Taxes suck!

New york taxes are high as it is. But now we have this @$$hole governor that replaced our elected one(mistress scandal) that is trying to close the budget deficit by placing, you guessed it, MORE TAXES. Among the new taxes are an "obesidy tax on non-diet soda, a tax on downloaded music, etc..

If you care to read the article on the terror he placed upon us-http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2008/12/16/2008-12-16_gov_david_paterson_unveils_dire_new_york.html

How bad are the taxes where you guys live?

My friend....I'm afraid we haven't seen anything yet.

Math is math, politics aside, how deep in debt is our government?

When other countries decide they are done buying our debt, things have the potential to get real bad.

Trout is right

It will get worse before it gets better. How much worse, your guess is as good as mine but I can assure you it will.

So buy you gear now you may need it later.

jeez way to send shivers down my spine! I was just asking about local and state taxes, not an armageddon theory!

along these lines, I just took a business trip to massachusetts. By business I mean fly to nantucket on a private plane and drive 6 hours back in rich people's cars while they FLY the 45 min trip back. I get paid so I'm not gonna complain! ANYWHO they call the govorner "tax it all Duvall" because....he taxes it all apparently. Their sales tax went up from 5% to 6.25% effective in august. They think this to be a major blow while I sit here in NY with all of our 8% DOWN from 8.25%. perspective...

Sorry we scared you Kmarr lol.

There is only two things you have to do in life 1) Pay Taxe's 2) Die, I know it sucks but its true.

Kmarr says:

jeez way to send shivers down my spine! I was just asking about local and state taxes, not an armageddon theory!

Sorry buddy,

The state and local tax hikes are just the symptom of a much larger problem: Spending money when you don't have any, and deficit spending. Sometimes deficit spending is necessary, but when it becomes the 'status quo' you got trouble.

Sales tax in my area is 7% on average. but also look at all the fees and taxes on your cable bill, phone bill, water bill, etc.

Just my 2 cents.

First of all i must admit that I like taxes, and the good they could do. But as it stands our taxes are not used for the good of the people. And I'm chuckling over the fact of the obesity taxes. It was only a matter of time. I dont drink sodas or eat fast food so why should I care. Really, who stood up agaist the taxes on smokers? Did you know that the tax on 1 lb of tobacco went from $1.09 to 24.54 last year? And you complain of a .05 tax on your soda? LMFAO Its real sad when its ok to tax others but dont tax me. As smokers quit less taxes are coming in. besides obesity is now the #1 killer in the US. Like I said The taxes arnt bad, its the people that spend them that are evil.

Taxes here in LA. CA are almost 10% on sales of goods and services, excluding food (supermarket stuff, not meals in restaurants).

Government spending priorities and who pays are the big issue for me. People in Europe pay high taxes, but among the things they get for their money is health care and very few of them would trade that for lower taxes.

Taxes pay for schools, libraries, roads, police and fire protection, parks, lifeguards at the beach, wilderness areas, food and drug regulators, environmental protection, a lot of good stuff. Yes, a lot of it gets wasted and more should be spent more wisely (like avoiding unnecessary wars, not building hugely expensive weapons systems that we will never use and bailing out Wall Street companies who made bad bets), but without taxes, you'd probably be sitting in the dark and living on a dirt road with an outhouse for a bathroom.

I went to public schools most of my life, including a public university. I think my parents got pretty good value for their tax money based on that alone. I love my local libraries; I check out books all the time and probably have saved thousands of dollars over the years. I have even used computers at different libraries when I was out of town and needed internet access. All paid for by someone's taxes.

I love Yosemite. A week car pass is $20. I can camp there for free (high country in winter) because taxes pay for the roads, the rangers and everything else it takes to keep the park open so I can get there. Maybe if I was a millionaire and was paying some huge amount, I might have a beef, but I'm not and really don't. Even with all the waste and scams, I think I get pretty good value for my money.

I don,t think taxes for the most part are bad in general, but when tax money go to buy out money for big business that over extended them self's then have the gal to give the ceo's bonus's. Why the buyout to start with if tha company's cant make it because of stupidity they should go bankrupt and have other people or company's buy them out and pick up the piece's not hold there hand out. Tobacco taxes are absolutely asinine I mean common why is it really so high on smokes? Here in Central New York there was an article in the news paper that showed where the local tobacco taxes went to and only about 5% went to anything tobacco related the rest went to obscure places unrelated to tobacco at any level. Why do some have to pay that much? Taxes in New York are getting extremely out of hand with no real benefit to the people who pay them. Taxes continue to go up but school's, libraries are closing teachers are being cutback roads are going to crap. There are less personal to manage wilderness areas state and county parks a opening later and closing earlier and some wont even open this year. Cops well to we got enough ticket nazies we are not short of them but we are short of police officers with integrity, crime keeps going up. I am sure some tax dollars go to the good but most go places that are useless or unwanted or tp places that need total reform no more money.

They are taxing tobacco products out of existance. The Hava Tampa factory in southern Florida is closing the doors to 500 employes. The original tax plan had cigar taxes going form a few cents each to a dollar or more per cigar! This was way beyond the increases that spurred the tea party. They did come back with lower taxes on cigars, but prices have jumped 25 to 50 cents per cigar and more increases will probably be coming to further fund schip. When countries like Nicaragua and The Dominican Republic are economically knee capped by our tobacco taxes, we may be see futher tax increases to ramp up foriegn aid for the countries that export tobacco. Yes, I love cigars.

pub I like cigars to but its been years since I had a good Cuban I use to have a friend that would have his parents mail him a box at a time from Cuba and boy were they nice strong but nice.

Maybe the current administration will continue to open trade with Cuba and lift the embargo all togeather. There are good and bad and just so so cigars manafactured in Cuba, just like the other major producers. Think I'll do a little yard work and fire something up.

It takes another point of view to realize I am doing something wrong. I overlooked that when I made this topic it looks like I am saying we should do away with taxes. My angle was supposed to be what specific taxes we would rather not see. Some of you drove the point home with tobacco. taxing tobacco is not made to make people quit, rather drain money from the people they know won't give up the habit no matter how costly(let me clear up that some people are not indeed addicted to cigarettes but still occasionally enjoy a cigar, I am one of them). tobacco is a luxury and therefore it is seen by a large percentage of people that it is OK to jack up taxes. Gasoline is a necessity to most people but it is still up for debate whether it is a luxury or not. New York gas taxes drive the price up a good 30 cents higher than national average. I don't smoke so the tobacco prices don't bother me too much, but gas effects everyone. how is food, clothing, money, ANYTHING delivered? well let's just say the trucks aren't solar powered. The more gas rises, the more EVERYTHING rises.

I like what taxes do, but dislike the "reasons" behind them. NY's governor jacks up sugared soda prices to lower the obesidy percentage. Not true. He did that for public relations. if he truely cared about obesidy he would do something about the zoning of schools that allow a Mcdonald's 50 feet off school grounds. He just needed to fill a deficit and claimed obesidy was the reason so people would stand behind it.

I'm tired so I will probably have to clear up some of my jumbled thoughts when a discrepancy arises :)

Kmarr, I understood your frustration.

Taxes, within reason, are a necessity. It is when taxes are raised in absurd ways to compensate for pure incompetence on the part of our leaders that you are upset about, right?

ME TOO!

For our government it seems much easier to borrow money, than to perform competently, or competively.

Geez, God forbid we solve problems...let's just continue to throw money (taxpayer money ) at problems.

(If it was their money, you can bet your a-- they would work towards a solution!)

Ok ill agree Kmarr.

Lets say every one quit smoking tomorrow do you see the problems with that?

Look at how many people would be out of work from the farmer to the guy at the gas station you buy your smokes at.

The government would have to find another excuse to tax the hell out of something other.

Obesity tax what a F-en joke its just another way to suck the life out of us.Did you take healt class in school I believe most of us did and i think it is required now anyway. So you know the effects on you life for eating at McD's 3 times a day and if you do that's your problem not mine why should I have to pay an obesity tax. Just like the seat-belt law, I have been taught in school, defensive driving class, On TV commercials, and a hundred other ways what may happen if I get into a accident but they seem to want to force me to ware it or is it just another way to generate revenue.

Maybe they should charge people that drive a luxury cars a mileage tax, well think about it a BMW or a Lincoln Town Car is a luxury car and many others as well. Why should it only be limited to the stuff that us average or below average income Blue collar people.

I don't really have much problem with luxury taxes; they largely impact those who can afford to pay them. Taxes on booze, tobacco, large boats, luxury cars are fine. Sure, if you are addicted to nicotine and cigarettes go to $10 a pack it's tough. But, drinking, smoking, having a big boat or driving an expensive car are choices people make. Don't want to pay the tax? Quit smoking/drive a cheaper car.

The taxes that I really have problems with are property taxes. What a property tax really represents is the rent you pay your local government to keep your property. If you don't pay the tax, you eventually loose the property.

Property taxes are also a favorite tool for developers to use to acquire farmland. Lobby the county to change the zoning to residential and the farmland is now taxed at a much higher rate and the farmer is forced to sell-to the developer.

I realize that property taxes go to support county government and schools but it seems to me there is a better way of financing these things than via property taxes.

Because of my lifestyle since I left the navy 33 years ago, I have always filed exempt on my tax return statements when I work. Cause between 1976 and 2009 I have never worked more than 6 months a year, averaged 4 months and so never made enough to owe taxes in the spring. I did in 2008 when I worked my only job to date for the whole year and made about $20,000. Most years otherwise I have made an average of $5,000.

By filing exempt like I did in college in 1974-75, I dont pay federal taxes on my income but get it included on my paychecks.

This year I worked full time in January, a 3 week/30 hour a week job in June and have since only worked about 10-15 hours a week since.

I have looked for full time work but its seems hard to do here in Flagstaff with all the college and university students to compete with. But even last summer I had a hard time getting a full time job. So I get food stamps at $200 a month and a twice a month food box from charity. And luckily I found a place to live for $150 a month, no utilitys and free WiFi. My rent is going up to $200 in November because of heating costs.

And interestingly enough I am eligible for $800 a month SSI when I retire at age 62. Being I have only made about $180,000 in my working life time ($5,000 x 33 + $20,000) that I would get as much as my father did after working 45 years and probably 4 times as much earnings?

Hummm.....Here's the situation in Quebec, i think it might make you feel better.

Sale tax: 14%

income tax for me on average: 35%

A pack of 25 ciggs: 9,50$ CAN

And I'm a full-time student.....

Feel better?

Norway: 25% sales tax, min 35% income tax, steep taxes on buying and owning cars, parking, tolls, gas at about $8 a gallon, equally scary alcohol and tobacco prices (I don't do either) and more!

But also:

100s of kilometers of free xc ski trails groomed several times a week using tax money (some of them right out my back door!)

adequate public health care

free tuition at all universities

private schools heavily subsidized

monthly payments for children under ca. 12 years old

and more!

It's not ideal, I can also find stuff to complain about, but we have enough left over to take vacations and get out of town on the weekends, so I can't complain too much. Hopefully you get more or less what you pay for...

Humm.. i guess so! we're taxed a bit less but the health system is crazy slow and i still have to pay 3000$ a year for school. Done next year, wooooohooo!

GaryPalmer said:

Because of my lifestyle since I left the navy 33 years ago, I have always filed exempt on my tax return statements when I work. Cause between 1976 and 2009 I have never worked more than 6 months a year, averaged 4 months and so never made enough to owe taxes in the spring. I did in 2008 when I worked my only job to date for the whole year and made about $20,000. Most years otherwise I have made an average of $5,000.

By filing exempt like I did in college in 1974-75, I dont pay federal taxes on my income but get it included on my paychecks.

This year I worked full time in January, a 3 week/30 hour a week job in June and have since only worked about 10-15 hours a week since.

I have looked for full time work but its seems hard to do here in Flagstaff with all the college and university students to compete with. But even last summer I had a hard time getting a full time job. So I get food stamps at $200 a month and a twice a month food box from charity. And luckily I found a place to live for $150 a month, no utilitys and free WiFi. My rent is going up to $200 in November because of heating costs.

And interestingly enough I am eligible for $800 a month SSI when I retire at age 62. Being I have only made about $180,000 in my working life time ($5,000 x 33 + $20,000) that I would get as much as my father did after working 45 years and probably 4 times as much earnings?

WOW- that is really cool !! Your Father worked all those years for NOTHING-VERY COOL

Well I find it interesting that my father worked 45 years, year-round, though wages were a lot less and only earned $300 a month in SSI. While I have only worked about 11 years out of the last 33 and am eligable at age 62 to get $800 a month. And that will rise a bit depending on what I earn in the next 8 years.

Both my parents together only made on $600 a month when they retired in 1983. My mother was 40 and my father was 42 when I was born in 1956, which is why they retired in 1983. 1984 was their 50th wedding anniversary year.

When he started working about 1934 when my sister was born, he made $5 a week as a fruit farmer. In 1945 when my brother was born, he was making about $40 a week as a carpenter, in 1956 when I was born he made $120 a week as a oil and gas furnace mechanic. And when he retired in 1983, I think it was about $200 a week again as a carpenter.

Interesting how inflation has gone. I started making $1.15 an hour as a cook in 1973, by 1983 minimum wage was $1.65 an hour, tho by then I was making $8.00 an hour working in Jackson Hole WY. By the mid 90s I was getting $9, an hour and my last good job was $13 an hour again in Jackson Hole. Wages are a lot better in JH than even in Alaska. Here in Flagstaff as around the nation its on $7.50 an hour M.W.

So unless one gets a good education and a better paying job, most young just starting out teenagers make only about $960 a month after taxes. Thats not too bad but with rent and school to pay for or a family its isn't much.

I stayed semi-retired all my working life. Once I started working in Jackson Hole in 1980 when I was 24 I found I could work from Memorial Day to Labor Day and make enough to go adventure traveling on and not work at all in the fall,winter and spring till the following Memorial Day. All I spent my savings on was food for backpacking trips in the Grand Canyon, the Gila Wilderness, Yosemite, Glacier, and the canyons of southern Utah.

But unlike many I have never owned or driven a car, had a family to raise or a morgage to pay off. So now at almost 54 I am no farther ahead in savings than I was at 18 in 1974. I pay my rent every month and buy groceries and save for my next adventure trip. My total bills a month are about $400 for just rent/groceries.

I have lived and worked and played all over the USA since I first took to the open road and trail in 1977, my first year out on my own after high school (dropped out in 10th grade), college(one year), the Navy (1 & 1/2 yrs, cooking in the officers mess)and vocational school (one year getting my GED and a cooking certificate). My adventureous life has been great but I wonder what I would have done had I worked hard and had a family instead?

My wife and I own a great business and pay large SS but @ 62 ( real soon) we each will be drawing maximum. About $3400.00 per month for both of us. This will be a nice little fund to add to our retirement and make it nice for travel. If we wait until we are 65 it will be more- but I just don't see the point. We have worked our butts off but it has really paid off in the last 5 years and continues to do so. Sounds like you do some REALLY great stuff Gary !! I often wonder if I should have gone that route ? I raised 4 children- have 8 grandchildren - a large biz- and two houses paid for. On the other hand I have only done about half the travel you have done. I best get caught up !! Thanks

Excessive taxation stifles economic growth - that is an irrefutable fact of economic history. Taking money out of the private sector and channeling it through a gov't bureaucracy to accomplish any end has proven, time and time again, to be an absolute catastrophe. Trout and Mike are right on target. But hey, gotta have taxes to run the Socialist State - see ya in the bread line boys.

"Excessive" is the key adjective. 98 percent of the forests I have hiked in have been "second growth" because unfettered capitalism decreed it acceptable to destroy forests to turn a buck.

My mom's currently on a cruise down the Pacific coast. She took a photo of a gigantic ship devoted to catching tuna. Ships like this are destroying our oceans, which unfettered capitalism says is fine.

The fact that the forests grew back and that fish stocks restore themselves demonstrates that a combination of common sense and government intervention can give us both: economic growth and forests to hike in.

Taxes aren't the enemy -- unwise use of them is.

In this corner we have capitalism wearing the greedy trunks....

and in this corner we have large government wearing incompetent trunks.....

What we really need is good, honest, people in both sectors! I don't think the systems are corrupted for the most part, the people are.

As a small business owner, I get hammered by both sides. The government taxes me for being successful, and big insurance gets a huge cut of my payroll whether I profit or not.

And both entities want their cut figured from my total gross receipts.

They both claim they are just there to help............Yeah my *ss!

So the next time a construction company gives you a ridiculously high price for work you need done, try to understand they probably pay around 50% of the money they make to taxes and business insurance right off the bat. They have to buy materials, make payroll, fund warranty work, and pay all overhead, out of the remaining 50% or so.

My company has never had a work injury, yet I have to pay $23.00 in insurance for EVERY $100.00 in payroll, and that only covers employees while at work. Somebody is gettin rich.

I get like this when I need to go backpacking!!!

Trout, you're a greedy capitalist pig. You and your kind have given us things like this computer (yeah, i know Jack Kilby wasn't working for a NPO when he invented the IC chip), the cars we drive to the trail head, all the nifty gear we so relish (couldn't we have just stuck with canvas tents and waxed cotton duck rain gear), even the camera Tom's mom was using. If it weren't for the jobs you provide, we could backpack all the time. And just because your forefathers like JD Rockefeller, Jr., Snake River Land Company, Northern Pacific Rail, etc helped make the national parks possible, you're still not off the hook. The environmental atrocities you and your kind perpetuate are legion - why can't you have a spotless record like government controlled economies, for instance, the former Soviet Union or China? It seem taxes are a sore spot for you (you act like it is your money).... how else do you expect us to fund our vast network of social "programs"? Besides, who do you think makes better use of your money; you or a wise, benevolent government bureaucracy? C'mon Trout, get with the program.

Tom, I hope you scolded your mom for supporting the burning of fossil fuel for mere recreation.

Hey, I'll have you know I read "Atlas Shrugged" in my youth. I later came to believe it was 99% simplistic rot, which I chalk up to becoming more conservative the older I get.

Last time I was back home, my brother was spouting the certainties he's memorized from right-ring radio with the same fervor that Archie Bunker's annoying son-in-law was belching from the left 40 years ago.

Just one more reason I'd rather be walking on dirt than discussing politics, the economy, social causes and everything else that keeps folks permanently agitated.

HaHa.

Hey, I don't mind paying my fair share, working hard, etc. I also appreciate living in a free country very much, it just makes me sad to see so much potential wasted by those in power. Many of the corporate types seem to be out for themselves with reckless abandon, hoarding wealth while poorer people go hungry. Trickle down economics works only when those controlling the cash flow care about others. The government can't add or subtract apparently, how hard is it to figure out you can not continuously spend more than you have, or promise more than you can deliver, (and do it anyway by borrowing money)?

I fully realize things aren't quite that simple, but they aren't all that complicated either really.

Mostly I am thankful to live in a free country where I can go hiking / backpacking anytime I wish without asking permission from the government or local authorities as is the case in some other countries. We do have a great National Park / State Park system. We've come a long way!

Well said Tom, I'd rather be stomping ground too. Sad most folks can no longer discuss such things without a bitter scowl on their face. Decorum gave way to the "in your face" confrontation. Thanks for taking my post whimsical as it was intended. "Meathead" Stivic and Archie Bunker, lol, that's a blast from the past - what classic duels.

Trying to lighten things up my preferreed tarbaby-avoidance tactic. Learned after far too many late nights pounding away at a keyboard making zero progress at getting people to be reasonable and see things my way.

tommangan said:

.... Taxes aren't the enemy -- unwise use of them is.

Pogo said:

We have met the enemy, and the enemy is us