Anybody use Ebay for equipment?

Just wondering if anyone uses Ebay for equipment that does not require fitting?

I've been watching some things, and it appears that most of the items go for nearly MSRP. Does it get better in the colder seasons as far as pricing? Less demand?

I also wonder if there is a difference in quality of things like backpacks sold at non-specialized stores. For instance, I've been told that there is a difference in tires for automobiles sold at KMart/WalMart than those same tires sold at tire only stores. Does this exist for hiking equipment?

Sort of off-topic, I realize, but I notice Dick's has some very good sale prices on things, and just wondered about the quality I would be getting.

Thanks, as always -

Steve

Steve -

If you buy from Ebay, be sure you get some kind of assurance that the seller is legit. I know of too many people who have gotten stung, especially with used gear. "Like new" too often comes looking like it was used in the trenches of WWI. Remember that Ebay and the other auction and "fleamarket" sites are only listing sites. They have no responsibility for what is posted (although Ebay and some of the others try to screen the worst offenders). If it is a shop (as many of the Ebay sellers are), you can do some checking by looking on a site called resellerrating.com and searching for the dealer name. The top score is 10. For example, a photo equipment internet camera shop I deal with is currently rated 9.56. I have dealt with them for something like 40 years and found them very good, so the correlation is pretty good. I won't deal with someone who is rated below 7 or 8.

If the item is safety critical (stoves, climbing gear, water filters), be really sure it is genuinely brand new, with a return guarantee.

The old saying "Caveat Emptor" really applies to internet auction sites. You can find super bargains, though. Someone may have made the mistake I make too often as a gearhead - the widget looked really great and I HAD to have it. Then on receiving it, I realize it isn't what I wanted (wrong color, wrong size, the trip for the 1-time use got cancelled, whatever). So I sell it to retrieve part of my expenses, and maybe someone else can really use it.

Ask why the person is selling it, and probe a bit.

Steve, I have bought and sold a number of items on eBay. I have bought a backpack, compass, two stoves, tent, down parka and a few other things I can't recall offhand. I've also sold a few things so I've been on both sides of the transaction. I have sold two packs, a pair of snowshoes (to a guy in Norway of all places) and some other things on eBay.

The only time I was unhappy was with a pair of ski boots that had a flaw that the seller did not disclose. Long story, but he took them back and I got my refund.

The keys to successful eBay shopping are:
1.know what you are looking at;
2.know its retail and discounted value (what you see it selling for in online stores);
3.watch a lot of auctions before bidding and see how they work;
4.don't get caught up in an auction and pay too much-watch a few auctions for the same or similar item you want so you can see what it might sell for;
5.unless you are after a collectible, and sometimes even then, be patient-the same thing may show up again sooner or later.
I see things going for close to retail all the time. Don't be tempted. REI, Campmor and other dealers have sales all the time. Some online dealers have great prices on last year's gear that are for new items with warranties.

Examples from eBay:

I bought my parka for a little over half of retail and it looked like new when I unpacked it. If I remember right, I was the only bidder for it and got it for the opening price. This of course won't happen often. I met a couple of skiers at Yosemite who each had a pair of brand new skis they'd gotten on eBay for literally almost nothing except shipping costs because no one else wanted them and there was no reserve price on them.

I have also bought and sold gear on another site I belong to. Members tend to be honest with each other, otherwise they risk being "outed" and booted off the forum.

I've also bought gear online from several retailers and been happy as well. gear prices are seasonal. Winter gear goes fairly cheaply at the end of the season.

"I also wonder if there is a difference in quality of things like backpacks sold at non-specialized stores."
The short answer is, "It depends." It depends on what you mean by a "non-specialized store." REI is in a sense a non-specialized store since they sell everything from bikes to kayaks to climbing gear and all kinds of clothes, but I think you mean more like Dick's (which we don't have out here in LA)or Big 5, Target, Sportmart or maybe even Wal-Mart or Sears.
Much of the gear sold in these stores (not counting REI) is mass-produced and of generally lower quality than gear sold in specialty stores. That doesn't mean it won't work for your purposes, but that it may not last as long as better gear. REI has a wide range of gear for everyone from the casual hiker to the more serious backpacker. Specialty stores sell high end gear because the can't compete with Wal-Mart at the low end. The average Wal-Mart shopper is not their target market.

Generally, you won't find high quality sleeping bags, backpacking tents, or packs in mass market stores. They cost too much for the average shopper who doesn't want to spend $200 for a pack or bag or even a tent.

Remember, you don't need every piece of high end gear for the average trip. Some people think you do; I think that's bunk. It is easy to get discouraged when you look at all the choices and the prices. I'm slowly moving towards lighter gear simply because I'm getting too old to carry the heavy stuff.
For online gear shopping or "window shopping," www.backcountrygear.com is a great place to start-they have a wide selection of gear and it is well organized so you can compare specs and prices very easily.

Thanks again for the wisdom.

As far as getting locked into a bidding war, I usually bail out too early as opposed to too late. All the other suggestions for EBay you have given are ones I try to follow anyway. I still get that "what am I really getting?" feeling anytime I win something or bid a non-trivial price for something until I receive it. So far, I have had good luck.

My main question about differing quality was based on the fact that I see a lot of what "looks" like Kelty-brand low end packs dumped on Ebay (mostly school backpacks that can be bought at WalMart/Kmart). I also see what I thought was higher-end Kelty packs. Obviously, I'm looking for a particular Kelty pack. So either Kelty is a manufacturer of differing quality packs for different uses, or they make two versions of the same pack. I believe some manufacturers don't do this and either make high quality or "consumer" quality equipment. I could be wrong. Maybe Kelty is just a mid-quality manufacturer, but reviews and such gave me the impression that their Red Cloud series was pretty good.

I've tried to word this very carefully this time, as I don't think I did the first time. I don't see any upper end Kelty packs at these stores, so I'm not sure if there is a two-version set of rules.

I have been told, thought, that there is a difference in, say, a Goodyear Eagle model tire sold at Kmart and the very same one sold at Goodyear tire store. This is how the price difference can be so large. This could be a sales pitch to get me to go to the Goodyear store and pay more.

Anyway, I'm going to start walking the hills around here soon, with or without pack, just to start conditioning myself. I've got a Kelty Arrowhead daypack arriving tomorrow, so I'll be able to judge it's quality for what I believe to be above the "school backpack" category. It will be my first piece of equipment - so I'm on my way.

Thanks for the input

Steve

Steve,
What Tom & Bill said… When using E-Bay, know what the item costs new at the store like Tom said. I set a policy of paying no more than 50% of the new value (or thereabouts) figuring if I’m going to pay more than that I’ll buy full price without hassle (risk) at a store/source where I know the warranty and service will be no risk. You can set your own limit based on how you perceive the risk and value of service & warranty.

I think if you see a particular name brand stove at Dicks (or any other store) that has the same model number as one you see at other specialty stores it’s probably of the same quality. What I have seen is similar models with different model numbers made by a manufacturer but one is made in china and the other US. My belief is that if the brand & model name are the same, then they are the same. I don’t think that different qualities are manufactured for discount stores; the savings coming from negotiated volume buying and I think the same goes for hiking/climbing. If the item has no brand name on it but looks like one from a brand name, you’re on your own. My assumption is that it’s low quality copy that won’t hold up like the name brand.

Cheers
ag

Steve,

I don't believe that items like tires are any different between the Sears/Penney/etc stores and the tire brand stores for the same label on the tire. Two reasons why I believe they are the same - first is that you can go to any shop that carries the tires for warranty service. So at the least, the manufacturer warranties on wear, etc, are identical. Second is that Consumer Reports, among others, does comparison shopping and would long ago have commented if there were differences.

Now what the source of the comments might be is this - the major tire manufacturers make private label tires that are sold through various outlets. Michelin used to make tires for Sears with an Allstate label. Big O has tires made by Bridgestone (which also makes Firestone these days), General, BFGoodrich, and others, but with a Big O label. The Big O specs are different from the manufacturers' own brands. Also, the majors have different lines of tires.

This is off the backcountry topic, but you used the analogy for backcountry gear. One thing you may find is that some shops sell seconds. Northern Mountain sells a lot of seconds from the major outdoor manufacturers. Most are just cosmetic seconds, but some are indeed seconds for a significant reason (Northern will tell you what the problem is). Most of the time, the problem does not affect the usability of the product. Sierra Trading Post sells overstocks, discontinued, and seconds. All at deep discounts to the MSRP. They note what the problems are with the seconds. Discontinued may just be last season's color (at the OR Show, I have had a couple of the sock manufacturers talk on at length about the wonderful new colors of the same old line of socks - does it matter in the backcountry whether the socks are dark grey or light grey? Or whether this year they call the shade of grey "fog"?.

Anyway, it comes down to the same thing we have all suggested - know what you are bidding on, and know what the new, full retail price is.

Steve, Kelty makes everything from their $750 (not a typo) Cloud modular spectra pack to inexpensive book bags. I've only ever seen one Cloud-a member here that I know has one. The Cloud is the most expensive pack I have ever heard of, so Kelty is more than just a mid-range pack maker. I can't imagine they sell more than a handful of the spectra packs. Their website lists all the packs they make.

As far as goods in discount stores go,as Adam and Bill said, the same item may vary in retail price, but manufacturers can't mislabel an inferior product and sell it under the same name as a first-line product. There are laws (and of course lawyers) to prevent that from happening.

One thing about eBay is that you may encounter counterfeit items. Supposedly, there are a lot of North Face counterfeits on eBay, such as parkas, etc. I've seen a few suspicious items for sale that are nowhere to be found on the manufacturer's website. Could be fakes, could be old stock,who knows. I also read somewhere that Katmandu, Nepal is full of copies of climbing gear, packs,bags, etc. made in China with brand name labels on them, just like with jeans and purses here. On eBay, manufacturers can cancel auctions if the think the item is a fake, but that involves the makers policing the auctions regularly. If there is money to be made, people will make counterfeits of everything you can imagine including music CD's, software, designer clothes, prescription drugs, sports gear and aircraft parts.

As far as reviews go, this site has many reviews and articles that should be helpful to you. Another site, www.backpackgeartest.org is just gear reviews by experienced backpackers. I know someone who has reviewed a few products for them-worth a look. There are many other sites that review gear as well.

Thanks all again.

Quick comments:

I use the same 50% policy. And only then when shipping is reasonable. I research everything before I decide to buy anything. So much so that the electronic pages get lop-earred.

Good to hear about quality/seconds issue. I think I mentioned that the tire statements were from a full-price manufacturer's salesman, and could have just been a leader to get me to shop there. It's also great because there aren't many hiking shops nearby, and Dicks is one of the few that is. If I'm patient, they usually get around to putting what I want on sale. Just a matter of having the money at the right time. It was just used as an analogy for explanation purpose, albeit a real experience. Didn't mean to go OT.

The Kelty issue is still confusing to me. I think I read where they were bought out a while back(?). Their lower-end packs seem to show up more than their better packs, and I was just wondering if this was an indicator of the quality of their better packs. Some of the higher recommended makers don't ever make the low end packs.

One of the things that I think alot about is:
There must be gazillions of hikers out there. It is a really popular sport based on the indicators I am getting. It's funny that I never meet any around here, though. It would be great to team up with some to get the experience with different equipment, and find out what really works and what I like. But since I don't run into any of these folk, I have decided to read, go slow, and learn myself.

And that worries me a little bit. This equipment thing can really get crazy. Originally, as an example, I was set on finding a Dragonfly stove, but after reviewing, and reading probably too much, I am now also considering a Coleman Xtreme. Everybody makes their equipment sound golden. And most reviews are tainted with "I really don't want to admit I bought it and don't like it". I consider the negative reviews worth so much more than the positives for this reason.

Be patient with my stupid, silly questions, and keep guiding me as you all seem to do. Maybe I'll meet one of you on a trail one day to thank you personally.

Steve

Steve said -
"...Be patient with my stupid, silly questions, ..."

Steve, the only dumb question is the one that is not asked. There are a lot of benefits in asking questions, including elementary ones. First, there are a lot of others out there with the same question, just not brave enough to ask it. Well, ok, sometimes a question has been asked a dozen times in the past week and some people don't take the time to scan the website to find it. But this has not been the case with your questions.

Second, sometimes an "elementary" question gets some of us who have been wandering the woods and hills for a half century to stop and think "why the %@&$# have I been doing that all these years?" Then some sort of justification or rationalization or excuse comes out, and sometimes we have an epiphany and realize that there is a better alternative.

Third, sometimes we "experts" and "gurus" wake up to the fact that our "explanations" are more confusing than enlightening and try to mumble our way to a clarification. Know what? Even the world's greatest "experts" and "gurus" have a lot to learn, and stimulating us, er, ummm, them to think is a good thing.

Fourth, the questions stir up lots of overly long replies, that use lots of bandwidths, benefitting your internet provider, inspiring purchases of newer and faster computers, and generally stimulating the economy.

Now, what was your question?

Oh yeah. You mention Kelty specifically, but the question more generally is "who owns whom this week?" There has been a lot (meaning an incredible amount) of purchases, mergers, spinoffs, sales, and so on of outdoor companies over the past decade, more than in the preceding 20 years.

... lots of extraneous ramblings edited out, when I looked at how long the reply had gotten ...

So it is hard (maybe impossible) to keep track of all the corporate intricasies. Thankfully, all we need to do is look at the gear and not worry about who the ultimate owner is. Hey, guess what? My pension fund just happens to hold stock in a lot of these companies. So maybe I get a penny of my pension from every thousand tents sold by North Face!

I do tend to ramble on, don't I?

Thanks for the comments.

Short and sweet.

Steve

You're welcome, Steve. Keep asking, it's fun helping.

Notice that it took Tom & Bill 2 separate postings and at least twice the volume each to agree with me (at least on this thread). :) :0)

cheers
ag

Oh ... I thought adam was agreeing with Tom and me ;>D

Steve,About Kelty-from various websites: Dick Kelty started the company in the early 50's and sold the company in 1972 to CML who owned it for 6 years. It is now owned by American Recreational Products, a subsidiary of Kellwood, which is a large manufacturer of women's apparel. Not sure when ARP bought Kelty or if ARP bought it from CML. The ARP division also owns Sierra Designs Slumberjack and Wenzel.

Kelty sells less expensive packs because that is where the market is. Who buys a $750 pack? Hardly anyone. Like I said, I've seen one and I also saw one on eBay a while back. I've seen people walk into REI and spend $300 for a pack, but $750? No way. I bet they sell a thousand mid-priced packs for every Cloud they sell.

"Some of the higher recommended makers don't ever make the low end packs." True-they have a different business model and are most likely smaller or small divisions of a larger company. The market for low end packs is crowded so only bigger companies can really compete based on economy of scale-make more, sell more, make for less, sell for less, make up in volume. Not all companies can or want to do that. Some can do both.

Okay, stoves-probably the most talked about piece of gear except for water filters--

"I was set on finding a Dragonfly stove,..." Why?
Do you really need a stove that costs $120 and will burn jet fuel? Neither do I. See below.

Look, if you want a liquid fuel stove, get a Whisperlite or something like that. Going overseas? Get the Internationale, which will burn jet fuel, kerosene, etc.

"...but after reviewing, and reading probably too much, I am now also considering a Coleman Xtreme." These work well in winter in my very limited experience, but the canisters can be hard to find. I'm in LA so that isn't a problem. Buying canisters in a small town could be. I'd never leave the country with one.

For a new camper, I'd recommend a canister stove-a friend of mine took a Camping Gaz 270 to Yosemite and loved it-$25. Smaller ones are more. Canisters may cost a bit more to operate and you have to carry out the empties, but they are pretty foolproof, simmer for gourmet cooks and canisters are available almost anywhere. Not so great in really cold weather-I'd get a liquid stove or an Xtreme for winter.

BTW, I have two stoves that will burn jet fuel, and other stuff. I used one in New Zealand years ago, but have no sensible explanation as to why I now have two. I have some other stoves as well, including a new unused Xtreme and a tiny Primus Micron that makes a great stove for dayhiking-I have it in a small pot to make tea or soup for lunch on a cold day.

Ultralight hikers make stoves out of soda or tuna fish cans-total cost-almost nothing but the time to make them. These stoves burn alcohol. DIY designs are all over the net.

Finding fellow hikers-try your local Sierra Club chapter for leads-they often organize trips and classes. Depending on where you are. www.sierraclub.org

I've bought and sold hundreds of items on ebay and find that it works great. If you are new, start with something small, dollar wise. Buy a few small items and get a feel for the process. Know what you are buying. Have fun, ebay auctions can be great entertainment.

I strongly recommend craigslist.org if you are near a medium/large city. Great bargains and I've found people are helpful.

I have bought many items off ebay, and although have heard stories about peopel getting ripped off, I never have. I bought my sleeping bag off ebay, and most recently bought a Sierra Designs Electron Tent for about 150$. This isn't that big of a bargin compared to stores, but I'll take 30-50 dollars off anyday. Oh, I should probably mention I usually only buy items that are new/not used. If it says NIB that means new in box. See ya later.

I bought socks once on eBay and got a heckuva deal. They were the Fox River Boot & Field socks, normally about $15 a pair. Got 4 pairs for $12 plus shipping. Brand new in the sealed package. But, the seller was slow to ship and was a real pain to deal with. Sometimes the bargain is not worth the trouble. In this case, it saved me $$$, so I thought the tradeoff was worth it.

I have gotten some great deals on ebay. I research what I want then look to ebay to see if I can get it for a deal. If you dont know what you want and its price range you might get taken. I have seen a few used things I started bidding at a low price go for more than the full new price from another internet website outlet. And alot of times they ship free! So know your prices prior to ebaying.

Ketly makes good stuff. I have used thier packs ( as a kid) since they opened up thier first store in Glendale, Ca. I currently use a Kelty Pacific Coast pack as my favorite. They only made them for a season or so but sometimes you can locate on online/or ebay. I have a few smaller Gregory and Kelty packs and an Arc Teryx Bora 80. While I like them all I like the Pacific Coast the best for load carrying (sorry Arc Teryx!). As others I am sure will tell you,packs fit different people in different ways and personal preferences also will add to the choice. It is best to look and try on packs to decide what you like. Simply doing online research will not make you fit and like the pack. The Bora 80 is a well liked pack and after research, trying one on, and liking it I purchased one. I must admit it is an awesome pack and hard to leave it behind, but for 60+ lbs, I must choose my Kelty. But that is based on externals being known for bigger loads. A friend of mine borrowed my Bora and said he prefered his Lowe Alpine after. I do not like the Lowes at all. Again they dont fit me,but must fit him better. As far as packs....some are obvious no nos, and the large selection of the rest are personal fit/preference.