Anyone ever go a night with only a bag, no pad?

I'm just wondering if a sleeping pad is as nessicary as I've been led to beleive. Then again, I'm not going to try it on my own...

All the time when I was a kid (pre thermarest and before closed cell??) and it sucked. Quite a few older folks I know still don't use anything but they bred em tough in the olden days.

Why don't you try taking your sleeping mat with you and try sleeping without it...then if you don't like the feel of that cold lumpy ground you can jump on your cush mat and finish the night in comfort.

A pad is not only for comfort, it is for insulation from the cold ground....I've recently made efforts to become an ultralight hiker which basically means that you must give up a lot of comfort. I used to carry a self-inflatable pad that weighed as much as a sleeping bag, but now I've learned to deal with a blue foam pad cut in half which weighs virtually nothing. It takes a little getting used to but it insulates and gives a little cushion for your back. Just an idea because it sounds like you don't want to carry any excess weight....

bring your pad and don't use it unless you have to.
I sleep on a hard mattress, so hard surface doesn't bother me, but you could be very different. I've also slept on debris and sandy surfaces in a few overnight trips. Once, I've fallen asleep on the middle of a gravel road... that was during an 18-hr ROGAINE, I was then really really dead tired. And oh, I slept once at about 0F wearing my full winter parka (no pad, no bag)... just to try out my limit. Never again. Cheers :-))

>... if a sleeping pad is as nessicary as I've been led to beleive.

Hmmm ... How "necessary" have you been led to believe the pad is? Generations of humans got along just fine without sleeping pads before Thermarest came along.

Anyway, it really depends on the conditions, and it depends on you (ever seen or heard the SleepNumber bed ads?). In some parts of the world, you can find a nice spot with a cushion of leaves or grass that is a soft as any bed. When I was very young, the drill included cutting fir boughs (those who know me will say "Hunnnh?? But you grew up in the Arizona desert! What "fir boughs"?" Well, yeah, but see, that was in the "real woodsman" books. We just used cactus - hah!) Another alternative was to smooth the ground and dig a "hip hole". Course, that was also when we were told to "ditch" the tent (dig a trench around it to re-direct the rain runoff). But in these more environmentally conscious days, we don't do that anymore.

If you pick a smooth area, or one that fits your body, or sand, and (very important) you do not need the insulation, then you can get along without a pad. But, as a couple others said, the pad serves as insulation as well. If you are snow camping or your sleeping bag is on the thin side, the insulation from the ground of the pad is very important. On Denali, for example, we use a double layer of pad (a blue foam plus a thermarest). An air mattress (the kind with tubes, but no foam inside) provides no insulation and is very cold on snow - ok in summer. A hammock is plenty comfortable for most people, but the air circulating around it makes this a poor choice in winter (besides, you need two trees or other attach points the right distance apart). Cots also let the air circulate all around you and are too cold in winter, but are fine in summer (if a bit heavy for backpacking).

But sometimes I do just bivouac, sometimes by choice. In that case, I carry only a warm enough parka and wind shells (or rain shells, if there is the possibility of wet). Yes, in winter, too.

Simple short answer - yes, I have gone for a night (up to a week) with a bag and no pad, and even for several nights with no bag and no pad. Like Les said, if you are tired enough, you can sleep anywhere (but watch out for that car in the middle of the night, Les!)

I've got two pads, a Thermorest I bought just for winter and a Ridgerest which weighs next to nothing. I don't see much point in sleeping on the ground, getting my bag dirty and being uncomfortable just to save a few ounces or prove a point of some kind.

I've posted some of my photo at
http://ca.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/whitetailmec/my_photos

0010b: group lean-to, the ridge poles are at about waist high, about 1-2ft of leaves for bedding, 1ft of leaves on top, a fire pit on the left. The leaves are kept from spreading out using small tree trunks.

0014b: Tom Brown's style debris hut, cattail mattress/blanket. See TB at http://www.trackerschool.com/

0015b: 3/4 debris hut, the Y-fork/ridgepole is at waist height.

0063b: the survival blanket is tied at about 1.5ft off from the ground; it is folded on top of a bed of leaves.

0067b: a bed of leaves, about 1 foot high, is kept in place by a small tree trunk on each side. Very much like the two poles of an army stretcher. Since there is a lack of contrast, a red ridgerest is placed on top of the leaves for reference.

Well, I Normally carry a thermarest because I am lazy. But for awhile I would take the time to hunt around for a campsite, and pile leaves and pine needles up next to a log or rocks. This was always comfortable, and kept me warm. But it took energy and time to hunt for the right spot, and when your tired it sucks! So, if your not lazy, then you dont need one. But I figure if I'm taking the energy to pack into these places then it's ok to be a little lazy and carry a pad.
J

"... for awhile I would take the time to hunt around for a campsite, and pile leaves and pine needles up next to a log or rocks. ...."

Many years ago, this approach was considered acceptable. However, it was realized that the practice of moving leaves and needles, or cutting fir boughs and piling them up, has some serious negative environmental impacts. Same with setting the tent up in that nice soft meadow. Thoughtful backpackers and campers follow Leave No Trace principles. The one that applies in this case is "Camp and travel on durable surfaces." Camping on the meadow packs down the vegetation and can kill it, causing permanent damage (easy to see when you pick up the tent and see all the crushed and dying vegetation). Moving leaves and pine needles from their natural location is moving the food source for other vegetation (the decayed leaves, needles, and branches, as well as logs), and shelter and habitat for small creatures. Cutting fir boughs causes obvious damage to trees.

Humans do enough damage to the wilderness as it is, just by our presence. Everyone should learn and practice Leave No Trace.

I never did have a pad until I was 24 and tried out a bubble pack pad - they break leaving you on a hard surface. I finally could afford a blue foam closed cell pad - a thin one, and I was amazed at how much more comfy it was. Now I carry my Down Filled Air mattress - and NO you do not have to give up comfort to be an ultralite camper. I think a lot of new would be campers with nothing are clinging to the ultralite idea because it seems cheaper than buying all that gear. Why suffer to camp? I don't - do you suffer camping Bill S?
Jim YMMV

Jim said:
"Why suffer to camp? I don't - do you suffer camping, Bill S?"

Bill answers:

No, I don't suffer when camping. In fact, I am often more comfortable than when staying in a hotel or motel, even the fancy ones that my company used to send me to on business trips. And, as Jim notes (and both he and I have described in our posts here), we rarely go over 20-25 pounds on a weekend trip, the exception being winter snow camping. If it is head in Sat AM and out by Sun early PM, it is usually well below 20 pounds (even including the bottle of "grape juice").

depends on where and when. winter? you need the insulation between you and the snow. if the weather is more mild, i have slept on a tarp right on the ground, preferably with some leaves or pine needles beneath, with a drop-cloth strung overhead to keep the wet off. have also slept in a hammock, takes some getting used to. closed cell pads are the least expensive and lightest option in terms of weight.

I've done exactly the opposite from this, No Sleeping Bag, but a pad well sort of. I've posted this on both www.backpacker.net (Trip Reports Forum) and on www.backpacker.com (Northwest Trip Forum)

October Overnight 'sans' Down 'Bag

Recently this late October up in the Alpine Lakes Wilderness (WA state) about 4,200-ft, I did a dayhike that ended up being an overnighter, sans sleeping bag. The next lake over from me 500-feet higher and 2-miles away had 4+ inches snow on the ground.

Because this was a Dayhike where I planned for lousy weather (typical this time of year) and wanted to enjoy a hot lunch I had packed some extra's. When I got to Snow Lake, I didn't want to leave after just a few hours so made the ballsy decision to stay overnight.

I had my Sil Tarp 2 rigged with a single trekking pole, a half width cut reflective Sportman's Blanket/Ground Sheet, and my Thermolite (reflective) waterproof Bivy Sack which I was looking forward to give a REAL test.

During the night the wind picked up immensely coming off the lake it if not for my windshirt or packlite shell it was fierce enough to kill someone if they were trapped outside without any protection. It blew hard all night and all morning long.

I took a photo of myself holding my Sil Tarp up and it was flapping like crazy all horizontally as I held it above my head with arms stretched wide. It didn't take long at all for that intense wind to dry it out the following morning when I packed up my campsite.

After dinner, watching my bonfire die down, I went to bed at 12-midnight without changing into spare Capilene bottoms (didn't have any), but I did have a pair of thick Pile Booties and change of socks. I wore these and a pair of El Cap fleece Pants (Patagoina), a Mircofleece Zip-T and my new Down Sweater (5.8-oz's 800-fill), and my Packlite III GoreTex shell over everything, plus a light fleece hat and for my hands a cheap pair of Mircofleece Gloves and Lobster Claw Rain Mitts.

I removed the gray Evazote pad from my Zero Sarc and stuck my legs inside the Pack while I was concooned in the Thermolite Bivy.

Everything worked well except for one small oversite on my part. My Evazote Pad in the Pack was not long enough nor was the tiny 12" x 18" Evazote Sit Pad and together I had to decide where to place the insulation to best suit me. I later moved the larger pad to under my thighs but it still left a huge gap of space and in the end I was freezing after only one hour's time!

I estimated the temperature at around +35 degrees, lots of breath seen in the air, but no frost on the ground. I did have condensation on the underside of my Tarp.

So I got up rather quickly put my boots back on and scoured the immediate area for more twigs to get the FIRE going again, and finally when flames were going on the huge pile of coals I went searching for log material all the time wondering when ole' Mr. Bear might come looking for my food bags.

I discovered that thick Bark burns best and fed what became my 11-hour Bonfire partially sleeping briefly against a rock face wearing my Down Sweater just 3-feet from the Fire and sitting all night on a huge, flat piece of 2-inch thick Bark.

To sum it up with the clothing system all I needed were 3-more items.

1. My 48" long Evazote Pad so my entire body would have insulated from the cold ground.

2. MORE Food!

3. A Water Bag - the two trips down a steep, rocky slope to get cooking water with only a tiny Titan Kettle (28-fluid oz's) was a cold waste of precious time. My 2.5-gallon (4-oz)collapsible water bag or even a 3-qt Platypus bladder would have been ideal.

The reflective Thermolite Bivy worked surprisingly well for what it really is. But turning over inside, the Velcro kept opening up and I wished for a drawcord to close up the gap and a hood would make a nice improvement. I don't remember having any condensation inside but then again I was IN the thing for only an hour.

A longer Evazote Pad was ALL I really needed. I remain totally convinced I've have achieved a decent night's sleep if my E'pad were...longer.

I learned alot, what worked and didn't and in the future I could see myself going bag-less again but not in late October, more like early Sept when all the bugs are history.

If you are packing the right clothes, layering system with a change of spare Base Layer(s), and my Down Sweater again, and a 1/4-inch thick, 20" x 60" Evazote Bivy Pad (6.5-oz's) with a Thermolite Bivy would take up very little space and would make a nice emergency system in conditions where rainfall is not a threat.

Next time I'd like to do it with my GTX Bivy Sack and maybe a Silk Mummy Liner...in Sept well below 5,000 feet.

I whole heartedly recommend packing a 'reflective' Thermolite Bivy for Dayhikers, ...they work...provided you have a insulated Pad beneath you. :)

Around 7:30 a.m. I got back in my Bivy under the Tarp and actually slept for about 90-minutes.

I returned from my trip quite HAPPY, but due to the awesome wind coming off the lake I took in way too much smoke and my eyes were quite bloodshot when I crashed back on my couch at home. LOL :)

Note: I do NOT promote what I did for just anyone to just go out and do. I've been Backpacking and Dayhiking for more than 20-years now. I know my limitations and strengths. I'm experienced with my gear and have the knowledge to use it properly. I've been hiking in this respective area every single year in all seasons except Winter (i.e., deep snowpack) so am quite famaliar with the area and it's varied terrain. Lastly, prior to leaving for this Dayhike I followed the weather for over week on the news and informed my girlfriend the details about where I was going before I left the house.

I used a pad for years but don't usually now. I seem to feel just as comfortable without it. But then again I always could sleep just as easily on the floor as on a bed.