season is to the user.

I have a Soulo that is heavier but is substantially more robust as a 4 season snow shelter.  Guyed and pegged down, it doesn't move in the wind and I have had 2 feet of wet snow on it without issue.  Amazing.

Hillebergs are worth every dollar.  And cent.

 Upgrade to a .433 pole. This helps a bit. Must have been alot of wet snow. If that was the case a dome would definitely be a better option(Soulo, etc.)

10:29 p.m. on July 15, 2011 (EDT)
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I'll check with the guys at Campmor.  I know, they're really good.  They built my mtbbike from the ground up.  Thanks.

10:37 p.m. on July 15, 2011 (EDT)
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I like campmor. They can always get my business.

10:41 p.m. on July 15, 2011 (EDT)
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Hillebergs have a lot going for them, namely:

**  The best floors on the market(1800 Kerlon models)---100 denier, triple urethane coated.  I've been in many a rainstorm with pooling ground water (i.e. the lake effect) and have never had a drop of water come in from the floor.  Good on wet snow too.

**  They do not have the flame retardant stink so common in other tents.

**  Quick set up with integrated fly makes for a dry tent during rainstorm setup.

**  Great beefy 10mm tent poles and well-thought out zippers and all the rest.  I like the golden yellow canopies and both the green or the red flys.

But they are not perfect, and here are some thoughts:

**  The elastic inner connectors are weak points for the Hillebergs as over time the elastic stretches permanently and causes the inner tent to sag and get slightly smaller.

**  Many Hillebergs have the nagging tendency to be too short whereby the foot of the nice down bag touches the wet condensated inners, especially when you are perched up high on a thick Thermarest or 3.5 inch Exped downmat.  This is most noticeable with the Akto, Nallo, Nammatj and Staika.  The Keron is my favorite as it has vertical end walls fore and aft.

**  Condensation is a bit more of a problem due to their full length flys which hug the ground all around---even though they have fancy venting systems.

**  In stiff blows the Hillebergs tend to shake, slap, and deform more than other tents with their inners supported by poles with the fly thrown over.  This can take time getting used to.

All I used for years was the Staika 3-pole wedge/dome but my favorite is the Keron 3 as it is huge inside (36 sq feet) and sets up fast and is a real joy to stay in during hellish blizzards or torrential rainstorms, even though its footprint is pretty long.  But there are other brands out there that are lighter, longer, and give you the option of having two tents, an unflyed one on nice nights and a flyed one during rain (the usual double walls). 

For my last two trips I've been using an MSR tent called the Fury which is apparently bombproof, waterproof, and easy to set up.  I like it---read my review here on Trailspace.  But I miss carrying my Hilleberg and may at any time return to it.

4:13 p.m. on July 16, 2011 (EDT)
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I just bought a soulo for my trips. Its 44 inches wide, which from some manufactors would be called 2, Hille calls it a 1 person. Perfect size for me and my two 100 lbs dogs. The thing is bomb proof, I'm sure you did the test with the sample fabrics they sent you. Look around online for a used one, because these things are so well made a used one will still last a lifetime. I got mine used (although there wasnt a spot of dust, dirt, sand, anything on it, not sure where the previous owner set it up) for $300 shipped to me. Normally retails for $525 plus the 40 to ship to Canada. That is of course once you've decided which model works best for you!

5:51 p.m. on July 16, 2011 (EDT)
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CWF said:

I had a lot of problems with the Akto in heavy snow fall.  The ends would flatten and my face would be bunched up against the fabric.  It is an excellent poor weather shelter for sure but I would question it's 4 season rating.  That would depend on what that 4th season is to the user.

I have a Soulo that is heavier but is substantially more robust as a 4 season snow shelter.  Guyed and pegged down, it doesn't move in the wind and I have had 2 feet of wet snow on it without issue.  Amazing.

Hillebergs are worth every dollar.  And cent.

 I totally agree and I have had two Soulos, still have one and a Saivo, simply THE best tent I have ever had or expect to have. Hilles have some issues as Skiman points out and every item of gear does/will, but, for use in severe weather of the kind regularly encountered here in Canada, nothing else comes close.

I would like to have a few more and would if I were younger and had more time to use them. I like ID singlewall tents for some uses and have three, but, for an "all-around" tent that will survive anything, Hille is my choice. I deal with the issues of stretch, etc, by using more tie-outs of fine, strong cord and this tends to aleviate the wind deformation of polesets, as well.

MSR make VERY fine tents and anything Skiman has to say on such issues as well as when Tipiwalter and BillS. give opinions is well worth reading and thinking about when choosing a tent.

9:41 p.m. on July 16, 2011 (EDT)
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Jake W said:

I just bought a soulo for my trips. Its 44 inches wide, which from some manufactors would be called 2, Hille calls it a 1 person. Perfect size for me and my two 100 lbs dogs. The thing is bomb proof, I'm sure you did the test with the sample fabrics they sent you. Look around online for a used one, because these things are so well made a used one will still last a lifetime. I got mine used (although there wasnt a spot of dust, dirt, sand, anything on it, not sure where the previous owner set it up) for $300 shipped to me. Normally retails for $525 plus the 40 to ship to Canada. That is of course once you've decided which model works best for you!

 Jake - the Soulo is actually 42" wide only in the middle.  It is 27" wide at each end.  There is no way to fit two people into that comfortably. 

10:17 p.m. on July 16, 2011 (EDT)
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CWF- My mistake, you are correct, I went back and forth much like skibum before finally deciding on the UNNA, not the soulo. The unna is 44 inches wide for clarification. Looking at tents for so long they begin to mix together in your head. In the end it came down to those two tents which is why i mixed them up.

10:40 p.m. on July 16, 2011 (EDT)
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Yes!  The Unna is huge for a 1 person tent and you are correct - will fit two people.

10:44 p.m. on July 17, 2011 (EDT)
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I own the Unna and used it on an overnighter this weekend. A palace for one person. If I used it for two, I'd only share it with my wife!

10:48 p.m. on July 17, 2011 (EDT)
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Been doing some extensive research on my new 4 season tent.  I think I now need LASIK for all the reading I have done.  Seems like for the price I'm looking to spend and for the quality I'm looking to get, everyone/everything is pointing me towards the Hilleberg brand.  For starters I live in NJ so I have zero idea where any local shop even has one in stock to set up and play around in.  As far as which tent, I've boiled it down to the Jannu and the Tarra.  Does anyone out here own either one of these two and could possibly give me some feedback.  The Jannu I believe is lighter but I think only has 1 vestibule.  I received the catalogue Hilleberg sent me and the sample of fabrics is really cool.  I can tell I'm not purchasing another "made in China" brand.  Thanks for your help.

 

What kind of conditions are you planning on using these models in? These are serious bomber models and are overkill for all but extreme conditions. I have owned both models and sold them because they are quite specific in their uses, I.e., mountaineering conditions.

Disclaimer: I AM AN AUTHORIZED HILLEBERG RETAILER.

11:16 p.m. on July 17, 2011 (EDT)
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Been doing some extensive research on my new 4 season tent.  I think I now need LASIK for all the reading I have done.  Seems like for the price I'm looking to spend and for the quality I'm looking to get, everyone/everything is pointing me towards the Hilleberg brand.  For starters I live in NJ so I have zero idea where any local shop even has one in stock to set up and play around in.  As far as which tent, I've boiled it down to the Jannu and the Tarra.  Does anyone out here own either one of these two and could possibly give me some feedback.  The Jannu I believe is lighter but I think only has 1 vestibule.  I received the catalogue Hilleberg sent me and the sample of fabrics is really cool.  I can tell I'm not purchasing another "made in China" brand.  Thanks for your help.

 

Since you live in NJ and have been researching these tents quite extensively, you may want to consider the Tarra, as the ventilation is much better with the two vestibules. I sold the Jannu as it was a sauna in the summertime, but it was a great shelter for winter.

7:47 a.m. on July 18, 2011 (EDT)
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Vigilguy-whats your opinion on the venting in the unna? I havn't been able to test it yet (leaving tomorrow!), but setting it up in th backyard it does seem like it will get a little stuffy. I think in all but the worst weather/ bugs I'll just be leaving the doors rolled back and enjoying the view. Any thoughts, tricks that work for you?

7:54 a.m. on July 18, 2011 (EDT)
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Dewey said:

 I deal with the issues of stretch, etc, by using more tie-outs of fine, strong cord and this tends to aleviate the wind deformation of polesets, as well.

 Could you elaborate?  I've been thinking of using non-elastic cordage to connect my inner tent to the inside fly rings, etc. 

10:41 a.m. on July 19, 2011 (EDT)
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Jake W said:

Vigilguy-whats your opinion on the venting in the unna? I havn't been able to test it yet (leaving tomorrow!), but setting it up in th backyard it does seem like it will get a little stuffy. I think in all but the worst weather/ bugs I'll just be leaving the doors rolled back and enjoying the view. Any thoughts, tricks that work for you?

 I use the Unna in alpine environments, where the temps dip into the 30's and 40's at night.  So I usually zip up the door to eliminate drafts, so that it keeps warmer inside.  and the mosquitos outside.

If the temps were high and no bugs, I'd say the best way increase ventilation is to keep the door wide open, and guy out the back end, similar to the older Nallos. I love the Unna because it is simple to set up, it does not require much real estate, and there is a lot of internal space for one person. Pretty lightweight for a free-standing four season tent.

5:37 a.m. on July 20, 2011 (EDT)
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I take it you have to buy direct from Hilleberg and to try to find a coupon code would be like trying to find the toothfairy.

12:46 p.m. on July 20, 2011 (EDT)
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Hilleberg maintains a strict policy of charging retail, whether it be through them or one of their authorized retailers.  Some provide free shipping, however.

11:43 a.m. on July 26, 2011 (EDT)
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I have and have used both the Akto & the Nallo 3 for over 3 years now on many short and long tents.  Just went thru a trip with 50 mile winds and rain on top of the continental divide here in Colorado with the Nallo.  Also had the Nallo in torential rains 2 years ago in NM where it was like camping in a 4 inch deep river, the bath tub floor kept us dry inside (very nice).  Both tents have performed admirably over the years and are strong, lightweight and durable.  Well worth the $$$ they cost.  Also it is a good idea to get the footprints for what you buy.  The Nallo 3 is great for 2 and all there gear (backpacks, boots, etc.) staged between the sleepers (also gives you some added privacy if you don't want to wind up cuddling your buddy in the morning, lol.  My wife and I highly recommend this brand and these tents.

8:50 p.m. on August 8, 2011 (EDT)
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I wish they made the Jannu with double doors.  I'm so close to pulling the trigger but with no double doors I just think in summer I would cook.

9:12 p.m. on August 8, 2011 (EDT)
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skibum12 said:

I wish they made the Jannu with double doors.  I'm so close to pulling the trigger but with no double doors I just think in summer I would cook.

 They do - it is called the Tarra.

12:33 a.m. on August 9, 2011 (EDT)
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Yes, in design, but the details are more robust - 

The Tarra is expedition rated with the Kerlon 1800 fabric, tougher zippers, 10mm poles, tougher floor, etc.

The two doors REALLY makes a difference in ventilation, thus increasing its versatility.

If you can deal with the weight, its a fabulous tent.

3:09 p.m. on August 9, 2011 (EDT)
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Yeah I know, I'm seriously thinking of pulling the trigger with the Tarra this fall.  I wish they made the Jannu with a double door though, help keep some of the weight down.  I REALLY wish a local gear store in NJ would simply carry Hilleberg so I can see and crawl into one before I spend $900!  That would make my life even easier.  I'm going to be doing some weekend backpacking trips in Southern VT this fall, early winter along with my area.  I've been using an old Sierra Designs Nightwatch CD I bought back in late 90's I think.  Doesnt have the plastic "window" on the vestibule that the "newer" models have.  I really dont know what year my tent was made.  Its held up well through many rain, sleet storms and some light snow.  I'm just sick and tired of spending all this money on "Made in China" materials with almost all the brands out there.  Even Arcteryx!  Annoying. Rrrrrrrrr......

4:24 p.m. on August 9, 2011 (EDT)
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Made in China v.s. Made in Estonia.  

5:19 p.m. on August 9, 2011 (EDT)
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skibum12 said:

 I'm just sick and tired of spending all this money on "Made in China" materials with almost all the brands out there.  Even Arcteryx!  Annoying. Rrrrrrrrr......

 

We all are, Scott ... we all are.

I would like to see a meaningful boycott of Chinese-manufactured outdoor gear.  

I don't buy the junk.  

It looks OK for a year-or-so ... and, then self-destructs.

                                                        ~r2~

5:39 p.m. on August 9, 2011 (EDT)
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CWF said: "I'm just sick and tired of spending all this money on "Made in China" materials with almost all the brands out there.  Even Arcteryx!  Annoying. Rrrrrrrrr......"

Some of my finest tents are made in china:

 

Here we have the MH DW Sattilite.  This is a 10 pole, 63 sq ft tent, with titanium oxide covered fly.  All the componets on this tent are heavy duty with oversized poles, lock in clips, vents, windows two doors, etc.  This tent was made in China.  There is no American tent that even comes close to the strength and quality of this thing.  The only two tents I know of that my come close or equal this tent would be the TNF Militiary ECWT and the Hilleberg Saitaris.  If I can get my hands on a used Sataris I will test them out this winter on the leading edge of the Oly Penn. when the jet stream drags in 80+ mph storms.  That'll tell me what the tents are truly made of.
DSC04209.jpg
This tent has now take the place of my much loved well used TNF Oval Intention.  I would put this tent up against any tent on the market.  This thing is monster strong.  This picture was taken at midnight.

Many of my older Graruda tents were made in China (1993+/-).  The Garuda/Dana Design tents are wonderful, quality products that I would put up against most any of the current Americian products.  I get them all the time for $150-$200.

My points is we are the Walmart society who wants more & more  for our money thereby getting less and less.  Well there is a price to be payed.  The American person sew's exactly the same as the Chinese person.  The sewing machines are the same. The American person uses the same material as the Chinese person that is dictated by the American company that bases it's decision on the quartely bottom line which in turn is complicated by the fact that there is compitition.  The compitition is now to make the cheapest product avaliable for use to buy to make the max. amount of profits each quater for the share holder, not a better product.  American companies make tents for share holders not for backpackers/campers.  The above tent costs $1500 new in 2008.  I bought it new for unused as a close out for $750.  I would guess that the Chinese person who sewed this made $5 hr. (tops, maybe less).  In America it would be more like $60 and hour.  Now try to make a profit on that.  Imagine what this thing would cost $3000-$4000?.  It's not that it's made in China.  It's that American business will continue to make the crapyiest products avaliable if we keep buying them.  And we do, we bitch, whine, and complain as we pull out our credit cards to by a lot of garbage.  If you want tents and other products that are Made in America then we have to be willing shell out the doe.  Yea right like that's going to happen.  And really................ $500-$750 coats/jackets?.............. really?  It is  my IMHO but that is just one of the most retarted things I've heard in many many years.  Sighhhhhhhhhhh..............If you make it they will buy it.  Works with crappy housing, works with plastic dolls.  Everything sells in America, but mostly the crappy garbage with planned obsolence.  You can buy a backpack made in china/mexico for $300-$500 or an American backpack for $900-$3000.  The bottom line is if you keep buying new crap at expensive prices they will keep making the garbage that constitues so much of what's out there.  Companies don't listen to whining, they listen to profits.........or better yet, lack of profits.

Heck even Hillebergs aren't made in there original country much for the same reason that our tents are not made in our country.  The difference with Hilleberg is that still are using the quality materials that we do not.  I expect quality from hilleberg.  I have now come to expect mostly garbage from American companies.  Keep buying it..........they keep making it.  Buy America they say...... who says that?.......  the companies making this stuff.  Yea right.  Give me a Hilleberg or and Exped any day. 

7:15 p.m. on August 9, 2011 (EDT)
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Thats a cool tent you have apeman.  If made in China makes things more affordable then why havent we seen major price reductions on Arcteryx jackets?  Look, I dont mean to get off message and I'm not trying to stir up some political debate in this forum, my only point is that its frustrating to me, to look at buying a $700 NF tent made in China vs a $700 tent that Hilleberg would make.  I dont even own a Hilleberg (yet!).  I'm an avid mtn biker and my latest bike is a Moots.  Did I pay a lot of money for it?  Yes.  To me was it worth giving money to a company based in Steamboat Colorado knowing that my money will go to help pay someone's salary, feed their family along with provide health benefits here, yes.  The bike is amazing and I wouldnt think of buying another made in China brand mtn bike.  Thats all.

7:35 p.m. on August 9, 2011 (EDT)
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skibum12 said:  " If made in China makes things more affordable then why havent we seen major price reductions on Arcteryx jackets?"

 

The reason that things are not cheaper for us when made in China is exceedingly simple.  They (the things made in china) are cheaper, way cheaper.  However as a matter of economics the savings are not passed on to you.  If you are willing to pay the prices asked for by  Arcteryx then the Profit from the savings of being made in china is passed on to the stock holders and the Higher ups in the Company as bonus.  Arcteryx does not make jackets for you and me.  They make jackets for there stockholdes.  The more money the jacket makes the more the stockholder makes.  This is one of the founding principles of a captialistc system.  A thing is worth what you will pay for it, not what it is worth in material and not what you can make it for, only what you can sell it for.  Once along time ago a man in America took a rock and put it in a box.  He called it a "pet rock".  People bought so many boxes of rocks that the man made a fortune. He was in a time of few millionairs now one of them.  How much money does it take to put a rock in a box?

 

And yes I do belive in buying America if we can make at least an equall product as some one else.  In this case it's really irrelevent as there are only one or two tent manufactures in the USA.  All the rest are overseas. The only tent I would consider buying now that is made in America is STEPHENSONS.    STEPHENSONS (www.warmlite.com) is a family run company that is being run buy the second generation of family members.  STEPHENSONS (warmlite) was making cool quality UL tents long before going UL was Cool.  I hear/see that they make some very quality sleedping bags as well.   John W. Stephenson, the company's founder, was one of the innovators in some of the important fabric and gear design in the early 60's and 70's.  It is a very very quality light weight tent.  I had always wanted one of these tents but could not afford one till I found it used.  It is a 38 sq. foot 3 man tube tent that only weighs 3.75 lbs.  Yet in all the talk I see on Trailspace this tent manufacture never get a single mention.  I only have what I consider to be quality tents in my collection and this is most certianly one of them.    I did not creater this situation of having no manufacturing in the USA but I have to live with it.  My money  is worth far to much to buy crappy stuff made just anywhere, including the USA.  If we can make a quallity product then it will get my full attention.

With that being said America is well reowned for some of it's quality hand made bike frames.  All of the other componets I belive are made over seas.  If I were looking at a bike frame I would start here in America, though I would not limit my self to the USA just because I'm American.  France and Italy do fine work as well.

7:47 p.m. on August 9, 2011 (EDT)
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It all equals out to increased profit margins and less going out in overhead. 

They are not going to pass the savings onto the consumer when they can put it in their pockets or use this money for better R&D, or company expansion, etc.

Cutting down on labor cost(overhead) is a big part of this. 

Lets say you have someone building you a deck on your house, you have 3 bids. All of the bidders have awesome portfolios and comparable warranties on their work. Are you going to go with the most expensive bid when you can get the same results with the lowest bid? No...

Pretty much the same thing when it comes to how companies do business. 

These companies are in business to make money and maximizing their potential earnings can mean the difference between being a Fortune 500 company and bankruptcy .

The sole purpose of having a company is to successful. To be successful one has to maximize their profits to their full potential. I think many people have a tendency to over look that. 

8:12 p.m. on August 9, 2011 (EDT)
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Go here >>>> www.saveourcountryfirst.com

EVERYTHING sold is "Made-In-America".

The guy that founded this enterprise opened a store near Buffalo.  Doing great!

Online biz is strong.

Cool T-shirt:  "Because China is a Long Drive to Work".

                                                   ~r2~

9:25 p.m. on August 9, 2011 (EDT)
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I understand all of this made in china stuff.  Its just annoying that Arcteryx can make their jackets now for $5 but charge $500 for a gortex shell.  Rediculous.  "Oh but the quality of the jacket is second to none."  Yawn....

9:59 p.m. on August 9, 2011 (EDT)
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skibum12 said:
"Its just annoying that Arcteryx can make their jackets now for $5 but charge $500 for a gortex shell."

 

 

They can't if you don't buy it.  This is a free country and no one has to buy this stuff.  People choose to by this stuff.  I do not see any room for complaining.  The only rational way to not let this happen is, don't let this happen.  Stop buying this stuff, otherwise embrace it, it was what people spend their hard earned money on.

11:02 p.m. on August 9, 2011 (EDT)
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Arcteryx is still employing Canadian and American workers in other areas of the company.  By boycotting, you risk the chance to hurt their employment, not to mention each country's GNP and the tax revenue generated through their sales that go into the pocket of each country's government minimizing the personal tax required by the average Joe.  This of course, is just the tip of the iceberg.

You make is sound like it is black and white but the reality is it is very, very gray.

You should also be aware that Chinese workers do not make such jackets for $5.  Within 5 years the average Chinese worker will have a higher personal net worth than the average American.

12:32 a.m. on August 10, 2011 (EDT)
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CWFSaid:

"Arcteryx is still employing Canadian and American workers in other areas of the company.  By boycotting, you risk the chance to hurt their employment, not to mention each country's GNP and the tax revenue generated through their sales that go into the pocket of each country's government minimizing the personal tax required by the average Joe.  This of course, is just the tip of the iceberg.

You make is sound like it is black and white but the reality is it is very, very gray.

You should also be aware that Chinese workers do not make such jackets for $5.  Within 5 years the average Chinese worker will have a higher personal net worth than the average American."

 

 I did not say anything about boycotting  Arcteryx.  I mearly said that I would not buy an over priced jacket.  I still think they make a great backpack, the Bora's, esp the 80 & 95.  But why would I buy a new bora 80 for 400+/-  if I could get a very little used or one bought but never used for $150-$175.  Just not gunna happen.

 

In the late 70's early 80's the same argument was given( "you risk the chance to hurt their employment, not to mention each country's GNP..........") as a reason to buy the incredibly terrible cars the United states was making (ah, the K car).  It was untrue then and it's untrue now.   Instead everyone bought Toyotas, Hondas, Mazdas,  and Datsuns.  Thats  the way it works.  I will not buy inferior products or over priced products to save any ones job.  This is a world economy and we will have to deal with it.  Just as I would not buy an overpriced American car back then (I bought Honda and never looked back), I will not buy a $500 dollar jacket just to prop up a company that charges far to much for it product.  There are many great jackets on the market for far less money.  Besides the fact that I will own that jacket in 2 years for under $200 as someone will buy it and never use it, but it will still be a 2 year old use item.

 

It is not black and white, you are correct.  I've tried to explain what I want to say in th shortest way possible.  You are right this is a very complex subject that could be discussed for many days or years to come.  That does not mean I will not seak out the best value for my money.

 

Regardless of what the Chinese, Mexican, Indonisian, (Pick your nation) worker makes in wages it is still cheaper to make clothing and outdoor gear in all those countries, otherwise we would make it here as is all about the bottom line and the quarterly earnings.  I did not invent this or ask this to happen.  I wish we as a nation could compete on the world market but I'm afraid for the time being we have been beaten at out own game.  It is the game of capitalism, and we are not winning the game today.  In fact I would say we are losing, IMHO.

1:07 a.m. on August 10, 2011 (EDT)
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...yeah skibum12, Hille makes one awesome tent... :)

1:28 a.m. on August 10, 2011 (EDT)
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apeman - agree that global capitalism has muddied the waters, so to speak, with respect to where the product is made (i.e. Chinese workers making a product with fabric from Canada where profits go to a US company, etc) and with respect to value.  I would also agree that North America IS losing.

But what is the answer?  (I could go on a rant about US manufacturing and corporate tax breaks but it would just depress me)

Hilleberg makes Awesome tents....; )

2:12 a.m. on August 10, 2011 (EDT)
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Hilleberg does make some Awesome tents, I want a Saitaris and a Savio.  I'm on the hunt.

@ CWF :  I belive that the answer is simple but the American public will only let it happen buy defalt.  Americans live far to high on the hog compaird to the rest of the world.  We have to take a decrease in our standard of living while the rest of the world increases their standard of living so that we can meet in the middle.  A very easy answer that is very complex to implement.  I belive we will not except this other than when it is thrust upon us and that we will not as a nation go willingly.  This is of cource just my opinion.  Thanks for the lively debate.  May we all get the Hilleberg(s, ;-}> ) we want.  Peace out

7:42 a.m. on August 10, 2011 (EDT)
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CWF said:

.  Within 5 years the average Chinese worker will have a higher personal net worth than the average American.

  Hmmm ....

Upon what information gives you cause to make THAT statement?

At least the Chinese aren't saddled with an inept administration, as we are here in USA.   At the rate these morons are going, and if they are re-elected,  you could be right

                                                   ~r2~

9:22 a.m. on August 10, 2011 (EDT)
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Robert Rowe said:

At least the Chinese aren't saddled with an inept administration, as we are here in USA.  

  This has got to be, hands down, the absolute funniest thing I have read all year.

However much I might dislike either our last or current presidential administrations, I will take either of them any day over a severely oppressive militaristic government who commits countless human rights violations on a scale that is globally unparalleled.

9:32 a.m. on August 10, 2011 (EDT)
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The KEY WORD here, Goggans, is inept.

While I agree with you regarding the administrations here, and the state of totalitarian rule in China ... the Chinese rulers do not seem to be "inept", as far as we know.   

I am pleased I could add humor to your year-to-date experience.

                                               ~r2~

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