UL gearlist from last weekend

10:18 p.m. on July 12, 2004 (EDT)
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I am posting this one because; its short, its light, its been tested, it didn't cost a lot and most of it worked well.
I carried this pack at around 7,500' in the Sierras last weekend and it was in the upper 60s maybe, and maybe 45 at night, maybe 50.

6500" Kelty White Cloud Pack 32 oz with waist belt
Siltent with pegs 18 oz
Big Agnes pad 24 oz
WM Iroquois bag 24
Titanium pan and cup 6
water filter PUR hiker 11
fork/spoon/paper towels 2
first aid 4
cord 4
microfiber towel 3
foam sit pad as pack liner 3
toilet paper 3
head light 2.6
mosquito stick 1.8
toothpaste/sunlotion 1.6
Gerber folding knife 1.3
2 BIC type lighters 1.4
Brasslite alcohol stove 1.5
Alcohol 8
(a light compressed gas stove would be comparable to 9.5 oz)

Thats 9.3 pounds for that stuff.
Next is clothes
Down jacket 25 oz
poncho 12 oz
Red Flannel cotton shirt 10 oz
another 2.94 pounds

Tee shirt, socks, shorty gaitors, boots, shorts with zip off legs, baseball cap with retractable mosquito net - WORN and I don't weigh it.
Then theres the mission hardware - NVG, camera, GPS, cell phone - I get a kick out of calling my friends from some mountain top in the Sierras.
Your Mileage May Vary YMMV (;->)
Jim S
P.S. I forgot the one ESBIT fuel stick - wow can they start a big fire fast! Its like having an electric starter!

5:53 a.m. on July 13, 2004 (EDT)
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think a water filter weighs less..........

than carrying a little extra fuel and boiling the water?

10:48 a.m. on July 13, 2004 (EDT)
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fess up, Jim...

So how much does all of the "mission hardwear" weigh?

It's interesting to note that the big savings come in the tent and the pack. Little else in your list strikes me as obsessively ultralight (24 oz. sleeping pad? Flannel shirt?) -- and you're still in the 12-pound range. Good stuff.

1:23 p.m. on July 13, 2004 (EDT)
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"Mission Hardware" and "small items"

A few years back, when Jim and I (and another local fellow who is an engineer and the most obsessive AR person I have ever met - hey, Jim, Steve is indeed still around) were having a discussion about cutting pack weight, I decided to check the weight of the pile of "small stuff" I kept shoving into the top pocket of my pack. You know, that extra set of batteries, backup compass, other things that might (once in a century) come in handy in some catastrophic emergency and only weigh a "few ounces" each, plus the 35mm SLR and extra lenses, closeup extension tubes, and other accessories. I gathered the junk into a bag, hefted it (noting with great surprise how much it felt like), hung it on a scale, and almost fell over when I saw how much it all weighed. I had been justifying the "small stuff" as (1) might be needed when I was taking the scout troop on an overnight (or even day hike), (2) might come in handy if I came across some imaginary situation that I had never come across in all my decades of climbing and backpacking, and (3) "it's only a few ounces, so it doesn't add much." This inspired a very hard look and review of all the accumulated "impedimenta" (that's the Latin word for "baggage"). I also noted that virtually all of it had been added over the years, not as replacements for older obsolete stuff (that junk was still in there), but as additions. Much of it duplicated other things. I even started looking at the clothes - how many changes of clothing did I ever make on an overnight backpack (answer - none, just wear the same thing for both days)?

Well, back in the 50s and 60s, I had a light pack. Dick Kelty included a pamphlet with his packs that included a weekend gear list. The total weight was 18 pounds, plus food and water (Kelty's original packs were about 2 pounds, but the company he sold to in the 70s "grew" the Kelty packs to the 8 pound range for the same carrying capacity). So I started tossing out the duplications and the "once a century" items, and by golly, I was back under 20 pounds total. I did get a P&S camera that was much lighter, although nowhere near the capability (but I now sometimes go on a photo-pack, where I take a couple Nikon bodies and a bunch of lenses, or even the 4x5).

Point is - yes, Dave, those "mission" items and "small stuff" do add up. But, Jim's night vision scope (and mine) are pretty light, as is my present digicam. The digicam may not produce the quality of the Nikon with prime lenses, but it's just fine for the memory shots and 5 ounces is easier on the Old GreyBeard than the 10 pounds of SLR and lenses. The current internal frame packs are back to the weight of the original Kelty for a similar carrying capacity and comfort. Current sleeping bags are extremely light for the comfort level. Stoves are much lighter now than in the 60s (although fuel, of course, weighs the same). Freezedry food available now is much lighter than the old dehydrated stuff (and tastes much better, besides).

So now you can get more widgets into the same weight. Or, for us Senior Citizens, we can take a lighter pack by leaving out all but the "essential" widgets (like the camera).

8:36 p.m. on July 13, 2004 (EDT)
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Bill, Dave, Ed

Hi Ed, Bill, Dave, et all - Hi hikergirl (;->)

To answer Ed first. I was very disapointed by the performance of my alcohol stove last weekend, and its a top model - hand silver soldered - weighs an ounce and a half. Yes it would take less alcohol to boil water than the weight of the water boiled. My stove was hard to light - I forgot the ground insulater, and it took a lot of fuel to boil a cup of water. I believe that a 3 oz nozzle (stove) on a small compressed gas bottle could easily weigh the same as the 2 ounces of alcohol stove and alcohol which has less energy per unit volume than popane/butane and comes in a plastic bottle rather than a steel bottle. I bet using a compressed gas stove would save weight over carrying water or using alcohol to sterilize water, only it will still taste of swamp...

Bill S. Funny how we HAD to have that stuff huh? I can remember backpacking my 8'x8'canvas umbrella tent when I was a Boy Scout and everybody was jealous of my tent!
So you got so NVG eh? I'm looking around for a pair of goggles, maybe not Gen 1...

Cameras are so light now along with GPS and cell phones.
I think the Olympus digital is around 5.5 ounces
ETREX GPS 4.8 oz
cell phone 5.25 oz
Car keys? does anyone weigh them? My car keys weigh 1.75 oz.
How about sunglasses and wallet? My wallet weighs 4 oz.
21.3 Ounces for everything listed above. Oh my NVG
NVG 18 ounces... It doesn't get taken often - how much does yours weigh Bill. Can you look down and focus on your feet? That way you can see to walk at night. I want the NVG goggles for night hiking... He he (;->)

I took a fat agnes pad and it leaked right out of the bag.
JimS

6:12 a.m. on July 14, 2004 (EDT)
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let me restate the question, I think my point got lost somewhere

My question is.... doesn't a little extra fuel to purify water by boiling, weigh less than than carrying a water filter?

Always wondered about this.

I use an old Camping Gaz stove (pre 270 model) and carry a 270 and a 470 fuel can. I can go four days cooking my meals and boil more than four gallons of sulphur water and still have about half of the 270 can left over.

I once figured it took an ounce of gas to boil water in a 20 cup coffe pot (~1 gallon).

Not to mention I wouldn't have to give up precious room in my 10,000 C.I. capacity backpack to the filter by carrying extra fuel.

Cell phone? Weren't you the one teasing me about carrying a camping stool and a hammock?

I got rid of my NVG. Just too darn hard to focus into a semi-clear image.

10:29 a.m. on July 14, 2004 (EDT)
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electronic widgets

My Minolta Xg weighs 4-7/8 ounces, extra battery 5/8, extra chip 1/4 ounce. I usually carry it all in a belt case (leather, padded against major drops), though with a neck strap (picked up as a freebee at a meeting, not a Minolta product), so the total is 8-1/8 ounces.

The night vision scope I have (not goggles) is gen 2, which is a bit better than the gen 1s that I have tried out, but still far short of the one gen 3 I tried out (more expense than the gen 1, although on sale, but much less than the gen 3). I have a T-mount for it, so I can stick it on the Nikons. Too bad it isn't compatible with very many of the digicams (if a digicam has interchangeable lenses, it usually requires autofocus/autoexposure/autoeverything, linking to the particular camera system, and the ones that can be linked are superexpensive and heavy). Yes, I can look down at my feet and focus, but it is awkward to use it that way. A headlamp is lighter and much easier to use.

I usually only take the one key needed to get into the car, so only a fraction of an ounce (except the "new" AWD with the electronic locking system, which requires the pushbutton thingy - what happens if the car battery runs down during the backcountry segment, or the battery in the pushbotton thingy?).

11:01 a.m. on July 14, 2004 (EDT)
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Depends ...

I got your point, Ed.

The filter vs boiling is a tradeoff. Filtering has certain advantages (get rid of the silt, get rid of noxious tastes and poisonous chemicals if you have an activated carbon filter, don't have to get out the stove/set it up/put it away after cooling, generally faster than boiling, don't have to wait for the water to cool down on a hot day). And boiling has other advantages (kills all the nasty bugs, including viruses which can get through most filters).

If you are just going out on a short trip, with short hikes between camps, it is lighter to leave the filter and just boil extra water at the campsite, to fill the extra water bottles you carry along. If you have very long distances between opportunities to refill (as we sometimes do in the mountains and deserts in the West), you need to carry a lot of extra water capacity to be able to drink that recommended liter an hour. A filter is usually faster at filling the containers at those rare refill stops. If you have frequent opportunities to refill, as in much of the East, and are going a long distance each day (through-hiking the AT, for example), carrying a single bottle and pumping frequently is more efficient than getting out the stove every couple of hours.

In some parts of the West, you get streams that have lots of fine sediment (volcanic ash in the Sangres, glacial flour in the Cascades). In some areas you get chemical contamination (mine runoff in some parts of WVa, Penn, parts of the Santa Cruz Mountains - mercury mines around Quicksilver park for example). Filters are almost required, or at the very least pre-filtering and settling overnight with decanting.

However, in the higher mountains, the studies indicate that the giardia and cryptosporidium count is low enough that you can just skip the filtering and boiling if you are going to be in there for less than a week. I don't have the website right at hand, but I will post it if I find it.

So it comes down to - what type of hike are you doing, how often are the refill opportunities, and what is the nature of the refill opportunities?

Just out of curiosity, since the pre-270 Gaz stoves were the 100 and 200 series (100, 106, 200, 206), which were all puncture type, how do you put the 270 and 470 canisters on your "pre 270 model" stove? I know there is an adapter for the puncture cartridges to fit the "standard threaded coupling" (aka lindal), made by Markill, but I haven't seen an adapter for puncture stoves to fit the valve-type canisters. For those who don't know, the 270/470 coupling is very close in size to the "industry standard" threaded coupling, but is not threaded. Camping Gaz/Bleuet is the only company using these on a large scale (Gaz is a division of Coleman, which is part of Sunbeam - so Coleman has about 5 different couplings on their canisters).

11:23 a.m. on July 14, 2004 (EDT)
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The stove I have..........

is not a puncture type. The stove snaps into the canister and then tightens with the plastic knurled ring. I'm not sure what model I have. I have looked at the twister and turbo 270 stoves and mine is nothing like them. The pot rest arms are more substantial (made of sheet metal rather than wire) and a lot less plastic. There is no wind screen. I bought it in 1990.

3:07 p.m. on July 14, 2004 (EDT)
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Re: think a water filter weighs less..........

The beauty of using fuel and boiling is that the pack weight gradually goes down as you use up the fuel; whereas the filter weight stays the same. Chemical tablets weigh next to nothing and seem to work fine except the water tastes like your local swimming pool.

6:33 p.m. on July 14, 2004 (EDT)
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It is a 270 series

Take a look on one of the historical stove websites that have been referenced here over the past couple of years. The 270 and 470 series have been out for quite a few years now, with new versions coming out all the time.

8:20 p.m. on July 14, 2004 (EDT)
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it has to cool to drink

That takes time and pans. It just might take less energy to carry the filter than to boil.
Jim S

8:42 p.m. on July 14, 2004 (EDT)
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a.k.a. sc
BAD STOVE??

".... I was very disapointed by the performance of my alcohol stove last weekend, and its a top model - hand silver soldered - weighs an ounce and a half...."

Jim,

What kind of stove was it? What do you think was the problem - altitude, temp, or humidity, or what? And what's this about a 'ground insulator'?

p.s. You guys have shamed me into looking at my summer bag - think I have a solution - more to follow after the experiment.

8:45 p.m. on July 14, 2004 (EDT)
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Re: BAD STOVE??

Sorry, I just reread your gearlist. Brasslite, eh? I've heard nothing but good stuff about them. I have a Trangia - works great so far.

9:30 p.m. on July 14, 2004 (EDT)
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Nope - wrong fuel

[".... I was very disapointed by the performance of my alcohol stove last weekend, and its a top model - hand silver soldered - weighs an ounce and a half...."]

Jim,

>What kind of stove was it? What do you think was the >problem - altitude, temp, or humidity, or what? And what's >this about a 'ground insulator'?

I won't use the brand name for many reasons... Lets say that this is a fine brass open top adjustable air supply stove. I do not have any numbers for you though I can generate them, but I felt it took a lot of alcohol to boil just enough water for two cups of coffee and one instant oatmeal. It also took a lot of fuel to prime it. The fuel weight used was way more than I would have used with a compressed gas stove.
I believe they use a piece of aluminum foil wrapped around a piece of cardboard as a ground pad/heat reflector.

ALSO I DID NOT TAKE THE WIND SCREEN. The wind was very light and I was at the base of a cliff in some trees at the edge of a lake, it was pretty protected and I put the stove next to a boulder and built a rock shield around it.

However - in my humble opinion - I need MUCH higher performance in my stove than I can get from alcohol, and I bet even on an overnight with more than one person, it would be lighter and far more efficient to carry a light (2-3 oz) compressed gas stove. Look for 100 gram fuel bottles. I can make one last for two trips or even more, but not cooking pasta or drinking 8 cups of brewed coffee.

Its hard for me to leave my Coleman Xtreme at home in the summer, but I tend to opt for a primus or a Markil bivy stove. I never use white gas anymore and I don't think I'll be using alcohol anymore either. Its now propane/butane year round from me, just from different stoves. Oh yeh - a piece of that esbit fuel is sure awesome for lighting a wood fire!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jim S

9:41 p.m. on July 14, 2004 (EDT)
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Nice stove

I am not saying anything negative about Brasslite. These are the Mercedes Benz of alcohol stoves and they are beautifully made. If you are into alcohol and you don't need much hot water - go for it. In another group we got into a huge fight over alcohol stoves because some people were claiming they were good for winter usage and for melting snow, and even brasslite said that this stove has its place and its limits and it was never designed for melting snow. Mine in fact is a solo model and as I said, it does not put out enough heat to cook for two, it wasn't designed to. If you like alcohol stoves by all means buy a brasslite, besides it will look so cool as a paper weight. I've been experimenting with wood gas stoves, hobo stoves, forced air stoves (I use a pentium cooling fan on a 9 volt battery to blow air down an aluminum "tube" and into the side of a pan with a hole cut in it). I also have collected stoves since Moses was a lad and maybe only Bill S has more stoves than me, but I think I still have a greater variety.
AND for me its Coleman Xtreme or expedition two burner model of Xtreme for Winter, and any 2-4 ounce burner on a small compressed gas bottle for Summer.
Jim S

6:08 a.m. on July 15, 2004 (EDT)
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what is the website?

I'd like to check that out, I may have the 470 stove. I'm pretty sure my antique Camping Gaz lantern is a 470.

Poor lantern hasn't been lit in 8 years. I now absolutely abhor lanterns in camp. In fac, I hate any source of constant illumination other than the soft glow of a chem light.

6:12 a.m. on July 15, 2004 (EDT)
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well, I drink a lot of hot decaf tea to hydrate while the water is cooling.........

so I don't wait at all. I always carry my coffee pot that contains my tent during the hike.

If I need to filter water, I have a couple of paper coffee filters that weigh nothing.

10:41 a.m. on July 15, 2004 (EDT)
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Good point! I would even think that..........

using a filter would actually increase the weight of your pack the first time you use it.

11:34 a.m. on July 15, 2004 (EDT)
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Coffee filters

Coffee filters are ok for removing sediment and algae, but the pores are far too large to remove even giardia, much less bacteria or viruses. One of the staff for my winter course works for a company that distributes industrial filters. They have a line which goes to the submicron range that will remove everything down to viruses. They look like a cloth bag that you pour the water through and are pretty fast. Still, like coffee filters, they won't remove chemical contaminants, including organic solvents. Filters that use activated charcoal will remove the chemical contaminants (several of these in backpacker models), although not necessarily the smaller viruses.

I use coffee filters as a pre-filter to cut down the amount of volcanic ash and glacial flour before using a pump (slows the pump clogging and saves a bit of field maintenance).

11:53 a.m. on July 15, 2004 (EDT)
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Different alcohol stoves

A lot of people are using the coke-can stoves or stoves like the mini Trangia that are basically just a can that holds the alcohol. These work fine for a fondue pot sitting on the dining table, but just don't work worth diddly for field use. IIRC, the Brasslite is such a stove.

What you should be using is one of the integrated alcohol stoves that incorporates burner, holder, windshield, pot, and cover in a fitted unit. The more expensive Trangias are this type, as are the Sigg and the Taymor that I have as well. Basically, these are designed to provide a windshield and heat exchanger in a directed updraft configuration. The efficiency is increased a huge amount over the bare burner. This is the type that is so popular among backcountry skiers in Scandinavia. It is efficient enough that I can pull mine out of the pack and have a couple cups of water boiling for tea at a lunch break while the white gas stove folks are still priming their stoves and the canister folks are getting to lukewarm. They work passably well for melting snow as well, except that the pot capacity is small enough that they aren't really useful for doing a whole dinner.

At one time, Sigg had an alcohol stove that featured a burner designed like an updraft carburettor and was quite hot. But, I haven't seen these in at least 15 years. Also, Sigg had a liquid fuel stove that burned alcohol as well as white gas a number of years ago (that is, the owner's manual approved it - I know people who have used alcohol in other white gas stoves, despite explicit prohibitions in the owner's manuals).

The main problem with alcohol stoves is that alcohol has about half the heat yield of petroleum based fuels per unit of fuel weight. A big advantage, if you are working with kids, is that alcohol does not burn as hot and, unlike petroleum fuels, you can extinguish an alcohol fire with water (water just spreads the gasoline, so you get a bigger fire). So, for working with kids (or on boats) alcohol is safer to use.

1:16 p.m. on July 15, 2004 (EDT)
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Coffee filters strain, then boiling purifies.

Industrial filter company....U.S. Filter by chance?

I used to design odor control equipment for U.S. Filter in Temecula, Ca.

5:44 p.m. on July 15, 2004 (EDT)
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Re: Nice stove

Agree. But ANYTHING without a windscreen will lose heat as you already have preached. My Extreme takes a long time without the windscreen as well.

I use the Mini-Trangia when I am very concerned about weight (although I suspect my Coleman Extreme, using the smaller mini-canister, wouldn't be much heavier). Also I like the fully self-contained aspect - throw the lighter or matches in the pan, snap on the frying pan, and yer packed. But I have noticed that she burns just a little more fuel than I expected - and I always carry the Esbit backup as a - well, a backup....

I actually made a pepsi-can stove - a sure sign that I'm in too deep - but the amount of work to get that thing together, and the amount of frustration getting it just so - well, I decided to go the 25 bucks and buy the trangia. I've also made a catfood stove and a paint can stove (that one works really well, by the way - just ungainly as heck).

Last thing. My wind screen is made from a disposable aluminum baking pan (from the grocery store - dwgs and direction from the internet). I punched holes in the bottom and I fasten it with those office clips when I cook - y'know, those little spring-steel clips. Reusable, light, and useful. Point is, I've not had any problems with my alcohol stove with the windscreen.

I'll probably take the Trangia on my section hike this fall and leave my Extreme home. But I'm not sure yet - still gotta manage 2 weeks of alcohol....

br

br

8:05 p.m. on July 15, 2004 (EDT)
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filters

Not US Filter. Gary works for a company that distributes all sorts of industrial gear (like a very nice, waterproof to 100 meters, very bright LED headlamp). The filters he gave me as samples are labelled Hayward Filter, located in New Jersey (last time I was in NJ, you needed filters for the tap water and the air you wanted to breathe, and no, that wasn't the Pine Barrens, it was the world center of industrial pollution, namely the Joisy Shoah, just across the river from Manhattan).

8:54 a.m. on July 16, 2004 (EDT)
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Hayward! Well known company....

Huge name in swimming pool equipment.

7:40 p.m. on July 16, 2004 (EDT)
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Re: Nice stove

Jim, I bought a Primus Micron with the piezo starter. It fits on a SnowPeak 110 g canister-not the Gaz-different fitting. It works great and put out a lot of heat for a tiny stove. I'd trust that more than alcohol. It fits in a Primus Trek Kettle, but I took a bigger pot as well on a recent overnight. Only thing is keeping track of how long it has been on so you know how much fuel is left. I still think it's worth carrying something like my Nova except on an overnight or maybe a weekend. I burned alcohol in an XGK when I couldn't find anything else (what Kiwi's call Meths-methylated spirits)which put out far less heat than white gas and gets used up really quickly.

12:53 p.m. on July 19, 2004 (EDT)
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Tracking fuel usage in a canister

Since TomD mentioned the question of knowing how much fuel is left in a compressed gas canister, here are a couple of things that work -

When you are packing for your trip, weigh the canister. I have included the weights of the full and empty canisters for the various brands and sizes of compressed gas I use, so I can just subtract the "tare" (weight of an empty) and get how much fuel is left. I use a kitchen scale for this that gives the weight to 1/8 ounce or nearest gram. I also weigh when I get back and write it on the canister with a grease pencil. This gives a pretty good record of fuel usage rate as well for future planning. Obviously, this doesn't work while on the trip.

You can get a rough idea by just shaking the canister and listening to it. This requires gaining some experience over time. By the way, the stove and canister manufacturers say to never shake the canister while the stove is operating - so the usual caveat: Never do anything with your stove that is not specifically approved by the manufacturer.

If it is at all humid (pay attention here, Ed!), just look at the side of the canister while the stove is running. You will see condensation on the canister that shows very clearly what the fuel level is. In really cold weather, this may even be frost, which is even more visible.

You can spend the bucks to buy one of the little liquid crystal strips that you fasten to the side of the canister. This does the same thing as the condensation on the side does. The strips use a chemical that changes color with temperature, so you can see where the chilled liquid in the canister is. Same thing as the 1970s "mood rings".

If you always run your stove at the same level, you can keep track of the time. But if you do gourmet cooking, where you bring the water to a boil, then simmer for 10 or 15 minutes, you can end up way off in your estimate.

Tom brings up a good point, although he doesn't make it explicit, which rarely gets mentioned. The weight you really want to think about is the combined weight of stove and fuel. Even with the superlight Pepsi can stoves that weigh only an ounce or so, you have to carry the alcohol in some sort of container. Since alcohol produces about half the heat per unit weight as petroleum-based fuels, you have to carry about twice as much of it. Add the weight of the container, alcohol, and half a coke can, then compare that to a Primus Micron or Markill Hotrod (or similar stove) and a small Snowpeak canister. The alcohol comes out somewhat lighter. But if you consider a longer trip, where you have to carry, say, a quart of alcohol, vs a 16 ounce canister of butane/propane mix, (this is about 6-8 person-days of cooking), the compressed gas stove comes out lighter. I chose that amount for another reason - that is the crossover point for compressed gas and liquid fuel for the lighter liquid fuel stoves (like the Simmerlite).

One other item about compressed gas - the Snowpeak 110g canister is by far the most expensive butane/propane mix you can buy per unit weight of fuel. Snowpeak is also more expensive in the more common 225 gram size (Primus is usually the cheapest per ounce, although the MSR and Markill mixes that use isobutane instead of butane work to lower temperatures). The 450 gram canisters are even cheaper per ounce. Plus, the tare weight of the 450 g containers is a smaller percentage of the total weight.

One question, Tom - how did you get in a situation that you couldn't find anything except meths to burn in the XGK? The XGK will burn not only "white gas" and kerosene, but also autogas (unleaded preferred), avgas (LL preferred), jet fuel, car diesel (marine diesel is too variable in quality if you get it in 3rd world countries, but what's available in NZ, Oz, US, EU, etc works just fine). I have burned all those in my XGKs, and in my Primus MFS.

5:56 a.m. on July 20, 2004 (EDT)
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Bill, what is the website to check out those old stoves?

I don't need to see the fuel level - when the stove "sputters", I snap on another can.

I did the boiling test to see how much fuel is burned with the camping gaz 470 cannister. I used 1 oz of fuel to bring to a rolling boil water in a 22 cup aluminum coffee pot at ~75 degrees F.

11:04 a.m. on July 20, 2004 (EDT)
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website to check out those old stoves

Hey, Ed, why did you need 5 1/2 quarts of coffee? Is it that hard to wake up in the morning? I don't think I could drink 22 cups of anything at one sitting ;=>D And it must have been a super cold snap to be only 75F down there in Florida.

Anyway, about the websites, these have appeared on this site a number of times -

www.asahi-net.or.jp/~we2a-sod/stove/stoveie.htm

www.spiritburner.com/

www.geocities.com/yosemite/gorge/6201/stoves.html

And as a reminder of Mike Buckler's "fuels" site -

www.iinet.net.au/~mbuckler/fuel/index.html

By the way, in looking over the Rock&Ice Magazine stove review this month, I notice some significant differences between results that Jim S and I have gotten over the years and their numbers. I don't understand the differences, which are huge in some cases. For example, for the Primus MFS and Omni models, they show a very slow time for the MFS on compressed gas and a time about 25 percent slower than the liquid fuel time for the Omni on compressed gas. First, the MFS and Omni differ only slightly in construction, so should behave virtually the same. They use the same burner and jets, which should give exactly the same output (except for small manufacturing differences from one stove to the next). Second, I find virtually the same boil time for the MFS on white gas and butane, not the factor of almost 2 slower that they show (I use the MFS as my primary stove and switch among white gas, butane/propane, and kerosene all the time). They show the MSR Superfly as a remote cartridge, where the Superfly actually mounts on the canister (and is the only stove that will mount on both the standard threaded canisters and Gaz canisters). The story implies that you can mount all canister stoves on pure propane cartridges, which is not correct. Stoves using pure propane need a reducing valve in the line someplace, and the butane mix stoves do not have this (that's why the stove tops are so much lighter in weight than the propane stoves). Their table even shows the Coleman Exponent stoves as taking propane cartridges. Among the liquid fuel stoves, the MSR Simmerlite is shown as requiring 4:20 to boil, although mine boils as fast or faster than my Primus MFS and MSR XGK and Whisperlite (all in the 3:05 or less range). They show the MFS and XGK as taking close to 3:00. Among the fuels, the article talks about isobutane, while the tables refer to isopropane (in the CRC Handbook, these mean slightly different compounds).

The last paragraph in the article is a hilariously wrong comment on hanging stoves. It says, first, that the Superfly is the "only" stove that converts to a hanging system. Obviously, the author has never seen the Markill or Bibler, which have been around for decades. Second, it says that the way to do the conversion is to use a large aluminum pot with a hole cut in the bottom (hey, Jim, they must have been reading your posts!!). Well, gee, folks, you can do this with most of the canister-mount stoves, and even liquid fuel stoves, as people have done for years. The last sentence says you can get the Superfly already converted, which implies that the hanging version of the Superfly uses a large aluminum pot. Wrong! The Superfly conversion consists of a titanium folding crossbar that supports the burner and has the hanging cables, a reflector shield that slips under the burner, resting on the crossbar, and a titanium heat exchanger/windshield that fastens around yout pot(placed inside the hanging cables). This all folds up fairly small - no bulky pot with a hole in the bottom. The Superfly as a hanging stove works astoundingly well, by the way - 2:45 boil times, faster than any other backpacking/climbing stove I have used. I have set up side by side comparisons of up to 5 stoves simultaneously and the Superfly comes out fastest every time in the hanging configuration (ok, 10-15 seconds isn't much, but still it is fast).

While the article has a lot of good information, I am afraid that the blunders reduce the usefulness with mistakes and misleading information.

11:35 a.m. on July 20, 2004 (EDT)
30 reviewer rep
1,238 forum posts
Thanks Bill!...

looks like I have the 470 stove.

after arriving at my camp site and setting everything up, I have to hike ~1.5 more miles to the nearest sulphur well.

I hump back ~5 gallons of water (40lbs) another ~1.5 more miles.

All this water needs to be treated. I find I can boil practically all the water I will need for drinking for the next couple of days in one evening using the 22 cup pot.

I consume all this water myself and usually have none left after 3 nights/3 days...I'm well hydrated!

I typically have three cups of coffee in the morning. I will admit, I sure do love those coffee bags similar to tea bags.

4:50 p.m. on February 21, 2005 (EST)
(Guest)

Re: Different alcohol stoves

I just got one ot these Sigg stoves of the Trangia style... but there are no directions. So I would like to know how you put the alcohol in it! D you just pour it into the middle? I don't see any other way.

Thanks

Barry

5:25 p.m. on March 9, 2005 (EST)
(Guest)

Re: website to check out those old stoves

I am wondering what a yotul wood burning stove would be worth .The model is an old 602.How old I don't know but the legs were missing and my husband built a platform with legs for it,otherwise it is in good shape.Please let me know what you think it might be worth.Thanks
Shelley Lake

8:57 p.m. on March 17, 2005 (EST)
37 reviewer rep
747 forum posts
New ideas?

Yeh Bill even Rock and Ice [and others] occasionally have to come to us for some "new" ideas _ Too bad they can't get the data right - this isn't the first time they blew it stove testing - sloppy work.
I wrote a post a while back about the evolution of tents and how their design sort of came full circle and then around again. Its kinda funny to see some of the "new" tents which are nothing but the old trapper tents made of new materials. Humans have used just about every kind of material to build tents but there are a limited number of designs that work, and most are prehistoric in origin.
Anyway I noticed that I started this thread with my UL summer list from last summer. I am really hot to go skinny dipping in the mountains - can hardly wait for August and September. I can float on a lake on my Warmlight DAM dreaming of winter camping... (;->)
Jim S
P.S. I am now a realestate rehabilitater and I've been working ten hours a day 6 days a week for 2 months and now that house is on the market and I can actually get onto the net.

September 2, 2014
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