Sleeping Bag Question

I need a 10-20 degree sleeping bag. Currently I have a 40 degree bag and that just doesn't make the grade for those winter or late fall trips; even in early spring it gets pretty cold on those trips to the mountains by the river.

Question - Do you prefer the nylon/taffeta liner and shell or the cotton/poly liner and shell?

I know I've come to the right place to ask this. Thanks for any input.

Quote:

I need a 10-20 degree sleeping bag. Currently I have a 40 degree bag and that just doesn't make the grade for those winter or late fall trips; even in early spring it gets pretty cold on those trips to the mountains by the river.

Question - Do you prefer the nylon/taffeta liner and shell or the cotton/poly liner and shell?

Absolutely no choice here. Anything with cotton is to be avoided for cold weather, especially if it is at all damp cold weather. Cotton soaks up moisture, dries very slowly if at all, and the fibers collapse, providing no insulation capability. Nylon taffeta works well for the lining. The shell should be synthetic as well, with microfiber-type fabrics doing very well in shedding spilled liquids and breathing. I had a very informative visit at the Feathered Friends factory last week and saw several new fabrics that may be introduced soon from a number of the better manufacturers. These were basically microfiber type weaves, but with silicone encapsulation. Very light and very durable. Pertex and Epic are two very good microfiber type fabrics. Alternatively, at least get a ripstop nylon outer - more durable than a plain taffeta.

For the fill, I would suggest sticking with synthetic if there is any chance of moisture. Down is really great as long as it is dry (I use my down bags for the vast majority of my backcountry use). But it is extremely expensive and is useless when it gets wet. It is pretty much impossible to dry in the field if it gets soaked. Primaloft is the closest to down of the synthetics - light for the loft, compresses well, very warm for the weight, and like most synthetics, holds little water and keeps some of its insulating power when damp. I have a Primaloft bag (from Marmot, rated 15 deg) which has served me well for 3-season use for over 10 years now, plus a Primaloft jacket (from Integral Designs). It is a huge improvement over the Polargards, Hollofills, etc.

Brands to consider - Integral Designs (order direct), Marmot, Mountain Hardwear, TNF. REI-branded bags are ok, but you can do better. I would definitely avoid the store brands from the sporting goods chains (since I know you do a lot of serious backpacking).

It is rated to 0 degrees (actually keeps me warm to about 25 degrees), polarguard 3D fill. weight of the bag is just under 4 lbs. The lining is made of a material similiar to flannel. Quite comfy, but if your like me and have thick calouses on your feet, it snags the material. The outside is made of some kind of cotton/synthetic blend.

I like this bag a lot. I would buy it again if given the choice. I purchased it at Moosejaw.com for about $110.00.

If it does get colder than 25 degrees, I just put my down jacket over the bag like a jacket and I'm soon back to sleep.

Thanks guys. I'm checking all the websites that I can on the subject. I gotta part with some big bucks, as I have to buy two. Quality is definitely what I'm after - quality at a lower price if I can find it.

Thanks again.

http://www.boundarywaterscatalog.com/browse.cfm/4,283.htm

They have the Merlin on sale for $119.00. I bet they will give a small discount for two.

 

She needs a 10-20 degree bag and your merlin only works to 25 degrees; despite the bogus 0 degree rating. The truth is for a bag that will adaquately protect you to 0 degrees 1) a cotton/poly bad will weigh approx 7 lbs and cost $125 (most likely no draft collar) 2) A nylon Polarguard (I recommend) will weigh approx 5 lbs and cost $180 and finally, 3) a down nylon bag will weigh 2-4 lbs and cost $250 and up depending on fill quality.

It is perfectly comfortable for others at lower temperatures. Too many variables involved to be making such a definative statement as it only "works" to 25 degrees.

It does have a poly dwr shell, which you recommend.

25 degrees will mostly likely be fine. Will someone enlighten me as to what DWR means?

DWR is a coating applied to certain synthetic fabrics to provide extra water repellancy. Goretex and other waterproof/breathables usually come from the factory with a DWR coating to reduce the possibility of "wetting out". The DWR has to be renewed from time to time for the GTX, Triple Ceramic, or whatever to keep its maximum waterproofness. How often depends on the generation of the wp/b fabric, how hard you abuse, er, use, it, and, in my experience, the particular company. I have one GTX jacket (Marmot Alpinist III) that still is very resistant to the surface wetting out, despite several years of hard use, including BC skiing and being on Denali several times, and another "The Name is Famous" that seems to go through its DWR in less than a year, despite its having been retired to "street use" (don't trust it to keep me dry in the hills anymore, despite doing the renewal routine).

Some sleeping bag outer shells and some windbreaker jackets (that is, not a wp/b, just intended for light mist) are coated with a DWR and actually work pretty well in anything short of a tropical downpour. Some of the jackets fall in the category of "soft shell" clothing.

To reiterate, DWR coatings have to be renewed from time to time, whether on a soft shell or a Gtx hard shell. I find that both the one from Nikwax and from Gore work reasonably well, better than a couple of store brands I have tried.

Hiker girl - In your first post you said you need a bag for 10-20 degree temperatures. Now you say, 25 degrees is OK.
If you buy a bag rated for 25 degrees, that is the absolute lowest temp it will keep you warm. If it goes down to 10 degrees, you will be cold all night long even with a down vest on.
If you will be sleeping out in 10 degree temps, you need a 0 rating at least. That will cover the faulty rating systems that are in place.

pefectly warm at 0 degrees, some at 10 degrees and some at 25 degrees. It's more about metabolism of the individual than bag ratings.

How about this.... why not offer Hikergirl some suggestions as to Manufacturer and models of bags you recommend.

Hiker Girl,

I have the North Face Cat's Meow which is rated at 15-20 I think. I bought mine several years ago from campmor for something like 120.00 bucks. I got the "right" zipper and my wife got the "left" zipper. This way you can zip them together. If I remember you do most of your hiking in the southeast which can be wet. Some will make arguments that you should get a sythetic bag so you will stay warm when it's wet. Some people prefer down for the weight savings and you can keep the bad dry by putting it in a plastic bag. Are you a warm or cold sleeper? You could look at the sleeping bag reviews on this page. I'd also recommend.

www.campmor.com
www.sierratradingpost.com
www.moosejaw.com
www.killerdeals.com

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I need a 10-20 degree sleeping bag. Currently I have a 40 degree bag and that just doesn't make the grade for those winter or late fall trips; even in early spring it gets pretty cold on those trips to the mountains by the river.

Question - Do you prefer the nylon/taffeta liner and shell or the cotton/poly liner and shell?

I know I've come to the right place to ask this. Thanks for any input.

Quote:

I've already given her fill guidelines in above note that need to be considered. From there, she can do her own research depending on how much she wants to spend. If it were me, I'd buy a Zero degree Polargard 3D bag sold at EMS. Get it on sale approx $165. It will last 10-15 years if she takes care of it.

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I've already given her fill guidelines in above note that need to be considered. From there, she can do her own research depending on how much she wants to spend. If it were me, I'd buy a Zero degree Polargard 3D bag sold at EMS. Get it on sale approx $165. It will last 10-15 years if she takes care of it.

Thanks guys, I now see that I need to do a lot of research before making my decision on just the right bag for me. There is evidently much to consider when purchasing a good bag - the temp rating, the fill material, the shell material, the lining, the weight, the style (mummy, semi rectangular, rectangular), etc.

Buying a tent wasn't this difficult, but I don't want to throw my money to the wind buying a bag that won't fit the bill either.

Steve, I will check out the site you suggested. My research continues.

that the Zero degree Polargard 3D Marmot Merlin selling for $119.00 won't?

How do you know that the zero degree rating of the bag you recommend isn't bogus?

As Ed indicates, bag ratings are very inconsistent from manufacturer to manufacturer. Some are fairly conservative (Marmot, Integral Designs, Feathered Friends, Western Mountaineering, Mountain Hardwear, couple others), some probably ok for the warm sleeper (TNF, some REI, some EMS, though REI and EMS I have found over the years to be inconsistent with bags of nominally the same warmth feeling very different to me and unfortunately toward the optimistic side), and some mass produced bags rather optimistic (Slumberjack and Coleman notably among the widely sold bags). The newer synthetics are much improved over the older versions (Liteloft I have found to be very good, Polargard 3D and later versions are ok, Holofill I haven't tried in several years, though I notice the scouts seem to wear Hollofill bags out in a couple years - loss of loft, that is). Price doesn't guarantee quality. Notably, TNF and MtnHW sell for about the same price for nominally equivalent bags, but the MtnHW bags sure look to me to better put together and people I have climbed with who have them are very happy with them. We have 2 TNF synth winter bags in our household, which were optimistically rated when new and have lost a bit of their loft - my nominal 15 deg Marmot Mistral is warmer than my nominal -5 deg TNF Bigfoot. Since I typically put in around 100+ nights a year in sleeping bags (usually with other folks, like Jim S or scout groups, usually with at least one 3 week straight session like Denali or elsewhere in the Alaska Range), I think I have gotten a pretty fair idea of what works and what doesn't.

Maybe more later, but I am headed out the door right now for a weekend in the Sierra. I will be using the Mistral, which should be fine for the snow at 7000 ft.

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As Ed indicates, bag ratings are very inconsistent from manufacturer to manufacturer. Bill S gives some more detailed info on mfrs and which under/over rated.

I have stated before that knowledge and accesories will keep you warmer than bag ratings will indicate. I have survived a night at 40 below in a bag rated at +30! I had a nice hat a couple pairs of long underwear and a snowmobile suit. I had a rabbit skin fur side in, over my face and my legs were inside my jacket in the bottom of my bag.
More to the point, you can always do something to sleep warmer. Bag ratings are done with dummies (if at all) not with smart thinking campers. I find that as I become more and more experienced I sleep warmer. Last winter the temps dropped to -5F and the winds came up to 50 mph - probably faster on the peak where my tent hung on for dear life. The tent flapped wildly and had to pull my big down coat over my sleeping bag and against the windward side of the tent, but after that I was cosey in a Western bag rated at -5 wearing only medium weight long underwear and a light fleece jacket inside the bag. Oh yes - sleeping pad insulation is critical and I use a three inch thick down filled Warmlight Airmattress right on the snow.
Ok how? You are the source of all warmth in you bag. Wear long underwear or fleece in your bag so the warmth of your body can get to the rest of your body. Then create a small space for your body by either filling some of the space in your sleeping bag with down gear (or a summer bag) and tucking the edges of your bag under you. The bag will be warmest when the outside can loft fully, but the inside is pressed against you. My Western bag has 4 custom elastic bands just inside the inner layer that make it snuggle up against me and prevents air from moving up and down through the bag which is a major source of heaat loss. Also wear a balaclava and use the hood on your sleeping bag. Tightening up the hood and shoulder compression strings will make you much warmer. I also have a light pair of fleece gloves for sleeping in only and sometimes add a light fleece jacket on my upper body.
You can always add another layer of fleece, or wrap your legs together in something so they can warm each other more and wear heavy socks.
A sleeping bag is just a tool with somekind of rating, what you do with it is up to you...........
Jim S

Hiker Girl,

Sorry for the late entry, just got back into town.

Before you go and spend the bank on the so-called high end stuff, muight want to surf over to the Coleman site. Coleman is closing out their Exponent "Summit 0 degree" bag.... it's a quallofil bag, plenty of loft, all the tricks like the drawstring chest tube, drawstring hood and neck, locking zipper, etc, etc... the inside has that elastic thing going on in the stitching - contributing to warmth. Coleman is blowing them out for $ 69.99 each right now - a steal compared to the over 100 buck retail price.

The Summit 0 is plenty warm and it weighs just over 5 lbs (I think).. I've slept very comfortably well below 20 F (with proper sleep clothes and decent cover),

Anyway, Coleman may not be the sexiest name out there, but for my money (especially on clearance), it's a solid deal. The stuff simply works (for me anyway).

Hope this helps.

 

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Thanks guys. I'm checking all the websites that I can on the subject. I gotta part with some big bucks, as I have to buy two. Quality is definitely what I'm after - quality at a lower price if I can find it.

Thanks again.

Hiker Girl,

Sorry for the late entry, just got back into town.

Before you go and spend the bank on the so-called high end stuff, might want to surf over to the Coleman site. Coleman is running a sale on their Exponent "Summit 0 degree" bag.... it's a quallofil bag, plenty of loft, all the tricks like the drawstring chest tube, drawstring hood and neck, locking zipper, etc, etc... the inside has that elastic thing going on in the stitching - contributing to warmth. Coleman is blowing them out for $ 69.99 each right now - a steal compared to the over 100 buck retail price.

The Summit 0 is plenty warm and it weighs just over 5 lbs (I think).. I've slept very comfortably well below 20 F (with proper sleep clothes and decent cover),

Anyway, Coleman may not be the sexiest name out there, but for my money (especially on clearance), it's a solid deal. The stuff simply works (for me anyway).

Hope this helps

Quote:

I need a 10-20 degree sleeping bag. Currently I have a 40 degree bag and that just doesn't make the grade for those winter or late fall trips; even in early spring it gets pretty cold on those trips to the mountains by the river.

Question - Do you prefer the nylon/taffeta liner and shell or the cotton/poly liner and shell?

I know I've come to the right place to ask this. Thanks for any input.

Quote:

that the Zero degree Polargard 3D Marmot Merlin selling for $119.00 won't?

For the 2nd time, by your own admission, your Merlin kept you warm to only 25 degrees; despite the over ambitious rating. So to answer your question, the extra money buys you a 25 degree warmer bag. I doesn't take a Harvard man here.

Quote:

How do you know that the zero degree rating of the bag you recommend isn't bogus?

I have one and its warm at zero.

I see other posts that show cheaper Qualifill bags, rated for zero for $70. What it boils down to is you get what you pay for

Ed makes an excellent point that is often overlooked, despite being repeated here in this and previous threads many times. Ratings are relative. There is *no* industry standard for determining ratings, despite efforts over many years by the industry to reach a consensus on testing methods. Even if there were a standard testing method, individual factors can cause the comfort felt by a single individual in the same bag to vary dramatically from night to night, even if the nights are identical by objective measurements by calibrated instruments. And different individuals will have drastically different perceptions of the comfort level. Ed might have felt cold at 25F on the same night that I would have had to keep the bag wide open for overheating, or the other way around. I tend to be a fairly warm sleeper, whereas my wife tends to be a cold sleeper (there is some evidence in the literature that women on the average are colder sleepers than men, although there is a wide range in both).

A few factors that affect how warm a bag feels - how fatigued you are, how recently and what you ate, how well hydrated or dehydrated you are, what you are wearing (clean dry thermal underwear, soggy wet clothes, etc), your state of health, your state of fitness, and other personal factors. Some environmental factors (beyond just temperature) - local microclimate, your sleeping pad (air mattresses tend to be cold, hammocks tend to be very cold, closed cell foam pads tend to be warm for a given thickness, etc), in a tent or not (also ventilation of tent), wind/breeze, and more. Plus the obvious factors of humidity and how dirty and wet your bag is (a just-laundered bag will have a lot of its original loft, hence warmth, restored, where the same bag at the end of a thousand mile through-hike will lose a lot of its original insulating capacity).

As I mentioned, there is no standard rating method for sleeping bag warmth. Some manufacturers use the old Army tables for thickness of insulation. Unfortunately, thickness by itself does not guarantee warmth, since you need to know whether the bag is used on a cot (canvas army cots provide no insulation underneath while providing lots of convective airflow), on a pad, directly on the ground, or what. You also need to know how the Army tables were obtained (I won't go into that here, since there is a lot of political baggage involved with the original testing). Some manufacturers conduct their own tests using either instrumented dummies or live humans, some in walk-in icebox-like units, some in the field, some involving a tent, some in the open. Some assume a certain amount of clothing that increases as the bag is rated to lower temperatures (after all, you wouldn't use expedition longies to sleep in a summer bag, but you might use a couple layers of expd longs for an arctic expedition), others (Stephenson's notably) assume you sleep with nothing on at all (that is what he preaches on his website, if you haven't read it). And unfortunately, very few manufacturers state how their bag rating was carried out. By reading sites like Trailspace, Mountain Community, and others, you can quickly figure out which companies are optimistic and which are conservative.

And sorry, no, steve, you do not always get what you pay for. There are some very expensive bags that are very optimistically rated and some inexpensive bags with very conservative ratings. And there are places and times when you can get an excellent price on a bag (I got my TNF Bigfoot for $99 from a TNF store, when they advertised it as a lead item on a sale - the store had a total of 6 in stock and I got the last one, despite being the first person through the door when they opened).

1.)My wife is perfectly warm in my Merlin at zero degrees whereas I am not. She is always warmer than I (genetics - her dad is like that too).

2.) The Marmot Merlin is a $189.95 sleeping bag on sale for $119.95

I received my Bachelor's Degree from Slippery Rock State College. I didn't need to attend Harvard to be able to search the internet for the best sale price!

Besides, Harvard is NOT the best College/University for everything under the sun. If you want to become a Physical Educator or even a Recreation Specialist, Slippery Rock is rated above Harvard.

I do hope you realize that this dichotomy is not at all meant to be personal - just a discussion on our own ideas of what we each think is best in a sleeping bag.

I agree. You get what you pay for. The 70-dollar Exponent Summit sells for over 100.00, is on sale direct from Coleman right now. In my mind, that's a great deal. I own one. It is warm. In fact, it can be hot. But you can regulate that through the chest drawstring if you want.

Or, for another great deal, she can go out to Campmor and look at teh Marmot for 99.00 (I think it's a 'Thunderstorm', or something like that).... now 99.00 reg 139.00. Another good deal and again, 'you get what you pay for'. The other benefit of the Marmot is the cool, French-sounding name (I guess).

Point is, you don't automatically have to spend a pile of cash to get a solid deal.

One caveat: I wouldn't put too much stock in the temp ratings of anyone. Metabolism, gear, and lots of other variables come into play. I figure on adding 10 degrees to any bag rating. I've had my Summit down to 15 degrees, in a sideways snowstorm (fly drawn out of wind and 3/4 inch pad), and stayed very warm, with just a bit of coolness on the old toes - easily remedied by an extra pr of socks.

Thanks.

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Quote:

that the Zero degree Polargard 3D Marmot Merlin selling for $119.00 won't?

For the 2nd time, by your own admission, your Merlin kept you warm to only 25 degrees; despite the over ambitious rating. So to answer your question, the extra money buys you a 25 degree warmer bag. I doesn't take a Harvard man here.

Quote:

How do you know that the zero degree rating of the bag you recommend isn't bogus?

I have one and its warm at zero.

I see other posts that show cheaper Qualifill bags, rated for zero for $70. What it boils down to is you get what you pay for

I agree. You get what you pay for. The 70-dollar Exponent Summit sells for over 100.00, is on sale direct from Coleman right now. In my mind, that's a great deal. I own one. It is warm. In fact, it can be hot. But you can regulate that through the chest drawstring if you want.

Or, for another great deal, she can go out to Campmor and look at teh Marmot for 99.00 (I think it's a 'Thunderstorm', or something like that).... now 99.00 reg 139.00. Another good deal and again, 'you get what you pay for'. The other benefit of the Marmot is the cool, French-sounding name (I guess).

Point is, you don't automatically have to spend a pile of cash to get a solid deal.

One caveat: I wouldn't put too much stock in the temp ratings of anyone. Metabolism, gear, and lots of other variables come into play. I figure on adding 10 degrees to any bag rating. I've had my Summit down to 15 degrees, in a sideways snowstorm (fly drawn out of wind and 3/4 inch pad), and stayed very warm, with just a bit of coolness on the old toes - easily remedied by an extra pr of socks.

Thanks.

Quote:

Quote:

that the Zero degree Polargard 3D Marmot Merlin selling for $119.00 won't?

For the 2nd time, by your own admission, your Merlin kept you warm to only 25 degrees; despite the over ambitious rating. So to answer your question, the extra money buys you a 25 degree warmer bag. I doesn't take a Harvard man here.

Quote:

How do you know that the zero degree rating of the bag you recommend isn't bogus?

I have one and its warm at zero.

I see other posts that show cheaper Qualifill bags, rated for zero for $70. What it boils down to is you get what you pay for

You are absolutely right, Bill. AS a case in point, I bought a Kelty 25 degree bag a few months ago that was, simply, a piece of junk. I took it back, as it didn't provide hardly any warmth whatsoever. IMO it was simply a pander by Kelty to increase market share by offering an inferior product attached to a well-known name.

 

Quote:

Ed makes an excellent point that is often overlooked, despite being repeated here in this and previous threads many times. Ratings are relative. There is *no* industry standard for determining ratings, despite efforts over many years by the industry to reach a consensus on testing methods. Even if there were a standard testing method, individual factors can cause the comfort felt by a single individual in the same bag to vary dramatically from night to night, even if the nights are identical by objective measurements by calibrated instruments. And different individuals will have drastically different perceptions of the comfort level. Ed might have felt cold at 25F on the same night that I would have had to keep the bag wide open for overheating, or the other way around. I tend to be a fairly warm sleeper, whereas my wife tends to be a cold sleeper (there is some evidence in the literature that women on the average are colder sleepers than men, although there is a wide range in both).

A few factors that affect how warm a bag feels - how fatigued you are, how recently and what you ate, how well hydrated or dehydrated you are, what you are wearing (clean dry thermal underwear, soggy wet clothes, etc), your state of health, your state of fitness, and other personal factors. Some environmental factors (beyond just temperature) - local microclimate, your sleeping pad (air mattresses tend to be cold, hammocks tend to be very cold, closed cell foam pads tend to be warm for a given thickness, etc), in a tent or not (also ventilation of tent), wind/breeze, and more. Plus the obvious factors of humidity and how dirty and wet your bag is (a just-laundered bag will have a lot of its original loft, hence warmth, restored, where the same bag at the end of a thousand mile through-hike will lose a lot of its original insulating capacity).

As I mentioned, there is no standard rating method for sleeping bag warmth. Some manufacturers use the old Army tables for thickness of insulation. Unfortunately, thickness by itself does not guarantee warmth, since you need to know whether the bag is used on a cot (canvas army cots provide no insulation underneath while providing lots of convective airflow), on a pad, directly on the ground, or what. You also need to know how the Army tables were obtained (I won't go into that here, since there is a lot of political baggage involved with the original testing). Some manufacturers conduct their own tests using either instrumented dummies or live humans, some in walk-in icebox-like units, some in the field, some involving a tent, some in the open. Some assume a certain amount of clothing that increases as the bag is rated to lower temperatures (after all, you wouldn't use expedition longies to sleep in a summer bag, but you might use a couple layers of expd longs for an arctic expedition), others (Stephenson's notably) assume you sleep with nothing on at all (that is what he preaches on his website, if you haven't read it). And unfortunately, very few manufacturers state how their bag rating was carried out. By reading sites like Trailspace, Mountain Community, and others, you can quickly figure out which companies are optimistic and which are conservative.

And sorry, no, steve, you do not always get what you pay for. There are some very expensive bags that are very optimistically rated and some inexpensive bags with very conservative ratings. And there are places and times when you can get an excellent price on a bag (I got my TNF Bigfoot for $99 from a TNF store, when they advertised it as a lead item on a sale - the store had a total of 6 in stock and I got the last one, despite being the first person through the door when they opened).