Litter.....Why is pack it in, pack it out so hard for some people?

I was out at my local lake today just looking around, I often go camping on the Islands they have there. It is just like being on your own tropical island, I love it.

But the amount of litter present was so sad!

In just a few minutes I saw:

Parts of styrofoam coolers, plastic grocery sacks galore, cans & bottles, fishing gear, old life jackets, propane cylinders, empty charcoal bags, etc.

This was in the parking and boat ramp area, front country if you will. On the Island which I would consider backcounty, it was almost as bad. Access to the islands is easy by boat, and I guess that's part of the problem. I grow weary of hauling OPT (other peoples trash) off the island, but it needs to be done.

The state has provided trash cans in numerous places, and has a vigorous anti litter campaign with several signs almost begging people to 'Pack it in and pack it out'. There are fines for littering of course, but the manpower to enforce the law seems to be nonexistant here.

Oh did I mention there was broken glass all over the place? In a place where you know people are going barefoot, what gives??

Something besides talking about the problem needs to be done! I don't think hiring people to constantly clean up the mess is the answer, I would like to see the mess prevented, of course.

I know we all want to go out and have some carefree fun every once in a while, gee, that's why I go out there. But there needs to be some accountability with regards to litter.

Anyway.....how is law enforcement in your neck of the woods in recreational places like this? Are you seeing the same problems?

When I was hiking and camping in New Zealand, I rarely saw trash on the trails or outside the huts. It is a matter of education and having pride in your country. Kiwis who go camping and hiking, which is a fair number of them, seem to respect their land a lot more than Americans. Here, people think nothing of littering, no matter where they are; they just don't care.

This is what is called "the tragedy of the commons," the theory that common space will be always be ruined because people don't feel any ownership interest in it and assume that someone else will care for it.

Yosemite has a LNT policy in the backcountry and in winter, I carry out everything I carry in and I mean "everything" except water. Doing so is inconvenient, to say the least, but necessary.

I'm sorry to hear your area was trashed like that, trouthunter. I wish I had an answer for you. It stinks to see people have total disregard for the land and others.

It seems to me that in general the farther you get away from "civilization" and easy access to certain spots, the less likely you are to see areas trashed. While this shouldn't happen in the first place, I think your efforts to clean up the area are important, because people seem less likely to trash a clean spot, but once a spot gets degraded many don't think it matters if they add more litter/junk to the same spot. It's about the precedent set, so hopefully those who choose a LNT precedent have a positive effect.

I recall learning once that some more urban parks and sites choose not to put in trash cans, because it ironically detracts from keeping an area clean. If there's no trash can to leave your stuff in, you have to take your stuff with you (or choose to put it on the ground). But if there's a trash can you might feel it's okay to add to the pile of litter next to the overflowing garbage, because "someone else" will take care of it. I wish I could find a reference to this.

Anyway, you shouldn't have to deal with this, but your efforts don't go unnoticed by others who care. Hopefully your pride in the area will rub off on others.

Fines? Anyone ever known someone who got a "fine" for littering? There are $300 littering fine signs all over PA, but I've never heard of anyone getting cited. I asked a police officer about it one day..."I'd have to see them do it" was his answer. Pft! It's a joke.

Maybe when the USA is 2000 years old, it's people will have pride in the land we share.

trouthunter said:

......Anyway.....how is law enforcement in your neck of the woods in recreational places like this? Are you seeing the same problems?

Here in NY non existent the other day I was hiking near the ADK at a state forest and low and behold I came across a 18 pack beer carton about 4.5 miles from any road access or any thing other than foot travel. Also periodically I would come a cross a empty beer can as well.

I myself don't see the big deal you carried it in then carry it out hay the cans are empty so there a lot lighter and compact able (just crush them with your foot) and the carton is cardboard BURN IT STUPID.

I am as well sick and tired of going to my favorite spots only to find the trashed by pigs, slobs, scumbags etc. PICK UP YOUR S**T. I wish I could see someone in the act of desecrating our land with ignorance and trash, one way or another they would clean up there mess.

Sorry for the venting rant.

I as well have cleaned up picked up OPT I don't like it but I do it too. I mean come on If I wanted to clean on my free time I would just stay home and clean my own stuff. Ok we all have accidentally dropped or lost something it happens but an entire trash bag full? Here in NY most all of the state parks opened late and will close early and some will not open at all due to budget cuts, funding bla bla bla. When I was a kid in boy scouts we did 50% of our hiking, camping, backpacking & canoeing in the ADK and on all of our trips to the best of my memory there was never a trip less than 5 days that we didn't run into a forest ranger. Now its a pain in the butt to get in-touch with one on the phone not to mention seeing one in the woods. There areas for each ranger to take care of are getting larger and larger and things are beeing taken care of & overseen less and less.

You all raise valid points.

Keeping these areas clean is a matter of personal responsibility. If a law has to be enforced, or a fine issued (yeah, it's rare) then we have already failed in a sense. I was taught by my parents to clean up after myself, and it was mandatory.

I think a lot of Americans have grown apathetic and lazy, pride and patriotism seems to have gone out the window in some circles. I mean the actual spirit of patriotism, the kind that means something. The kind that makes you want to help others or pack out your trash.

This is one of the reasons I like the Boy Scouts, and other similar groups. Not only are they taught how to build a fire, but also how to be a productive contributing citizen that can help build a community.

trouthunter said:

You all raise valid points.

Keeping these areas clean is a matter of personal responsibility. If a law has to be enforced, or a fine issued (yeah, it's rare) then we have already failed in a sense. I was taught by my parents to clean up after myself, and it was mandatory.

I think a lot of Americans have grown apathetic and lazy, pride and patriotism seems to have gone out the window in some circles. I mean the actual spirit of patriotism, the kind that means something. The kind that makes you want to help others or pack out your trash.

This is one of the reasons I like the Boy Scouts, and other similar groups. Not only are they taught how to build a fire, but also how to be a productive contributing citizen that can help build a community.

I agree 150% a lot of people today are not taught or shown that crucial moral fibers. Take pride in what you have, where you are, what you do etc. Just like the Scout Law - A Scout is Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, Clean, and Reverent.

The boy Scouts were started in Great Britain, not the US. That just goes along with what Trout said.

Next time carry many garbage bags with you. Pick it all up and pill it in the highly traveled area. I did this in a area of a beach I go to. Almost blocked off the area. It works.

The garbage is awful, but what gets me is the nails in trees. I camp in Uhwarrie on Badin Lake sometimes and the amount old garbage in the coves is sickening. I live in a tourist town and we have beach and river sweeps to keep things under control.

I couldn't imagine living tourist town in this day in age with the way people are.

I remember years ago in 1983 when I first lived in Tucson. I went hiking to a place called Seven Falls. On the way there were tons of students carrying huge coolers of beer and/or soda into the falls area. When I got to the falls area I noticed one pool was not being used and thought "Cool, I can have it all to myself" But when I got into the water I found out why, the bottom was covered with old bottles, cans and other debri. Later that fall when the falls had all but dried up the swimming holes all showed their waste on the bottom. I must have later bagged up 10 garbage bags of glass, aluminum, plastic and soggy paper items. I left the bags and told the Sabino Tourist Desk about it, a weekend later and it had all been taken out. But by the following fall when I returned there was as much trash as before.

Years later the area was banned from having any glass or cans taken in. And it was common to see "ranger volunteers" on the trails handing out tickets and turning back people who tried to carry any containers other than water bottles in to the backcountry.

It really dose stink when we the many have to suffer for the consequences for the few. Think about it ill bet for the most part of people that travel the trails & backcountry leave no or little to no trace that they were there. But the few slobs that are most likely repeated slobs rune it for most of us. Here in NY when there is a major problem with vandalism of any type on state land the state just closes that area down so then everyone looses.

mike068 said:

I couldn't imagine living tourist town in this day in age with the way people are.

Jim Thorpe, PA is the next town over. MTB and hiking trails are loaded w/ bottles, diapers, and everything else you can imagine. - Not only from the Tourists, but the locals too. Sad.

I wonder if part of the issue is that there are so many factors that promote a "convenience" or "disposable" lifestyle, where people aren't taught to (or don't take the time) think through the consequences of there actions. Fast food and tv dinner's have replaced home cooked meals. Sitcoms have replaced reading books, etc, etc ... It seems that many people don't see any difference between going out on a trail and going to an amusement park, where it is somebody else's responsibility to clean up after their mess.

I think there is a positive feedback loop -- once one person starts leaving trash more people follow suit. That's why it's always worth while to pitch and clean up if you have time.

Our house back in Vermont is directly across the road from a "world-class swimming hole" -- a gorge with a deep green pool, high jump, and probably the best natural jacuzzi I have seen anywhere. By default, were were the stewards of the place, constantly picking up after the rowdy minority that left bottle, cigarette butts (yuck) and other stuff around. We still have quite a collection of "beach towels" from those days. Anyway, usually after we cleaned up it would be a while before stuff started accumulating again, and I think if it was mostly clean other visitors were more inclined to pick up after the slobs.

And then there were the drummers in the night. But that's another story.

It's quite odd, isn't it? Out here in Oregon people tend to trash the shores of lakes and some traditional near-road campsites. You'd think that people out to enjoy natural surroundings would want to keep them natural...

In the designated wilderness areas it's much, much better; I seldom see any trash. Years of wilderness-guide "leave nothing but footprints" indoctrination is partly to credit, I suppose. But the indoctrination wouldn't work if it didn't make aesthetic sense.

I find myself feeling a bit elitist: there are ignorant boobs who leave campsites full of shot-up beer cans, Wonder-bread wrappers, and half-eaten MREs; and us enlightened hikers who tuck our used dental floss carefully into Ziplocks and take care not to step on the alpine lilies.

But IS it elitist to think that way?

OEJ,

Not elitist at all, I don't think.

Some people have the wisdom to contribute to the community in various ways, and others detract from it. Just a fact.

Sometimes you have to be an LNT thumper. They won't like it, but if you do it in a kind way, maybe they will catch on.

I've just never understood the litterbug mindset.

Education as a lot to do with it. I've had to turn back and return to town on a hike because my non-hiking friends were throwing their cigarette butts in the bush. They just didn't see any reason to pick them up! Everybody does it in the city anyway becasue someone else will pick it up later. So i turned back and them too since they needed me to guide them safely. Too bad.

It occurs to me that litter is just another symptom of the gradual erosion of our society. It isn't completely hopeless, because there are still people like ourselves, who respect our natural heritage and are willing(grudgingly) to clean up OPT as part of our stewardship. The answer doesn't lie in Washington or our State Capitols, where our legislators busily(?) write and enact new laws, often with no consideration of funding for enforcement of those laws; I believe that respect and consideration are(or should be) some of the real "family values" we hear so much about. Think of where you folks were taught to love and respect nature. I learned from my Dad; instead of just yelling, "pick that up", he would patiently explain what the effects of leaving a tangle of fishing line(for example) would be. I learned by following his example, picking up and packing out OPT because it's the right thing to do. I have done my best to show my sons that it's their responsibility to care for our environment...

It isn't solely up to our schools to socialize our children, or up to Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, or others(insert name of youth group here), to instill knowledge and respect of our world and its' natural resources.

abman47,

I agree completely, until we get back to raising our children up to be good decent, caring, & responsible people, things will only continue to degrade. The ever growing increase in laws and law enforcement is just a symptom of the problem.

Anybody remember the "Don't Be a Litterbug" campaign? I think it was hugely successful in changing public attitude about throwing stuff out the window, and just in a few years. And I think the amount of trash in the backcountry and left in shelters and huts has also decreased a lot in my years as a hiker, even if there are still a minority who leave a mess. I bet you for every one of us who learned social responsibility from a parent, there's at least one other who came to it by a different route, i.e. from a mentor or maybe just observing and thinking it through for themselves. People can change and they do respond to public advertising campaigns (i.e. smoking) but it takes time and patience and it will never be perfect.

Teach peole young is the answer one of my proudest moments as a father was watching my son -then aged 9- pick up a energy bar wrapper we had just seen a guy on a very expensive MTB throw on the ground( in a national park) and hand it back to him saying "this is yours pal take it with you....thanks"-later on the same walk both he and his little brother cleaned up beer bottle glass from the bottom of a water fall and carried it home- of course I had encourage them to behave like this but theses two episodes where un prompted by me.

However they aare now 15 &18 any tips on how you get them to clean up thier rooms?

Way to go Hicliff, yes, teach them young!

No supper unless the room is clean! May sound harsh to some, but there is absolutely no reason why they should miss a meal.

Mine learned real easy with this method, I think todays society tends to pamper the young ones too much, to the point of stunting their maturity.

I was raised this way, my dad went to West Point, and he instilled in me a strong sense of personal responsibility, no whining was tolerated, but we were encouraged to discuss problems with him like "a real man", as he put it.

Hicliff said:

him saying "this is yours pal take it with you....thanks"

That's great! Was the guy embarrassed at all?

My son always points out litter on the ground and wants to pick it up. Sometimes it's too gross (TP for example) or unsafe (broken glass), but I try to encourage the positive action and sentiment and find ways for him to do it safely. I think it's great that he notices it and wants to do something about it. I also think we all need to do what we can and set the proper example.

For better or worse, my son is at the young age where he notices everything others do and will tell you about it within their earshot. "Why doesn't that person make her dog listen to her?" "What did that person drop on the ground!" "Are you going to tell that person to stop stepping on the plants and killing them?" "Hey, they didn't stay on the trail." and so on.

Alicia said:

"For better or worse, my son is at the young age where he notices everything others do and will tell you about it within their earshot. "Why doesn't that person make her dog listen to her?" "What did that person drop on the ground!" "Are you going to tell that person to stop stepping on the plants and killing them?" "Hey, they didn't stay on the trail." and so on."

Maybe your son needs a "junior blog" Alicia? Another LNT voice couldn't hurt eh?

Alicia As I recall the guy was embaressed -he was with several other 'weekend warriors'.

Thanks for the tips trouthunter,back then he was 9 now he is 18 fearless and full of testosterone 9 (a lot of us have been there)

Hicliff said:

Alicia As I recall the guy was embaressed -he was with several other 'weekend warriors'.

Thanks for the tips trouthunter,back then he was 9 now he is 18 fearless and full of testosterone 9 (a lot of us have been there)

Yep, I've been there! My wife says I re-visit from time to time. Also, even though I'm 44 yrs. old, I still get no super if I don't help keep the room clean.

I once thought when I was grown up things would automatically go my way.

Now, not only do I have to keep my room clean, I have to pack out other peoples trash sometimes. I've been duped it seems.

trouthunter said:

Maybe your son needs a "junior blog" Alicia? Another LNT voice couldn't hurt eh?

Oh no, then I'd have to wonder what else he might repeat to the world. Having no-filter has its advantages and disadvantages.

Trouthunter when you pack out other peoples rubbish you leave the place better for a stranger-a bit like always carrying a first aid kit your more likely to use it on some-one else.

I to carry out other peoples crap you and I and others who do so are just more honorable than the the people who leave it

At 50 I look forward to the occassional testosterone surge - I,m only kidding myself hear folks it gets used up mowing the lawn

Hicliff said:

... they are now 15 &18 any tips on how you get them to clean up their rooms?

Shoot a short video of their brightly lit, dirty room and post it on you-tube! - Use their names too!

At CCEEC, even though we do have trash cans available, we have instituted a voluntary PI/PO policy for our school groups. I am pleased, and sometimes surprised at how many and which kinds of kids understand the concept and which ones don't. It seams that most of the less-privileged kids really get it while many of the well-to-do and kids couldn't care less. Most of the "urban" kids are just confused.

Thanks f klok i'll try the video however it might be a while...... up until recently I thought "my space "was a reference to privileged car parking. The well to do donn't care v's less privileged phenomenon is also observable here in Australia - Imnot sure that this is a good thing though