Changes in the past few dacades

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4:32 p.m. on May 8, 2006 (EDT)
FLwoodsman
Junior Member

Joined: May 7, 2006
Posts: 6
Changes in the past few dacades

Hi all. I'll be doing some backpacking this summer. It's been awhile since I've done any (like 25 years). Many things have changed. Some of the most notable changes are (1)the necessity for bear canisters, at least in the Western mountains, and (2) the prices of stuff. Given this I have the following questions:
1. $75 for a bear canister? There must be another way. I thought about making something out of 8" PVC pipe, but that is very heavy. Any ideas?
2. $75 for an 8' x 5' tarp, and $25 for a pair of gaiters? GIMME A BREAK!!! These are REI prices. Are there less-expensive sources of equipment out there? Those items used to be insignificant in terms of the total cost of equipment.
Also, I intend to get pretty remote. I'd like to pack my shotgun, but it's heavy and I don't want to get arrested for having a long gun out of hunting season. Any thoughts from anyone on that? It's ok to yell at me for considering taking a gun - I value all opinions, even if yours is wrong (ha ha).
Thanks!

 
5:21 p.m. on May 8, 2006 (EDT)
Terrible Tom (Guest)

Re: Changes in the past few dacades

I don't know of many (or any, really) places where carrying a long gun in the woods is a crime, even if no open season exists. In parts of the west, small game like squirrels and rabbits are completely unregulated - basically treated as varmints and not as game animals. Most of the time, carrying a shotgun would be legal, even if it were inconvenient. The Springfield Armory M6 Scout over/under might be worth considering. At 36oz (empty) you get either 22LR or 22 Hornet over 410ga shotgun. Not exactly grizzly medicine but then it's not 8 pounds either--and if you're hungry for rabbit or squirrel...

Gear can be expensive, but don't forget about inflation. 25 years ago you could buy a new Mustang for $10K. That same car is nearly $30K today, so your $75 tarp is really only 25 1980 dollars. There's also a good chance that your 1980 tarp was made of dramatically inferior materials compared to the $75 tarp. I'm carrying quite a bit of early 1990's gear and could upgrade to better and lighter gear for less than I originally spent. My tent was $350 and the direct descendent is larger, lighter and less than half the price.

I have never used a bear canister and don't think I would unless I was headed someplace like Yellowstone where bears are really common. Put your food in a bag and string it up if you're worried about bears. If you decide to carry a bear canister, don't be too upset by the price. The materials involved offer an incredible strength:weight ratio and the market is very limited. It's not like they're selling millions of 'em, so the per-unit mfr. costs are high.

 
8:28 p.m. on May 8, 2006 (EDT)
Bill S
OGBO

Joined: Mar 14, 2001
Posts: 2511
Changes

About the only places that carrying a gun is illegal are the National Parks. However, discharging the gun is illegal out of season and without a license except for emergencies (and even then you may have a hard time proving it was an emergency - there have been cases where someone killed a bear in "self defense" and was fined because it was decided it wasn't really an emergency - don't even try to understand).

As Tom says, prices 25 years ago seemed tremendously expensive at the time. Remember that gas was 30 cents a gallon then vs well over $3/gal at the discount stations now, and a Mustang was about 4000 bucks (not yet up to $10k that Tom remembers). 22 years ago we bought our outrageously expensive house in the SFBay area for less than $200k. A house just across the street and 2 up is being sold for $1.7M, and it's still a 1950s tarpaper tract shack on a postage-stamp sized lot - 10 times as much in 2 decades (gee, I guess I could sell this place and live in a tent ... homeless millionaires).

As for bear canisters - well, that's what comes of expanding the urban/wilderness interface into the bears' territory (or in our local case, mountain lions - we have had 3 lions in the past 3 years within a mile of our house in the Midtown area, one of which was killed within 3 blocks of 2 elementary schools, which made national news because the cops shot the poor puddy tat). Just over the hill in Santa Cruz, there have been bears into the downtown area. The bears have become used to the presence of humans signalling food. Since they are quite intelligent, they have learned how to get at food in backpacks, cars, and recently in the Lake Tahoe area, recognizing through the windows of houses when there is food in the refrigerator (yes, bears really raiding the fridge by breaking into houses). Look on the Yosemite NP website for photos of bears breaking into cars. Seems they have learned certain cars are very easy to break into.

There are a couple of solutions. You can plan your trip to stay at campgrounds that have steel bear boxes. More and more of the campgrounds in the western US in the back country and front country have these. A number of the more popular campsites along the John Muir Trail have them. There are shelters along the Appalachian Trail and throughout Smokey Mountain that allow keeping the food from the bears (kinda amusing, folks sitting inside the shelter with a chain mesh over the entrance with the bears frolicking outside, looking at the human exhibit cowering in the back corner of their cage).

In the eastern half of the country, you can probably get away with an Ursack still, although I think it is as expensive as the canisters. Ursacks are not approved in the Sierra, Yellowstone, Glacier, or Denali, since the bears have learned to deal with those. Not all canisters on the market are approved in the Sierra (seems the bears have learned how to get into the Bear Vault, for example). Counterbalance hanging works in many areas, although Yosemite bears learned that trick years ago.

Sorry, but your homemade PVC pipe container won't be accepted in the western parks or national forests, unless you submit a sample for testing and it passes (PVC containers have never managed to pass, although they do get allowed for poop tubes in the increasing number of areas where you are required to pack out *all* human waste).

$25 for gaiters? Where? Must be on super sale. Most of the ones at REI are well over $50. As for the $75 tarp, you can get one of the blue tarps from WalMart for $10-15. Not that they last very long, but that's a lot less than $75. Then again, I just use a 3-mil plastic dropcloth. Works just fine.

Still, on your shotgun - why bother? You can't legally use it out of season, and if you practice common sense, you won't need it to defend yourself against the wildlife. I've been wandering the woods and hills for many decades and never had a problem with bear or lion (did have a few losses to raccoon and marmot, though, plus mice - and the mice got into a food bag that was hung in a tree!). I've taken hundreds of photos of griz in the wild from within 50 feet, no problem. You just have to respect their territory and understand their rules of the game. Violate the rules (as Timothy did in a big way), and you will have problems. Oh, and before you comment, I have hunted various sizes of game, up to lion, with firearms and bow (not anymore, though).

 
1:18 p.m. on May 9, 2006 (EDT)
Brian in SLC
Senior Member

Joined: May 23, 2002
Posts: 396
Re: Changes in the past few dacades

Shotgun is heavy. I can't think of anywhere that allows you to have one, for hunting or target practise, that would make it illegal just to carry. Folks shoot year 'round out west. Hunting season or no. Try a Bennelli in M1 Super 90. 'Bout as light as I'd care to go for a 12 gauge. Sawed off with a pistol grip might be lighter, but, not as functional or practical and, has social implications that may make it not worth the effort (illegal on some states too, methinks).

That said, can't think of anywhere I'd absolutely feel the need to pack any type of firearm in the lower 48, except maybe known grizzly country in the very remote, and I'd be sportin' an under powered handgun at the most.

Speakin' of shot guns, though, I note that Thompson Center Contender makes a nice model thats pretty light weight. Illegal in some states (CA I'm pretty sure). Mine (ahem) has a 10" barrel and I've plucked a grouse from the air with it...so...kinda neato. Very packable. Single shot, not easy to reload quickly...

Try campin' gear at your local army/navy surplus store, or, one of the big cheap chains like kameapart or wallmart. Still get a tarp for around 2 bucks those places.

Cheers,

-Brian in SLC

 
4:02 p.m. on May 9, 2006 (EDT)
Prelucir
Full Member

Joined: Apr 23, 2006
Posts: 63
Re: Changes in the past few dacades

FLwoodsman,

I am not sure about the guns. I often carry a 9mm. I guess I do that to humor myself more than anything else. This year I have decided to try and get along without it.

As for prices. REI is often outrageous. I rarely buy anything from them unless they are the only game in town. I have found several other sources that I like.

campmor.com
and
Sportsman's Warehouse

are the two that I use most at this time.

I have also come across a few no-name web sites with great deals.

If you look hard enough, you find what you are looking for at a reasonable price.

Lots of luck,
John

 
6:08 p.m. on May 9, 2006 (EDT)
doug
Junior Member

Joined: Jun 15, 2005
Posts: 20
Re: Changes in the past few dacades

Flwoodsman:
There are a number of websites that have kits and patterns for making your own gear. Someday I hope to give it a try myself.
Good luck
Doug

 
7:31 p.m. on May 9, 2006 (EDT)
Bill S
OGBO

Joined: Mar 14, 2001
Posts: 2511
shotgun carry

Brian -
We have a backcountry ranger (USFS seasonal type) do a lengthy presentation at the scout leaders high adventure backpacking course we give. The question always comes up from people who have seen hunter types with all sorts of firearms in our local forests and designated wilderness areas here in CA. The answer is jsut what I gave - it is legal to carry the guns (shotgun, rifle, pistol, black powder - if it isn't one specifically listed as prohibited in CA state regs, plus there are some specific parts of the National Forests where firearms of any types are prohibited) not only in the National Forests, but in most designated Wilderness Areas in the National Forests. However, you can't discharge it except in season and with a license for the specific season. I personally first ran across this taking a scout troop into the Mokulumne Wilderness about 15 years back. We found several live rounds at the campsite we stayed at within the Wilderness, and later saw a couple backpackers with rifles, which prompted asking at the USFS station just down the road from the trailhead. Question, of course, is why carry the 5-10 extra pounds if you can't discharge the weapon even for target practice.

 
9:15 a.m. on May 10, 2006 (EDT)
Brian in SLC
Senior Member

Joined: May 23, 2002
Posts: 396
Re: shotgun carry

Really, Bill? That's a, say, Sierra National Forest regulation? Or Inyo, for example?

Crazy. Folks have to go to a private range to plink?

To my knowledge, there are no such restrictions in WY, MT, ID, NV and MT (all places I've seen, heard, and, uhh, otherwise experienced firearm discharge outside a hunting season).

Might not surprise me in California.

-Brian in SLC

 
9:54 a.m. on May 10, 2006 (EDT)
Brian in SLC
Senior Member

Joined: May 23, 2002
Posts: 396
Re: shotgun carry

Aha...applys to wilderness only.

See below. Fire away!

These regulations are pretty similar to everywhere in the west, with the possible exception of wilderness areas out here. I'll check on that too.

-Brian in SLC

The Inyo National Forest does restrict the use of firearms in some areas. Discharging a firearm or any other implement capable of taking human life, causing injury or damaging property is prohibited:
In or within 150 yards of a residence, building, campsite, developed recreation area or occupied area;
across or on a Forest Development road, hiking trail or body of water adjacent therto, or in any manner or place whereby any person or property is exposed to injury or damage as a result of such discharge;
Within the wilderness, firearm use is not allowed except for emergencies and lawful hunting (as allowed by State law).


Sierra:

Do not discharge firearms, air rifles or gas guns, except for emergencies and the taking of legal game, as per the State of California fish and game laws. Target practicing is prohibited and is disturbing to others who seek solitude in the wilderness.

http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/sierra/recreation/tripplan/index.shtml

Click on hunting and use of firearms.

 
9:58 a.m. on May 10, 2006 (EDT)
Brian in SLC
Senior Member

Joined: May 23, 2002
Posts: 396
Re: shotgun carry

Uinta National Forest regs. Can't see any restrictions on wilderness areas. And, they even have a separate page for target shooting.

Brian in SLC

Recreational Activities

Target Shooting

Although there are no designated shooting areas on the Uinta National Forest, target shooting is allowed as long as the applicable regulations (listed below) are followed.

SAFETY FIRST
Safe Location - You must be at least 150 yards away from any residence, building, campground, developed recreation site, or occupied area. Know where your bullets are going at all times. Choose a remote area. Is there a safe backdrop for your targets and bullets? Rocky areas can be unsafe due to bullet ricochets.

Targets - Bring your own targets and clean them up afterwards. Trees, animals, buildings, and signs are not appropriate targets. Pick up brass and shotgun shells when before leaving.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Regulations
Firearms
"The following are prohibited . . . (d) Discharging a firearm or any other implement capable of taking human life, causing injury, or damaging property as follows:

In or within 150 yards of a residence, building, campsite, developed recreation site or occupied area, or
Across or on a National Forest System road or a body of water adjacent thereto, or in any manner or place whereby any person or property is exposed to injury or damage as a result in such discharge.
Into or within any cave." (36 CFR 261.10(d))
Destruction or Removal of Property
"The following are prohibited: (a) Damaging any natural feature or other property of the United States. (b) Removing any natural feature or other property of the United States." (36 CFR 261.9(a) and (b))

Garbage
"The following are prohibited . . . (d) Failing to dispose of all garbage, including any paper, can, bottle, sewage, waste water or material, or rubbish either by removal from the site or area, or by depositing it into receptacles or at places provided for such purposes." (36 CFR 261.11(d))

 
11:04 a.m. on May 10, 2006 (EDT)
Terrible Tom (Guest)

Re: shotgun carry

---Quoted material---
Destruction or Removal of Property
"The following are prohibited: (a) Damaging any natural feature or other property of the United States. (b) Removing any natural feature or other property of the United States." (36 CFR 261.9(a) and (b))
---End Quote

Are you saying that target practice or any firearm discharge is inherently illegal under the 'Destruction of Property' clause, even though it is specifically allowed elsewhere in the regs?

---More Quoted Material---
Garbage
"The following are prohibited . . . (d) Failing to dispose of all garbage, including any paper, can, bottle, sewage, waste water or material, or rubbish either by removal from the site or area, or by depositing it into receptacles or at places provided for such purposes." (36 CFR 261.11(d))
---End Quote---

Again, are you saying that failing to pick up your bullets constitutes littering? The regs do require target shooters to clean up their empty brass, targets, etc. Again, since target shooting is specifically allowed elsewhere, I don't think you could get a conviction on the basis of bullets = litter.

I have never carried a firearm while backpacking and I prefer to do my target shooting at a designated shooting range. However, in many places designated shooting ranges are simply not available and many folks from places like that can and do legally shoot targets on various public lands. I will admit that some target shooters are more responsible than others and that some violate the regs (including the littering and destruction of property regs) but the majority abide by all of the regs.

 
11:17 a.m. on May 10, 2006 (EDT)
Brian in SLC
Senior Member

Joined: May 23, 2002
Posts: 396
Re: shotgun carry

>Are you saying that target practice or any firearm discharge is inherently illegal under the 'Destruction of Property' clause, even though it is specifically allowed elsewhere in the regs?

Huh? I copied directly from regulations. I'm not saying it.

No, I don't read it that way. I see it as firearm discharge is legal as long as you don't destroy property.

>Again, are you saying that failing to pick up your bullets constitutes littering?

Me again? No. Not me. Its a regulation (even the CFR is referenced).

I'd assume that the statement is meant so folks pick up their emtpy shells. Leavin' hundreds of empty shot gun shell husks (hulls, methinks we call 'em) is littering. Most folks probably pick them up. Some don't, however.

I used to reload a bunch, so, didn't mind so much. Except when I forgot to check the empty, and must have had a spider web in a shotgun shell I'd reloaded....wierd delay...scary. More careful after that...

-Brian in SLC

 
11:42 a.m. on May 10, 2006 (EDT)
Bill S
OGBO

Joined: Mar 14, 2001
Posts: 2511
Re: shotgun carry

An interesting inconsistency is that camps on USFS land (leased under a permit system) are allowed to have ranges for shooting sports (rifle, pistol, shotgun, black powder, bow, ...). In general, the ranges have structures on them (storage, for the target throw, stands, etc.), so folks are launching from less than the stated distance from structures. Some areas, like Huntington Lake (Sierra National Forest), have a large number of camps leased by private companies (Gold Arrow), YMCA, Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, church groups, most of which have ranges. On the litter, the camp on Huntington that is leased by the Boy Scout Council I work with most and the neighboring camp were required to clean up all the shot from the shotgun range - lots of lead out there for the local wildlife to pick up.

 
5:36 p.m. on May 10, 2006 (EDT)
FLwoodsman
Junior Member

Joined: May 7, 2006
Posts: 6
Re: Changes in the past few dacades

Thank you for all the feedback. This turned into an interesting one! I guess I'll leave my shotgun at home. Back in the day I had plenty of contact with black bears with never a problem. I suppose they haven't morphed into a new man-eating species in the past 25 years. Grizzlies & the big cats are a complete unknown to me. Even though seeing one would be a thrill of a lifetime, it sounds like contact in the lower 48 is unlikely.
Ok, ok, I'll get a bear canister (it's GOT to beat the heck outa tree-hangs). How do you keep the bears from rolling the canisters down the hill, though?

 
8:34 p.m. on May 10, 2006 (EDT)
Bill S
OGBO

Joined: Mar 14, 2001
Posts: 2511
Re: Changes in the past few dacades

FLwoodsman asks:
"How do you keep the bears from rolling the canisters down the hill, though?"

Place them carefully in an area where they won't roll very far (easier said than done in some cases!). In most areas, the bears have learned to recognize them and won't bother them. Garcia and other manufacturers recommend you line the canister with a plastic bag to minimize the food and other odors, hence minimize the attraction. And yes, ALL smellables should go in the bear box - food, toothpaste, deodorant (why would anyone take deodorant on a backpacking or climbing trip?), photo film (get a digicam!), anything that might smell attractive to a bear. Yes, bears drink beer. They recognize the cans, bite through the aluminum, and slurp it up (my ranger friend in Yosemite has some good photos of this - too funny!).

But, I also wrap a couple strips of Scotchlite around the canister and daub a few spots of highway reflector paint on the top and bottom, so I can find the canister in the dark if need be. Haven't had a problem yet, and I've been using the canisters for close to 15 years.

 
8:53 p.m. on May 10, 2006 (EDT)
FLwoodsman
Junior Member

Joined: May 7, 2006
Posts: 6
Re: Changes in the past few dacades

Good ideas. Thanks!

 
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