Bear defense for long trip in Colorado?

I am planing a long back packing trip up in the mountains of Colorado along the Continental Divide.  I plan to be in for ten days to two weeks.  My first question is, is it legal to carry a gun for bear defense in Colorado?  I have done some searching on the internet and cannot seem to find a clear answer to this.  Please, no debating here, I am just asking if it is legal or not.
If it is legal, I was wondering if anyone who has experience dealing with bears would think that a 12 gauge shotgun loaded to the max with 3" magnum slugs and 000 buck would be enough to stop a bear?
Please, let's not start the whole gun vs bear spray vs experience debate here.  Each person has their own ideology and I respect that.  I am trained marksman with over 30 years of back county survival training and hunting experience.  Most of my experience has been in tropical jungles though, where the animal dangers were Jaguars, Pumas, Anacondas, Venomous snakes, Crocodiles & Alligators etc.  I have done some camping in Colorado before when I was young, but never any real deep back country stuff.  I recently moved back to the US and want to start exploring our back country like have the jungles of Central and South America.
In my experience, there are few animals on this earth that will shake off the massive impact of a 12 gauge slug, and there is no better weapon for close quarter fast action combat then a short barrel 12 gauge with slugs and 000 buck.  But having never faced a bear before and I thought I would ask people that do have some experience with killing bears.

Frankly, I wouldn't worry about animal attacks. There is an interesting page in the latest National Geographic detailing the percentages of death and injuries in the US national parks, the biggest one is drowning, followed by falls. As I recall, animal attacks accounted for a miniscule .06%.

Now if you're afraid of meeting crazy people with guns, that's a different matter.

But why would you want to kill a bear instead of just making it go away?

A very touchy subject to bring up here on this site.

Firstly, of course try avoiding any encounter, then retreating before force. 

But respectfully worthy of a straight forward answer.

Contact ,

Colorado Parks and Wildlife ,

www.parks.state.co.us

Colorado Division of Wildlife

www.wildlife.state.co.us
 

CCW of a handgun, which is my initial choice, is heavily restricted in Co. and only available to Co. residents.  Open carry also restricted.

Of course you have heard of the less leathal deterants which I also take and in order,

- be bear aware, what does this mean ? Don't be stupid, which your previous outdoor experience probably leads to good thinking and behavior.

- cook away from camp, keeping cooking smell and mess to a minimum

- store food further (different location) away from camp & up high, in air tight bag

- ammonia sprayed (wide) around perimeter of camp

- thin line (aprrox. 2' - 2-/12' above ground) with a few bear bells on it forming a perimeter around tent

- cyalume glow stick (distraction)

- air horn (noise)

- Jumbo M5000's (more noise)

- bear spray

- hand gun e.g. G20SF with 180g+ XTP-JHP Hot

- shotgun e.g. 887 tactical with 3-1/2" shells of  HV (Accu-Tip) Slug, Buckhammer Slug, 0000 Buck shot 

- faster running shoes if there is two of you

- Bible

- magic carpet or ruby slippers

Oh and welcome to Trailspace

My first and biggest concern is not with bear, but the government.  I view the government as the biggest threat to my freedom, security and life.  My concern about what type of weapon to carry has to do more with answering any questions any regulations officer I encounter might have.  If you carry a large caliber long rifle for bear defense, they can accuse you of intending to poach large game animals like deer and elk.  If you carry a small caliber they do the same thing for small game animals. Since pistols are frowned upon, that only leaves shotguns.

The bottom line is this; I DON"T GO INTO THE DEEP WOODS WITHOUT A GUN, PERIOD! Weather it is for defense, survival or signaling for help, a gun can mean the difference between life and death in a wide range of scenarios.  I understand that a lot of people in this country have personal, ideological or cultural reason for their aversion to guns.  I have over thirty years of experience in deep woods travel and exploration and I have no aversion to guns for my own reasons.  I respect your reasons, please respect mine.

Welcome to Trailspace jungleexplorer,

I'm curious....why not just ask the state of Colorado?

As much as I like Trailspace, and a few other web forums, I have always found it best to directly consult the presiding authority with legal questions, especially of this nature.

Even if you find the info you seek on the web it may well be outdated since laws change all the time. I have found outdated info even on .gov websites.

Mike G.

Colorado Division of Wildlife: (303) 291-7480  

From your own profile, Pastor Bailey:

I am a conservationist that believes that God gave us the earth for our use, but not our abuse.  I am not an environmentalist that believes that man is an infection that is hurting mother nature. I believe that it is the responsibility of parents to teach children their children how to respectfully use God's creation.

Your question about killing bears and your profile statement clash like a 60 pound pack and a pair of spiked heels.

I am of the opinion that I would use noise first, like a bell, bear spray second, then if they don't run do your worst to survive.

I am also of the opinion that protecting yourself isn't the job of the government and asking them for permission is a good way for them to tell you NO.

The bell should be more then enough to keep the bears away combined with a bear can for food you should be fine.

Don't make the mistake of leaving out a closed hot chocolate packet. My brother was awakened to a bear outside his tent last time he went camping.

His rhodesian ridgeback was in the tent and ready to cause trouble. He had him contained by holding his mouth closed. The bear left on it's own after eating the hot chocolate packet but he could have had a real problem.

Following my advice may or may not be legal but it's probably lawful.

DrReaper said:

Following my advice may or may not be legal but it's probably lawful.

 Huh? That is somewhat of a contradiction don't ya think?

Rick-Pittsburgh said:

DrReaper said:

Following my advice may or may not be legal but it's probably lawful.

 Huh? That is somewhat of a contradiction don't ya think?

Yeah that is a funny statement, I laugh.

So when it is not legal how is it lawful ?  

Callahan said:

"

                                                                                                "

Now that's pretty funny.................thanks

if they come this big the guy might need a AA12

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4ebtj1jR7c

Hi Jungle:

Welcome to Trailspace! It sounds like you have some interesting experiences in your past that make your approach to the outdoors a lot different that what's usual here!  A few points to help out:

1. The reason you can't find an answer to your question "Is there a law against carrying a gun for bear defense in CO" is that it's quite general.  If you're hiking in the Continental Divide Trail, you're going to be walking through Wilderness Areas, National Parks, National Forests, State Parks, Private lands, etc...Each one of these will have different regulations as to the possession, use and registration of a firearm.

2. As to whether or not your firearm of choice would stop a bear - the answer is "probably." But your question, again, leaves a lot out.  Practically, there are a lot of things you should consider doing to avoid having to use the weapon in the first place.  Since you haven't lived in America for a while, it would help to familiarize yourself.  Callahan has given a lot of good advice.  Follow his advice and I doubt you'll use your shotgun.

3. Forgive me, as I'm not as familiar with guns as many others on the site, but you might actually be able to deploy a bear spray canister faster than a shotgun.  This depends on what sort of sling you'd use, how big your pack is, if you use trekking poles.  Hypothetically, you might be better protected by deterring a bear with a wide cloud of spray than  you would scrambling to deploy a shotgun, aiming, and firing.  This depends on how you're carrying the gun, and how good a shot you are.  I'm assuming that you're a good shot, and that the gun is quite accessible.  Even under these circumstances, you might be able to get the bear spray out more quickly. This isn't a question of ideology, it a question of which deploys more rapidly. 

We'd all love to see some pictures and hear about your adventures in the jungle!

I'm sure your past experiences have led you to different beliefs than a lot of "run of the mill" outdoor recreation enthusiasts. Though Trailspace isn't a forum to debate wider political or religious topics, we operate a welcoming and open site, with an implicit respect for differing points of view.

jungleexplorer said:

My first and biggest concern is not with bear, but the government.  I view the government as the biggest threat to my freedom, security and life...

So your reason for carrying a gun is to protect you from the government? You expect to bump into government agents trying to kill you while hiking in Colorado? Now THAT's starting to sound just a wee bit paranoid.

Oh; correction to my earlier post: I misplaced a decimal point - the actual risk of being killed in an animal attack is 0.6%

f_klock said:

From your own profile, Pastor Bailey:

I am a conservationist that believes that God gave us the earth for our use, but not our abuse.  I am not an environmentalist that believes that man is an infection that is hurting mother nature. I believe that it is the responsibility of parents to teach children their children how to respectfully use God's creation.

Your question about killing bears and your profile statement clash like a 60 pound pack and a pair of spiked heels.

 I never said I "want to kill a bear".  Whether it is a bear or a sparrow, I believe that one should only kill an animal out of necessity for survival.  I don't see how this conflicts with anything I have said.  Of course there are people that see humans as the aggressor.  They believe that since we humans have chosen to invade the bears natural habitat; the bear has a right to us lethal force to defend against us, but we don't don't have the right to use lethal force against them.  If (I said "IF") you are a person of this mind set, then nothing I will say will change you mind, because you see man as being equal with the animals.  I believe that God created man much superior to the animals and that He created  us to be a ruling class over all creation.  I believe God created man to rule as kings over the rest of creation. So, when I go out into the creation (other's call it "Nature"), I see it as me going for a walk around my kingdom (not the bear's natural habitat) and I see all the animals, including the bear, as my subjects. I am a good king because I do not frivolously kill my subjects for sport or my own pleasure (like the majority of the hunters in this country do).  But if one of my subjects rebels against my authority and tries to harm or kill me, I have the God given authority to put that subject to death for it's rebellion against me, just like any other king on this earth.  To me, this is the natural order of things.

So you see, there is not conflict in my statements.  You may not agree with me and there may be conflict there, but I have no conflict with myself.

peter1955 said:

jungleexplorer said:

My first and biggest concern is not with bear, but the government.  I view the government as the biggest threat to my freedom, security and life...

So your reason for carrying a gun is to protect you from the government? You expect to bump into government agents trying to kill you while hiking in Colorado? Now THAT's starting to sound just a wee bit paranoid.

Oh; correction to my earlier post: I misplaced a decimal point - the actual risk of being killed in an animal attack is 0.6%

 Your are taking my statements out of context.  You are a thousand times more likely to be arrested and fined for violating the law while hiking in the woods then getting killed by and animal.  That is why my first question is about what is "Legal".  The government will usually only exerciser it's solitary power to kill you if you resist their authority over you.   Since I am asking what is legal, I am clearly not planning on resisting the governments authority.  But being arrested and fined for doing something I did not know was not lawful, can be real downer.  I am more concerned with this happening then I am with getting attacked by a bear.  Does that clear it up for you?

Callahan said:

Rick-Pittsburgh said:

DrReaper said:

Following my advice may or may not be legal but it's probably lawful.

 Huh? That is somewhat of a contradiction don't ya think?

 

Yeah that is a funny statement, I laugh.

So when it is not legal how is it lawful ?  

legal verses lawful. This country is full of bureaucrats. They seem to think they can make law. When in fact all they can do is pass codes. The law comes from the Constitution of the United States of America and the Constitutions of the States. Call me old fashioned but I think codes cannot take away your rights, no matter how well intentioned. If they are not voted on they are more like suggestions. 

I have over fifty years of experience in the wilderness of BC and Alberta and some in Canada's northern territories with bears, including Grizzlies. I am also a highly trained firearms user and build specific guns for bear defence. Yours is a legitimate query, however, TS is largely a site where urban and suburban hikers interact and very few here have any experience or real knowledge of bears.

 Forget bear bells, these are for hippy wannabes who are more familar with sipping lattes and debating the supposed virtues of "trail runners" than for serious wilderness use. Bear spray CAN work, OFTEN is more of a liability than a defence and much of the promotion it receives in the popular media comes from essentially urban academics who have a financial stake in the spray manufacturers.

I prefer not to kill bears,they are too easy to hunt here in BC and my wife will not eat the meat, so, I kill elk, deer and grouse, by preference and would kill moose, wild sheep and goats. I do not and have never killed an edible animal that I was not going to and have not eaten, however, I am proud of being a skilled hunter and REAL "conservationist".

So, while I cannot speak to the laws of a foreign nation or state, as in Colorado, I CAN give experience-based advice on what gun-load to carry. I would NEVER use ANY type of buckshot on ANY bear, that is asking for trouble. I would ONLY use a 12 ga. with BRENNEKE slugs and these WILL work, I often carry them in the shotgun barrels of my two "combination guns" when backpacking out the meat from an animal I have shot.

Quite honestly, I no longer will use a shotgun for primary bear defence and a handgun is largely useless in this capacity. I use a heavy caliber CRF bolt action rifle I built for this purpose and "controlled expansion" bullets. I can make suggestions for this, based on many experiences with both Grizzly and Black Bear kills since 1956, but, will not do so in the open forum as TS is not really about guns.

As it happens, while born, raised and living in the most "bear rich" jurisdiction in North America along with SE Alaska, I do not usually carry a gun while backpacking and never have. BUT, I respect your decision to do so . If, I can assist further, as I prefer not to argue the point in this venue, my e-mail is  wodaxe@msn.com.

I agree about the buck shot, you will just make him mad. Slugs will do the job. I think there are several brands of slug that wiil do the job. You need lots of penetration, not just knock down power. I would try one of the flash bang type rounds first. A loud noise and a big flash of light will scare most bears away. Then you have given him every chance before you kill him. Not only will you have killed a bear, you will have set yourself up for quite a bit of scrutiny. There will be lots of people to talk to and maybe a fine or loss of your firearm. Better than death or a mauling but not the relaxing hike you were planning. Scent is the secret, contain your food and waste properly and the bears will not bother you.

jungleexplorer said:

I am trained marksman with over 30 years of back county survival training and hunting experience.  Most of my experience has been in tropical jungles though, where the animal dangers were Jaguars, Pumas, Anacondas, Venomous snakes, Crocodiles & Alligators etc.  

In my experience, there are few animals on this earth that will shake off the massive impact of a 12 gauge slug, and there is no better weapon for close quarter fast action combat then a short barrel 12 gauge with slugs and 000 buck.  

 So what was your employment / reasoning for need of, trained marksman with over 30 years of back county survival training and hunting experience ?

What are some of the experiences when, in your experience, there are few animals on this earth that will shake off the massive impact of a 12 gauge slug ?

Not looking for great or graphic detail, just looking for some simple explanations for better understanding.

Many thanks.

hotdogman said:

I agree about the buck shot, you will just make him mad. Slugs will do the job. I think there are several brands of slug that wiil do the job. You need lots of penetration, not just knock down power. I would try one of the flash bang type rounds first. A loud noise and a big flash of light will scare most bears away. Then you have given him every chance before you kill him. Not only will you have killed a bear, you will have set yourself up for quite a bit of scrutiny. There will be lots of people to talk to and maybe a fine or loss of your firearm. Better than death or a mauling but not the relaxing hike you were planning. Scent is the secret, contain your food and waste properly and the bears will not bother you.

 Flash bang like "Dragons Breathe" ?

The best defense from bears is to protect your food either by hanging it well, or in a personal bear proof canister.

The chances of you seeing a bear up close enough to worry about (or as a photo op) is very low - so long as you haven't tempted it with food it can steal.  They are a large stomach on 4 legs and except for an encounter with a grizzly bear (unlikely in Colorado) you will be seen as a harmless nuisance by the bear, and will be avoided - unless you have unprotected food for them.  If you don't have it controlled hanging in the air or in a canister, the bear figures it is fair game.  It is his backyard after all.

Just don't argue over who owns it - the bear thinks it does. 

You are not food.  If you were, you wouldn't stand a chance.  If a predator,  catching game unawares is how they make their living.

If you think it too unsafe to be out there without a weapon, I can not for the life of me figure why you would want to chance it being there voluntarily.  I would not be anywhere within miles of anybody that I know is packing.  By far they are the most dangerous animal in the wild.

Seth said:

Hi Jungle:

Welcome to Trailspace! It sounds like you have some interesting experiences in your past that make your approach to the outdoors a lot different that what's usual here!  A few points to help out:

view.

Thanks for the welcome.

Seth said:

1. The reason you can't find an answer to your question "Is there a law against carrying a gun for bear defense in CO" is that it's quite general.  If you're hiking in the Continental Divide Trail, you're going to be walking through Wilderness Areas, National Parks, National Forests, State Parks, Private lands, etc...Each one of these will have different regulations as to the possession, use and registration of a firearm.

view.

So basically, it is impossible to stay in full compliance with the law because the laws are so extensive and complicated and may actually be in conflict with one another depending on where I travel on a single trip. WOW! That is really discouraging. Makes me want to go back to other countries where I actually have some freedom.

Seth said:

2. As to whether or not your firearm of choice would stop a bear - the answer is "probably." But your question, again, leaves a lot out.  Practically, there are a lot of things you should consider doing to avoid having to use the weapon in the first place.  Since you haven't lived in America for a while, it would help to familiarize yourself.  Callahan has given a lot of good advice.  Follow his advice and I doubt you'll use your shotgun.

view.

I am fairly confident that a 12 gauge shotgun will stop any bear in Colorado. I actually found this forum doing a search. I found this thread, http://www.trailspace.com/forums/backcountry/topics/32175.html. There were several people that commented on this thread that were very knowledgeable about bears. The thread was closed so I had to start another one, because the issue of using a shotgun was not covered in the thread. Of course I will take all recommend precautions to avoid getting into a confrontation with a bear. I was camping up in Colorado two years ago at park and a bear came into my camp during the night and started crunching my water bottle that was on the table. I had a gun with me, but I simply yelled, Ya! Bear! Get out of here! He ran off with no problem. But if he would have attacked, well it would have not been good for him or me, because he would have been dead and I would have ended up in jail. But it is better to be judged by twelve then carried by six, I always say.

Seth said:

3. Forgive me, as I'm not as familiar with guns as many others on the site, but you might actually be able to deploy a bear spray canister faster than a shotgun.  This depends on what sort of sling you'd use, how big your pack is, if you use trekking poles.  Hypothetically, you might be better protected by deterring a bear with a wide cloud of spray than  you would scrambling to deploy a shotgun, aiming, and firing.  This depends on how you're carrying the gun, and how good a shot you are.  I'm assuming that you're a good shot, and that the gun is quite accessible.  Even under these circumstances, you might be able to get the bear spray out more quickly. This isn't a question of ideology, it a question of which deploys more rapidly view.

I personally would feel more confident that I could defend my self with a gun quicker then a can of spray. But I have been using guns since I was six years old and my father, who was a gunsmith, gun safety instructor and a law officer, trained me very well. I can see where people that have no or very little experience in handling guns may question their ability to deploy them rapidly, and they would be right to do so considering their limit experience. I however do not fall into this category.  

Seth said:

We'd all love to see some pictures and hear about your adventures in the jungle!

I'm sure your past experiences have led you to different beliefs than a lot of "run of the mill" outdoor recreation enthusiasts. Though Trailspace isn't a forum to debate wider political or religious topics, we operate a welcoming and open site, with an implicit respect for differing points of view.

You cans see some of my pictures at www(dot)jungleexplorer(dot)net. I have done my best to avoid debating here.  I simply share my beliefs and ask people to respect my right to have them. Thanks for the advice.

No problem!  Advice is all I have to give these days!

You make an interesting point:

So basically, it is impossible to stay in full compliance with the law because the laws are so extensive and complicated and may actually be in conflict with one another depending on where I travel on a single trip. WOW! That is really discouraging. Makes me want to go back to other countries where I actually have some freedom.

It's not impossible to stay in compliance - but it is difficult.  A little research should show what is permitted where.  Callahan has given some great websites, and a call to a district ranger should be totally unambiguous.

Travel safely and share some reports from your Colorado trip here!

Dewey said:

I have over fifty years of experience in the wilderness of BC and Alberta and some in Canada's northern territories with bears, including Grizzlies. I am also a highly trained firearms user and build specific guns for bear defence. Yours is a legitimate query, however, TS is largely a site where urban and suburban hikers interact and very few here have any experience or real knowledge of bears.

 Forget bear bells, these are for hippy wannabes who are more familar with sipping lattes and debating the supposed virtues of "trail runners" than for serious wilderness use. Bear spray CAN work, OFTEN is more of a liability than a defence and much of the promotion it receives in the popular media comes from essentially urban academics who have a financial stake in the spray manufacturers.

I prefer not to kill bears,they are too easy to hunt here in BC and my wife will not eat the meat, so, I kill elk, deer and grouse, by preference and would kill moose, wild sheep and goats. I do not and have never killed an edible animal that I was not going to and have not eaten, however, I am proud of being a skilled hunter and REAL "conservationist".

So, while I cannot speak to the laws of a foreign nation or state, as in Colorado, I CAN give experience-based advice on what gun-load to carry. I would NEVER use ANY type of buckshot on ANY bear, that is asking for trouble. I would ONLY use a 12 ga. with BRENNEKE slugs and these WILL work, I often carry them in the shotgun barrels of my two "combination guns" when backpacking out the meat from an animal I have shot.

Quite honestly, I no longer will use a shotgun for primary bear defence and a handgun is largely useless in this capacity. I use a heavy caliber CRF bolt action rifle I built for this purpose and "controlled expansion" bullets. I can make suggestions for this, based on many experiences with both Grizzly and Black Bear kills since 1956, but, will not do so in the open forum as TS is not really about guns.

As it happens, while born, raised and living in the most "bear rich" jurisdiction in North America along with SE Alaska, I do not usually carry a gun while backpacking and never have. BUT, I respect your decision to do so . If, I can assist further, as I prefer not to argue the point in this venue, my e-mail is  wodaxe@msn.com.

 Thank you for your answer. I respect your advice as it comes from a person who understands true conservationism (not environmentalism). Never having killed a bear and not knowing how they react immediately after being wounded.  My thinking on the buckshot was that if a bear surprised me and charged and I had to get off a shot really fast without taking careful aim, I would have a better chance of hitting him with buckshot which which might stop and stun him long enough for meto take aim and put a slug into a vital area.  That was my thinking.  But like I said, I don't know how bear react when first wounded.  Would it stun him? Would he stop for a second?  I don't know, because I have no experience hunting bears.

speacock said:

The best defense from bears is to protect your food either by hanging it well, or in a personal bear proof canister.

The chances of you seeing a bear up close enough to worry about (or as a photo op) is very low - so long as you haven't tempted it with food it can steal.  They are a large stomach on 4 legs and except for an encounter with a grizzly bear (unlikely in Colorado) you will be seen as a harmless nuisance by the bear, and will be avoided - unless you have unprotected food for them.  If you don't have it controlled hanging in the air or in a canister, the bear figures it is fair game.  It is his backyard after all.

Just don't argue over who owns it - the bear thinks it does. 

You are not food.  If you were, you wouldn't stand a chance.  If a predator,  catching game unawares is how they make their living.

If you think it too unsafe to be out there without a weapon, I can not for the life of me figure why you would want to chance it being there voluntarily.  I would not be anywhere within miles of anybody that I know is packing.  By far they are the most dangerous animal in the wild.

 This commentary confuses AVOIDANCE of bear issues with DEFENCE from an aggressive bear, these are NOT the same things, Avoidance, IS the best option for backpackers, however, in some situations, one NEEDS an appropriate DEFENCE and the BEST method is a gun.

 The comment ...You are not food... is not correct and "Ursus Americanus", in particular, will and does prey upon humans. Those, who discount or mock the dangers of Black Bears simply do not know whereof they speak; these are apex predators and can be VERY dangerous to humans.

When supervising young silviculture workers, mostly university kids from the western US, for some years here in BC and in giving seminars to tourists, again, mostly Americans, in the Rocky Mountains of Alberta, these while employed with the respective Forest Services, I often carried a gun and I certainly  was NOT ...dangerous..., actually, I was protective.

Too many hikers make sweeping statements about bears and other such issues with which they have little or no in-depth field experience and this can result in others behaving in bear country in ways that can increase the danger of an attack.

I would not bother to carry on the trek the gentleman is considering and would probably go with two, new cans of "CounterAssault", but, given his ability and preference for a firearm, I see no real reason why he should not.

The majority of shotgun slugs are too soft and not shaped to penetrate deeply enough into bear tissue to be really effective and their use can result in a wounded and VERY dangerous bear. Brennekes work and are the best choice in this situation.

jungleexplorer said:

Dewey said:

I have over fifty years of experience in the wilderness of BC and Alberta and some in Canada's northern territories with bears, including Grizzlies. I am also a highly trained firearms user and build specific guns for bear defence. Yours is a legitimate query, however, TS is largely a site where urban and suburban hikers interact and very few here have any experience or real knowledge of bears.

 Forget bear bells, these are for hippy wannabes who are more familar with sipping lattes and debating the supposed virtues of "trail runners" than for serious wilderness use. Bear spray CAN work, OFTEN is more of a liability than a defence and much of the promotion it receives in the popular media comes from essentially urban academics who have a financial stake in the spray manufacturers.

I prefer not to kill bears,they are too easy to hunt here in BC and my wife will not eat the meat, so, I kill elk, deer and grouse, by preference and would kill moose, wild sheep and goats. I do not and have never killed an edible animal that I was not going to and have not eaten, however, I am proud of being a skilled hunter and REAL "conservationist".

So, while I cannot speak to the laws of a foreign nation or state, as in Colorado, I CAN give experience-based advice on what gun-load to carry. I would NEVER use ANY type of buckshot on ANY bear, that is asking for trouble. I would ONLY use a 12 ga. with BRENNEKE slugs and these WILL work, I often carry them in the shotgun barrels of my two "combination guns" when backpacking out the meat from an animal I have shot.

Quite honestly, I no longer will use a shotgun for primary bear defence and a handgun is largely useless in this capacity. I use a heavy caliber CRF bolt action rifle I built for this purpose and "controlled expansion" bullets. I can make suggestions for this, based on many experiences with both Grizzly and Black Bear kills since 1956, but, will not do so in the open forum as TS is not really about guns.

As it happens, while born, raised and living in the most "bear rich" jurisdiction in North America along with SE Alaska, I do not usually carry a gun while backpacking and never have. BUT, I respect your decision to do so . If, I can assist further, as I prefer not to argue the point in this venue, my e-mail is  wodaxe@msn.com.

 Thank you for your answer. I respect your advice as it comes from a person who understands true conservationism (not environmentalism). Never having killed a bear and not knowing how they react immediately after being wounded.  My thinking on the buckshot was that if a bear surprised me and charged and I had to get off a shot really fast without taking careful aim, I would have a better chance of hitting him with buckshot which which might stop and stun him long enough for meto take aim and put a slug into a vital area.  That was my thinking.  But like I said, I don't know how bear react when first wounded.  Would it stun him? Would he stop for a second?  I don't know, because I have no experience hunting bears.

 Buckshot MAY blind a bear, OR, just aggravate him and make things much worse. It will not penetrate the heavy pelage and especially if the fur is watersoaked and/or caked with mud, I have experiemented with it and would not even consider using it.

Place a Brenneke into the chest cavity and this will USUALLY drop the bear "bang flop", but, while bears are easy to knock down, they often get right back up and then want to "rock and roll" and these ARE VERY dangerous animals.

Stopping an attacking bear is the same as with an attacking human. I was trained to shoot twice into "the center of mass" and then finish with a headshot to the brain cavity. I prefer to try to rupture the Aorta when shooting ANY animal and place my bullets accordingly as this will result in the rapid onset of "hypovolemic shock"and a reduced flow of blood to the brain which slows and stops the animal quicker than anything other than a direct CNS hit, not easy when confronted by a bear with a bad attitude.

Callahan said:

jungleexplorer said:

I am trained marksman with over 30 years of back county survival training and hunting experience.  Most of my experience has been in tropical jungles though, where the animal dangers were Jaguars, Pumas, Anacondas, Venomous snakes, Crocodiles & Alligators etc.  

In my experience, there are few animals on this earth that will shake off the massive impact of a 12 gauge slug, and there is no better weapon for close quarter fast action combat then a short barrel 12 gauge with slugs and 000 buck.  

 So what was your employment / reasoning for need of, trained marksman with over 30 years of back county survival training and hunting experience ?

What are some of the experiences when, in your experience, there are few animals on this earth that will shake off the massive impact of a 12 gauge slug ?

Not looking for great or graphic detail, just looking for some simple explanations for better understanding.

Many thanks.

I am not sure why asked this question or why you find it necessary to ask me to explain my background and experience.  Either you are curious about me as a person or you think I am lying and are challenging me to prove my experience.  Either way, it is off topic.

Seth said:

No problem!  Advice is all I have to give these days!

You make an interesting point:

So basically, it is impossible to stay in full compliance with the law because the laws are so extensive and complicated and may actually be in conflict with one another depending on where I travel on a single trip. WOW! That is really discouraging. Makes me want to go back to other countries where I actually have some freedom.

It's not impossible to stay in compliance - but it is difficult.  A little research should show what is permitted where.  Callahan has given some great websites, and a call to a district ranger should be totally unambiguous.

Travel safely and share some reports from your Colorado trip here!

 I guess I could call them.  I like written stuff better though.  I looked at their website and could not find an answer.  I planned a river trip last year down a river in Texas and did research on waterway rights.  After reading no less then 200 pages of laws and case history, I was so confused, I called the Texas Department of Parks and Wildlife (TDPW).  They were more the happy to talk to me and tell it was fine for me to go down the river, but when I asked them to give me a written state of this fact so I could present it to any land owner or police officer I that may question my actions, they refused.  They claimed that only the State Attorneys Office could issue such a letter.  Of course the State Attorneys Office said it was the jurisdiction of the TDPW.  After two months of research it boils down to this, the court has the jurisdiction and the only way to find out what your rights are, is to get arrested or sued and go to court and see what the judge says.  I kid you not!

Dewey said:

speacock said:

The majority of shotgun slugs are too soft and not shaped to penetrate deeply enough into bear tissue to be really effective and their use can result in a wounded and VERY dangerous bear. Brennekes work and are the best choice in this situation.

 

My biggest concern is with the legal question and not having my defense weapon confused with a hunting weapon by some green behind the ears environmentalism brainwashed game warden. I have met a lot of really nice old school game wardens and par rangers, but these new guys coming of these brainwashing machines (schools) need a reality check big time. Unfortunately, although they may be young, naive and misinformed, they still have the power to cause a lot of trouble. I spend as more time and energy avoiding them then I do bears. My hope is that a short barrel defense shotgun will not be as readily looked upon as a potential hunting weapon, like say a 300 Win Mag.

Thanks for the advice on slugs for bear. I will look into Brennekes. What is really sad is that I am having to have the conversation at all. I should, in this country especially, have the the freedom to just go hiking and carry what I want without question. It is sad that I cannot.

If you are that scared of bears... Why go? They were there first, it's their home. If you really need a feel a need to kill or to protect,, the mob is looking for a few good men. Rums

Rumple said:

If you are that scared of bears... Why go? They were there first, it's their home. If you really need a feel a need to kill or to protect,, the mob is looking for a few good men. Rums

Yup, in spite of all the information posted here pointing out how unlikely you are to have a problem with bears if you just take reasonable precautions to avoid them, this has turned into just one more pro-gun thread.

Jungleexplorer just sounds like another person so terrified of what he might encounter in the bush that he's looking for some justification to carry his personal security blanket with him at all times. His fear of the unknown seems to be the problem. If he doesn't know what to do to keep himself safe, he could listen to the advice given here by people who have the experience, instead of trying to justify his own predetermined  (yet illogical) agenda.

I've met three kinds of hunters; those who kill for food or out of other necessity, those who kill as a real sport (bow hunters v. grizzly for example - not much sport in gunning down a deer with an M16), and those who get an orgasmic pleasure out of watching something die. The last is related to defeating the fear, I think.

But here, the fear has already been clearly defined - je says he is afraid of the government, and that's why he wants to carry a gun into the mountains so he can kill bears. That lack of logic leads me to believe we're dealing with just another case of incipient paranoia.

And sorry Dewey, but the stats don't back you up. Bear spray works in 90-95% of the cases:

http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/bear_cougar/bear/files/JWM_BearSprayAlaska.pdf

Smith et al. Efficacy of Bear Spray

"...In 7% (5 of 71) of bear spray incidents, wind was reported
to have interfered with spray accuracy, although it reached
bears in all cases. In 14% (10 of 71) of bear spray incidents,
users reported spray having negative side effects upon
themselves, ranging from minor irritation (11%, 8 of 71) to
near incapacitation (3%, 2 of 71).
On 10 occasions (14%, 10 of 71) the sight and sound
associated with spray release were reported as key factors in
changing bear behavior. In 67 spray incidents for which
distance was reported, the mean distance between user and
bear at the time of spraying was 4 m (range 1-15 m). One
user commented that he had ''squarely hit the bear'' at 10 m,
although at distances .5 m success was variable. When
bears were sprayed at 3 m (33 cases), the spray always
enveloped the bear, with only one resulting in a failure to
deter the attacking bear.
Three persons (2% of the 175 persons involved in 71
separate incidents) suffered injury by bears that had been
sprayed with bear deterrent. One person halted the
attacking bear by spraying it at close range in the face,
and the other 2 persons were unable to spray a second dose
because the initial attack knocked the spray canister from
their hands. Nonetheless, only one of the 3 reported that the
spray had failed to protect them. No mechanical failures of
spray canisters were reported in the 71 cases.
[...]
In Alaska, bear spray was highly effective in
dealing with all 3 species of North American bears, although
more data on polar bear responses is needed. Persons
working and recreating in bear habitat should feel confident
that they are safe if carrying bear spray. Although bear spray
was 92% effective by our definition of success, it is
important to note that 98% of persons carrying it were
uninjured after a close encounter with bears."

Try to get those odds with a shotgun with less than a few seconds to get the gun raised, cocked and the shot fired! And I can deploy bear spray off my belt a lot faster than you can get out your shotgun.

peter1955 said:

Rumple said:

If you are that scared of bears... Why go? They were there first, it's their home. If you really need a feel a need to kill or to protect,, the mob is looking for a few good men. Rums

Yup, in spite of all the information posted here pointing out how unlikely you are to have a problem with bears if you just take reasonable precautions to avoid them, this has turned into just one more pro-gun thread.

Jungleexplorer just sounds like another person so terrified of what he might encounter in the bush that he's looking for some justification to carry his personal security blanket with him at all times. His fear of the unknown seems to be the problem. If he doesn't know what to do to keep himself safe, he could listen to the advice given here by people who have the experience, instead of trying to justify his own predetermined  (yet illogical) agenda.

I've met three kinds of hunters; those who kill for food or out of other necessity, those who kill as a real sport (bow hunters v. grizzly for example - not much sport in gunning down a deer with an M16), and those who get an orgasmic pleasure out of watching something die. The last is related to defeating the fear, I think.

But here, the fear has already been clearly defined - je says he is afraid of the government, and that's why he wants to carry a gun into the mountains so he can kill bears. That lack of logic leads me to believe we're dealing with just another case of incipient paranoia.

And sorry Dewey, but the stats don't back you up. Bear spray works in 90-95% of the cases:

http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/bear_cougar/bear/files/JWM_BearSprayAlaska.pdf

Smith et al. Efficacy of Bear Spray

"...In 7% (5 of 71) of bear spray incidents, wind was reported
to have interfered with spray accuracy, although it reached
bears in all cases. In 14% (10 of 71) of bear spray incidents,
users reported spray having negative side effects upon
themselves, ranging from minor irritation (11%, 8 of 71) to
near incapacitation (3%, 2 of 71).
On 10 occasions (14%, 10 of 71) the sight and sound
associated with spray release were reported as key factors in
changing bear behavior. In 67 spray incidents for which
distance was reported, the mean distance between user and
bear at the time of spraying was 4 m (range 1-15 m). One
user commented that he had ''squarely hit the bear'' at 10 m,
although at distances .5 m success was variable. When
bears were sprayed at 3 m (33 cases), the spray always
enveloped the bear, with only one resulting in a failure to
deter the attacking bear.
Three persons (2% of the 175 persons involved in 71
separate incidents) suffered injury by bears that had been
sprayed with bear deterrent. One person halted the
attacking bear by spraying it at close range in the face,
and the other 2 persons were unable to spray a second dose
because the initial attack knocked the spray canister from
their hands. Nonetheless, only one of the 3 reported that the
spray had failed to protect them. No mechanical failures of
spray canisters were reported in the 71 cases.
[...]
In Alaska, bear spray was highly effective in
dealing with all 3 species of North American bears, although
more data on polar bear responses is needed. Persons
working and recreating in bear habitat should feel confident
that they are safe if carrying bear spray. Although bear spray
was 92% effective by our definition of success, it is
important to note that 98% of persons carrying it were
uninjured after a close encounter with bears."

Try to get those odds with a shotgun with less than a few seconds to get the gun raised, cocked and the shot fired! And I can deploy bear spray off my belt a lot faster than you can get out your shotgun.

This also seems to be one of those threads where people try and tell other people what they should and should not carry on a backpacking trip in the back country.

Ya know, if the guy want's to carry a gun in the back country he should carry a gun in the back country.

The OP asked this question:

"My first question is, is it legal to carry a gun for bear defense in Colorado?"

and then asked:

"If it is legal, I was wondering if anyone who has experience dealing with bears would think that a 12 gauge shotgun loaded to the max with 3" magnum slugs and 000 buck would be enough to stop a bear?"

But also asked:

"Please, no debating here, I am just asking if it is legal or not."

and

"Please, let's not start the whole gun vs bear spray vs experience debate here. Each person has their own ideology and I respect that."

He was not asking Anyone's opinion on if any of us think that he should or should not carry in the back county.  Yea know, if ya don't want to carry then don't but please do not presume you should be telling others not to carry if it is their wish.

And ya know what...............big guns make big booms and will most often scare a bear away with out even aiming it at them.  In the event that it does not scare it off it is one more option in a vast array options that can be used in defence of ones self whether anyone likes it or not.

We should stick to the OP's Questions.  If you want to open a thread about if one thinks one should carry in the back country then have at it. IMHO.

Good one apeman! Not not dragons breath, because of the fire danger in the woods. It would work great if it was wet or snow covered but a twelve foot flame would prob scare a bear. There are many novelty or special shells out there, some make a loud noise and a bright flash without the long flame. Some of the copper sabot slugs get amazing penetration, but most lead slugs deliver knockdown power not penetration. Buckshot would be less than useless, might as well throw rocks. A bear I saw killed in nc had eleven inches of fat, after you got through the fur and skin. He weighed almost nine hundred pounds and was the state record for years. He absorbed six twelve gauge slugs before being hit in the back of the neck point blank with the SEVENTH twelve gauge slug. These were pro bear hunters imported to kill this bear. He was killing a hog daily from nahunta pork center. The bear killed several of the twenty or so dogs before the four men shooting at it could put it down. My point is you are much better off avoiding or scaring a bear away, because once you injure him it becomes a fight to the death. Be smart with your food and camp location but carry your gun hoping you dont have to use it.

You're right apeman. My apologies.

My point was this:

• Is it necessary to carry a gun if you're afraid of being attacked by bears? The best option is to not get into a situation where you'll get attacked.  If you can't figure out how to do it, carrying a gun is a poor option.

• Whether or not it's legal to carry a gun in the bush in Colorado is dictated by the law. To find that out, all the OP has to do is check the statutes in Colorado. Which makes me wonder why he comes here looking for advice.

Rumple, your comparison of hunters to ...the mob... is highly offensive and you need to apologize and remove it from this thread.

Peter, I do not form my opinions on bears or any other aspect of outdoor activities on "stats", but, from actual field experience. I also know some of those involved in the collection of these "stats" and what their real agenda is in both economic and political terms and thus am not impressed by their statements.

Now, you have a lot to say here on bears. So, tell us, what is your actual field experience with bears and how many years have you worked in the wilderness in bear country, dealiing with bears regularly.

What is/was your occupation as you seem to base your opinions on "stats" from jurisdictions where you do not live and work? Perhaps, your "knowledge"of this issue lacks any actual experience with bears and is simply the biased opinion of an urban recreationist?

I can cite many actual close encounters with both Grizzlies and Black Bears since my first in 1956 and I know quite a number of professionals in various field positions with decades of "hands-on" experience with bears who agree with me. Have you ever actually touched a bear and perhaps skinned one?

The comment about a deer being killed with an M-16 is ludicrous as these rifles are not "legal" for deer hunting here in Canada or in most US states.

The assertion that hunting a Grizzly with a bow is somehow more sporting is equally foolish as this can result in a wounded and thus very dangerous bear more than using an appropriate rifle-bullet will. These two comments reveal your level of "knowledge" about this issue.

I wonder why you insist on making comments here that are false and not helpful to the guy who simply asked for advice?

Hotdog, your anecdote about the NC bear and slugs illustrates what I am trying to get across here. The common "Foster" slug in shotguns will NOT penetrate to the extent needed for a quick, clean kill and I would never use one or recommend that others depend on them. A controlled-expansion rifle bullet from a .30 caliber and up rifle is a far more reliable bear stopper and the rifle is no harder to carry than a shotgun.

I find that some here seem to be more concerned with attempting to vilify others than with the experience-based factual advice that the OP asked for and this has made this thread "go south" as so many "bear" threads seem to on backpacking forums. Too bad, this is an important topic and one where field experience should be the basis of advice.

If, someone does not like guns or hunting or bears, then, maybe avoiding the thread, rather than making foolish insinuations about the courage of persons whom they do not know and have never even met might be the best alternative?

While avoidance of bear encounters is, as I have repeatedly posted on TS, the best alternative, the fact is that one cannot always do so. There are times/places when one needs a defence tool to deal with aggressive bears and an appropriate gun if used by a trained person is the BEST option. I am more than happy to teach anyone how to do this and I am not sure that "Quickdraw Pete" here is faster into action than I am.

What next, cap pistols at ten paces to see who gets the rootbeer popsicle?

I really appreciate all the the advice from the intelligent reasonable people that have commented on this thread.  Unfortunately it has been hijacked by a bunch of mindless environmentalism animal rights robots, that have no reading comprehension and zero respect for anyone else's right to believe differently then they do.  All they know how to do is regurgitate mantra from their movements agenda, quote phony stats created by other people in their movement and skew or misquote anyone's comments they don't agree with in order to insult them or vilify them.  I trust anyone who has a brain to see right through these people. I kindly asked them to respect my own beliefs on this subject and tried my best not to say anything to directly demonize them up until now.  

I have clearly articulated what I came here looking for and why I believe the way I do.  It was not my wish to enter into a debate about this and I will not.  I have received the advice I came here seeking and now I shall leave.

Before I go though, I want to leave you with one final thought.  Most people have a very narrow mindset based on their social environment or the culture they grew up.  This is known as Social Conditioning.  I call it cultural brainwashing. Most people in the USA have severe case of cultural brainwashing.  They see everything from the very narrow scope of the American society.  I do not have this affliction because I grew up living in multiple other countries. I have lived in six other countries throughout my life.  I am fluent in four other languages and speak several dialects.  I have studied and been involved in politics and government in three countries and have been sought out for advice on policy and law by officials from mayors, to governors, to federal congressman and supreme court justices.

You children (mentally) can squabble all you want from your limited isolated environmental mindset. But please try to understand that there is a big world out there that has a very long history.  These modern statistics that come out these day are very skewed because they are created by people that are not looking for fact, but are trying to promote their own agenda.  Your best way to find truth is to study history and see what has worked through history, not just your little isolated lifetime.

You can gamble your life with a can of bear spray or bells or pop guns if you want to, but there is only one 100% for sure way to assure that a bear will not kill and eat you, and that is if it is dead.  Anyone that would try to argue this fact is stupid and beyond help.  I have never been to Vegas and I do not gamble with money, and I especially will not gamble with my life, by hoping that a can of spray will keep a killing machine (bear) from terminating my life. There is an old saying that goes, "There are old pilots, and there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots."

I took my family to see, The Avengers, last night and there is this one part where, Loki, is saying to the Hulk who is coming after him, "Stop! I am a god you dim witted" that is all he gets out before the Hulk grabs him by the feet and beats him on the floor like a rag doll.  If a bear wants to kill you, no can of spray or pop gun is going to stop him and if you don't have a gun that can kill him, you will be just like Loki standing there proud and confident until the bear tosses you around like a rag doll.  There have been people who thought they understood bears so well they could live with them.  They ended up as bear poop.  

Bears are wild and unpredictable animals.  Bears are the single most deadlist animals in the world.  They have no weak points.  They are as strong as an elephant, they can run like a cheetah, they can swim like a fish and climb like a monkey.  And if they want to kill you, they will, unless you kill them first. PERIOD!  These are the historical and undeniable facts. You can quote statistics all you want, but it will never change those facts.

Dewey I respect you immensely. You and I are men of experience.  I feel that I should come clean though, as I have not been entirely up front about my experience on this thread. I am not as ignorant about bears as I let on. When coming to new forums, I like to fain a little ignorance so people will be more open an honest and not feel threatened by my experience.  I have spent some time up in the NWT.  I was in Hay River in 2002 and Inuvik in 2006.  In 2006 my son and I were camped out along the Dempster Highway on are way back to the US. We were camped in one of those clearings that go down to the river (I am sure you know what I am talking about).  We were sitting across from each other around a campfire warming up after an night so cold that we had to wait for our pillows to thaw out so we could get them unstuck from our tent. All the sudden my son turned white and his eyes got as big as saucers.  I spun around and there, charging us at full speed, was a huge Grizzly (I would guess, close to 2000 pounds).  My son, in his nativity had put are defense gun in the truck because we were loading up, so there was nothing to do but pray, Oh Jesus!  The bear came all the way from the river to about 20 feet from us and then suddenly veered off into the thick underbrush.  Of all the people on this forum, I think you might be the only one to know what it feels like to be in that situation, and why I feel the way I do about this subject.

Here is a picture I took the night before in this same camping spot. I was so cold that got up about 2:00am to start a fire to keep from freezing ( I am not big on cold having spent most of my life in the tropics).  The aurora borealis was really active. I got my camera (which I kept inside my coat to keep the cold from draining the battery) out and snapped a couple of pictures before the cold killed the battery.

After I was sure the bear was gone and my son loaded up in the truck I went and back tracked the bear.  He had the biggest paw print I had seen.  Larger then a full size soccer ball.  Here is a picture of a paw print  from another medium size grizzly we saw from a boat while fishing with some Inuvialuit friends ( I went back the next day to take the picture of the print).  I would say the print form the bear that charged us was almost twice this size.  I would have taken a picture, but my battery was dead from the night before (Remember).

Let me give you one bit of advice, which I wish I would listen to more often myself.  There are two kinds of people in the world, ignorant people and stupid people.  To be ignorant is not bad because it simply means we are lacking in knowledge of something.  All of us are ignorant of something. Fortunately ignorance can be fixed, but stupid is forever.  So don't waste your time trying to fix stupid people. 

You have taught me a lot.  I value your experience and advice.  Unfortunately, I will not be participating in this forum because there are too many people that are not interested in hearing anything other then their own agenda driven ideas.  I wish you the best Sir.

On behalf of those who are reasonable and responsible, I apologize that your question turn into, and degenerated at times into, the nonsense that it did. It seems that many of us are just plain are not ready to respect the rights of others. One of the times the degeneration of conversation happens the most is for some strange reason is in the area regarding firearms here at Trailspace. Though both cars and firearms are legal, and there are restrictions to some degree on both, seems I never hear anyone arguing against the use of the motor vehicles. Car’s and guns don’t kill people, people kill people.

Funny thing, I bet nobody quotes statistics when a bear or a moose is charging them.

A number of people made very child like comments/innuendos as well as totally hijacked the intended purpose of your questions in the original posting in this thread. I’m sorry this happened. Many of those comments came form otherwise intelligent people who are normally much more thoughtful in their comments but for some reason jumped on a bandwagon of sorts to spout their nonsensical rhetoric. Again here is a fact. In The United States of America We The People are give the right to own/possess firearms. We are also given the right to carry these firearms with certain restrictions. If you cannot accept these rights please send your comments to your congress people or start a referendum in your particular local to change the law. Until then please accept that guns will be a part of this county and therefore will be a part of backcountry in differing capacities at any give time whether anyone likes it or not. I neither like it or dislike it. I accept it. I also claim and use my given right. That is not up for debate.

jungleexplorer I hope that you will reconsider your decision of not participating in this forum, though after the debacle that occurred in this thread I would completely understand your reasoning behind such a decision. Even I, one who can get a very off topic and is quite often very set in my ways and ideas was rather shocked by the nonsense that was presented by some members. With that being said I hope you stick around and add to the to the vast experience that is our community called Trailspace. If you decide not to, good travels to you.

You’re never going to get 100% consensus on any issue. You should not take it personally. There will always be people on both sides of any issue.

As for the law I think it’s intentionally vague so you never know if you’re OK. We are in a time of decline in the U.S. and it’s because of the weight of our laws and the money making scheme called The Civil Code.

“Bureaucracy is the death of all sound work” Albert Einstein

“Any change is resisted because bureaucrats have a vested interest in the chaos in which they exist.” Richard Nixon

“If you are going to sin, sin against God, not the bureaucracy. God will forgive you but the bureaucracy won't.”

Hey Doc,

Is this another one like what you are trying to reference,

"I can only please one person per day. Today isn't your day...and tomorrow don't look good either."

I would really like to answer the original question. I am sure everyone would like a clear answer. However there isn't one, or the answer is check with the higher authority. What kind of country do we live in if you have to check with someone else? Everyone should know the law. The sad fact is nobody is sure of anything. The law is a great mystery to many including me, and to make it worse, its changing all the time. You shouldn't have to put your finger in the air, to gauge the wind direction, to know if you can protect yourself.

I suppose you can take proper measures to make sure you don't get eaten. Then expect to be tossed in jail for protecting yourself or Cited for taking precautions. It's better then ending up dinner for bears.

Doc,

I have (nearly) always appreciated your points of view expressed in your posts and again you have dropped a noteworthy contribution at this stage of this thread.

To All,

Although there has been some difficulty in this Q&A thread and seemingly, feelings and personal emotions getting touched and added.  The 3 most recent posts before my previous quip, have illustrated that being up front from the beginning, not playing games in communication and being, politely, honest while having a little compromise in thought of what may not have been well written, is what all could consider and hopefully some practice with a little more earnest next time this subject or similar sensitive subject comes to Q&A time.

I had taken time off from this thread and upon just now returning, I do read it with surprise.

Bears, animals, the far remote outdoors and the experiences of other people who have challenged themselves to live, work, vacation or drop in for a quick visit away from the lifestyle of city/suburbia are of great interest to me.  Amongst all of these posts I have enjoyed the many points and had a frown from some, then a laugh at times too.

I did mention in a previous post that this is a very touchy subject.  I was almost ready for this from the moment the thread started.  Damn, I should have gone to Vegas, the odds were good. 

Now, trying to get back to and end my contributions on a light but serious note (I hope the smiley faces show).  Which face do you think you were perceived as ? ,  and ,  which would you prefer to be perceived as ? 

Oh no, I feel so,,,,,,,,,,

Dear Mr. Dewey, I will not apologize! There are no scary bears in Colorado, only scary knuckleheads who do not do due diligence about the area that they are going into. I am a NRA member and a US Marine father. I know and respect most weapons and respect one's rights. If it were Alaska Or B.C. I would keep my trap trap shut. I have had one grizzley encounter in Alaska and bear spray worked quite well. No real extra weight except the can, no gun, no slugs, no buckshot, etc.

And one another thing, in 1987 on a backpacking trip a woman I know was shot in the leg by a hiker who mistook her for a bad critter. Kind of made me paranoid of guns in designated wilderness areas. We had to carry her out, she is fine now, except for a slight limp.

Whatever, your comments re: ...the mob... were offensive and false, but, I cannot be bothered to argue with someone like you.

Gentlemen and ladies, Trailspace has a set of rules and regulations that govern posts. They are readily available for review. Topics such as guns tend to bring about disagreements that often devolve into personal attacks that we do not want here and those rules are intended to govern these conversations. The moderators get no great pleasure in being "playground monitors" and separating the bullies from the kids trying to play nice, so the less of that the better.

Trailspace has members with all levels of experience. While we realize that being a new member does not mean that being new here means someone doesn't possess a certain level of experience, be it military, professional outdoor work or something equally applicable to the topics discussed here, but sometimes that is the case.

Furthermore, longtime members get to "know" other members and even if they have different levels of experience or philosophical or political differences, they usually develop a certain tolerance for differing opinions.

New members who start immediately into criticizing regulars before becoming "seasoned" here often draw both skepticism and contempt. Often, both may be deserved.

If you are new here and want to make a point, but are unwilling to do so in a civil manner, you may be "timed out" temporarily or in rare cases banned.  This is not a free speech issue so please, no playing lawyer, I'm one in real life and you won't fool me with some argument you found on the Internet.

Trailspace welcomes lively discussions and at least for myself, I always enjoy learning something new.  However, if you insist on attacking others with name calling or similar tactics, you will not find yourself welcome here. Please conduct yourselves accordingly.

Well said, TomD, and I think that we all need to remember that harsh comments, mocking slurs upon others and deliberate distortion of what a given poster is trying to communicate is of no benefit to any of us and tends to ruin otherwise informative and enjoyable threads.

Peace, all, there is enough strife in our sad and bloody world, so, we don't need any here.

Tom, one of my nephews recently gradded "Osgoode Hall", the top law school in Canada, at the University of Toronto and is now working for a major firm in that city. The young geezer will probably make more coin in five years than his dad and I did together in our working lives!

Good life for those who can make the grade, eh?

Dewey, that is great to hear. I sometimes envy the big firm guys-long hours, but big money as well. I went to law school late in life and work for myself, so I think he's off to a good start. If the big firm life gets old, that experience will do him well in any future endeavor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America

Not a lot of Colorado activity but probably enough to be cautious as usual.

Bites, on the other hand, are more common as are mauling, charges and food pilfering.

Compared to dog bites and even fatalities (after accounting for population density or risk of encounter) man's best friend is the number one animal enemy as well.

12 ga slugs settle all problems. Bear spray if guns are banned. Electric fence in certain areas of AK.

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