Close Deck canoe / kayak / small sail boat ideas??!!

1:51 p.m. on December 29, 2012 (EST)
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Hi All, and happy New Year!

I am looking for resources to build my own closed deck canoe/kayak/sail boat!

Any source is Greatly appreciated!

What I am looking for is a small one or possibly two person boat that is set up to sail bu can be paddled also.   It has to be fairly large to carry me and gear for several weeks.  Say about a 500+ lb load.  I want the deck to be mostly covered with the opening large enough to be able to sail from.  I would probably make some type of custom rain cover for it, not a roll cover like in kayaks. 

I plan on building the boat myself (Lots of construction experience, though nothing quite like this) and then sailing / rowing the inside passage up to Alaska and then back down on the west side of the islands back to the Puget Sound area.  I would beach most nights and for any storms, but it would be great to be able to sleep in the boat if needed. 

Any one with advice, or some place to look please post away.  Also any thoughts are also welcome.  Oh, I already know I am crazy so....  Well you can tell me again if you want. :)

Wolfman

Hoping to be come Walrus Man! :D

1:00 p.m. on December 30, 2012 (EST)
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Wolfman,

I have been fascinated by boat design my whole life having grown up on Chesapeake Bay and then later living in Seattle.  I have repaired lots of canoes, driftboats and the like.  I built a Pygmy Coho out of African mahogany using stitch and glue technology.  I also used to build fiberglass sailboats in Arlington, WA.

The Inside Passage is cold and rough and covers a lot of distance.  A large sea kayak or decked canoe might be the obvious choice with a provision for a sail under favorable conditions.  A sailing rig would likely make for a wet ride in a small boat and would not row or paddle well.  Most of the wind direction tends to run north and south making for a lot of running and beating. There is tremendous satisfaction in boat building. I wish you all the best in your ambitious undertaking.  Your life will never be the same. 

1:02 p.m. on December 30, 2012 (EST)
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There are lots of designs out there.  CCL, Pygmy, Glen-L, etcl.  Just start googling small wooden boats.  I am a big fan of the stitch and glue technology using high quality plywood and marine epoxy.  Those designs are beautiful, light and very strong for their weight.

10:30 a.m. on December 31, 2012 (EST)
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Ppine,  Thanks for the encouragement!

Right now I am thinking about something like the CLC Mill Creek design, but I don't like the flat bottom for something I am going to outfit with sails.  Plus I am not sure that design is strong enough for open coastal waters.  

I have been toying with the strip plank design ideas but I have not found anything yet that matches what I am looking for.

I figure there are two ways I can go;

1) A small kayak type boat with one or two outriggers and a full sail system.  This could be paddled if now winds with a double paddle.  Load capacity and that stuff should be fine, but I don't think I could sleep in something like this, just to small.  Being able to sleep on the boat would be a big advantage.  Maybe not every night but say about half the time.

2) A larger sailing boat, something like one of the smaller canoe yawls with an enclosed deck and a drop keel.  This would be great for sailing, and sleeping on, but it would be much heaver then any other set up, probably closer to 500 lbs, and would be very hard to beach and un-beach with out using the tides.  Not something that always works.   One other problem I am having with the Canoe Yawl designs is finding actual plans to build off of, lots of one sheet "plans" but not always the detail that I would need or want for a first boat!  :)

Any thought are greatly appreciated! 

Wolfman

11:06 a.m. on December 31, 2012 (EST)
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Wolf,

This fun to think about.  I entertained the same idea a long time ago.

Your two ideas both have merit.  If I were you I would forget all about sleeping aboard.  I had a 23 foot Columbia that I sailed on Lake Tahoe for 5 years and slept on it a lot..  It had a galley, bunks and a head.  It rocked and rolled all the time and the rigging made noise even when it was pretty calm.  Sleeping on shore is much better.

A sailing canoe is too tender for the Passage.  Outriggers change everything.  The Polynesians made them work in the open Pacific.

A substantial sailboat, say at least 20 feet, would work fine with a serious center board.  It is a more labor intensive  undertaking to build and is harder to move around in the tidal flats.  If you make a mistake you just have to wait for the tide to come in.  After awhile watching the tide is second nature in the saltwater and you will anticipate the way it behaves.  It would help to have a small inflatable to reach your boat when it is anchored offshore.

 It is worth mentioning that the tidal rips in the Passage can be substantial as in 5-8 knots or more.  The current can be more than you can paddle against several hours a day.  Some areas are like a chess game, where it is better to wait and go with the current.  All those islands and shallow bays make for some tricky currents when the tide goes up and down.  By Ketchikan it is around 15-18 feet per day on average.  At Seattle more like 4-5 feet.

The weather can be cold and wet even in summer.  A spray skirt in a kayak affords protection for the lower body but you are still exposed.  Long crossings can get old stuck in the same position.  The sailboat could be designed with a dodger to get you out of the weather.  You can move around.  You could add a small outboard for headwinds and rips. 

11:28 a.m. on December 31, 2012 (EST)
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I like the idea of something with outriggers. You should go with two if you go that direction then you have rollover protection from both sides. You could then anchor or beach and string a hammock from the front support to the back support. Or you could use that area for storage, everything is gonna get wet anyway. If you strung a net or mesh tarp (i cant think of a better word) kinda like on a catamaran in that space you could lash your gear on it. This would give you more space in the boat and put more weight on the pontoons. I think both of those are pluses in that kind of water. Ive been trying to think of a boat that fits your needs but cant think of any design that would be perfect. I just keep gping back to the beginning of the old hawai five o with the outrigger canoe going through head high surf with only guys paddlin it. I would consider some kind of canoe with outriggers, square back with an outboard to use sparingly and in emergencies. As previously posted the tidal currents are powerful, a shallow draft wider setup will be affected less by current but more by wind than a single hull deeper keeled boat. With a small outboard on the setup I described you could skim over that current to get to shore in a sketchy situation. I know fuel would be an issue, but a few mins here and there wouldnt burn a lot of gas, plus it would act as a rudder in windy conditions. What your planning is a big challenge, whatever boat you choose, spend a lot of time in it, in the roughest water you can find. Knowing what your boat can and will do in diff conditions is a must when your life is in your own hands.

3:51 p.m. on December 31, 2012 (EST)
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Check out Pygmy Kayaks' Wine Glass Wherry. I think it can be rigged for sail, maybe with leeboards. Assuming you don't want to buy the kit, maybe you can find plans or draft up something similar?

8:31 p.m. on December 31, 2012 (EST)
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The Wherry is a fine boat, but better suited to lakes than the Inland Passage.  It would not be stiff enough under sail in a fresh breeze, let alone a blow.

One of the serious problems to overcome is the water temperature.  A capasize even near land is an event to avoid when the temperature is 52-55 degrees F.

1:52 p.m. on January 1, 2013 (EST)
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I did a lot of looking around yesterday on the net for small boats like I am thinking about.  Man there is a LOT out there!! 

ppine  can you elaborate on why you think a sailing canoe would not be a good choice?  The more I look the more I like that design.  It would need to be decked like a kayak but the opening would be bigger and the spray skirt more like a lose cover they a kayak set up.  If it went over I would not be rolling it back up! 

About protection, I would either be in a full dry suit or a 5+mm wet suit any time I was out on the water in less then ideal conditions.  Maybe all the time regardless.   I had though about this before and don't see any other way to deal with the water temps, well and survive that is.

Boat Construction

Any one have thoughts, or directions to reading, on what is stronger; stitch and glue or strip construction?  Not so much worried about rocks and the like, but big waves and breakers?  Is one of these constructions methods better suited for open water?   It seems like both are quiet common and larger boats use both. 

Also, flat bottom vs. V bottom?  I have found several designs that I could use to start with, but most are flat bottom designs and that seems like it would be weaker then a multi-chine bottom, but I don't know if that is real or imaged.  Again both seem to be fairly common for larger sailing boats (up to about 18').

I did find one small boat that was actually designed to sleep aboard, it's called the "Walkabout".  It also fits my basic desire, but I worry about open water in something like this?  Any thoughts??

Walkabout

Walkabout Photo Album

Would have been nice to see more pictures of the build and the finished product.  But this is something i could build.  I might take several months, or more, but Construction wise I think it would be fine. 

For that matter any stitch and glue or strip plank I would be fine with too.

Wolfman

3:15 p.m. on January 1, 2013 (EST)
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Wolfman, you might want to contact Chris Cunningham at Sea Kayaker Magazine. He rowed to Alaska many years ago. I would make several points.

1. How much sailing experience do you have? The Inside Passage is rough enough. The west side of Vancouver Island is considered hazardous for small craft. The definition for small craft is anything under 120 feet.

2. The issue that came up in this discussion, is that to build a boat that is big enough to hold you and your gear and still be light enough to beach. You are going to have to make a compromise. Either get a boat that can safely be anchored out, and carry your gear, or one that forces you to stop frequently for supplies but be light enough to beach. Remember, there are few beaches.

3. I sailed a Luders 21(open fixed keel) in Desolation Sound for a cruise in the '80s. I launched at Lund. I found I either wanted something bigger or smaller.

4. You may not have sailed a great deal if you are discounting a flat bottom. Sharpies can be very weatherly and fast. They are sailing on their chines, so don't pound. That form is easy to build.

5. Look at Chapple.'s American Small Sailing Craft for design ideas. Also small trailer sailers. Definitely consider a West Wight Potter, either the original or the the 19. They are sharpie form and quite capable. Although built in FG, the original was marine ply. I wouldn't go for a multi hull. They capsize. Another design would be an O'Day Day Sailer. If you google, you may find an account of a couple that cruised the coast of Labrador in one. Good story. Solid boat.

9:48 p.m. on January 1, 2013 (EST)
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For what it's worth, I used to be a bookseller in Nova Scotia. These titles were popular, and might be some help?

Practical Small Boat Designs by John Atkin, Wooden Boat Magazine.

The Working Guide to Traditional Small-Boat Sails: A How-to Handbook for Builders and Owners by David L. Nichols. This one focuses on the sails themselves, obviously.

How to Build Wooden Boats: With 16 Small-Boat Designs by Edwin Monk. Dover Books.

Wooden Boat also published Fifty Wooden Boats: A Catalog of Building Plans, which was Volume 1 of a series, Thirty Wooden Boats and Forty Wooden Boats being Vols 2 and 3.

Buehler's Backyard Boatbuilding by George Buehler probably had more personality and profanity than the rest put together, he seems to be quite the character. Amazon informs me that he's from Oregon.

Anyway, I don't get to use the bookseller skills much anymore, so I thought I'd chime in. And I'm motivated to support this project, it sounds like a fantastic idea!

10:39 a.m. on January 2, 2013 (EST)
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Erich, thanks for the ideas and suggestions!

As for sailing, no not a lot, did a fair amount as a kid on my dad's San Juan, but nothing really sense then.   I do plan on probably spending at least half a year sailing / rowing what ever boat I end up with before doing the actual trip. 

What I really want is a kayak size sailing craft, that was one of the reasons I was thinking of a sailing canoe.  Really at this point I am just trying to get my head around all the pro's and con's of different size boats.  But what ever I end up doing I want to build it. 

One of the reasons that I though about something like the Walkabout, is that I could anchor in a protected cove if needed.  From my reading and research, it can be hard to find a camping spot on a lot of the coast.  Steep slopes straight into the water.  And beaches are not safe because of the tides.   Like I said, still at the research stage, lots of research!

Islandess,  Thanks for the list of books!  I actually printed off the thread so I could check out our local used book store to see what they have, if anything.  I guess I could always get them on Amazon if all else fails. :)

Thanks everyone for the help and ideas, Keep Them coming!

Wolfman

12:00 p.m. on January 2, 2013 (EST)
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Wolfman, the issue of having a kayak sized boat that will sail, means there is much less room for gear. You will need a good rudder, mast and sails, as well as either a lee or centerboard. You are right that the coast has a lot of steep shores, which is why you would want a boat big enough that it can be anchored out or small enough that it can be pulled up on a beach. For anchoring out, you will want a boat that you can actually stretch out in to sleep. Check out Phil Bolger's work. He just passed away this year. A good naval architect, if somewhat unique in his approaches. Uffa Fox, noted sailor and designer and the father of the modern planing dinghy, built several sliding seat canoes in the thirties. He cruised the coast of Brittany in a double handed boat. Albert Strange designed some nice canoe yawls. ppine is right about the strong tides, but off on the speed. There are many places where the tides exceed 10 knots. To do such a trip, you will need to be constantly aware of weather, tides, and stopping places. You will need a dry suit. My advice regarding a sailing kayak sized boat, is not to do it. Either stick with a kayak, with the possibility of one of those small hand held sails that you can use downwind, or a larger sail boat that can be easily rowed. There is another factor to consider. You will most likely want to do this in the summer when the weather is better. I have spent many hours on sail boats in dead calms. Do not rely on a GPS. You will need good charts and good navigational skills using only a chart and compass. The multitude of islands is very confusing. Unlike a land based trip, there are no high points so you can get your bearings, so to speak. Everything is from the water level. You will need a good radio.

12:02 p.m. on January 2, 2013 (EST)
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Wolfman,

A sailing canoe is a wet ride under the best of circimstances.  They are just not stiff enough for saltwater conditions, especially with cold water.  Most canoes use leeboards, but you could add an outrigger.  A sea kayak with a cockpit and a spray skirt would handle the weather a lot better.  A capsize in the Inland Passage with a canoe with a spray cover could be a disaster and it is likely to happen more than once.

A Westwight Potter suggested above or a Montgomery which I used to sail in rough conditions would give you a much better chance.  A sailing canoe or kayak has a lot of sail area for the resistance of the boat to heeling.  They can get easlily overwhelmed in rough conditions.

A multi-chine boat is always better than a flat bottomed boat in my opinion.  In the canoe vernacular you give up some primary stability for improved secondary stability.  A flat bottomed canoe feels stable until it starts to go over, then there is not much to resist capsizing.  A Sharpie is a great design that comes from country with a lot of shallows.  It is a happy compromise, but not ideal for the cold Pacific.

For a long trip I would not underestimate the comfort of being able to move around in the cockpit of a sailboat and get out of the weather.  That means rain and the spray that is often around on small boats in the big ocean.  This far into the conversation, I would favor a small stiff sailboat over the other choices.  Evan if I had to buy a used one and build the canoe or sea kayak later.

Erich is right about the tidal rips.  I was trying not to exaggerate and scare anybody.

 

 

12:50 p.m. on January 2, 2013 (EST)
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Thanks Guys!

I know about the tides, I saw a  video a few years back of some kayaks running the tide rips like rivers, eddies, whirlpools, waves and and all, it was quite interesting to watch, but not something I would probably want to try. 

Don't think I will have time today to start looking up all your suggestions, but I will start tonight. 

What ever boat I decide to go with, I will probably make some kind of spray skirt for, not tight like on a kayak, but something to keep the spray and rain out of the boat.  At least that is the plan right now. 

Wolfgang

9:27 p.m. on January 8, 2013 (EST)
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Not sure if you've ever considered a proa but if you can get your head around shunting instead of jibes... it may just fit the bill.

8:53 a.m. on January 9, 2013 (EST)
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Shapeshifter, that is almost exactly what I was suggesting. If the area between the hull and pontoon was a trampoline like on a catamaran, you could sleep on it without a pad, like a taut hammock. The laces around it could even be loosened to become more hammock like. I was thinking even a second pontoon for the waters he is wanting to travel on. If you have trouble finding those books, my mother owns a used book store, and involved in antiquarian book sales all over the world. She will find them if you cant.

11:46 a.m. on January 9, 2013 (EST)
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Hotdog,

Sleeping on a canoe or kayak even in a protected spot will be a fantasy a lot of the time.  There is too much motion.  Try to go to sleep with kids jumping on  your bed and you will get the idea of what you are up against.

5:13 p.m. on January 9, 2013 (EST)
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Hey ppine, some of us actually enjoy being on a bobbing boat! Sure that'll rock you right to sleep. ;)

1:19 a.m. on January 10, 2013 (EST)
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If I were to build a boat to sail the Inside Passage and wanted a boat that was easy to build, it would be a sharpie. The West Wight Potter is a sharpie design. Once over on the chine, the boat will harden up. Remember that dories are essentially sharpie designs and very stable once over on the chine. Chappel mentions a sharpie that sailed the Juan de Fuca Straits for fishing. Like scows they will pound when sailed flat, but do quite well when heeled. I agree, that a sea motion can be comforting. But the pounding in a flat bottomed boat is not comfortable, IMHO. As well, even in something like my 10 meter, I was always aware of any change while at anchor. Montgomerys are a great design, but being a lapstrake design are harder to build than a sharpie. They are essentially a WWP built in a rounded form.

I will not say that you cannot sail the inside passed in a Hobie 14 or the like. But you will be a great sailor before you start and a phenomenal one when you finish. There is a reason the West Coast is considered the Graveyard of the Pacific.

Proas, cats and tris are good boats, to be sure. But sail one in hard conditions, before you cast your lot with one. I have seen them upside down too many times, to be impressed except with their speed. Make no mistake, even with the best tris, you will be sailing at "periscope depth" much of the time.

12:08 p.m. on January 10, 2013 (EST)
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Hi All,

I have been busy at work the last week and have not had much time for looking at boat designs.  Thanks for all the suggestions, hopefully this weekend I can do some more work on this project.


Some general questions if anyone has answers;

What type of construction is "stronger"; frame and lap with fiberglass on the  exterior, wood strip & fiberglass both  sides, stitch & Glue with fiberglass both sides, other??

Erich, when you say "over on the chine" I am assuming that you are talking about under sail with the boat cocked to one side or the other.  At that point the boat is then sailing on the edge of the flat and the chine becomes the "keel", on smaller boats like what we are talking about, how much lean does the boat need to do this?  Or is that something that is different for every design?

With the Walkabout (Link above) would it be better to continue the curve of the haul all the way to the keel?  I was thinking about this design, but in a cedar strip build.  Taking the curve all the way to the center and using a solid center piece with a steel / iron / brass strip along the bottom for weight and durability.  But no center board.  Not sure if that would work or not.

My other idea was to use two smaller center boards offset to the sides of the boat to keep the center clear as in the design.  Any thoughts on either of these ideas? 

I was also think that the deck would come back further on to the boat, leaving about 1/3 open so if needed the boat could still be oared, but most of it would be covered by the hard deck.  The rest would have some kind of soft deck/covering for foul weather. 

The Proa and other Cat designs would be fun in a dryer environment, but I don't think they would by a good choice for the Inside Passage, being stuck in one exposed to the rain and wind would suck.  I think that would be more exposed then a Kayak or a normal canoe.  Now I realize that in the size boat I am thinking about, less the 20', I am not going to get much protection anyway, but if it was wider and decked, their would at least be a place I could lay/sit down in to get out of most of the weather and still sail the boat in decent wind.  I would head to ground for any "Storm" that came up.

One more thing;  Any suggestions on books for basic sailing, design, and terminology?  I am sure some one has gone through lots of these design ideas before, it would be great to read about all this before I make the same mistakes someone else has already solved.  I also need to re-learn all the sailing / boat terminology and small boat sailing again.  :D

Wolfman

2:16 p.m. on January 10, 2013 (EST)
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Wolf, sail boat design is rather complex, and each design will have variables. I have learned a lot about sailing over the years. My late uncle was a good friend of Norm Blanchard, so I grew up on Knockabouts. Finding a boat that will meet your criteria(light weight, weatherly) is a nearly impossible task. You will have to make some compromises as I outlined above. As far as construction methods, there are a number, and they all have been around for a long time, but now with the addition of GRP. Lapstrake is light weight and quite stiff, because it does not require longitudinal stringers. Dory and sharpie shapes are easy to build in plywood, and don't require a form. For the heavier boat you are talking about, stitch and glue is just not strong enough. Pygmy boats and the like are good boats, but you won't put 500 pounds in them, nor will they stand up to the stress of a sail rig. To have the ability to sail, a boat needs several things. An arrangement to distribute the load from the rig to the boat. Called a mast step, even some modern designers get it wrong. You also need shrouds. You can use an unstayed mast, but it will be heavier.

When talking about designs and how much heel they take, or how much stability they have, each design is quite different. Without  getting into a tutorial about hull shapes, looking at my article on canoes elsewhere on this site might prove helpful. However, I can give you a couple of examples. Sailing scows have a reputation for being fast, but, at least in the PNW, not suitable for big waves. I built a scow fleet here in Seattle, after finding out otherwise. Scows are flat bottomed, but are not sailed that way, except when they begin to plane. They are sailed on edge, and they cut nicely through chop to about three feet. My 10 meter was quite the opposite in hull form. Narrow and long with a tall high aspect rig. However, it also sailed on its ear. All sail boats, except for planing dinghies and including multi hulls, sail with heel. A dory is more stable when leaned on its chine(the sharp area where the side and bottom meet.

Another boat you should consider is a Sea Pearl or similar. Definitely check out Phil Bolger's designs, as he drew some boats that would meet your criteria

4:53 p.m. on January 10, 2013 (EST)
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Wolf, I will add that ppine is correct in that some sharpie designs were designed for gunkholing in Florida, or tonging shallows, such as the New Haven Sharpie. The more weatherly designs, such as the San Juan Islands sharpie Chappelle mentions, were quite capable boats. They were designed to be easily and cheaply built. Modern versions have cruised the Inside Passage. You will want something with inside ballast to give some righting ability. I should also mention that even the New Haven versions can be quite capable. The Center for Wooden Boats here in Seattle, has a large New Haven boat. It is traditionally rigged with two masts and is completely open. The masts are unstayed. In a puff the masts bend, flattening the sails and spilling wind. The traditional sharpie rig also uses a leg'o mutton sail. One advantage is that the sail can be quickly doused by loosening the snotter. They can also be quickly reefed this way. They are also Marconi or Bermuda headed, so most of the power is down low.

11:23 p.m. on January 19, 2013 (EST)
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IMG_1365.jpg

Here's the rig I strapped into today... amazingly, it all breaks down to four bags.

10:25 a.m. on January 21, 2013 (EST)
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Erich,

Thanks for mentioning the Center for Wooden Boats.  The oldstyle sail rigs were easy to handle especially when single-handing.  The components parts are small and sail can always be reduced in a hurry.  Stays are often not required.  In sailing like in life, simple can be an advantage.

When I was a kid on Chesapeake Bay there was still fleet of Skipjacks and Bugeyes used for oystering under sail.  They were gaff-rigged with huge canvas sails and as many as 8-9 reef points.  They used manual oyster tongs in about 4-5 feet of water.  They were shallow draft boats but needed to reduce sail because they were not very stiff.

 

1:51 p.m. on January 24, 2013 (EST)
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ppine, skipjacks are great boats. The last I heard, they are still used for oystering on the bay, as a way to keep the catch down. Both the skipjacks and bugeyes were not tonging boats, though. They were and are dredgers, which is why they need such a powerful sail plan, to haul the dredge along the bottom. The design is based on the log canoes. The original boats used massive logs for the keel and out to the chines, mostly for strength. As you mention, with their powerful rigs, they need to reduce sail quickly, or risk a capsize. I don't know that I've ever seen one gaff rigged. Usually they are bermuda rigged with a long boom to keep the CE low. They'll usually use a whisker pole when running downwind to balance the rig. There was a small (25') reproduction here in Seattle that I sailed a few times. They are much like a sharpie in form, though technically they are a shallow v rather than flat, and have considerably more beam to keep them standing while working the dredge.

4:57 p.m. on January 24, 2013 (EST)
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Erich,

Talking with you is always interesting and I get to learn things.  I just went and looked at some old photgraphs and you are correct about the sail plans.  I haven't been back there in 40 years.  We sailed a 5 log canoe once which was really something.

Your observations abut dredging make sense, but I just don't recall seeing them used that way.  Maybe I was too young to notice.

There are stitich and glue power boats being built around Seattle that are as long as 30 feet with gas or diesel engines.  They can be built as strong as you need them to be.

I used to build boats for Tanzer Yacht Corp a Canadian company, at their plant in Arlington.  We were right down the street from Bayliner and Reinell.

I sailed with my uncle on his 35 foot ketch on the Sound and my Dad used to have a 43 foot power boat.  I miss going to the Gulf Islands, the San Juans and up towards Deception Sound.  It is sobering to paddle a sea kayak in that country and I know what wolf is up against.

There are plenty of ways to rig a canvas "dodger" in the cockpit of any sailboat.  I can be as simple as some bent pvc pushed thru a fold in a piece of canvas.

 

 

10:19 p.m. on January 24, 2013 (EST)
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ppine, Dredging oysters, according to Maryland Law, must still be done under sail. This is why the skipjack is the last sailing work boat in America, and has survived. The only motor allowed is the motor for the winch. The boats do have motorized tenders that can pull, or more commonly push them back to harbor when the wind dies. Chappelle mentions that the larger boats range to 60 feet tonnage length and were massively built to allow the powerful rig necessary for pulling the dredge. They also carry some internal ballast, because, as a work boat, they need to stay on their feet to allow the crew to work.

Chappelle refers to them as "bateaux", and has plans for a small skipjack, "Messenger" that started life as a poacher. It was reputedly quite fast, being built to outrun police vessels.

Chappelle does mention a "flattie sloop" a forerunner of the skipjack and having a gaff rig. I suspect that there are several reasons the skipjacks did not use a gaff rig. It is more complicated to lower sail quickly, unless you scandalize it by lowering the gaff which is hard on the rig. It also is not as weatherly as the bermuda head, something that would be important for dredging.

I remember Tanzers. Seattle has a good share of builders, including Kent based San Juans. I looked at a Rawson 26 once, essentially a round bottom T Bird.

I was not aware of large stitch and glue, but of course, there are many solid designs that are built of marine ply, including the afore mentioned T Bird.

The log canoe you sailed on, was that one of those classics with the spring boards? Amazing boats, those.

11:02 a.m. on January 26, 2013 (EST)
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The log canoe as I recall had a shallow draft keel with a lot of lead in it.

7:53 p.m. on January 26, 2013 (EST)
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Shapeshifter,  I have been thinking about that design, although not a fabric model.  I have seen pictures of several wood kayaks with the same basic design.  This would be fairly easy to build, good stability, and ease of both paddling and sailing.  Can't sleep in it though, and I would be worried in heavy swells, not sure how that would work with the outriggers. 

7:02 a.m. on February 1, 2013 (EST)
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Only recently had my hands on a milspec proto type folding canoe for testing which had been rigged for a sail as well. At 17 ft. it would have room to stretch out in. But then there are these 34' fiberglass canoes we build and repair which would also transition well for wind power!

Ralphsonthewave_sm.jpg

11:29 a.m. on February 4, 2013 (EST)
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Shapeshifter,

Thanks for the photo.  Looks like a Montreal canoe.

7:33 p.m. on February 22, 2013 (EST)
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Montreal of course. They go to about 36 feet. They carried trade goods to Fort William on Lake Superior. Then, the smaller North Canoes took over. 24-26 feet, this is what MacKenzie used to cross the continent in 1793. Weights on the composites are getting down to the 200 pound range. Fun boats, they are popular for reenactments and tourists. The last few years have seen Voyageur boats used to retrace Canada's historic trade routes. There was a beautiful Canot du Nord built of bb that the BBC used for a documentary. It was donated to the museum in Hudson's Hope, but unfortunately was destroyed by vandals a few years ago.

12:21 a.m. on March 2, 2013 (EST)
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Umbaygog.jpg

Eye candy? 18.5 feet of WW-1 vintage Old Town Otka

The wheel is made of 2 wicker baby carriage wheels. The other 2 wheels were made into another wheel for another canoe.  

While i don't think a kayak or a canoe would work well for the trip some points to see may assist.

I made the steering and I made the sail from 1926 pillow ticking, because it was what i had. The battens are paint stir sticks and while it was 1984 when i made the sail I still have it today. The key is getting it dry. Ain't that just the way..... :-)

I still have that 'Folboat' aircraft alloy mast too, but it is no longer the mast I use, which is now spruce.

There are 3 lines visible. the center most is the halyard (haul yard) which raises the sail. The other 2 lines are shrouds or in this case back standing stays, and are used one at a time to windward.

The red boards are ply wood just hack waste and scrap and were painted a zillion times, known as Lee Boards, and the down wind side is the one that should be down, and if your scared they can both be down.

These are mounted on a oak dowel about 2 inches thick, which the wheel is mounted on, and 2 bronze cleats are also mounted on to hold the shrouds.


Sebaygo.jpg

This of course was a shot taken years ago as well. I was over taking a larger sail boat and running from what turned out to be one hell of a hail storm. A women in the larger boat came to me as i was tying the last Lashing over the canoe on my car asking if I might like a picture.

This is what she sent. She says her husband said i was doing better than 17 knots. She said, her husband said, it is impossible to plane a rounded bottom canoe, and that i was exceeding hull speed!

 

Just leave it to me to break the laws of physics. The best i can say is i was scared... I was really scared, and this is the wind that caused the shrouds to come to be.

I also own 3 rudders in the bottom of this lake, and assume all 3 are still there. This sail is 63 sq feet and it is all the sq feet that are safe. I have capsized once in all my years, and dunked the gunwhale once but was able to save it with out being totally swamped and awash.

 

Now if it were me doing this trip there is no canoe or kayak I would consider but because of the 500 pounds of gear, and the fact sails would be used.

 

 My choice would be a lapstrake design by Chappelle called Swampscott Dory. It would have a drop down center board in a boxed case which thwarts (seats) would brace the boat to be stronger.

I have more pics of this boat, but none in the water. The reason I placed this pic is you can see it is a more sea worth craft and it has a feature known as Tumbleholm which makes it as stable as a dory get get. The more you heel it over the more stable it gets.

I must say i tend to agree with Erich alot. I am new here as a day ago so I don't know anybody.


tumbleholm.jpg

I lied here is one more shot, so you can get the idea of the difference. And this boat is also 18.5 feet long but far more boat and wider. You could deck this over several ways.


dory-profile.jpg

This boat has a wrap around stern seat, a center thwart and a fore thwart and 2 storage areas, one foremost and one at the stern. In this shot the fore deck bulkhead is open and shows as black, a shadow. The hatch cover is standing on it';s edge on the forward left in the boat.

 

The tan object is a the dagger board because it can be removed completely, as a table. It is lead weighted so it was a heavy table.

 

I did attempt to sink this at a fresh water beach in 5 feet of water, by pulling the drain plug, and having 150 pounds of pure lead placed in the bottom. That wasn't enough weight to sink it, and i was out of lead.

 

The reason for that was i wanted to know if it was a safe boat, and how much weight i might have to not worry about. In another time and place that boat carried a bronze gun that weighs 45 pounds, and Lake George is better than 200 feet deep in some places ;-)

 

The idea of dying in cold water, under gray skies has never been very appealing.

11:49 a.m. on March 2, 2013 (EST)
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Nice canoe Lodge pole. I familiar with the Otca, which stands for Old Town Canoe Model A. It also has something to do with their old telegraph code. Yours doesn't seem to have the 20" decks, so I'd guess a post '57 model. That's when the original Otca molds were retired and the Otca became a Yankee model, or the Yankee name was retired and the Otca was built on Yankee molds. I agree that the dory shape is the way to go for such a trip. The other type of boat would be a Bristol Bay Boat, known in Chappelle as the Columbia River Gillnetter. Thirty years ago or more, a guy here in Seattle, made a sail for one then went to Alaska. In those days, there were still a few in decent shape, sitting in sheds where they had been stored after sails gave way to motors. He spent the summer caulking and repairing it, then sailing it down the Inside Passage.

Hull physics are interesting. A boat that will not plane, a displacement hull, can only exceed its designed hull speed(a fixed number) by increasing its waterline length. In a boat with overhangs, this results in the boat getting lower in the water. When sailing ships acquired iron spars and wire rope standing rigging, a number were lost for unknown reasons. Some naval architects a few years ago, figured out why. The ships essentially sunk themselves. With the new rigging that wouldn't break, the skippers and crews could drive them so hard they would sink lower and lower as the speed increased, until they were driven under.

2:00 p.m. on March 2, 2013 (EST)
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Friends,

I just returned from a week long canoe trip on the lower Colorado River in a 1951 OT Guide 18.  There was lots of wind and a 4-5 knot current.  The old girl can still travel with a load.

The trip was relevant to this discussion, because we were in cold water with chop, power boat wakes, and wind opposing the current.  I longed for more freeboard and more beam.  A dory style hull would have made for a much more relaxing trip.

9:44 p.m. on March 2, 2013 (EST)
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Erich, According to the numbers stamped on the stems this is a WW-1 vintage Otka apx 1917. I made it sail and it had a rougher life before i bought it. I still have and it again needs new outwhales. The deck does not look like the eiffel tower.

 It is a simple hard wood (white ash I think) and has a small spray dodger about 1/2 inch either nailed or screwed to the decks. In part o covered rot with copper because i had copper and i wasn't about to tear the boat apart to make it pristine.

I use things for what they are and that boat will never be in Bristol Shape in my care.

As i hear it and I am not sure, because i didn't research, but this is closer to a White than it is Old Town or as I think I understand it a very early Old Town.

LOL My father was a WW-2 Sub man, and a electrical engineer. I built 2 canvass on fir frame kayaks at about 10 feet.

Dad claimed that boat would not be able to keep up with a 18 foot canoe, on a down hill run on the Androscoggin River.

Well he was wrong on most of that as i paddled circles around the canoe, until I encountered hard Earth :-).

Then I began to get low in the water, but not from too much speed, but because i cut the canvass for a run of about 4 feet long right next to a stringer. No big deal I carry duct tape ha ha ha...

I do know what you mean. On a 4th of July in that same kayak I took a tow in Gloucester Harbor from a wise guy buddy of mine that had a Sea Gull on his Chesapeake Bay Sharpie and for grin he sank me by hull speed.

..................................................

ppine, I hear that... I don't like too big of water, in too small a boat. When I get to go swimming I want to go swimming and have a choice.

Vast water and a dink just don't add up to me, but then I have never been an Irish Saint.

Warm weather not too cold water and i will get a little braver, but not much. That has always been a problem of mine. On Big water i am either board to death or scared to death, and there is no inbetween.

Puddle Jumping is far more my speed.. Boating where swimming can happen.

9:49 p.m. on March 2, 2013 (EST)
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Oh, On the dory shape boat it is very possible to create a tent from the main sail either over or under the boom, and or leave the sail on the boom as std and use a tarp over or on a line under for camping.

And no matter what a car battery for night lights whether or not the boat moves at night. I have been nearly run down at night on a anchor more than once by power craft.

 

For that matter in day light.....

12:27 p.m. on March 3, 2013 (EST)
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Hide at night and sleep on shore.  Remeber those words.

1:12 p.m. on March 3, 2013 (EST)
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Lodge Pole, so if an early Otca, the decks may have been replaced, the build program I looked up says they all had 20" decks until '57. It is nice that you have an early boat. W/C is a build that can last 100 years with care, and unless completely destroyed can be repaired. Does it have diamond headed bolts? That might confirm some things, but boats get rebuilt many ways. I had a Huron I took down the Rogue in Oregon in 2010. It had been rebuilt several times and one guy put oak outwhales on it, basically oak half rounds. Those probably added 5 pounds. Old Towns are beautiful and well built, if a bit heavy because of the western red cedar planking. They just sold their original building as I understand it. A sad day.

Yes, a mast head anchor light is required for boats over 16 feet, but I recommend them at all times. Too many power boaters think that auto pilots don't require a watch.

3:32 p.m. on March 3, 2013 (EST)
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Erich, The Canvass is long gone. That was in bad shape when i bought it and that pretty much fell off it right away. My idea of a fix was to fiber glass it only on the outside, and i didn't dust it, so that glass in some +30 years isn't on any better than canvass would be.

 It is painted like birch bark now not longer black, but the painted like birch bark means tan with flecks of purpleish brown like a real bark canoe, not a tourist white and black quasi bark canoe. It also has black paint to appear as tarred seams. It took a moment to understand W/C.

I seem to recall OT's with diamond headed bolts holding thwarts, but this one has bungs over what ever the bolts are holding thwarts. I never did the inwhales over, and with out looking, I would say the bolts are common carbon steel not bronze or anything salt proof, as I think these threaded ends and square nuts may be rusting.

The keel is gone too, but i removed that when I glassed it.

IT has been going down the drain slowly over a good number of years. There isn't a great call for W/C boats anymore with all the modern plastic.

I had another OT once that was a Sponson Guide? and was double ribbed, wanna talk about heavy. It had low decks that looked like that eiffel tower. Tell the truth I am not certain I understand the 20 inch decks.... What I mean by eiffel tower is later (newer) canoes had a hand hold cut in the deck and no spray dodger at all on the deck.

Why there is any spray dodge I have no idea as all it does is drain water off the deck to the sides, but then the gunwhale is open so any minor drips end up in the bottom of the boat anyway.

And for that I made a grating that sits between ribs and runs under the center thwart. ( I don't like a wet butt much even in the heat of summer, or any wet gear.) The grating is pretty much white pine 2x4 rough cut I sawed to be big paint stir sticks, planed roughly to get the saw marks off, and stained a walnut brown, and tacked with brass brads, bending the pints back like a farrier does a horse shoe. No other protective finish, so the wood can get wet and dry and most of the time it's dry.

The reason it was painted black is I had 1 step black epoxy paint on hand that was left over from painting a race boat trailer. That was a good working idea and that hard paint is still under the tan bark color. BUT I could not get 'Monster' out of my head when i would play with the boat swapping it in a lake and seeing that big black whale shape always just gave me the creeps, even knowing it was a canoe.

Call me crazy, call me chicken, I just couldn't beat that monster.

Then the bark thing came as the Buck Skinner thing got worse. Being a Buck Skinner can become a life style, and it still is. Getting real paper birch, means taking about 100 steps on any given day... So getting any at all isn't hard, and so any fool can take some and go match up paint.

And that's whut I dun! :-)  I can be a paddle snob though ;-)

6:54 p.m. on March 3, 2013 (EST)
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As I recall the diamond headed bolts came after 1920. Many canoes came with simple steel galvanized bolts, usually carriage bolts. The 20" deck I refer to is a longer deck. The standard deck is no more than about 8-10 inches on most canoes. at the turn of the 19th century, canoe popularity meant that many livery canoes were the type called courting canoes. Their seating was similar to guide canoes, in that there was only one seat and the woman(or sport) sat in seat placed on the floor, often a folding seat with a back. The sports stood for fishing so they needed the room. Too bad about the canvas...it isn't too hard a job to replace. GRP is a quick fix, but holds water against the planking so rot occurs. From a paddling standpoint, canvas has the advantage that the planking, ribs and canvas can flex independently of one another. My first river experience in a W/C many years ago, proved how well they work. We went over a rock and I watched the bottom flex. When we turned the boat over, there was hardly a mark on the paint.

Although plastic has taken over from w/c, in the last 15-20 years a lot more people are building new ones and repairing old ones. Not the thousands a year that were produced by companies like Peterborough, Chestnut and Old Town, but still number in the 100's. And birch bark has enjoyed a huge resurgence. The Guide is a good boat, but they are heavy. In fact OT's tend to be a bit heavier because they use red cedar for planking instead of the white cedar the Canadian builders used.

1:43 p.m. on March 4, 2013 (EST)
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My Guide 18 creaks like an old ship in rough water.  The canvas needs to be replaced, along with about 12 ribs, and few planks.  But she is a great using boat and I don't worry about cosmetics.  I will be calling Rolland Thurlow in Atkinson, ME today to order some new cane seats, one for the Guide and one for a Bell Northwind.  I love the diamond bolts.

Before the latest trip I painted the boat with exterior white primer.  It is a blank canvas just right for drawing on with a Sharpie.  For the desert I drew a bighorn sheep, a handprint, a Hopi watersign, and a human form I had seen on a petroglyph that looks like a space man.

2:19 p.m. on March 4, 2013 (EST)
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I will go measure the decks... They are far longer than 8-10 inches. The glass isn't glued to the wood.... I know it seems as if it would be, but the black paint and the sun fixed that. The glass at this point is a form fitting skin almost like the canvass and water putty would be.

When that boat was upside down in the sun you could hear it pop, and you could have fried 500 eggs on it too.

Once that idea was handy sort of in a very odd way. There is this pond over by the Kanc Rt 112 called Red Eagle Pond, and I was interested in the floating bog with pitcher plants growing there. I saw Northern Pike in the water, Bass, Perch and Pickerl too, plus the plants I was after.

The boat was black.... I was buff, and could toss that boat around then..

Once i was done I lifted the boat on my knees in the typical way and threw it up on my shoulders and carried it to my old faded flat and dark green painted volvo wagon.... Once the boat was on the racks I noticed the boat appeared strange for some reason and it had seemed pretty heavy, which was odd, more than it's 80 pounds.

Taking the look it seemed as if the boat was too wide from the water line to the other water line almost like sponsons were there about 2.5 inches all the way around......

 Holly Jumping Blue Blazes!!!!!!!!!!!!!! it was LEECHES! There were a billion and 6 leeches covering the entire area of the boat that was under the water and THEY were still there!........

ewwwwwwwwwww yucky leeches..... Ahhhhhhhhh.

Now I have no idea what the 'Right' thing to do was, still don't, but what i did do, was with out throwing so much as a line over the boat was move the car out from under the tall white pines to a really sunny spot and let the sun cook them all off.... My poor car liked like it got egged.... I have never returned to that pond for fear of a capsize...

When I was just a wee lad i got into leeches myself, and i swore that would never happen again...... It hasn't either.

PPINE I punched a hole in my planking on lake george ny, and was kinda caught in a hard place for it. I had a glass kit on hand but no way to support it well, so I used what was there, a bit of paper birch as if it were waxed paper. It was ice in the bucket weather too, so I made a small fire to warm the area. That weather is cold enough to form ice on a puddle, so more heat was something I must have.

That patch is still there today, painted black on the outside and paper birch showing on the inside. Oh well...

Lunch is about up.... back with numbers later.

7:37 p.m. on March 4, 2013 (EST)
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Erich, I forgot til now, but that measurement is 22" if I use a soft tape for making clothing, made of cloth, and following the curve, but if I pull it straight then it measures 20".

This is from the foremost bend at the bang plate to the spray dodger.

8:53 p.m. on March 4, 2013 (EST)
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ppine said:

My Guide 18 creaks like an old ship in rough water.  The canvas needs to be replaced, along with about 12 ribs, and few planks.  But she is a great using boat and I don't worry about cosmetics.  I will be calling Rolland Thurlow in Atkinson, ME today to order some new cane seats, one for the Guide and one for a Bell Northwind.  I love the diamond bolts.

Before the latest trip I painted the boat with exterior white primer.  It is a blank canvas just right for drawing on with a Sharpie.  For the desert I drew a bighorn sheep, a handprint, a Hopi watersign, and a human form I had seen on a petroglyph that looks like a space man.

 I tried white on home made canvass and fir stringer kayaks. That white got tan fast. Sounds very cool though..... I have seen bark boats with petroglyphs carved on.

9:44 p.m. on March 4, 2013 (EST)
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Lodge pole, I checked with a canoe builder friend today, and he has a circa 1913 OTCA in his shop right now. It has the 20 inch decks(birch) and the seat hangers are covered with bungs. The ribs are not tapered. So your appear to be very original. Leeches aren't my favorite either. In Smithers, BC a few years ago, I visited the local canoe shop. One of the kids there wanted to try my Outrage that I had on the car. He paddled a local pond and the same thing happened. When we pulled it out, orange boat was covered with little black worms(leeches).

Nothing paddles with the same feel as a w/c canoe, though arguably, a birch bark is supposed to be even livelier.

The paint I've used on my w/c boats is Epiphanes. It is a Dutch company that specializes in marine paints. It is expensive, though on a canoe, you won't use much more than a quart for a 16' boat. The nice thing about it, is it cures quite hard. And diamond bolts are a really nice touch. These days, I use stainless screws on my wood gunneled boats and cup washers which make a nice finished look and keep the screw head from gouging the wood.

ppine, which section of the Green did you do?

12:13 p.m. on March 5, 2013 (EST)
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Erich,

The town of Green River to Mineral Bottom to avoid the jetboat ride to Moab. John Wesley Powell is one of my heroes.

12:36 p.m. on March 5, 2013 (EST)
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JW Powell is one of my heros, as well. While two decades earlier, Fremont promoted settling the West(in part inspired by his and his father-in-law's property holdings) Powell declared that the West could never support the population of the East. There simply wasn't enough water.

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