Boy scout tragedy in Iowa

One question. Why on earth were these people camping in an area when they knew of the conditions? Perhaps they didn't know? Either way I assume they were car camping and should've left immediately. When I was a scout I know our leaders did not screw around with the weather. I live in Tornado Alley so I know about the freak nature of tornadoes, but on the flip side of that is the fact that radar tracking is typically pretty advanced in this area and provides pretty accurate data.

I was not a boy scout, but I did get my son involved for several years. I went on several outings with them to help out, which I enjoyed. I think that in spirit it is a great organization.
One overnighter we went on was to the Citadel (military college) here in Charleston SC, the Citadel allowed us to set up "camp" on their football field. On the third day, while we were at chow, a nasty storm rolled in with high winds and destroyed the camp.
Only one or two tents had been staked down, the majority of them had not been zipped up prior to us leaving. End result was a big pile of tents down on one end of the field and everyone's belongings scattered all over the place, wet!
Not a lot of happy campers!
90% of that was avoidable by using some common sense, I really think SOME of the scout leaders could use some better training. However I would highly recommend getting youngsters involved with scouting, and us adults helping out as much as we can. Especially if we can bring some valuable skill sets, that would be a big help to the scoutmasters.
My heart goes out to the families in Iowa!

MTB416,
The Scouts in Iowa were were at an established camp that has been there for years. They were not car camping. They were in camp for a week-long training session, so very few cars were at the camp.

Living in Tornado Alley, you know that the probability of a given location being hit by a tornado is pretty small. Not every frontal system generates tornadoes, and not every thunderstorm in a frontal system generates tornadoes. Ok, I am overlooking "mobile home parks", aka "tornado magnets".

Every area has its natural disasters, yet people ignore them. While I was in Mississippi, I saw the same part of town, along the banks of the Pearl River, get flooded every 2-3 years. Yet the people would collect their federal flood insurance and rebuild or repair their houses. During the 10 years I was there, no tornadoes touched down in the city (there is a legend that tornadoes don't hit cities, despite numerous counterexamples). But about 10 years before we moved there and 15 years after, tornadoes did touch down. But "they only damaged a small part of town" (implying that "my part of town is safe")

The path and exact point of touchdown for a tornado is still impossible to forecast (look at how hard it is for professional storm chasers, equipped with mobile radar units and radio-linked to dedicated storm tracking installations to actually get up close to the tornadoes, spending full time 24/7 to get close enough to get the observations they need. Yes, you can get warnings, but where do you go to *guarantee* you will be away from the tornado, IF one forms and IF it actually reaches the ground?

I guess I would have to ask, why do you live in Tornado Alley, since you know that is the part of the world that has the most tornadoes? Why are you putting your family and earthly possessions at risk? Do you pack up everything and move it out of the area for every tornado watch?

Yes, it is legitimate to ask me why I live in the SF Bay Area, within 5 miles of the San Andreas Fault, and on the other side 10 miles from the Hayward Fault (predicted to be the next one to let loose), plus in a house that is 6 feet above sea level (with global warming predicted to raise sea level by 5 to 20 to 200 feet (depending on who you read). Answer is the day to day risk is low, the weather is fantastically pleasant 99% of the time, and the mountains for backpacking, climbing, and skiing are close (you can literally go skiing in the morning and surfing in the afternoon).

I could also ask why anyone would live in the 90-90 weather that much of the country gets, or the winter blizzards that the northern part of the country (or much of Canada) gets, or the high risk of floods near the Missouri, Mississippi, and Ohio systems with their tributary systems.

It's a trade-off of risk vs rewards.

trouthunter,
You are quite right that all too many adult scout leaders are inexperienced and untrained. And all too many who have experience have the wrong kind of experience (having climbed Everest or been a survival trainer of enlisted men in Antarctica is not the same as what is needed for Scout outings - enlistees and volunteers are older and more mature that teenagers in full hormonal flow, for one thing). This is one of the major reasons that I spend time running training workshops for youth group leaders. It is also unfortunate that too many professional Scouters (I include both BSA and GSUSA in this) are in it for "the job". A larger percentage of them are less knowledgeable and less experienced than many of the parents who volunteer.

Another problem is that both programs have been and are continuing to be "made relevant" to the times, with more and more emphasis on dealing with modern widgets and less on leadership, self-reliance, and all those things that come with having to live in the outdoors.

But we have to be grateful that there are some parents who are willing to help out, and many who are willing to get the training needed.

One thing that MTB is probably right about - the adults at the camp probably did not know of the risks and probably did not know how to deal with such an emergency. Many of the staff were probably summer hires who were trained for the "routine emergencies", which almost always involve 1 or 2 people at a time, not ones which involve the entire camp with as short a notice as tornadoes give. Then again, in the towns which were hit in the past couple of months by tornadoes, how many were evacuated before the tornadoes hit, despite having good radar and satellite coverage and potential reverse-911 systems?

Actually Bill, many houses in the panhandle have tornado shelters underground in the backyard, so yes, I do take the proper precautions when a storm hits or might hit. As for my belongings who cares, that stuff is replaceable, unlike a child's life. So they were at an established camp, I am willing to bet they got there by driving. When I was a child and visited these camps we nearly always got there by car, that's car camping to me. Tornadoes are perhaps the most difficult thing to predict in terms of mother nature, therefore you must be doubly sure about your conditions. Either way, this tragedy could have been avoided. As for why I live here, I must live in Tornado Alley because of school. It has been nearly 20 years since my city was hit by a tornado, which left devastating results, but the threat is always there. My college is one of the nations leaders in terms of tornado research, so our warning systems are highly advanced. But not heading the advice of professionals makes this information useless. It is always better to be safe than sorry when mother nature is involved.

One of the local scout camps we have (Camp Hohnonwa) is thirty miles from my house.
During the week long camps my son went to every summer, I dropped him off, and picked him back up in a week. There where usually few cars there all week. Several of the buildings are concrete buildings and serve as emergency shelters in severe weather. I have no idea how they would do in a tornado, poorly I suspect.

Bill, when I attended summer camp as a Boy Scout we never had a tornado drill while in camp. Maybe this is needed? The camp I attended also didn't have a several weather shelter, other than the main lodge.

Do you think the Boy Scouts should invest $$$ to build severe weather shelters for all their camps?

I wish they could, but I am sure the funding for such a project just isn't there. Didn't they lose millions in funding with their comments/rules on gay leaders?

MTB416, yes, I am well aware that many houses and buildings in Tornado Alley have storm cellars and other emergency shelters. I am not sure the tragedy could have been completely avoided, though I would agree that the risk could have been lowered considerably (when it comes to tornadoes, hurricanes, floods, earthquakes, and other natural disasters, there is no 100% guaranteed way to avoid the consequences - same with the wildfires we have here in California).

As trouthunter points out, for scout camps, and youth camps in general, the staff and campers are transported there by bus or by cars that do not stay at the camp. Many camps, in fact, (scouts, Y, private camps) forbid personal cars staying at the camp. To a large extent, this is because parking space is at a premium, but also for the junior staff especially, it keeps people in camp and not off partying it up in the evenings (movies notwithstanding). This means, of course, that there is no good way to do a rapid evacuation in case of impending disaster. Floods, wildfires, and hurricanes give enough warning to get transportation in (usually), but tornadoes are different - there is much less warning time.

I believe I read that the scouts and staff in this case were gathered into a concrete block building, which might have been safe, but apparently was not in this case (such buildings are not safe in earthquakes, but in tornadoes? Depends, I suspect on how the building was put up). But some part of the building collapsed. Maybe the camp could have had storm cellar (how big?).

You comment about not heeding the advice of professionals. Lots of people do not seem to heed the warnings for hurricanes, tornadoes, floods, wildfires, even when they are right on them (in the recent and current wildfires here, we have lots of people in areas with heavy fuel loads who refuse to evacuate, thinking they can save their homes with a garden hose).

There is no explaining this one away Bill. This tragedy could have been avoided, but it wasn't. I am sure they had vehicles on sight. The lack of training and preparation once again claim the lives of 4 kids. I have survived 2 tornadoes, with one making a direct hit behind my house. It decided to pick up our shed and kindly move it to our neighbors yard. How did we survive? 90% reacting properly and 10% luck. I would say 100% reacting properly but you just never know. Pay attention to the radar and you'll be fine. These camp leaders apparently can't read a radar map. This situation just pisses me off (excuse the language please). The proper precautions WERE NOT taken, pure and simple. Mother nature still reigns supreme but I am not going to let the "freak accident" theory work on this situation, what an easy cop-out.

Barb pointed out something that I hadn't thought of and no one here has pointed out, a lesson we in the SFBay Area should have learned a few years back in the Oakland Hills Fire. As the fire was building, residents piled into their cars and all headed out of the hills. Thanks to narrow roads and panic driving, a number of lives were lost due to fire, smoke inhalation, and car accident injuries. Among the dead were a world-famous mountaineer and his wife and another famous mountaineer who lived on my side of the Bay (all 3 acquaintances).

A car is one of the worst places you can be when a tornado hits, as NOAA emphasizes on their websites and in their printed literature. Since roads are limited in their directions, plus the movement of a tornado is very unpredictable on a small scale, the kind of traffic jam and panic driving trying to flee the scout camp could well have resulted in as many or more fatalities. I would also doubt that the radar maps were available at the camp, and you are undoubtedly correct, the camp leaders probably would not know how to read the radar display.

However, being very familiar with Scout and other youth camps, I seriously doubt there were sufficient cars to evacuate all the people in camp. Evacuation in case of wildfire is a concern that is much discussed in this area, but little has actually been done about. A lot of the attitude seems to be "it hasn't happened, and it isn't likely to happen" - hubris, naivety, whatever you want to call it. People "get away with it" for decades for all these natural disasters (and manmade disasters), and believe they can continue "getting away with it".

You and I may have the training and knowledge, but few people, even living in tornado country, have that background. Certainly, that was true in Mississippi when I lived there for some 10 years (and was chair of the Department of Physics and Atmospheric Science at the state university I was at).

No, I am not offering this as an excuse. It is just the unfortunate reality of the situation.

MTB416, You seem to be saying that an evacuation was the proper course of action for the camp leaders to have taken.
You may wish to consider that the leaders were just following an existing emergency preparedness plan developed by the scout council, which called for them to take shelter in one of the hardened buildings.
Evacuations take time, especially with kids, I don't know if they had ADEQUATE warning to consider an evacuation viable. Even with radar.
If they had limited transportation, who do you leave behind? (cold fact!)
Maybe they should keep a couple buses handy, I will give you that.
But what would you have said if they evacuated, and the tornado did not hit the camp but their evac. route?
Also they were not car camping as Bill S. points out. These camps generally have a parking area with trails leading to the tent sites, often a good distance away, again, for the reasons that Bill S. pointed out. Once the parents hug their kids the parents leave in the car they came in!
Car camping is when you park your car, and toss your stuff out on the ground and listen to "A country boy can survive" while you try to remember how the tent goes together. Some with a beer in one hand, and leaning against a tree covered in poison ivy, but I digress.
Just because you know the conditions are right for a tornado to form, does not mean you know where it will touch down!
Maybe you could redirect your frustration and help raise some money so the boy scout camp could afford to build an underground bunker for 200 to 300 people. Or put your expertise to work helping them develop a VIABLE evac. plan.
I have spent a lot of time on top of the Cumberland Plateau,
in many places you can see for 200 miles or better, so we had plenty of "accurate data" with or without radar. You could watch the storm cells form, and see which way they were tracking.
Tornadoes and microbursts were not uncommon. Many people had wine cellars or bunkers, short of that we were advised to take shelter in a room that was in the center of the house. Hopping in your car and trying to outrun the tornado was never recommended.
I do appreciate your level of concern, some people don't care. And don't ever get involved.

tbastress asked

Quote:

Bill, when I attended summer camp as a Boy Scout we never had a tornado drill while in camp. Maybe this is needed? The camp I attended also didn't have a several weather shelter, other than the main lodge.

Do you think the Boy Scouts should invest $$$ to build severe weather shelters for all their camps?

Short answer is the national BSA, GSUSA, and Y organizations do require emergency drills at least once during each camp session. Severe weather shelters are generally not required, but "advised".

The main rules and guidelines, though, are what the local governmental agencies require. Here in California, the permit processes are complex and pretty strict. In much of the country, especially the MidWest and South, the rules are much more lax (I am on the facilities committee for one BSA council and get to hear from the Risk Management Committee several times a year on this sort of question).

Some of us push for stricter guidelines, but money has always been tight, with with more slowdown these days due to people and corporations (the big donors) tightening their belts with the rise in all expenses. Often the donors will donate something like real estate (getting a big tax writeoff), but no money to do anything but let the land sit unused.

One of our camps is on Huntington Lake in the Sierra, along with several other camps on the southern shoreline (private as well as GSUSA and BSA). The access is via boat, no roads. Thus the evac route is across the lake. Yeah, you are thinking, "DUMB! To cover the possibility of forest fires, our camp has floating docks for swimming and boating on the waterfront. We do have fire drills on which everyone in camp goes to the waterfront and onto the docks, lays down (for stability) and the docks are set loose and towed by the barges out into the big cove (or potentially the middle of the lake). This is the procedure BSA devised and approved by the Forest Service (land is leased from the national forest for all the camps).

All the camps have similar evacuation plans. Earthquake might be a problem, since the lake is a reservoir, with the potential for dam breakage for Huntington and upstream reservoirs. Hopefully, you wouldn't have both fire and earthquake.

The local authorities covering our other two camps in the Santa Cruz Mountains (mostly CalFire, but also the 2 counties covering each of the 2) basically rely on limits on number of people and cars in camp (there are more cars during special weekend events). Still as was proven in last weeks Bonny Doon fire, evacuation by car is iffy, with all the private residences in the hills and the winding roads. The residents want the winding roads because it discourages casual sightseers, forgetting that winding narrow roads make it hard for fire trucks to get in and residents to get out (many of the residents believe they can protect their homes with garden hoses, despite not having built a defensible clear space).

Oh, by the way, we do have tornadoes in California, mostly in the Central Valley. Just not as many as the MidWest.

All I see are excuses. I have lived with tornadoes long enough to know that the danger is avoidable. And while a car is not the place you want to be in a tornado at least you are making an attempt to better your chances. The place the boy scouts were OBVIOUSLY was not safe, I mean four of them died didn't they?
You guys are right that you cannot predict a tornado even if conditions are favorable, but the fact still remains that they are favorable. Here in the panhandle of Texas we get many tornadoes. In fact, one just landed north of here hours ago. As a result few people die because we know the threat is always there, with every storm. This Iowa camp has some serious questions to answer.

MTB416, Please enlighten all of us seasoned campers with your plan on how to avoid this danger while in the woods.

I,m thinking maybe dig a foxhole REALLY quick.
OR carry a large steel trashcan to place over my head while I run in a zig zag pattern!
OR seek shelter in a large concrete building like I was taught to do.

Your opinion that hopping in a car to escape a tornado is in direct contradiction to everything that is taught by highly skilled people that deal with disasters on a daily basis.

All I hear from you is rhetoric, please be specific. Exactly HOW is it avoidable?
And please don't say, "If they had stayed at home......"

If you are going to criticize, you must be prepared to offer real world solutions, we all understand your feelings regarding this tragedy, but it happens.

First My thoughts are with the victims, their families, and yes the Scout leaders.

Keep in mind the difficulty of planning preparing for and being ready for every emergency all the time. This is not an excuse.

In my neck of the woods, which does not I repeat does not receive tornadoes, we have had some very fierce weather storms in the last few years that the communities were not fully prepared for. We had a record snowfall that paralyzed the region for days. Local governments had not thought of co-ordinated snow removal. Communications systems failed or were not interconnected. The Emergency people could not get to their muster areas until the road was plowed. The then had to wait until the road could be plowed to the emergency. One of my wife’s co-workers had to plow the road to his home to let the emergency people assess the damage to his house. The roof had collapsed, like so many others.

We suffered a number of very strong wind storms in the fall two years ago, near hurricane force winds. The largest trees were toppled, onto homes, cars, roads, power lines. Power was interrupted frequently. The power people were working overtime over and over again, just catching up only to have to begin again.

As for Scout leadership. In my area again, Some of the Scout leaders are very well trained, with a wealth of experience. Others are still working towards that level. I had just become a Scout leader (to keep the troop active, all 4 boys) and had taken them out for a day trip. I later found out about two incidents that shook me up. The first was that a SAR group was on a training exercise at the same time they were looking for a corpse in the same park we were in. The second incident was that a local Scout troop found themselves stuck on a mountain overnight during a snowstorm. These two incidents brought home to me the possibly terrible responsibility Scout Leaders have. I didn’t plan to have the troop witness a body recovery, who would want to? The leaders on the hill had not planned to camp out on an exposed hillside overnight in a snowstorm. Later I and my son gravitated to the group who had been stuck on the hill. We stayed with Scouting for another year. What a great year it was.

Please do not beat up the Scout leaders as they have a lot to do. There will be a lot of questions and Monday Night quarterbacking why something was not done. There will also be a lot of covering oneself by those who think they need to. Hindsight is always 20/20.

You seem to be genuinely concerned so perhaps you could help out your local Scout Group at the local level. To be prepared so to speak. The Leadership need support, and Ideas. Help them out.
You learn from past events and prepare for the future.

Exactly!

Bill,

I was looking over the Guide to Safe Scouting, and there wasn't any mentioned of severe weather preparedness other than for dealing with lightning while hiking.

I just checked the Boy Scout website. They now require "Weather Smart" training to receive a tour permit.

The training includes the following topics:
Weather Planning & Prep
Lightning
Cold Weather
Hot Weather
Hail
Flash Floods
Tornadoes
Windstorms
Traditional Weather Signs
Hurricanes

The training recommends you tak along a NOAA weather radio on all outtings.

Well your "real world" solutions resulted in four deaths, so I do not see your logic. Staying put in a building you know would not survive is plain stupidity to me. They should not have been there in the first place!
I knew you guys would tear apart my get in the car and drive away theory, but I literally know people who have had to do this, and it probably saved their lives. Storm chasers, whom I was not referring to in that case, are numerous here and therefore I know a few of them. They ALL agreed that this situation was avoidable.
Here are the facts: they should not have been there in the first place, they we're not prepared, both in structures and knowledge, and four young boys are dead. Sounds like the NOAA advice worked right(hope you're sensing the sarcasm)? I personally would not take tornado advice from anyone that does not see it first hand. These homogenized book responses might work theoretically and certainly do save lives at times, but the fact still remains, four scouts died needlessly. You must react to the situation you're given, and that situation might not have been expressed in some book you read.

To the fox hole joke In the backcountry I am sure that would not be a bad idea if you cannot find proper shelter.

tbastress, You are right that GSS does not cover anything more than the basics. But at least one adult leader on any trek, day hike or longer, must have gone through the Trek Safely briefing. This is admittedly just protocol and procedures, but does suggest further training. There are several other "Safely" briefings - Safe Swim, Safety Afloat, Climbing, plus Youth Protection.

The main "safety" guideline for severe weather has always been the unofficial one of "use common sense [whatever that is], cancel the trip, and stay home if things look at all iffy". As you know, each unit in BSA (Troop, Pack, Post, Crew, Ship) is individually "owned" by their local chartering organization, not the council and not BSA national (GSUSA is different - the national organization "owns" all units). This means BSA only has guidelines, not required rules, so every unit is basically on their own to accept the offered training and national guidelines or not. The penalties for not doing so are very few, mostly in conjunction with national-level activities. A big source of frustration for many of us, who see too many untrained people out there.

I was referring to the National Standards for established camps with respect to the question of evacuation from Council-level camps in the earlier post. There are other National Standards publications for Council and District activities. Unfortunately, these are not easily available for the unit-level leaders, though some councils have them on their websites.

A question for MTB416 - you say the shed in your back yard was picked up and moved by a tornado. You say that a tornado touched down "just north .. a few hours ago". You say the Texas Panhandle has lots of tornadoes (Having been through there many times and having flown my plane through there many times, and having landed several times at the aptly named Tradewinds airport, I know that statement is very much correct).

To me, this sounds like Big Red Warning Flags are waving. Why are you still living there? Yes, I know you said you are in college there. But there are hundreds of excellent colleges in places that don't have tornadoes. You are condemning the Iowa scout organization for having a camp in a "known" tornado danger spot, yet you stay in the Panhandle, which has a higher density of tornadoes than Iowa. Something seems inconsistent here. By the way, I have relatives living in that area and have discussed this sort of thing with them, so I know their rationale. What is yours?

Bill,

You are certainly correct when you say unit leaders may not be properly trained. The leaders in the Boy Scout unit I'm familiar with haven't attended one training class. However, the SM is a bit OCD, so he's pretty careful when it comes to the boys (yet, he sleeps with a Coleman heater in his tent?!?!?).

FWIW, the leader training I have received as a Cub master isn't anything special; it's common sense stuff. Same with Youth Protection, Safe Swim, etc. Granted, I have yet to attend BALOO, Okama, Green Bar, Wood Badge, or other more intensive leadership training. My other pack leaders have taken the basic classes to get their trained patch, and they all commented afterward that they felt the classes were a waste of time because the stuff was so basic and common sense.

This fall I plan to complete BALOO and Okama, so maybe my perspective on BSA leadership training will change afterwards.

Bill - So you are suggesting I move colleges? Come on man, you have to admit you are being a little ridiculous. I like West Texas anyways. The sunsets alone are enough to like it. You live in California correct? This is a state with more possible natural disasters than any other. Earthquakes, landslides, sink holes, possible (if very small) tsunami threats, yearly wildfires, need I go on?

To answer your question I must first point out the manipulation of my words. I said they should not have been there in the first place, and that is totally correct. They should not have been there when CONDITIONS ARE FAVORABLE for a tornado. Are you telling me that simply because I live in a tornado prone area I couldn't go camping at anytime, regardless of current weather conditions?

If conditions are favorable for a tornado in Tornado Alley do not go camping, it really is this simple. My rationale for living here is my attending school as stated before. I am confident in my skills for surviving a tornado, thusly I have survived two and numerous scares. Just to add, the shed being picked up is no joke. This tornado literally jumped over ours and other neighbors houses, thankfully leaving minimal damage to our homes. It was quite a miracle. Did lose a few socket wrenches though, ha.

Ahem, pardon my ignorance, as I come from an area where tornadoes are rare, but from my limited understanding, aren't they unpredictable and sudden in appearance? Agreed, one shouldn't go camping when there is a tornado warning in effect, but what do you do if a storm comes up during your stay? The Iowa scouts were supposed to be there for a week, were they not?

Like every outdoor activity, yes, emergencies are 100% preventable - by staying indoors in a mausoleum, wrapped head to toe in cotton batting. We all measure our level of risk when we leave the house (whether we're driving to work, climbing mountains, backpacking solo, or going to college in Iowa), and we then make a decision as to what is or isn't acceptable to us. Others may not understand those decisions, but there must be a balance between healthy discovery of the world around us and the desire of others to keep us safe from harm...

MTB416, You are not grasping the facts of the situation in Iowa! You also completely missed the point that Bill S. made.

Fact: The scouts were there for a WEEK long camp. How do you expect anyone to know several days ahead of time that conditions may become favorable for a tornado?

Fact: Many parents drop their kids off and return home with the car! How were the scouts supposed to leave in a car that was not there?

Again nothing on your part but rhetoric, because you do not understand as much as you think you do. I lived in tornado alley for 15 years MTB416!
According to your own rationale of knowing how to survive tornadoes because you live in tornado alley, you ought to understand that I would naturally posses more skill and knowledge on the subject than you do.
I am not making that argument, there are many people more knowledgeable than me who work in the FIELD,(not book knowledge!), with natural disasters, and the statistics show that it is safer to seek adequate shelter than to flee in your vehicle. That would only be viable if you already knew with some certainty exactly where the tornado was going to touch down.
I fully understand that you could track the path of the storm and drive away from the storm, given enough advance warning, in theory! As Bill S. pointed out, in real life you would probably only INCREASE your risk level, that is just common sense.
When you are responsible for someone else's kids you cannot play the wild card! You must adhere to the recommendations and emergency plans that are put in place.

NLees has demonstrated a greater understanding than you have , and by his own admission lives in an area where tornadoes are rare.

Maybe we could discuss hiking or fishing or something and get to know each other better, and find some common ground.

MTB416
I am sorry to here about your loss of socket wrenches.

Please take your passion, anger, frustration and make something positive come out of all this. Join the local Scout group. You could make this your reason or area of concern. Provide consulting advise, that type of thing. If more people ask questions before an occurrence, the less likely the group would have an occurrence. It could be possible for you with your passion to advise more that one group thus making more youth safe.

You might have to shake up a few trees to get some of the leadership to listen and understand your position though. That is if they are anything like the officialdom of my area.

Just remember that the thought has to occur first. After the thought any sort of idea, plan, course of action may take place. The thought must occur first.
Live where you want to live just be prepared for the events of the area.

What facts am I not understanding again trouthunter? And why would you possess more tornado knowledge again, because you assume so? Like I said before, if you think they did the right thing, which resulted in 4 deaths, be my guest and follow their lead. I however would be in my car haulin a$$ away. You will never catch me in a structural unsound building during a tornado. I am probably the only person on this thread to experience a tornado first hand, up close. Not once, but twice. Not to mention the several I have watched from a distance. You're right, I have no understanding of tornadoes.

Did you even read my (and other) posts? Because you keep asking questions that were answered in the previous post.
Go back, calm down, and read my post again, and you should not have to ask those questions.
You seem to think that you know something we do not, do you even know how many people live in tornado alley, or how many states it includes?
And by the way I have been in a Tornado, in Grundy county Tn. where we had a hardened cellar. Why are you holding the Boy Scouts to a higher standard than the public school system, or your local wal-mart store? Do they evac?
I think you are beating a dead horse and just want to argue for the sake of it, I have better things to do, like backpacking, let's talk about that!

MTB assumes

Quote:

I am probably the only person on this thread to experience a tornado first hand, up close.

You know what they say about assumptions. There are at least 4 regular Trailspace contributors I know for sure have experienced tornadoes "first hand, up close", and a couple who have also gone through major hurricanes (Ed, where are you? You need to talk about your "hurricane hammock")

You forget (or didn't read that in any of several posts on Trailspace) that I was Chair of a department of Physics and Atmospheric Science while in the State of Mississippi's university system (I moved back to California some years ago and am now retired). I could add that, as a ham radio operator down there, I was on the SkyWarn team (storm spotters who tracked progress of severe storms through the state). Maybe sometime I will post some of my storm photos, or if I can get the video in the right format, my appearances on the various Jackson area TV stations discussing tornadoes. And, although it's my son, not me, Young Son is an atmospheric scientist, with his research specialty being severe weather. He is considered one of the experts on the portable radar systems used to chase tornadoes and that are dispersed for hurricane observation.

Oh, wait. You said "up close". Well, depends on what you mean up close. I had the information available when doing the SkyWarn to stay a safe, but viewable distance away. It was kind of interesting to watch all the water get sucked out of a lake, though.

Speaking of natural disasters, the only natural disaster that the Panhandle lacks that happens in parts of California is tsunami (the tsunami that hit the north coast was far from small, having wiped out the town of Crescent City). You do, in fact, get earthquakes in the Panhandle, and you do get wildfires. There have been several sizeable sinkholes in the Panhandle in the past few years (in some of the overdrawn oil fields, despite salt water injection). I have a bit of acquaintance with the area, in part because of having relatives there and in part because I was offered a position at Permian about 35 years ago (and turned it down for a better offer, when I noticed the nearby town of Notrees, which indeed has no trees, at least no native trees). By the way, I seem to recall a tornado in Wichita that destroyed a number of buildings and killed a few people, mostly in their cars, some supposedly trying to "haulin a$$ away".

Everyplace on the Earth has natural disasters. You just have to pick and choose the ones you are willing to tolerate.

I agree with trouthunter. Let's drop this line and stick to the charter of Trailspace - Backpacking, Climbing, and gear discussions. Maybe Dave and Alicia should lock this thread.

Just for the record, I was not in the direct path of a tornado, it touched down west of us in Altamont TN and missed us by two streets. It was classified as an F2 and no one was killed as best I know. The NWS issued a tornado warning while we were eating supper, we did have a cellar under our house and we stayed there till after 11.00 PM.
Good thing we were at home, because it was the only place where we could have gotten underground, better than during the day with the kids at school or on the bus.
My family also moved to Charleston SC two weeks before hurricane Hugo came through, what a house warming that was.
Hugo had sustained winds at 130.00 mph much of the time. Several people were killed trying to evac. at the last minute, or by staying put on one of our barrier islands.
You educate yourself, plan the best you can, and live your life!

Why can't I stay away from this site?

Thanks for the resume Bill.

Hey, so I just heard about this death of a boy at an air show in Huntsville, AL. A strong thunderstorm had blown in, apparently "out of nowhere", and spectators were caught in those huge white tents often used at large events. The tragic death of another child due to poor judgment sadly just proves my point again. People failed to react properly.

Come on - they were at an air show, at an airport. I think it's safe to say that ATC had to be working. ATC tends to keep an eye on the radar (I hope). Secondly, while airport hangars might not be strong enough to withstand a tornado, I am confident they could withstand even very severe T-storms, not to mention easily house hundreds of people. There had to be a hangar within walking distance, if not directly next to the event. EVERY air show I have ever attended was positioned in this way around the airport.

How this storm "came out of nowhere" is a mystery to me. If an airport can't track a storm system then I think we should all just start driving more.

I sometimes wonder what the accident rate is at air shows and injury rate for spectators as well as the pilots/skydivers/other participants. As a ham radio operator, I have worked as "shadow" for the official staff (mostly at Moffet when it was a Naval Air Station, but others military and civilian). There is a strong tendency that "the show must go on" because the spectators are expecting it (and complain bitterly if there is a cancellation or if things are running late). An attitude of "don't cancel or delay unless absolutely necessary. And some spectators at the shows I have worked seem to want to see a crash or mishap. Well, people spend good money to see a couple of guys beat each other to a pulp - the more blood the better. Same with car races - they want to see the crashes, the more fiery and spectacular the better they like it.

I'm getting annoyed at Versus and the emphasis in their Tour de France coverage on the massive crashes - if the day's ride doesn't have a big one, they replay some from previous years over and over, plus have all the ads for "cage fighting" (whatever that is supposed to be). The narrators talk about the skill and tactics, but the people selecting the camera angles and replays seem to concentrate on the disasters.

Which Huntsville AP was it? Not all airshows are at big airports or have large enough hangers for all the spectators. When I was living in the Deep South, there were many airshows at small airports that had no tower (only an FBO) and all the local planes were tied down (no hangers of any kind). There are several like this around Huntsville. Or was it at the main Huntsville AP or the NASA/Army site?

Bill, I did a quick yahoo search and found several articles on this incident. It happened Sunday, June 29 at Huntsville International Airport. According to accounts, the storm was stronger than expected-the high speed wind was described in several accounts as a "microburst" that blew over several large tents. The fatality was a young child crushed by a large portable air conditioner that fell on him when the tent he was in blew over. A couple of the local area news websites have pictures.

A microburst is a part of the formation of serious thunderstorms. For larger storms it becomes a "downburst", and has been responsible for several major airplane crashes, notably a DC-10 on approach to DFW a couple decades back. They are semi-predictable in that if a thunderstorm is forming you might get one, but you might not, with the intensity highly variable (hence intensity essentially unpredictable). With on-board radar, commercial aircraft can see them well enough to avoid them and, given their speed, to get around them. On the ground is a different story.

The details of how they occur are way beyond the space available here. Anyway, the statement that it was "unpredictable" is pretty accurate - you know there are thunderstorms in the vicinity and forming, but whether or which (or none) will generate a downburst or the smaller microburst is not really predictable. You can say "conditions are right" for their formation, but that's about it. Reason they are not really predictable is that they are a sort of "tipping point" phenomenon - will you get to the trigger point or not - the "tip-over" is very sharp.

Bill, I remember that crash. There were a number of references to it that showed up on shows about bad weather, if I remember right.

From the accounts I read online, one of the problems at the air show was that there were just too many people there for the available shelter,even if the storm had been predictable within a short time frame. One person said they managed to get to their car, but another one who had been in one of the tents said he and his family were just too far from their car to try and get to it before the rain and wind hit them.

The tents were those really big, high-sided event tents, so even if they were anchored down fairly well, it appears from some pictures I saw that the wind just blew at least a couple of them right over.

That seems to be a lesson that should be applied to backpacking tent design-be careful how much vertical surface area there is and make sure the tent is well anchored if you expect bad weather.

In a Perfect world.....

Never heard of that "tipping point" term, it makes perfect sense, not to mention explain why these occur unexpectedly even with warning systems.
I know my posts on this thread have made me seem like I look at the world in Black and White, which I really do not normally do, but reacting to weather is a subject to which "black and white" applies IMO. I did assume they might have been at a larger airport and that is because all the shows I have been to have typically been at military installations. The facilities I suggested might have not been there. In any case, the event coordinators did not react properly. People who can make the tough call, when everyone else is saying the show must go on is the type of person who should be in a leadership position.

MTB416, You are right about leadership qualities, however, I can tell you with first hand experience that a good leader, with integrity, who consistently tries to make good calls is often replaced with someone who can give the masses what they really want, ......folly!

agreed

I just read this whole thread from start to finish...and my only point I feel I need to make is this...for the 4th of July we had a family 'camp' out in our back fields...on monday the weather report for friday said scattered showers 70% wed said chance of showers 40% thursday night said early morning showers 20%...we ended up with a great day, slightly overcast but no rain. I was born and raised in Ohio about 20 miles from the town of Xenia (ask them about tornadoes) I have lived through my share of them. In our parts as I am sure is true in west Texas if a tornado siren goes off you are almost already too late. The point i am trying to make is that weather especially tornadoes are erratic at best. Often small rain clouds move in on sunny days to a devastating effect. I am sure these Scout leaders are stuck with enough guilt to last them their entire lives, they do not need us to sit here and tell them what they should or should not have done. Who is to say their actions didnt save the lives many more of these scouts. This is a tragic story, was it preventable....sure but then again what isnt?

The standard for emergency sirens for severe weather is when the weather reaches the "Warning" stage. "Watch" means conditions are favorable for the severe weather (tornado, thunderstorm, etc) to form or approach the area. "Warning" means the severe weather exists in the area - tornado funnel has been spotted (usually on the ground), severe thunderstorms exist in the area, hurricane force winds have been measured in the area, etc., or in short "you are in the thick of it! Take shelter immediately!"

Also, sirens are located only in urban areas, and not all urban areas in danger zones are equipped with sirens. In Mississippi, at least when I lived there, the sirens were only in the larger towns and cities. Small towns did not have them. The weather radio alarms do reach some smaller towns and rural areas, but the frequency is high enough that reception is strictly line of sight.

It seems like tv may have replaced radio or sirens as the most likely source of information for many people for weather warnings.

I lived in Wichita Fall, TX in the early 60's when a tornado hit the air base and the neighboring community. We lived pretty far away from the base-between 5-10 miles, I can't remember for sure, but we got plenty of rain and hail. The damage was considerable, but it killed only 7 people and injured a lot more. Given the damage I saw, that was a small number. Later on, in 1979, long after we had moved away, an even bigger one hit and killed 45 people.

I remember a siren test around noontime when I was a kid, my mom used to tell me "that means it's time for lunch", I'm still not sure what it was for.
About five yrs. ago I was working on a cabin close to the Santee Cooper Dam in St. Stephen SC. All of a sudden a super loud siren goes off for about 30 seconds, followed by a recording telling everyone in the flood plane to evacuate immediately.
"THERE HAS BEEN AN ACCIDENT AT THE SANTEE COOPER DAM, ALL PERSONS IN THE FLOOD PLANE MUST EVACUATE IMMEDIATELY!"
Over and over it repeated, but it only took one time for us "be prepared types" to fly into action.
Well, we did, we flew up the dirt road as fast as we could, taking out small bushes and trees, possibly a mailbox.
We did not want to drown in the flood!
We went to the fire station to see if they knew what had happened, along with a bunch of other people, some quite panicked.
Turns out it was a computer glitch that had triggered a false alarm. It's funny now, but we learned a lot about how dangerous evacs can be when people panic, it was almost like bumper cars.

Quote:

siren test around noontime when I was a kid, my mom used to tell me "that means it's time for lunch"

Most places with siren warning systems test them at noon on the first Saturday of the month. I have often wondered how they would handle things if it just so happened a tornado was spotted at that time. Someone once told me that they would shut the siren off and then restart it (that person was a neighbor with no connection with any emergency service, so I have doubts that this would be the procedure, but maybe so).

After reading and replying to this post I got up the next morning to head from dayton ohio to michigan city indiana. As I drove I noticed a quick moving storm system headed in with varying cloud levels. All I could think about was this post. I was in the middle of what seemed like 300 miles of corn with no overpass to crawl under or any other form of shelter. So I dug out my digital camera and thought well if a tornado is gonna touch down around me i better get a good picture of it for MTB...i would think that would prove my living through tornados...it ended up being just a quick shower...but it sure caused a white knuckle hour or so behind the wheel...

Hi turneej, You may have proved something even more important. No matter how prepared we are, or how vigilant, there is no way we can be 100% prepared 100% of the time.
To even try would consume our lives.
There is no excuse for not being reasonably prepared.
This may be the one instance in which I would agree with MTB416, since you are already in your car with no shelter, you may as well try driving to safety in an actual tornado.