Gear Made in the USA

As you all know most Tents, Packs and Bags are made oversea's. The question is this? Who would perfer gear made in the USA even if you were paying more for it?

Considering our current economic "situation", I would definitely prefer American made products. The problem is that it is neither now, nor has it ever been, merely a consumer decision. Offshore manufacture doesn't reduce the consumer cost of gear, it only serves to increase corporate profit by cutting labor (OUR jobs), and costs associated with environmental protection. Refer to: http://www.storyofstuff.com

I would pay more for US made, but only to a certain point. I try to find it whenever possible, but virtually all boots, tents, bags, etc are now made overseas.

The one major exception that I can think of right now is Western Mountaineering. They make some of the best down bags on the market, and remain competetive although they are in the very business-unfriendly location of San Jose, California. I have one of their bags, and it is definitely top notch.

I have lived in small towns most my life. And I will buy (if I can) in town. I have found that they will be willing to order it if they know that it is sold. It might cost alittle more. But they will do it over and over for you.

I'll look up Western Mountaineering, as I'm looking for a good bag!

Other choices are: Feathered Friends in Seattle and Wiggy's in Grand Junction for sleeping bags; Henry Shires Tarptents in Redwood City. Just search for American made sporting goods.

I agree that it has never been a consumer dicision to buy Asian made goods but at the end of the day the cosumer is the one buying the product, and can elect not to make the purchase. Its just like when people shop at Walmart. They dont want Walmart to sell Asian made goods but they are buying them not being educated enough to realize every purchase they make they are putting there livelyhoods on the line. And as long as we continue to make these bad decisions Corperations will continue to put profit in front of people and the country. The Story of Stuff is a good documentary. Everyone should not only watch it but they should do something about it.

Thanks abman47, havent been to walmart in 7 years

I generally look at site of manufacture when buying stuff, hoping to see "Made in U.S.A.", but settling for "Made in some country not likely to try to blow us up" in some cases, "Made in some country not likely to succeed in its effort to blow us up" in others, and so forth. And yes, I'm willing to spend a little extra to get "Made in the U.S.A." on the label--as long as the quality is top-notch. I will not spend extra money on American-made stuff that's crap. (Example: Most American cars of the '80s.)

Buying American-made goods can be quite difficult for some things. Take outdoor clothing, for instance. If it doesn't say "Made in China" on the tag, it's already in the minority. I'll try to gravitate to something not shipped out of Shanghai if I have a choice, but getting a good WP/B shell made in the U.S. seems almost impossible.

And it's important to remember that just because a company is headquartered in the U.S. doesn't mean their products are made in the U.S. Many top-quality companies started as small outfits with American-made products, but as they grow, they often outsource the increasingly large production lines to Asia, Latin America, or Eastern Europe.

I agree with Perry Clark,

I do business in my community whenever possible, I buy American when it makes sense. I will not buy American just to send my money to an American company that makes crap. Many larger American companies could compete in the global market, and produce quality products IF they did not feel entitled to line their pockets first and worry about quality and efficiency second.

In my opinion, most of the better outdoor adventure gear is made in Europe, where it seems craftsmanship still means something.

I say this as a small business owner myself. I specialize in fine carpentry for high end homes here on the east coast. Some of the best craftsmen & women I have worked around come from Europe. They have a "quality first" attitude, not a "lets see how fast we can get this done and doctor it up to make it look good so we can get paid" attitude. There are lots of good American craftsmen too, but way too many who are wood butchers & con artists.

I am a proud American, I do buy American, but somewhere along the way we have let the almighty dollar rule the roost, it is not just foreign competition that is to blame. My company, as small as it is, has more work than we can get to at a time when construction companies are failing left and right. We have work because we work smart & put both quality and customer service first, the bottom line will take care of itself if you do that.

I spend my money on quality, if you want my money, give me quality!

When did I mention Walmart? That was Lawson, aka Mountainfitter, with whom I agree. I have NEVER stepped foot in a Walmart.

I just know that no matter where you shop, it's extremely difficult to buy American made gear. For example, there were a number of years that the tags on Moss Tents said "Made in U.S.A. but the tents were actually made in China. I believe the tags were made in the U.S.A.

Anybody see the cars China previewed at the 2009 Detroit auto show? The company names are Changfeng and Geely. Consensus is 2 more years until these cars are sold here. The Chinese CEO that I saw being interviewed was very cagey about sticking to his story of having no interest in exporting cars to the U.S. "until they have satisfied the demand in China".

Well said Mike(trouthunter). I am lucky enough to be in a position where I am allowed the freedom to build a great product and take pride in my work.

Did you get my email re: a dependable pen? If not the reply is also at the end of the post "what is it?" discussing pole splints.

It was enjoyable in the '70's to read the literature of the many US gear companies sometimes still working out of garages like Snow Lion, Kelty, and Stephenson. The makers would wax poetic about number of stitches per inch, baffling techniques, lightness of ripstop used, etc.; thereby asking the customer to make their decisions based upon build quality. In Canada the gear makers were protected by high tariffs and accordingly produced junk at prices just below those of imported US goods. I always spent the extra money to buy the superior US made products.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't see much advertizing these days that speaks of build quality; it's always some "must have" new polymer or layers of polymers. It would seem that the makers have determined that Americans are more interested in novelty than quality, utility, and longevity in gear. Go figure.

abman47 said:

When did I mention Walmart? That was Lawson, aka Mountainfitter, with whom I agree. I have NEVER stepped foot in a Walmart.

This may have been in reference to the Story Of Stuff. In the video, a couple of companies are directly referenced, like Radio Shack and Wal*mart. Just a thought.

abman47, I will check my mail, I've been busy lately, thanks.

overmywaders, I totaly agree, "we" are too interested in novelty, flashy ads, fancy talk, etc. It would be nice if companies spent the money on quality vs. marketing, give more to the person making the product and a little less on marketing and retail packaging. Of course, companies spend the money on what works for them, too many people fall for the novelty/flashy ad. part.

I would also like to add that I do business with Patagonia, Columbia, Cabelas, Kelty, Coleman, etc. I think they have quality products.

Boots: Made in Italy, I just have not found an American Boot that meets my needs.

Wool: Italian Merino

Compass: Finland

Tea: U.K.

I have my eyes on a couple Canadian gear makers for some cold weather gear.

I believe in buying quality products first and foremost, and if you can get that from a Made in America company, all the better. But, we all know that can be tough.

Tom Mangan is currently writing a series of profiles for Trailspace on cottage gear makers. So far he's done Henry Shires of Tarptents and Brian Frankle of ULA-Equipment, with more to come.

While the profiles weren't intended as "Made in America" gear profiles, covering these small company inevitably focuses on some equipment that is made here. Those types of small, quality companies are out there, but you can't rely on them advertising and marketing to find them.

I've enjoyed the profiles, keep them coming. Cottage industries have always been harder to find, and in many cases they make the best gear. The internet certainly helps one search for them these days. One of the hardest parts of buying from them is not being able to see the product first. You generally have to buy via mail and deal with possibly returning the item if it's not what you want. Not a deal breaker, just a hassle.

This is one of those discussions with so many complexities that arriving at a consensus would be problematical at best. Anyone who thinks they are buying an American car, for example, cannot do so just based on name or even point of assembly. I can buy an American assembled Toyota, Nissan or Mercedes or a GM car or truck made in Canada, each of which will have a mix of domestic and foreign components.

American companies have shifted their parts sourcing and assembly offshore (including Canada and Mexico) for one reason-cost savings. Try to find a mass manufactured electronic device-TV, DVD player, etc. made in the US. Impossible. I have a cheap DVD player-it cost me $20 brand new. That is not a misprint - $20. Made in China, along with my pocket calculator that I paid $1 for at the 99 cent store. How can you sell a sophisticated electronic device for a buck? That includes designing it, tooling up to make the parts, making the parts, assembling it, putting a battery in it, packaging it, shipping it to the US, selling it to a store, presumably through a distributor and then offering it for retail in a store. What did it cost to make? Maybe fifty cents at most, most likely much less.

How can US manufacturers compete against that? I don't think they can or even want to try. The same applies to camping gear. Design it here, make it anywhere else, but here. Except for specialized cottage companies with low overhead, that is the norm.

First, I buy the best quality item for the price. I don't see any reason in supporting a company who makes crap just because of where they make it. trouthunter sounds like a person I would do business with and a respectable American.

Second, there is nothing wrong with earning a profit so lets not bash companies for doing so because I'm pretty sure even the small business owner likes to make a profit. Afterall, it is the job of the company is to get the greatest return for their shareholders. How many people out there do you know complain because they make too much money or have great benefits? I'll also bet the person taking your job isn't going to complain either. :)

For low value, disposable goods (most consumer electronics such as Tom's $20 DVD player) there is no point in attempting to compete with low wage countries. There is simply no way to win at that game. When you make and sell more exacting items, for example Western Mountaineering down bags, you can find a customer base willing to pay a premium for the added quality. The difference isn't that US workers sew better than workers around the world, it's more a matter of owners being present to watch the little details around the factory.

There are of course innumerable factors affecting pricing, location of production, etc.

That being put aside, I will go out on a limb and say that I do not agree with GrizzGuy's statement that "the job of the company is to get the greatest return for their shareholders". Before going further, let me make clear that this is a philosophical difference, not a factual one. There are of course lots and lots of companies run on that very principle, and that's what is preached by the denizens of Wall Street at every opportunity.

If/when I start a company, my goals are (at least) two-fold. One is of course to make enough money to support me and my family. But a second, and certainly not unimportant one (at least for me), is to run a company that treats employees, customers, etc. well and with respect, and by that I mean making as high-quality of a product as can reasonably be achieved, and seeking a fair--not necessarily highest--price for it.

The argument is already being made, by some reading this, that these behaviors are exactly those that a well-run company will pursue anyway, since they increase brand loyalty, ensure long-term profits, etc. But the key in that thinking is the phrase "long-term". Far too many companies are run with an eye to short-term profits, which can often be enhanced by cutting corners, limiting quality to what is perceived as good (or good enough), and doing what one can to reduce costs (even by reducing service to the customer). The result is that many well-run companies are taken over by people with an eye toward short-term maximization of profits, so as to enhance their bonuses, golden parachutes, and the like.

I probally didnt word my question right. I should of said assuming the quality is the same. I agree, no one wants to support a company making crap even if there products are made in the USA. The only one who supports that way of thinking is Big Government and Big Business.

I have always paid more for anything made in the USA. For me its less of an economy thing and more of a labor rights and a pollution thing.

Ah,...I see, and agree with your concerns. Those things bother me as well. And so the plot thickens. Let's not get me started on Communism and oppression of the working class. That requires a different type of website.

In the early days I used Coleman gear, it was affordable and fairly reliable but not top notch or lightweight. Of course I did not know that then. Just being out there was all I really needed!

Perry Clark, I don't want to get into an economic discussion in an outdoor forum but publicly held companies have a fiduciary responsibility to earn the best return for the investors dollar. Not something that is "preached" but rather something that is required by investors. Also, don't misread my statement. I was merely defending the right of a company to earn a profit and not be demonized for doing so. If and when you start your small privately held company you are free (for the most part) to run it how you want without someone else determining how much is enough for you to make in profits. Finally, I'm not defending upper managment pay/bonus packages. That's a different discussion and something determined by the board of directors but that's also where consumers come into play. If you don't like it, don't shop there and instead visit trouthunter and give him your money.

Now, back to the question. If quality is equal then I choose American unless they have their hand in the bailout jar.

Grizz--

I apologize if I offended you. I meant only to respectfully disagree with your statement as a matter of, as I said, philosophy, not fact. I am well aware of the fiduciary responsibility you describe, though such leaves a tremendous amout of room to maneuver regarding what that means--in other words, over what time frame, with what company goals in terms of "product", and so forth. Interpretations of such are generally left to the board of directors; when it does get to the courts, it's usually a very broadly liberal interpretation of same. If it's easier to make a profit selling small, cheap cars, is an automaker required because of its fiduciary responsibility to shareholders to make small, cheap cars instead of luxury vehicles, pickups, or what have you? May profit margin be modestly reduced in the name of quality? The answers to both are of course obvious. Lastly, how does this near-sacred fiduciary responsibility to maximize profits for shareholders square with exorbitant pay packages, etc.? Granted, some of the more egregious ones are challenged on such a basis, but usually when the company is doing quite poorly on the whole. Often the contention is made that the reason the company is doing so poorly is because of mismanagement, but the vagaries of the marketplace certainly have their say as well.

Also, please note that I didn't deny the "right of a company to earn a profit". I did say that Wall Street "preaches" about maximizing profits--and that's true. The fact that at the same time it's "required" by investors doesn't mean that the analysts and talking heads can't preach about it, too.

Finally, may I respectfully submit that any discussion of whether one has a preference for "Made in America" products is inherently economic? Any decision about how, when, where, and why one spends money is an economic decision, I believe. In that light, I shan't apologize for making comment on economic matters. If the question as put originally, with all its economic and political implications, is appropriate for the forum, reasonable answers are as well, it would seem.

Perry Clark - I'm not offended and you don't need to apoligize to me. I didn't intend to come off that way so it is I would need to apologize if I did. Like I said earlier I really don't want to sit here and debate economics so I'm just going to clear a couple of things and be done. First simply making a cheap car now in return for short term gains isn't really in the best interest of the company or it's investors. You may make a profit now but in the long run the company will suffer. As an investor I would vote for a board of directors to correct that line of thinking or sell my interest in the company. Second I didn't say that exorbitant pay packages squared with fiduciary responsibility. I actually stated that I'm not defending pay/bonus packages. The argument can be made that large pay is there to retain good management but I personally don't think you need much pay to keep good management. I also understand that Wall Street "preaches" maximizing profits but that's because investors require them to. I read your original statement "There are of course lots and lots of companies run on that very principle, and that's what is preached by the denizens of Wall Street at every opportunity." to mean that they preach but don't execute their business plan in that manner. With that said this is nothing more than a discussion of minor details and the clarifying of such.

I like the outdoors because it gets me away from all of the discussions on the state of the economy, so lets get back to those discussions. :)

Grizz--

'Nuff said. I think we share an understanding of things, with the difference, if there is one, being merely one how each of us as individuals look at the grimy little details. As is too often the case, between and among those with knowledge of things, it's the details that serve as burrs under the saddles. In fact, Adam Smith spent a not inconsiderable amount of effort in Wealth of Nations discussing this very bit. But, enough, I agree.

So, that said, on to the great outdoors!

Exactly, plus debating the minor details over a case of beer is more fun than debating them here.

Let's keep this on topic and rememember to be civil. This has strayed a bit far into the politics, when the original question was (with a slight spelling correction)

Who would prefer gear made in the USA even if you were paying more for it?

My only comment on the question is this - the rules for attaching a "Made in USA" label are pretty loose. Even the rules for "Fabrique en France" have loopholes, given that the French are proudly very chauvinistic (Chauvin in fact was French) to the point of requiring all words in official documents be French, well, as much as possible. If you look closely, very few products are 100% made in the nominal country of origin. In outdoor gear, Feathered Friends (based in Seattle) and Western Mountaineering (based just down the road from me in San Jose) have their workshops in those cities and do all their "final assembly" there. But both use imported down (there are no US producers of goose down), though both do their sorting and cleansing of the down at their facilities. Both use fabrics woven in other countries.

Recognizing that fact, I prefer to buy goods that have as close ties to the US as possible, because (a) the company employs American workers and (b) I have someone close at hand to go back to if there are problems (which also means I will buy from a company whose tech reps on the phone are in the US rather than in Bengladesh ... although ... the tech reps in Olathe, Kansas, are less than useful). Plus, I prefer to buy from as local companies as possible (meaning small specialty shops, locally grown food products, and local factories - because they employ my neighbors and tend to give me better service).

The primary criteria still are suitability for the purpose and quality of the product (which includes safety and dependability).

Some years back I can recall Diamond Brand used to manufacturer certain of their tents in their (then) Naples N.C factory. I did own one of those tents myself. I picked mine up for $75.00 from Diamond Brand. It was the Diamond Brand Plateau 2-Person model.

Now that this thread has gone where I though it might go, and back. Would you buy your gear from the ma and pa shop down the street, knowing it is costing a bit more than a large store? Or will you save a buck?

mikemorrow said:

Would you buy your gear from the ma and pa shop down the street, knowing it is costing a bit more than a large store? Or will you save a buck?

That is always my first choice (actually for the outdoor gear, it is a "dirtbag climber's shop). Unfortunately over the years, we have gotten down to 2 real gear shops in the SFBay Area (one, Sunrise Mountaineering, has 2 locations, but Kim and his brother are going to close one as soon as they can get out of their lease). There are 10 REIs in the area and a bunch of Any Mountains (mostly a ski store in winter and car camping in summer). Since real estate (leases and rentals for stores) is so expensive in this area, it is almost impossible for the small shops to compete, even though they serve a niche that the REIs of the world do not cover. There are a couple shops across the Santa Cruz Mountains in Santa Cruz and Monterey, but that's a miserable drive on Hwy 17 (narrow, winding, jammed with traffic, and when the frequent accidents happen, the road gets blocked for hours, usually in a location where you can't get to the tiny back roads to get around the mess, even when you are as familiar with them as I am).

When I give the climbing, backpacking, and winter camping workshops, I always send my students to Sunrise and Marmot (Marmot has only 2 stores anymore, one in Berkeley, the other in the Seattle area). You want knowledgable advice? Then support the local shop.

There are a few shops along the routes to the California climbing and backpacking areas. From here, I pass shops in Sacramento, Truckee, a couple around Lake Tahoe, Yosemite Valley (good shop run by Yosemite Climbing School that has good backpacking gear as well), and several good "East Side" shops (in Bishop, Big Pine, and Lone Pine). But these are not convenient for the quick trip for something needed right away.

I would do business in my own town / county / state etc. given I could receive quality gear, and good service, even if it cost a little more. I support cottage industry, most do try really hard to earn your business, I've found.

Small local store any day of the week. Though I have purchased gear at big box stores, I perfer small stores with good customer service that have knowledgeable staff.

mikemorrow said:

Would you buy your gear from the ma and pa shop down the street, knowing it is costing a bit more than a large store? Or will you save a buck?

Absolutely I'd buy from the small specialty retailer, and I do whenever possible. I've even used it as an excuse to make trips to Acadia several hours away, just so I could try on Osprey packs at a nearby outfitter.

You may pay a little more versus online, but it's definitely worth it for the knowledge and chance to try on certain items.

A friend of ours used to own two regular and one seasonal specialty outdoor stores in our area, but he went out of business years ago (now he does carpentry work). There was a small EMS in Augusta, about 20 minutes away. It was far from great, but at least it existed, until it went out of business in January.

So, now the closest thing we have is a Dicks Sporting Goods (no thanks), then a very good ski/fly fishing shop (mentioned in the blogs below), and LL Bean in Freeport (less than an hour). There are a few other small ski and bike places too, but not a lot for the strictly backcountry set.

In addition to the gear at the store, I really like finding a store that has real, actual outdoors people running it. It makes for an enjoyable experience and it's nice to meet others with the same interests, who may have experience to lend you.

I won't repeat my blogs on this subject, but here are the links:

http://www.trailspace.com/blog/2008/12/15/in-praise-of-specialty-outdoor-stores.html

http://www.trailspace.com/blog/2009/01/07/recommend-your-favorite-outdoor-store-to-others.html

Note to all--

This sort of topic is inherently political. Please excuse comments that may go a bit further than one might like, while recognizing that it is impossible to discuss such issues as whether to buy locally and/or from native companies without being political/economic in nature. For instance--Bill S' post above, wherein he asks that we "remain on topic and be civil", then proceeds to spend the next two paragraphs on economic and political matters, in their purest senses. It's failure to understand such that breeds ignorance of and fosters blindness to how individual decisions and practices merge together to make a society what it is.

As for being civil, I believe that, given the lack of interpersonal familiarity and the obvious limits of something like this, things have remained quite civil. Any time personal habits or beliefs are contested, there occurs the risk of undesired conflict. Civility does not consist of the absence of such situations, but rather their proper management when they do arise. Such is the real test of one's manners.

Now, on to the more particular question at hand--yes, I'll pay a bit more for the privilege and pluses of "buying locally"--even for those goods and services for which custsomer service, advice, etc. is generally not likely to be needed. I like my community to be as self-sufficient as possible.

It is very simple. American corporations are over-taxed. We are one of the few, if not the only, major country in the world to double tax our corporations for their earnings in other countries, not to mention the high % in the first place. So it makes perfect sense to move overseas, both in manufacturering and headquarters. Americans are overtaxed and so are American corporations, the latter being the more extreme of the two (if you don't count the >250,000 bracket, which is now around 40%). The government of the U.S. makes corporations here pay ridiculous overhead. Occam's razor.

Perry,

There are two ways to answer the original question - a simple yes or no, or a yes or no with explanation. The explanation inevitably involve an economic and/or political reason(s), and/or a reason involving availability and quality of support. It is possible (and desirable) to discuss the local shop and local manufacturer question completely without injecting politics. Trailspace is an "outdoor" website, and the original question and the followup question both involved outdoor products. Thus, discussion of Wall Street, overpaid Boards of Directors, profits reasonable or rapacious, cars made in China or assembled in the US of components made in other countries and continents, TV sets, rates of taxation, and other topics that started appearing in posts are off-topic, both for the initial question and for Trailspace. The economic impact on local mom-and-pop shops and companies originating and doing most of their business selling and producing outdoor gear in the US is on topic. It is also very much on topic to comment on the actual meaning of the "Made in XYZ" label, as made indirectly by abman and directly by me.

My request to stay on topic meant, please stick with outdoor companies, dealers, and products (cars and TVs are not backpacking or climbing products). My comment about civility was prompted by several posters who felt they had to start apologizing to one another - it should not have gotten that far, and did so because of the exchanges straying far away from the outdoors topics into topics that frequently degenerate into flame wars on internet sites (see Supertopo for lots of examples of this).

For me considering that most of the companies that I use like North facem marmot, Golite and Patagonia offer such good lifetime warrenties, I don't mind the gear being made in other countries. But perhaps I would feel better if I knew the countries that the companies use don't employ children or badly paid employees.

The biggest problem for me is that the Mega Marts have wiped out the small guy.

I live on the Oregon coast. Back in the 60's there were 3-4 stores that sold camping gear. Walmart moved in 25 miles away. There are no camping gear stores now for 70 miles! Its sad.

Bill--

I'm sorry, but I have to differ on at least a couple of points. Firstly, to criticize as "off topic" mention of non-outdoor products seems not to recognize the use, utility, and/or applicability of analogy. Often, because of connotation, familiarity, or other reasons, analogy with use of seemingly non-relevant items serves well to make a point or provide illustration.

Next I will mention that I do not agree that it is possible to discuss a preference for patronage of local businesses--or a lack of such preference--without consideration of politics. Unless, that is, the discussion is restricted solely to such things as the lovely decor or whatnot. Even points about customer service, advice and expertise, etc., are themselves, properly considered, matters of both economics and politics, when looked at from a large-scale perspective. And whilst it is useful to consider the small scale and personal, it is by no means unhelpful or "off-topic" to consider larger issues. I see nothing in the original post which suggests comment only if the post will be restricted to effects on the individual alone. Immediately above this, as I write, I can read of the lament of someone who misses "the small guy" because the "Mega Marts" moved in. As Tip O'Neill would here have reminded us, "All politics is local." To this I would add that politics that starts local often becomes universal. Witness, for example, the desire of another poster to "feel better if [he] knew the countries that the companies use don't employ children or badly paid employees." As I stated above, I believe this sort of thing to be inherently political. If one doesn't wish to read it, then one shouldn't. But to wish it wholly non-political is to wish the wet out of water, I fear.

Finally, let me say that just because I apologized to GrizzGuy doesn't necessarily mean that things had become uncivil; I offered it recognizing that it was possible that I had phrased things poorly or unintentionally offered offense, etc. Even in the most proper society, such things sometimes occur, and a prompt apology for even a small, unintended slight or sin may go some way to preventing unnecessary deterioration in relations. I cannot agree that the mere presence of an apology indicates "that things should not have gotten that far". In fact, I would go so far as to say that it sometimes indicates a healthy respect for one's conversational partners and a sincere desire both to engage in meaningful conversation and quickly smooth ruffled feathers when they arise--as they surely often do in the midst of serious conversation. One may even consider the unwillingness to converse seriously with another, and thus run the risk of misunderstanding or unintended offense, as indicative of dismissal or disrespect.

This is an internet forum, and while the topics may generally be centered on hiking, camping, backpacking, etc., I think it's fair to treat the conversation much as one would the same topic 'round a campfire. Those that wish to listen and/or participate can do so, and those that wish to find other things to do can do so as well.

"This is an internet forum, and while the topics may generally be centered on hiking, camping, backpacking, etc., I think it's fair to treat the conversation much as one would the same topic 'round a campfire. Those that wish to listen and/or participate can do so, and those that wish to find other things to do can do so as well."

As one of the culprits who strayed afar from the topic of gear with my example, I have to disagree with Perry and side with Bill. I should have stuck closer to the question with a more relevant example. Unlike a campfire, the website and forums have a particular focus and purpose rather than just encouraging a generalized conversation.

There are plenty of places for a wide-ranging discussion of trade policies, tax policies and personal preferences. I see Bill's point that Trailspace may not be that place or at least this particular forum may not be the place. Discussions like this are one reason sites may have an off-topic forum, where politics and otherwise non site-specific topics can be discussed. We have one, but no one has moved the thread yet, which may be the thing to do.

When I want to talk politics I go to a political forum.

When I what to talk camping/backpacking I come here.

I have to side with Bill on this one.

... just because I apologized... doesn't necessarily mean that things had become uncivil

There's nothing wrong with a little civil disagreement, but lets take a tip from a 70's slogan - "Civil means never having to say you're sorry." ...Or was that "Love"?...either way, it's good advice.

Thought for the day: Civil War is an oxymoron

IMO this thread hadn't gotten REAL nasty, but from my years of experience with multiple forums, it had the potential. Discussions on volatile topics always have that capability. Thanks to everyone for checking your weapons at the computer room door.

All I can offer is that Perry and I were merely debating minor points and the apologies, like Perry said were merely to smooth any ruffled feathers if there were any. From my point there were not but as with emails things you type may come across differently as you do not have a personal interation with others you are discussing topics with.

This isn't the first string in this forum that has had this issue. Bill, I'm not taking a shot at you but merely offering an example of a string where you were debating minor points of water purification with another individual (someone who worked for Katadyn) that to me had some harsh tones toward each other. It happens but not letting it go to far is a perfect example of our civility.

http://www.trailspace.com/forums/comments/topics/48858.html

Here is the link I was referring to incase no one knows what I'm referring to.

Seems to be a situation where everyone needs to quit while they are behind.

The final comments I'll make here:

While the original post mentioned "Tents, Packs, and Bags", the actual question posited is, in principle, no more limited to down jackets than to suit jackets. Thus, the topic itself is only marginallly outdoor-related. As such, intelligent discussion of the pertinent questions will likely bring into play considerations of principles of economics and politics that are relevant.

Mention is again made of the idea of restricting political discussion to political forums. With such a suggestion in mind, is it impolite to suggest that those who would wish such risk finding their sensibilities offended when they undertake to read a thread started with a question so obviously likely to engender the sort of of commentary they don't wish to read? Had I not been willing or wanting to read and consider such, I would simply have skipped the thread. Nothing here is mandatory reading, gentlemen.

Tom states the following:

There are plenty of places for a wide-ranging discussion of trade policies, tax policies and personal preferences. I see Bill's point that Trailspace may not be that place or at least this particular forum may not be the place.

Upon considering that, Tom, I agree that this isn't a "Backcountry" topic or issue, but we found the original post where it was, and it's not been moved. (Aside: I don't know who does it or how such happens, I've always assumed it's up to administrators to do so.) That said, however, if the original post is the one that determines the topic of a particular thread, let's look at the original post.

The question is this? Who would perfer gear made in the USA even if you were paying more for it?

As I said above, it seems that there is nothing inherently "outdoorsy" about the question except for the forum on which it's found. That being the case, perhaps the thread itself should promptly have been moved to the "Off-Topic" area; in fact, I was and remain a bit surprised that it wasn't. But, as sometimes happens around the campfire I mentioned, I'm occasionally surprised by where I find, see, or hear things. I'm not one of those who automatically goes off to my tent when the conversation turns political, religious, or what have you. I make my decision based on whether I'm interested in hearing what the others present have to say, how they say it, and so forth, and perhaps in putting forward my own thoughts for comment.

I cannot imagine that the original poster set down the query without expecting it to generate discussion that would occasionally see conflict of opinion, etc. It's not mere conflict of opinion that is the problem--it's how and whether said conflict generates light as much as heat. I learned something from GrizzGuy, and have the temerity to hope that perhaps he, or someone else, learned something from my comments.

Finally, a response to the idea that "Civil means never having to say you're sorry." A more commonly quoted slogan is "Love means never having to say you're sorry." Neither, in my experience, is remotely true. I've been married for twenty years, and have two kids. We wouldn't have gotten this far, and lasted this long, without occasionally having to apologize to each other. Saying "I'm sorry" is a clear mechanism for showing repentance, and at least hints at the desire for forgiveness. A civil world demands the existence of such mechanisms, I believe, since none of us are capable of gliding through life while never giving offense.

This whole thing seems to have become a tempest in a teapot, and I'm not sure why, exactly. I suspect that the reasons may lie in strong feelings and closely held thoughts and beliefs that we all bring along with us, to the outdoors and even to the internet. I fervently and deeply believe in the right to freely speak one's mind, with limits. The limits I see to such may not be the same as those others would set, and that may be the entire crux of the matter. But this isn't a theater in which someone yelled "Fire!"

FYI, you've probably already noticed, but this thread has been moved to Off-Topic.

It is also still unlocked and open for civil comments, but please consider whether or not you have something of value to add before posting.

Thanks to everyone who has kept, what has turned into a hot topic, civil thus far.

All I can say is that I do wish sincerely Diamond Brand was still manufacturing gear for the general public in their North Carolina factory.

Now they are providing the US Military with those two-man combat tents, but absolutely nothing for the public at large (are those tears???).

I miss their brand gear.

I know also SunnyRec makes all their self-inflating mats here in the United States.

http://sunnyreccorp.com/pages/2/index.htm

Love their Hexagrip model mats I might add.

Equinox Ltd. in Williamsport PA is a cut and sew shop that makes everything in the USA. Distributed by Liberty Mountain and sold in many places. Campmor has a very large selection of their stuff.

cheers,

thetentman

tentman,

I have a fair amount of Campmor-labelled stuff (used the various weight longjohns on Denali, for example, though I have found that my Patagonia Capilene is superior for most of my expedition usage), and have been curious who you use as the manufacturer. I do note that the amount of store-label stuff has diminished, though.

I also would note that, as a former Scoutmaster, I really appreciate the discount you give for scout troop purchases (we got a bunch of Eureka Timberlines and replaced a couple a year, thanks to the tender ministrations of some of the more exuberant youth).

Reading this has been really interesting. I have been involved in the outdoor business for a very long time (my first job was with Kelty Pack in the 60's). I started a company in the 70's (Wilderness Experience) and we made everything, packs, tents, sleeping bags and apparel in California. I wanted to keep making everything we could in the USA, but the higher quality at affordable prices forced us and most other manufacturers to manufacture in Asia.

Since then I have worked with many manufacturers in China and Viet Nam and the quality of workmanship is higher than anything we were able to do in the USA. (I was President of JanSport, Eastpak and Kipling, International until 2006.)

A couple of comments on things said in this thread:

1. For every outdoor company I know, their commitment to fair employee practices and good working conditions in the factories they use in Asia is of the highest standard.

2. Someone talked about the high quality of product from Europe. The European Union does not require country of origin to be on the product. Most, if not all, European outdoor brands are made in Asia or the eastern countries outside the EU.

3. Small retail stores have been replaced by the large chains. I have owned 4 different small outdoor speciality stores and I think it is a loss that so many have gone out of business. But consumers have voted with their money to shop at the large chains...and often it is the right decision with large selections and better prices.

4. And finally (and this is probably not a popular view) after working for more than 25 years with Asian manufacturers, getting to know the owners, the managers and some employees it does not bother me that some of my recent full retail price purchase at REI went to them. They are good hardworking people and also deserve to make a living.

And thank you for a very interesting discussion.

Jim Thomsen

Jim brings up a good point, at a given price point, the quality of goods made in SE Asia is very high. Some smaller scale, cottage brands may make higher quality products, but the vast majority of users would never know the difference. I do like to buy from smaller, especially local sources when possible, but I'm more interested in good design than the location of manufacture. No matter how well something is made, if the design is crap the item doesn't work well.

Alicia,

You should interview Rob Cross at Equinox. They make all their stuff in PA. He is a smart funny guy and works hard to keep making stuff in the USA.

cheers,

thetentman

Thanks for the suggestion, thetentman. I appreciate it and will add it to my list of gear profiles.

If anyone else has suggestions of interesting/local/cottage/niche gear makers you think are worthy of a Trailspace profile, please feel free to suggest them.

The REI web page can readily be searched for "Made in USA" by category to satisfy some of the curiousity about what is made in the US nowadays. Most other websites do not give very reliable results with such a search. Gear can then be sorted by rating or popularity with comments by users. Notables: Gregory Denali backpack has a perfect rating and is popular; Cascade sleeping pads of various designs; lots of good socks; water bottles; only a few shirts and pants. Prices seem higher but satisfaction ratings are generally good for US goods. Equinox is an exception to the rule of needing to search because they are all US-made and prices are reasonable. Probably few materials from any one country as the world gets smaller. It would be difficult to put together a good complete outfit from the US alone, especially without mail order. Nice to have lots of variety though.