Would you bring a gun while you backpack

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continued from http://www.trailspace.com/forums/backcountry/topics/32175.html
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The other thread was closed so I started a new one.

BTW Ive ugraded to a .500 magnum.
http://www.taurususa.com/products/product-details.cfm?model=500MSS2&category=Revolver

Last time I went to Alaska I was with a group that was grizzly hunting. One of the guys there was dead set on bringing down a grizzly with his new Smith and Wesson 500 mag. The group of guys all had licenses to hunt grizzlies. All of them brought large caliber rifles as well but Jim had brought the previously mentioned revolver as well. As it turns out the very first day Jim got his chance. A grizzly showed up just as we were leaving camp for the day, about 1000 yards into our trip. He was huge! I would guess 12 feet claw to claw and one of the biggest I have ever seen while on the ground. Jake and Tom had their rifles trained on the bear while Jim inched up to get a little closer. Finally at about 25 yards Jim fired the 500 mag. And the bear dropped INSTANTLY. So impressed were the other folks that they opted to use Jims 500 mag as well. They had all practice shot with the gun before the trip. Jake and Tom by the end of the trip had both bagged grizzlies (although smaller in size then the first behemoth that Jim dropped). Both of the other bears dropped on the first shot. I was not hunting myself. I don’t like killing things (anything) unless I have to but I was so impressed with this guns performance I bought one the next week while in Oregon. Some of the other people here are right about one thing…you have to be calm while you shoot or you wont hit a damn thing.

I have been a recreational shooter & hunter since boyhood. I have never taken a firearm backpacking. Pack-in hunting, which I have not done, would be interesting. How do you pack out the head & hide of a 12' brown bear?

I would be more likely to carry a small folding rifle than a hand cannon. Probably useless in a bear emergency, but from the survivalist POV, any rifle is much better than a handgun. The discontinued but still available Springfield Armory M-6 Scout is a perfect example of what I'd consider my kind of backpacking gun--if I were to have such a thing. 22LR or 22 Hornet over 410 shotgun. All stainless, folds up nicely and weighs only 36oz.

For country where bear encounters are common and known to be dangerous, I'd consider a handgun. I don't think I'd want a 500 S&W. Too big & heavy. A 44 Mag should be plenty, and I'd consider a 10mm or .41 cal if the weight savings were significant.

We were brought in by helicopter and flown out that way as well. Although to be honest no one thought we would bag any more the two grizzlies. So while we planned for one with the possibility of two we did not plan for 3 at all. Because we ended up with 3 bears 3 of our group had to stay an extra night while the other part of our group and the grizzlies were shuttled to base camp where the trucks were. It turned out to be an all day event.
As for hunting with a 500 magnum…. One person had it in there mind to hunt with it. I certainly would never hunt with a pistol. If I hunt, it is because I need to. I would never take a chance in that situation. A big bore rifle is the only thing I would ever use. .338 or larger against a beast like an old grizzly. Im sure that these guys would never have hunted with the pistol without make damn sure that if they missed the other two had the bear dead in their sights.
However having said this I also want protection. I would like to think that I would always be prepared for a charging bear in a way that I could have a rifle trained on it and know that I could take it down before it turned into close range combat….and I would certainly try this first. If it fails though I want close range back up. Hence the 500 mag. And yes it is heavy as is the ammo.

Wow,
where did you hunt where you guys found three bears on one trip? Must have been Southeast somewhere? I might be interested in giving that a shot if the chances of seeing bears is good. Is it just as possible to do a walk in hunt, or do you really need to get flown in by helicopter? Sounds expensive.
Thanks for any info.

Trailblazer: Alphawolf was in Alaska.

Hello
First time at this site , but I had to register and ask who flew you out in a helicopter ? Im no regulation expert , but the best I can recall the use of a helicopter is Illegal for huntig or fishing in Alaska

49thome- Well you are partly correct. It is illegal to hunt FROM the helicopter. It is not illegal to get to your destination via helicopter and hunt on the ground.

Carrying guns on a backpack trip? Cell phones and gps systems...duh? I certainly live deep in the last century.(But I think I would have the cell phone, just in case. Afterall, at my age who knows.)

I don't really see the need to carry a gun in the backcountry. If you were being charged by a bear odds are you startled it coming around a turn in the trail and you won’t have time to get at much of anything. Even if you did have time are you going to be able to think enough to get at the gun or are you just going to stand there wishing you had an extra pair of shorts. Another likely time to come across a bear is on your way to get your bear bag in the morning but if you leave the bear alone then you should hopefully be fine; as long as you hung your food well enough that the bear can get at it. .
I personally have not had a close call with a bear that I know of. The closest call I have had was coming across a grizzly cub in glacier Natl Park. The cub it self is not so scary but a pissed off mom is. The closest I have gotten to that is a bear in a front-country campsite out side of anchorage eating our soap and lighter fluid (how it picked those two items to eat I don't know). I never saw the bear but others in my group did. I have seen another couple of bears from horse back. But that’s it. But I'm only 17 and have been backpacking for only 4 years. I do Cary bear spray but have never used it, and I’d like to keep it that way.
as far as cell phones go around here they are pretty much useless unless your by the interstate but then I live in Wyoming and cell phone service is probably better in other parts of the country.

On occasion I will bring a pistol when backpacking. Where I live the issue is mountain lions and the two-legged predators. If I am in a national park, or if I am really counting ounces, I will bring pepper spray.

Best answer: depends upon where you backpack and why. If you backpack a gun, it means you are willing to kill something or someone using it. Is that why you backpack? If so, may we never meet on the same trail. My gut feeling about it is (and this is because I would like to keep my guts exactly where they are now located), if you carry a gun, you are no longer a backpacker. You are a hunter.

Interesting discussion thread -

I would not carry a gun (handgun, rifle or shotgun) while backpacking - in general when I go backpacking I'm looking to bring back memories - not pelts and meat.
I can understand why hunters in brown bear territory would go into the woods armed - their behavior needs to be the polar opposite of what "good" behavior in bear country is - they need to be quiet - they often wear game scents - they immitate the call of a weak or wounded animal from time to time - they operate at dawn and twilight - and they tend to do so alone - quiet - and off the trail.
As backpackers our normal, clomping, clanging (if you're an external frame user like me!) tramping along the trail is generally more than enough to warn bears that I'm comin' down the trail.
So no gun - just enough rope to hang my food out of Yogi's reach - see - I don't want Yogi gettin' a bad reputation either!

Gun's only kill when they are in the hands of a untrained person and that's when things can go seriously wrong. I too go backpacking for the same reasons you guys do but I also do not go into bear country unarmed, mace and sidearm check. I would love to shoot a bear with my camera but if one was charging me or attacking one of my mates I would not hesitate to take it down. The last thing I want to do is play dead and hope for the best or watch as a family member or friend get mauled or killed, no thanks. I know the chances of this ever happening are slim but they are there. Jewel Basin is 78% occupied by grizzly and that just happens to be my favorite place to go backpacking, not because of the bears! I have not had a problem yet but its just like playing the lottery, put your self in that spot enough times chances are something will happen. With common sense on what to do in the backcountry and what not to do a bear should have no reason to come check you out, be smart, keep your food up and don't be a slob. The one time I do run into a surly bear I will be ready and the people with me stand a fighting chance. Oh one more thing The S&W 500 with a 4 inch barrel is what I have in a leg holster and I don't have any problems with the weight. This is one of the few guns that will penetrate a Bear's skull cap. Sorry to the hippies out there that are offended by a gun but believe me I'm the last person you have to worry about on the trail. I do not go out in the woods to kill things and that's the last thing on my mind. The sidearm only comes on pack trips were it's needed or legal to carry. My family needs me and one thing I will not give up is packing in the backcountry were bear's are around.

Hippies? Are their really anymore Hippies left in the world? I thought they all became Presidents, CEO's and grandparents.

Thought they all became Presidents, CEO's and grandparents. LOL!

People are going to do what they think they need to do. I just hope we are all safe about what ever it is!

woody stated that "Gun's only kill when they are in the hands of a untrained person and that's when things can go seriously wrong."

Sorry, woody, but there are lots of accidents involving supposedly trained and highly experienced hunters as well as untrained. That comes from the NRA's figures. Like anything else, people get complacent and careless, even highly trained and experienced people. And, sorry to disappoint you, but a large number of hippies in their heyday (and currently aging hippies) pack heat, a large fraction of whom are still engaged in the "agricultural" business.

No, I am not anti-gun. In fact, I am on the range fairly frequently (don't hunt anymore, thanks to too many "trained" people out there who shoot at any movement or sound). Mostly black powder these days, though.

I have carried a gun backpacking on several occasions.

Chichigof Island, Alaska. Shotgun.

Brooks Range, Alaska. Shotgun.

Some locations in Montana. .44 Mag.

Kodiak Island, AK. .44 Mag (idiot!).

I'd probably carry one again for an extended trip into Grizzly country. But, from Montana, and I'm very comfortable around firearms.

The times I have carried a firearm into the backcountry, was more for the folks I was with, so they could sleep at night (!). I'd consider it an honor to be eatin' by a bear.

A great read if you can find it is "The Year Long Day". Arctic bear hunting with a Norwegian feller. When the polar bear breaks into the cabin...

-Brian in SLC

"Jewel Basin"...whoa, just read this.

Did an extended backpacking trip into the Jewel Basin in, must have been, spring/early summer of 1982 or so. Not armed. Saw tracks and scat, but, no bears. Great place!

We did a neat loop trip. Was plenty of snow still.

That area in Montana...hmmmmmm....nice.

Thanks for mentioning it!

-Brian in SLC

Great thread! As I intend to do a solo backpack in the Southern Appalachians I am not so worried about the black bears and other critters as much as the hillbillys that get themselves all liquored up. I don't know about you guys but that scares the hell out of me. I would sleep a lot better with a pistol but as everyone knows, it's a big decision and a lot of reponsibility. Is there anyone that understands the the unpredictability of a drunk redneck(s)? I am usually very rational about the odds of something like that happening (very slim), but nonetheless it is very worrisome to a first time solo hiker going into the "backcountry" (so called, but there is usually a dilapidated trailer within 10 mi in any direction). Any advice is desperately needed.

Effective protection is 12 ga. and pretty heavy. Sometimes I dream of 12.ga pistol that could be light, last-gasp Grizz pro, but dunno if it's practical...To change subject slightly some say a .22 caliber is best for survivalists hunting weapon. Sometimes on short trips I carry a .410 for possible birds and squirrels, but since I'm not hunting per se, there is never any game... which os fortunate since I don't relish cleaning and eating these things, especially in the field.
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As the poster child for the Canadian bush baby, I have a few comments to make and please dont take offence its my opinion.
Growing up in the Great White North in the Rockies I came out of me mom with a bowie knife and a toque see here if you dont know what this is
( http://www.ocanadagear.com/graphics/toque-foldrim-oc-red.jpg )
Wandering the woods on weekends and all summer ( even when they closed the schools at -40 c ) hunting rabbits and such to feed to the wolves that lived up the cut line.
End rambling
In a nut shell I have seen many Bears and Cougars in my wanderings and have never been scared of them as much as amazed by them. I dont ususally carry a gun, unlesss im goin way back country and I know the Bears / Cougars are having a drought in food. In recent years our civilization has encrouched upon these creatures lands and thusly turned their fear into hostility ( see insurgents in iraq )
I can not blame an animal for hurting a person who is in thier territory, as much as i cannot blame a person for hurting someone who breaks into thier home.
So i have a few points that i have learned from reading and living in my past 32 years
1 Guns dont kill people bullets do
2 Any bushman worth his wieght in spit carries at least 2 knives
3 Walk quiet to hunt. Walk noisy to not be hunted ( make noise so that you dont supprise an animal, which is the leading cause of attacks )
4 Carry a Rifle or Shotgun in the back country, if you carry a Handgun shave the sights off it so it doesnt hurt so much when the bear rams it up your a$$
5 Give animals the right of way, you see a Grizzly - look down , talk outloud, back away slowly
6 If Grizzly gives chase dont run. play dead and cover your head
7 always travel with a fat person you dont like, you dont have to outrun the Bear, only the other person
8 Be smart, use your senses ( especially your gut )

Now im off to forfill my Canadian stereotype by eating bacon and drinking beer

I have carried a pistol while backpacking but quit when I set out to lighten my load.

It just seemed plain silly to buty a stove that weighed 3 grams less than my last, yet carry a seventeen ounce pistol.
I try to justify every gram of fluff I carry and viewed under that microscope just couldn't see bringing a gun along any more.

This is certainly an interesting thread and I'm not suprised at the responses. Opinions, no doubt, are crafted from the part of the country you hike in.

I've carried a Ruger 454 plenty of times but I live in interior Alaska. In the Brooks Range I carried it and my partner carried a 12 guage. We were in prime bear territory; two people were killed by bears while we were on our trip. I have no doubts in my mind that carrying a gun was the right thing.

Before I moved up here, I mountain biked and hiked with a 10mm Glock for two reasons. The main reason is protection from humans! I still carry the Glock when I backcountry xc ski because of the motorized terrorists known as snow mobilers.

I've got a long trip coming up. Going to hike from the North side of Lake Kerr all the way to Crystal Lake. That's from the the top of the Ocala National Forest to the South of the Ocala National Forest. It'll be backcountry camping, and there are bears in that area. So I might bring along a carbine for saftey.

you don't need a rifle for camping in Ocala.

Ocala is a real sucky place for camping anyway. It's okay if your idea of a good time is car camping with the good ole boys who like to sit in lawn chairs around a huge fire, beer cooler and spitoon all day long. I think they even conjor up the ghost of #3 at midnight. I guarantee no matter where you are in the Ocala Forest, you will hear these groups hootin' and hoolerin' late at night.

The local rednecks are more hazardous to campers than the small population of bears. Don't dress like a tourist or a bearded student with a bandana on your head. don't be wearing expensive designer camping gear that makes you look like a geek. In those woods its best to be wearing old BDU's and no treking poles.

Marjorie Carr Greenway is a very nice place for backpacking and you won't need to be hauling in artilery. It's frequented by hikers, mountainbikers are equestrians. Each sport has their own trail network. Trail runs from Tampa to Jacksonville.

I recomend starting at the 49th st trail head in Dunnelon. A special use pass is required and easy to get with a phone call to the office of trails and greenways.

A mountaineering guide who spent at least several years in Alaska, largely subsisting off hunting, told me the only thing to use on a charging grizzley is a .12 gauge slug.

I believe he was well informed.

Very late at at night I've hiked along trails and encountered campers who were suprised by me and reacted in an alarmed manner. I worry that some are very drunk, might carry a gun and get in a severe, irrational panic and take a shot at me.

Apart from possibly legitimate worries about grizzlies and polar bears, (NOT cougars) a gun has no practical use in N Amer. backpacking unless you want to hunt, or just have some odd fascination with guns. That's perfectly okay by me, assuming you are fairly rational.

Seward, the concern you had about the drunk folks that might have guns is another reason why I carry one. Carrying a firearm also carries legal obligations and intoxication is in violation of those obligations. I am the same person who conceal-carries every once in a while so doing it while backpacking is not a stretch.

This country affords many people the right to carry a firearm. Not all of them are wise or responsible, though. Add to that, wildlife, and you have a deadly combination, humans being the most dangerous.

I spent 20 years solo backpacking in the jungles and mountains of South and Central America. Outside of a machete and knife I was never armed. It was not necessary as long as you paid attention to your surroundings and understood the behavior of cats and wild pigs. The times that I had troubles with two-legged predators were resolved in the usual way.

Now that I live in the US and plan on backpacking in Wyoming and Montana this summer, I am bringing my .44 Magnum revolver with me. It is undeniable that there are animals out there that if given the chance will kill and devour me. It is also undeniable that bear and cat attacks are rare. Carrying the revolver adds a margin of safety---often the only one you might have. You can play dead, ring bells, use pepper spray---and hope that there is no wind or rain and that it is a clear day---or fight back all you want. You might die nonetheless. The bear experts are clear on this.

A gun will always work.

I love the outdoors. It is dangerous out there. It is meant to be.

There have been a lot of good points tossed back and forth here. I think the point of the discussion though is to talk about bringing a firearm with you while you hike, camp or backpack, not if bringing a firearm while doing the aforementioned makes you a hunter. Just because you take a gun into the woods does not make you a hunter.

I would bring a gun with me if I were going on a backcountry trip where the human traffic is minimal. When a human goes into the wilderness, particularly out west, we are no longer number one on the food chain. We can be preyed upon by the mountain lion and bear, don't kid yourself. A gun would prove to be the only form of protection one would have. You probably would have little chance to protect yourself from a mountain lion, but at least you would have that chance.

kirby....if you carry matches are you no longer a backpacker but an arsenist? A gun is a tool...a piece of safety equipment. If a person chooses to be naive and ignore a real threat then thats their buisness, but naive or not that threat is real.(e.g. a mountain biker drug from his bike and killed by a mountain lion who on the same day in the same spot attempted to kill another...this was in california on a very well traveled trail). I will admit, most wild predators will flee before you ever know they are there because of a natural fear, but because land developement is encroaching on their territory some have lost that fear which protects both them and us.

It's purely ignorant to throw out blanket statements about how "that would never happen" and "your the danger BECAUSE you have a gun". I doubt the little girl that was attacked in yellowstone by a bear that had killed one person trying to save her thought the armed camper that killed the bear and saved her life was the REAL danger.

Granted.. there are ppl who should not be allowed to even look at a firearm and unfortuneately those types always seem to have one. But dont claim anyone who backpacks with means to protect themselves is an idiot who will shoot anything that moves. There are plenty of us heat packin hikers who are very responsible and hopefully when the ignorant preparedness haters are being drug into the bushes by a 200 pound cat(god forbid that happen) one of us might stumble upon this terrifying circumstance and use our forsight to save their life.

Not being anal..just think ppl lie to themselves about how fragile they are in the wild. by the way I carry a springfield XD.45 with 14 bonded core hollow point mind changers IF,, my life need defending.

As far as I’m concerned southwestcolo hit it on the head. Carrying a gun in the backcountry is just another element of preparedness, and as noted by woody_8_5 it’s a lottery for those of us that spend a significant amount of time in bear country. Timothy Tredwell found out the hard way (although he may not be a shining example).

I hike McHugh creek, which is just outside of Anchorage where the bear mauled the joggers in ’85, on a regular basis. If I surprise a bear at close quarters I probably will never have time to react. If I have time to react I probably won’t have time to fire. If I have time to fire I probably won’t hit it. If I hit it the shot probably won’t be fatal. However, I still carry my S&W 500 on the off chance that I do have time to react, fire, hit and kill a charging bear bent on doing me, my wife or my two kids damage because I couldn’t live with myself if I didn’t try.

The bear attack last month down around Sitka was ended when the companion of the victim delivered what wildlife officials described as 3 well placed shots.

The jogger that was mauled two years ago near Homer may have had time to react, but had no gun. In fairness I wouldn’t have expected him to have a gun since he was jogging, but the point is that this is a case where there was an opportunity to react prior to the attack.

There are understandably strong emotions on both sides of this debate. As for me I hope never to be in that position, but I wear a very large caliber revolver every time I wear bear bells.

I would like to purchase a .22 caliber "Steven's Favorite" replica in take-down version. It weighs four and a half pounds, is disassembled with a thumb screw, was designed around 1900 and is among lightest-possible long-guns made. With this, I would consider combining squirrel hunting and fishing with backpacking as experiment in living off the land.

A guide with experience in subsistence cariboo hunting in Alaska told me the only thing he'd want to use against a charging grizzley would be a .12 gauge slug. I've never camped in serious Grizzley country & would want to avoid carrying a gun if possible. Guns might be fun as toys, but their practical uses are extremely limited unless you fear a human attack, in which case you may be just paranoid.

Calamity wrote: "Guns might be fun as toys"

I was brought up around guns, I learned to treat them as weapons in the military, and I was always taught that they were to be treated with the utmost regard and respect, as their mistreatment could end up in the accidental death of or injury to another individual.

I have spent my entire 60 years in serious Grizzly country, we have about the greatest number of bears of any legal jurisdiction here in B.C., roughly 25,000 GBs and 175,000-200,000 BBs, only Alaska is as bear dense. I worked solo in Grizzly country for years and supervised/trained forestry crews there as well, incluind teaching basic bear safety.

I am an extreme gunnut and have a fine collection, however, I seldom carry a gun when backpacking. Too much extra weight and we don't seem to have the whackos on our trails that you do in the U.S., the country is too rugged and remote (thank god!).

Under certain circumstances, I will pack my Browning 1886SRC repro with Ashely ghostring/post sights, loaded with 400 gr. Swift A-frames at 1900 fps. or maybe my Benelli Nova pump loaded with Brenneke slugs, the ONLY shotgun ammo I would trust. I also have a Ruger Redhawk 5.5"in .44 Mag with warmish 300 gr. hardcasts for certain situations.

But, overall, a light freon horn, caution and camp hygiene are all I use in Grizzly country and in 40+ years, this has worked just fine.

Bringing a gun backpacking is to bring a "toy" because it normally has no utility, and therefore can't be a tool.

calamity, you say call a gun "a 'toy' because it normally has no utility, and therefore can't be a tool."

Well, lessee now. I rarely use a 1st aid kit (thankfully), so it must be a "toy". While I always carry a knife (SAK, as most people carry these days), I rarely use it, so it must be a "toy". I always carry 50 ft of accessory cord (just in case I need to replace a tent guyline or break a bootlace), but haven't had that happen in years, so that must just be a "toy". Oh, wait! Sometimes when sitting around waiting for the water to boil or the stew to simmer, I practice tying knots and playing around with "rope tricks", so I guess the cord is indeed a "toy"!

I have to agree with the other posters, especially kootenay, whose decades in the Canadian hills and woods up Arctic way I have great respect for - firearms are NOT "toys". They are serious, with the sole purpose of killing game for food or threatening animals (including human animals) or disabling threatening critters (including human animals) for defense. They should be used in practice to ensure that your aim and rapidity of usage is tuned up ("rapidity" being somewhat relative with the blackpowder long guns I use), and they have a place in historical re-enactments, which Barb and I do. But they are not "toys" and should never be treated or regarded as such. And, by the way, that is the official stance of the NRA.

I would if I was back in Idaho, but since I am in the unconstitutional unamerican state of New York, no way.

I own two shotguns & hold non-resident NY State small game license current to Sept. 31.

I view guns as backpacking "toys" because unlike cord, rope, band-aids, asprin etc., they normally have no utility, potential or otherwise, in woods.

The potential exceptions are Grizzleys in feeding areas, polar bears, and of course, the absurdly unlikely criminal cases. Binoculars almost fall into same category, but have very different properties.

In New Mexico once I encountered a mountain lion once, that was somewhat interested in me as food, and I don't think a firearm would have been usable or useful.

I live next to one of the more dangerous national forest departments in the lower 48 states. The problem is not brown bears, which are now extinct in that range. The main problem is local crime migrating in from nearby Los Angeles. It is enough of an issue that - at one time at least - they had a former LRRP (common name for someone who served in a Long Range Reconnaissance Patrol unit) patrolling the forest, with an emphasis on searching for illegal pot farms that are run by local and regional groups who make a point of defending their plots. At one time the forest averaged 12 crime-related bodies a year found in the area. Anyone tallying an unconscious "danger index" could add the *apparent* increase in local black bear attacks which have possibly been fanned by drought clashing head-on with the previously expanding bear population (among other things).

Not sure if their are still expanding.

Although the forest is less safe now than when I first started hiking there as a teenager, I do not carry a gun. But then again, I've never had to worry about anyone but myself, which is someone I'm willing to accept some degree of risk for in exchange for a lighter pack load. :)

My wife on the other hand, I am not quite so willing to accept the risk for. She is not from the US and does not come from a place that has a reasonable point of comparison for this sort of thing. So she is trusting me to a substantial degree. Because of this, I sympathize with anyone who notes that they are not willing to accept the possibility of watching a loved one be mauled, with naught but a beautifully crafted carbon trekking pole to say "shoo bear shoo." I once heard in discussion the strikingly obvious observation that most bear attack victims probably experienced their first attack ever. So to say "I've never had any problems..." doesn't always carry as much weight as one might think, because most future bear attack victims can probably say the same thing and be 100% right... at the time.

I do however, always keep in mind a girl who used to work at a local outdoor equipment store. She was the survivor of a bear mauling and was heavily scarred from throat to waist. So considering that brown bears do attack (IE - Alaska-Canada-Montana), and that the number of black bear attacks is apparently under-reported - at least in the Transverse Range - I again would not blame anyone for wanting to carry a gun while backpacking. It is obvious that knives and guns are *both* a part of many, many backpacker's lists of equipment even though they are not hunters, paranoids or pot growers (no insult to hunters meant).

Just for the record, if I'm ever being mauled by a bear and I hear someone with a gun yell out that they are afraid of hitting me, make sure to listen carefully to my screams of "Shoot it, Shoot it!" I'm definitely willing to take the risk that I might be hit.

Jim B.

A very well written and reasonable post, I concur as firearms ARE a backpacking "tool" at certain times here in Canada, at least in B.C., the Y.T., N.W.T. and northern AB. I feel that respectful discussion of this, as with bearspray, freon horns, bearbells and various methods of detering dangerous animals IS both appropriate and, hopefully, useful to many posters.

Generally, most backpackers here do not carry and do prefer bearspray, which I consider a waste of money and this has to do with various factors, Canadian gun laws (draconian) and cultural aspects of Canadian life.

I think that this is an individual decision, much the same as the synthetic/down sleeping bag issue and how large a pack you prefer. I won't hesitate to carry IF I think that there is ANY danger to myself and that is, IMO, a reasonable basis to make that decision on.

Please keep this thread on-topic and civil. Personal insults and attempts to hijack the thread will be deleted. Repeat offenders may be banned. Meta-discussion (e.g. "is it an appropriate topic?") belongs in the feedback forum.

Thanks
-Dave

None other than Ray Jardine carried a 12-gauge (6.5 lbs as modified) on a canoe trek from G. Slave Lake to Arctic Ocean in recent years. Whether to carry a gun would vary for him mainly according to bear habitat.

I'm not really sure if this is off topic, but I note few or no people in the alpine huts in north and central Selkirks in BC would take guns (though they do like their huts up there). Yet Griz. do certainly tear people up even over in Bow Valley sometimes.

Stats suggest that in British Columbia, black bears cause many more human injuries than Grizzlies because of a much, much higher rate of human encounters. But this doesn't make a gun particularly useful against black bears. Cougars tend to attack suddenly from short range, and guns are unlikely to deter this extremely small hazard, while blasting a cougar off your girlfriend's face seems touchy.

My favorite .22 caliber survival gun is 4.5 lb "Stevens Favorite" obviously almost useless for defense.

The huts that you refer to are largely in National and Provincial Parks and there are VERY few of them. Firearms use in Canadian National Parks is not allowed, even the Canada Parks Wardens are not armed, so, this is one reason why we have many lethal bear encounters in our parks; this is from actually working at the eastern border of Jasper National Park for the Alberta Forest Service and being seconded to Alberta Parks to give seminars on various aspects of wilderness, including bear safety, to tourists.

VERY FEW hikers here in B.C. stay in huts of any type as most of the old cabins were deliberately burned by the Forest Service/R.C.M.P. years ago to discourage taxfree squatting and growing Marijuana; again, I was there as an employee of the B.C.F.S. The huts that are now used are almost entirely alpine skiing basecamps and are used primarliy during the winter when bears at high elevations are denning, so, this is not really a relevant issue.

I would be very cautious about refering to ...studies... concerning bear issues here in B.C. MOST bear encounters, especially Black Bears are never reported for many valid reasons and a gun IS VERY useful in dealing with problem Black Bears as is done here every day in most months of the year, again, this is longterm, personal, professional experience as I live here and always have.

Cougar problems have been increasing and a gun IS extremely effective in dealing with aggressive Cougars, who, even as juveniles, are large and strong enough to quickly kill or maim an asult human. The comment about ...blasting one off... is about SKILL, not about whether a gun is useful in an attack by a Cougar and these happen here in urban areas as well as remote rural ones.

Your choice for a ...survival gun... is, in B.C. terms, about as useless as I can imagine. It is VERY difficult to kill edible big game with this, edible small game is not commonplace here and we do not have poisonous snakes to worry about. A light .308 Win, carbine is a FAR superior choice for this type of use here and even a 12 Ga. slug gun is better.

Have you ever been in the Selkirks, or, any part of B.C.? Have you ever seen a Grizzly or a Cougar and/or shot ANY bear or edible wildlife? Your comments seem to me to be largely supposition and they do not reflect the reality that I have seen here.

As to Alberta/Bow Valley, there are relatively few Grizzlies in Alberta, yet, as you state, attacks causing human deaths/injury DO take place. I favour an approach to this entire topic that is based on doing whhat is practical where a given hiker actually goes and packing a gun IF there is genuine danger that may be eliminated by doing so. Colleagues of mine WERE mauled and after talking to one survivor in person and others by phone, I base carry decisions on my accessment of risk, not on any studies or pro/anti-gun bias.

MANY people I know here have had aggressive encounters with Grizzlies and never report this to "the authorities", so, I would be circumspect concerning "studies" and I know many of the bear bios who write these. Do what your common sense tells you to do, as in other aspects of backpacking and you will be better off, IMHO.

There are at least 27 backcountry huts operated by the Alpine Club of Canada mostly in the Rockies and lower BC. In summer, I've stayed in two, in Bubaboo Provincial Pk and in Adamants of N. Selkirks, which I don't think is a park. The Canadian & perhaps provincial Govt also maintains some number of backcountry huts, but I know almost nothing of this. You are correct that alpine areas aren't particularly good bear habitat. I've cooked and eaten small game twice in eastern US I was stalked once by a cougar in New Mexico. Here in New Jersey, like in Canada, we have quite a black bear problem. Last year there was a bear in Newark !!!

I used to be a member of the AAC, they DO operate some climbing/skiing basecamp huts as I posted, but, given the size of the region under discussion, the number of huts is not very large.

There ARE a very few huts in parks, however, this is, again, something that many of us discourage as it leads to over-use of fragile sub-alpine areas and consequent ecological damage.

Alpine areas, espedcially wet meadows ARE excellent bear habitat, in fact, second only to fish-bearing streams during spawning season where Grizzlies are concerned. My former occupation involved extensive solo sojourns in these areas throughout BC and Alberta and many of my bear encounters happened there.

I am familiar with "the Bugs", I was born and raised near there and worked there for the Forest Service nearly 40 years ago. Again, I would be VERY circumspect concerning forming opinions on bear issues here from "studies" as much of the available material is questionable.

Anyway, we digress a bit and I have posted everything I consider worthwhile on this topic. If, in ANY doubt about my safety, or that of companions, I WILL carry, no question, and each person has to decie this for themselves. That said, a gun weighs a lot and so I don't bother on most hikes, works for me.

Thread Drift: BC Columbia River Valley is a very sweet country, though bearish, and nowadays lots of tree disease & probably too much logging. I may have seen wolf in valley near Bugs, though uncertain glimpse of bushy horizontal tale. Below the Adamants, we raced yearling black bear on logging road. All the icecaps were especially nice, but so is that long stretch of Columbia River, except for where it's damed. That giant elbow lake where they log with submarines isn't particularly attractive.