Coldest temperature you've ever camped in?

I don't know how you guys do it. Obviously, the right gear is critical, but even with that....is it fun? 20, 30 below? I guess I'm just having a tough time wrapping my brain around the idea of even going out in those conditions.

I'm used to camping in the high deserts in Southern Calif, along with the Panamint Mountain Range bordering Death Valley ( years ago that is), and I think the coldest I've ever been out overnight was about 25 degrees. I thought that was pretty cold, but that's balmy weather compared to what most of you here have experienced.

Anyway, I'm sure some of you here routinely go out in the dead of winter, and negative 20 and 30 are no big deal. Anyone actually gone out in temps even lower?

Bill, how cold does it get up on Denali?

coldest that I read off the thermometer was -42 on Denali at the 17,000 foot camp. Most of the 6 days there on that trip, it ranged between -25F or so in the "hottest" part of the day and -35 to -40 in the coldest part (no real "sunset" at that time of year, namely May-June timeframe). I don't remember any of the other stays at the 14,000 or 17,000 trips getting below -25 or -30. The maximum wind I measured (Kestrel 4000) during that time was about 50 knots (hiding behind the windwall and holding the Kestrel up above it - it's too hard to stand at that windspeed). By the way, unless they actually have a measurement, don't believe anyone who claims to have walked around in "hundred mile an hour" winds - you literally cannot stand up in that. There is a famous picture of Ray Genet flying like a kite at the end of his climbing rope at what were reported as 90 mph winds, with his two partners lying flat on the ground anchoring themselves. Supposedly "The Pirate" tried to stand up and got lifted off the ground. One of the partners was in the process of taking a photo and just happened to catch him in the air.

Coldest I have been in at "low" altitude was on a backcountry ski tour in the western side of the Tetons. We didn't get an accurate measure, but the little pull-tab thermometer was reading -38F at dawn.

In the Sierra (my "local" hills), the lowest temperatures on backcountry tours have been in the -20 to -30 range, but that hasn't been more than once or twice a season. Usually, it is more like +10 to +20 during the coldest part of the winter.

I think Brian has a lot more cold weather experience than I do. After all, he grew up in Montana, where they get far subzero for weeks at a time.

Ed asked "Bill, how cold does it get up on Denali?"

There is a book about the first successful winter ascent of Denali titled "Minus 148", by Art Davidson. Great book to read. The title refers to the lowest number on their wind chill chart. I don't remember the air temperature they used, but I think the wind speed was 100 or 120 knots (or maybe mph?). Lowest I saw on my Kestrel 4000 was -42 (don't remember whether it was F or C, but -40 is the same for both). Most of the time it was warmer than that when we were above 14,000, and on my summit day, it was actually above 0F - warm, sunny, calm, perfect bluebird day, as you can see in the photo at the top of my website.

So what are your experiences in gear successes and failures at those low temperatures?

The lowest I have seen personally is about -20 F, and I wasn't camping at the time, I was just playing in the snow. Lowest actual camping temp was probably about zero F, but that has been many years. My stomping grounds now are the Smokies, and it does not get all that cold here. On our "spring break" backpack trip in March this year with my scouts we had 3 days of snow, temp was down to about 20 F. Gotta love the Smokies in March.

The Coldest I have ever gone was -30F, and i still had fun, though carried about twice as much gear and still had to backpack the whole thing i loved it.

Once I made a snow shelter in my parents back yard and slept in it. It was early January in Prince George, BC and it used to get really cold. That night it got down to -45 Celsius (-49 Fahrenheit). It just so happened it was the coldest night of the year.

If I ever sleep in one again, I will know how to build it better! My mom came out in the morning to check and see if I was still alive. I slept alright, except for waking up every half hour or so. I guess I had to check and see if I was still alive too. ;)

Sadly, those nights are pretty rare now, due to global warming. This has contributed to the epidemic spread of the mountain pine beetle in B.C., which as wiped out millions of acres of forest.

When I was in high school we had an environmental education course where we learned to handle firearms, survival, identifying wildlife, etc. The best part of the class was when we all went on a campout for a couple of days and had to sleep in the shelters we made. No tents. Plastic sheeting was allowed though.

Chumango asked "So what are your experiences in gear successes and failures at those low temperatures?"

I haven't had any big failures at those temperatures, mainly because I had good mentors and had done a lot of reading ahead of time. But there have been a few minor problems.

First time I tried using a Camelbak in subzero temperatures, I had some problems keeping the hose from freezing. Then I learned a few little tricks and have had no problems since.

It took a bit of experimentation with compressed gas canisters to get them to work dependably at subzero temperatures. They still prove a bit finicky, but they can be made to work. However, liquid fuels are better subzero.

There are some liquid fuel stoves I have seen others struggle with, esp in the winter camping courses I teach and used to direct. Basically stoves with the "plate" burners (Coleman Peak 1 like their International, Whisperlite) tend to work poorly subzero. Personally I haven't had problems with the Whisperlite subzero, but that's where "roarer" burner stoves work far better - XGK, Primus MFS and Omni, etc.

Punctured Thermarests are really hard to patch subzero. One of the guys on one of my Denali expeditions had a leak that proved extremely hard to find (you can't dunk it in a tub of water to see the bubbles). We did eventually find the leak and patch it.

On one of my ice climbing trips to NH, I discovered I had only one Nalgene with a cozy and had to buy a second one at the EMS in N. Conway. They only had a stretchy neoprene thin cover that let ice crystals develop in the bottle in just a couple hours at about 10F. Luckily the bottle with the OR cozy stayed liquid, so no serious problem.

We had a Posh tent fail at both front and rear zippers. But that was due to the winds, rather than the cold.

Since my hands and feet tend to stay warmer than most people, I tend to get wet socks if I don't use VBL. And even then, the inner wicking liner gets wet. It's a pain to dry them in subzero conditions.

But, fingerless gloves with the mitten flap really don't work well (they look like a mitten, but you can flip the finger cover flap back to have a fingerless glove - ok at near-freezing, terrible subzero)

Actually, temperatures from +20F to freezing are more of a problem, since the snow and ice are slushy to melting. Then the wet is the serious problem.

Successes - many.

Feathere Friends sleeping bags and overpants are great! Marmot 8000 meter parkas are fantastic! Marmot Alpinist bibs (no longer made - booooo!) and parkas are excellent! (North Face Kichatna parka is ok, but the Marmot Alpinist is much better). The new eVent jackets (Integral Designs, Montane) and eVent bibs (Wild Things) are really excellent, better than Goretex.

Snow caves, quinzhees, and igloos are much warmer and quieter than tents, although work to build. At -20F and lower, the snow/ice gets much harder and digging a shelter is a lot more work. It's easier to pitch a good tent and build windwalls. But in high wind conditions, you really need the snow cave, minimum being a bolt hole.

This could go on for a whole book. enough for now.

It was -35 the night I left Illinois (2/5/78). Back in the 70's I winter camped in Wisconsin and even in the Duluth OB program. I haven't done a lot with cold weather since (been up on Taqhitz in the cold). My feeling about cold is that it's not camping but survival after you get down to 10 ABOVE or even 20 ABOVE depending on gear and conditions. When I was an Illinois Trooper we found people frozen solid in their cars after a blizzard. Cold is a very dangerous adversary. Do not take it lightly. Experience is the best teacher, so go to lower temperatures ONLY after you get some experience. Learn about hypothermia and learn survival skills before you get isolated out in the cold

Paul opined that "My feeling about cold is that it's not camping but survival after you get down to 10 ABOVE or even 20 ABOVE depending on gear and conditions. "

Well, I have to disagree strongly with you there. If you are not prepared or experienced, it can be survival at 40, 50, 60, or any temperature. I have, thankfully, only had to participate in one body recovery, and that was of a 250 pound lineman who, along with his buddies on the team and some cute cheerleaders, had gone hiking with a case of beer on a 40 deg, drizzly day, attired in T-shirts and shorts (all cotton). Hypothermia just waiting to happen, but "real macho men" can take it.

If you are equipped and know what you are doing, -40 is plenty comfortable. I and many others do it fairly frequently, and no, we are not heroes, super macho, or anything of the sort.

As for the folks you found frozen in their cars, I have to ask - what condition were their cars in (properly maintained for cold conditions? coolant matched to those temperatures?)? Did they have proper clothing for being outside in those temperatures, or were they depending on their car heaters and the car working properly? Were they experienced in driving in those conditions, with a car properly equipped for those conditions (proper tires, studs, chains, 4WD)? Did they take account of having to drive through the potential snow drifts?

As a Trooper, I presume you had been trained for such conditions, and that you were equipped and clothed appropriately (else, you wouldn't have been out, or the department was negligent in equipping and training you). If you, as a public servant, charged with protecting and assisting the public were just surviving, then I would ask serious questions of your agency and the legislature. Clearly, you could not do your sworn duty if you were barely surviving yourself.

Daily life is dangerous, whether it is due to cold, tornadoes, or our local hazards, earthquakes and wildfires (I drove through a wildfire on the way back from New Mexico yesterday - not a problem, since the CHP directed us through ... well, except for the lookyloos who paid more attention to the fires than their driving). If you are trained, experienced, and equipped, the danger is reduced. It is impossible to avoid all risk - just being born guarantees that you will eventually die. You have to educate yourself to what the risks are, make your choices, and prepare accordingly.

As a (former?) Trooper, Paul, you more than anyone else here are aware that just driving or riding in a car on the streets and highways is one of, if not THE, highest risk in our everyday lives. I have lost more fellow climbers and backpackers in car accidents on the way to and from the trailhead than in the backcountry. But I don't see you suggesting we stay out of our cars.

Bill, I tend to agree with you. I am more familiar with the water (scuba diving,snorkling, body surfing) than really cold weather, but my experience was that I could be comfortable in water that would completely freak out other people and some water-like big waves-was more than I could handle, but I'd see guys out in surf that would have killed me in a heartbeat. It's all about training and just going out and learning how to be comfortable. If you take it one step at a time, you eventually get better at it.

I've seen people get off the plane from Hawaii in San Francisco in winter in shorts and tee shirts and be surprised that it is cold outside. People drive up to Tahoe in winter from SF or LA with no cold weather gear in their car because they are going to a hotel and have no common sense. They get caught on 80 or 50 in bad weather and then they are in real trouble. Happens every winter.

I don't know about 'routinely' but back around 1990 or so we had a trip planned for early February off the Blue Ridge Parkway. We all submitted vacation requests for that Friday and everything. Well, it turned out to be the coldest weekend in like 50 years or something. 20 below or colder at night, below zero all day. One of the guys was on his first winter trip and absolutely refused to get out of his clothes before getting in his sleeping bag. In the morning he was borderline hypothermic and we had to hightail it back to the car to get him to some heat. I bought my first thermarest shortly after that trip.

The coldest I've seen was driving from Alaska to North Carolina in February of '97. At lunchtime in Whitehorse it was -42C (about the same F). It was COLD. I have no idea what the nightime lows were, but it was cold enough that the PCV valve on the car froze shut and the front main seal blew due to the pressure. Prior to that, even with a piece of cardboard covering the entire radiator, you couldn't keep the ice off the side windows of the car. 5W30 synthetic motor oil flowed like pudding. I can hardly imagine backpacking at 40 below.

The coldest I ever camped in was about 0 degrees with a negative 10 windchill. It was way back when I was in middle school, so I wasn't the smartest person in the world. I was super hot when I got in the tent, so stripped down to my PJ's. As you can guess, that was a terrible descision. Spent the whole night shivering, not sleeping. But when we woke up we had some hot tea, and it felt really good going down.

Also, I once went camping on a retreat that I didn't know was supposed to be about 50 degrees at night. When we got to the campsite there was about 5 inches of snow, and it dropped to about 17. I think that was colder than before just becuase of how underprepared I was.

There is a similar thread posted on The Lightweight Backpacker forum and several gear lists for very cold weather have been posted-including one by Jim Shaw, who posts here. A couple of the posts are about being out in -40C, way too cold for me.

-15 at West Branch State Park in northeast Ohio, back in the Winter of '99.

I was using my Diamond Brand Mountain Home tent and LL Bean High Camp mummy bag then. I was warm as toast in my tent!

-35 ,(that was the minimum mark on my thermometer - it may well have been colder than that -but in reality, it wouldn't have mattered)on Mt. Washington NH, in 1977 in a snowcave with a friend after our tent shredded (for some stupid reason we decided to drive up on a long winter weekend, as seniors in high school, and try to climb it, without telling anyone where we were going, without signing in and without leaving a note on my VW's windshield).

Hi Tom D
I have no idea how cold it got when I was a Boy Scout winter camping in Illinois. In the Sierras I am generally below 8 thousand feet and the coldest I've seen was minus 5 with 50 mph gusts. I was sleeping in my wm bag wearing my long underwear and down bibs and a fleece jacket. I pulled the big down coat over the top of my sleeping bag, which added mucho insulation - i pulled it behind me to keep my back warm.
The winds nearly tore the tent from its moorings but it was anchored with 4 skis shoved into the snow so it couldn't actually go anywhere. In the morning I slid out of my bag and pulled the coat on and I was fully dressed for -60 wind chill. I crawled out of the tent into the vestibule, zipped the tent and unzipped the vestibule and crawled out into an awesome storm. It had snowed at night and snow was blowing horizontally in laminar flow in a band from the ground to about three feet up. The tent was flapping wildly and I managed to shovel enough snow around the vestibule to make it wind tight, then I got the Coleman Xtreme lit inside the vestibule and I sat outside in the snow, and right in the laminar snow blow, but I was not cold anywhere except my face, but if the rest of your body is warm enough the exposed parts will become heat radiaters and will stay pretty warm. I unzipped the door just enough to reach in and put more snow in the pan until I had boiling water for brewed coffee and instant oatmeal.
After packing up we skied a mile and a half back to the truck. I wouldn't say the unexpected temp drop and storm caused us any trouble - our "normal gear" covered it and we had our skis so we could travel through almost any weather.

So many times the news story is about people sho were "snow bound in the back country" being rescued. The wife described him as "experienced". They were found essentially ok, but pinned down. The point being that "they were found" by other people who did get up and brave the storm - for them! Now avolanche can be a real problem that could keep you from moving for a few days waiting for it to consolodate but thats being prudent not "snow bound". Being able to travel either on skis or snowshoes until you decide its time to hole up for a while for warmth or sustenance and continueing to travel, stop eat, travel, you'll get out.

So I may as well bring up this subject here and now.
If you are out in a blizzard and you are being aerobic but you need to stop and you have a warm down coat in your pack, what do you do? If you pull that down over the outside of your ski outfit it will become soaked and useless quickly, even if its a goretex down coat, the inside will soak up the water and snow that was previously on the outside. On the other hand if you take off your goretex jacket to pull the down on under it, you will get snow on your under clothes, down jacket and inside of goretex coat whiile doing it, then when you take it off you go through the same process and you have to stuff a damp down garment into your pack - not a good idea. So what would you do? I do think that a synthetic or down "belay jacket" that was completely waterproof inside and out would be ideal, as you could put in on over everything else.
Jim S

I've never had any desire to go camping in the snow. I have rugby season February through the beginning of May, so if there's a mild January weekend in the Carolina's (highs in mid sixties to low seventies) I think I'll head south to the SC low country for a trip. In that type of weather, I wouldn't expect the weather to get below 35 degrees.

I had some cold mornings while car camping in Michigan when I was a kid, but my Dad was an early riser so there was usually a fire going. I had a couple of cold nights last May in West Virginia. Maybe down in the low 30's.

Oh yes - I seem to have put this out of my mind but my wife reminded me. I spent a night near the base of the Eiger in a 30 degree summer bag wearing a snowmobile suit and it reached -40 that night. I was 19...
Jim S can you say - Cold?

Just drove from Winnipeg MB to Edmonton AB last night. It was around -42, and it froze my PCV valve. I was spraying OIL out from around the seal of the valve. Car heater was useless, but I foud that if you run the fan at a lower setting it allowed the air to hold on the heater core a few micro seconds more.

JtD

I went camping in November with my school's nature group. The weather overnight dropped to about 30 degrees. I was pretty cold, but thankfully I had a wool blanket in my sleeping bag adding some warmth.

I live in North Pole, Alaska and know cold. While many of you have been to Alaska on expeditions and vacations, I have lived in it day-in and day-out for 4 winters. Jim S has it down! If you know what you are doing and you have the proper equipment, winter camping can be done in comfort.

I have been learning the importance of items like mittens, hoods, and belay jackets (like the Marmot Needle). I carry my Nalgene upside down so ice doesn't freeze in the lid. I don't carry canister stoves. I always have a shovel with me on trips... I know cold but I'm still learning!

I've been on Wickersham Dome, north of Fairbanks, a few years back. I was told that it was -55F when we left and when we got to the top of the dome, the wind was so strong that ice sickles grew sideways. Ice froze my eyes (not eye lashes!) when I looked into the wind and was taking our trekking poles when we picked unplanted them. You do the math for wind chill...

There were parts of me that were beyond painfully cold, but because of that experience, I am prepared to do it again. I would love to go adventure and learn from people like Jim S, Tom D, or Stevethefolkie.

Sorry for lack of memory... List of wise men should include Bill S.

I'd really like to see a book consisting of lessons learned from all the old-heads in the outdoor world. That would be worth so much more than an instruction manual for ice climbing or rescue techniques (which shouldn't even be available in print as it requires hand-on training).

When I was about 13 years old, our boy scout troop experienced a winter campout in central Minnesota. We knew it was going to be a cold one, but apparently none of our adult leaders knew just how cold! The temperature dipped to 30 below that night. This was in the 1970's, and none of us were well equipped. A few had excellent down sleeping bags, but most of us were in doubled up cloth-type sleeping bags with blankets and johnny-handwarmers inside. I remember being in a little ball all night wondering why we were there.

In the morning, only three of the ten cars started, so we spent our Sunday trying to jump start vehicles all morning while we told stories of our sleepless, dreamless (unless you count thoughts of fireplaces!) nights.

We were all pretty proud when we drove back to the church where our angry and intense parents had gathered to chew out the scout leaders for taking that risk.

Since then, I have outfitted myself with some quality gear and realized that old axiom:

there's no bad weather, just bad equipment....

Well.....maybe!

Quote:

-)

One additional story:

About ten years ago when Minnesota had it's coldest day ever recorded (-70 in Tower, Minnesota), I went outside to walk around for a few minutes in our 57 below zero (ambient air temperataure, not wind chill!) I laughed at myself, because I tried spitting to see if it would crack:-)!

I had remembered reading "To Build A Fire" by Jack London and his main character had done that.

Apparently it has to be even colder than fifty below for that to happen. And I'm guessing, it has to be a certain moisture content in the air and all.

But it was fun trying!

Scott:-)

Scott's story about spitting in the cold reminded me of some of the times in the Alaska Range when we would stop for a pee break. The first time you pee in -40 or colder weather and you hear the cracking sound as it freezes on the way to the ground is a bit of a shocker ("what the ... was that??"). Yes, it really does happen at that kind of temperature.

But last month, down in Antarctica, the rules say you carry your pee bottle with you, use that, and when you get to camp you either dump it into the barrel (which will be flown out back to South America) or in some trail camps dump it in a designated spot to minimize impact (concentrated in high use areas, not spread all over the place).

My coldest was on Mt Jacinto in San Bernandino Mts. Veteran's day weekend 1979. The first day was 60 degrees. A front came through that night and I woke up and my A-16 expedition tent was around my ears with 3 foot of snow on top. We were at about 9500 ft elevation. The temperature had dropped to -6 degrees. We packed up walked the ridge for 5 miles til we got to our vehicle which was buried (8000 ft elevation). We stayed there for 3 days with plenty of food (and a gallon of Jack) until a chained four wheel drive truck being pulled by a CAT gave us a ride to nearest ridge they had set up for Helicopter pickup to Palm Springs. We picked up our truck the following week (it was back to 70 degrees). A boy scout troup who had been at the same campsite was not so lucky. One of the boys did not wake up and they were wearing tennis shoes. This was not the environment for this attire.

Dan, thanks for the kind words, but, as I have made clear elsewhere, my experience is very limited compared to Bill and Jim who have done the big mountains and the true expeditions. Much of my knowledge has been learned from the mistakes of myself and others. If anything, my "skill," such as it is, is my ability to convey those lessons to others.

Having said that, I have found that in general, camping isn't rocket science; it certainly involves skills, but those can be learned, even on your own sometimes, fairly easily. For example, if you have a stove, spend a bit of time at home learning how to take it apart and put it back together. Get a repair kit for it. No need to learn that lesson miles from anywhere, when you can do it in your kitchen or out on the patio. BTW,I don't recommend starting up an old stove in the kitchen without the means to put out a fire handy. It only took me about two minutes to learn that one. You can learn to use a map and compass or a GPS in your local park, rather than trying to do so while lost miles from your car in the wild somewhere.

For the average backpacker, if you read Colin Fletcher's The Complete Walker and absorb as much of what he says as you can, practice a bit before you go (which I did)and use some common sense, you'll be fine.

Aside from mountaineering, which presents very different problems that do require specialized training and skills, backpacking, in my opinion, boils down to six basic rules:
1. Stay dry;
2. Stay warm (or cool in hot weather);
3. Stay fed and watered;
4. Don't get lost;
5. Know how to treat basic injuries.
6. Don't panic if you break one of the first five.
The rest is just details.

There are plenty of good books and advice on forums such as this one that deal with all of the above. I'm very big on reading. Is that a substitute for practical experience? No, but it is a good start to understanding what to expect when you go out.

I started out winter camping in the east, reading Harry Roberts' great book on the subject. His make due with what you already have made for too much weight looking back, but a great way to get there and see if you like it.

In my present N. Colorado S. Wyoming treks, temps often reach -10, -20. I don't have the equipment to go much more than about -25, but it's just a matter of getting a good night's sleep.

In the west, things warm up greatly come dawn if you've picked good weather. And brisk hiking in temps of 5-20 deg. is much easier than anyone who hasn't done it would guess.

My very few tips --- (I'm more a 3-season guy)

1. wide mouth containers only for water. Rig up a GOOD pot cozy wrap around it. (my first sloppy efforts did not work that well)

2. A white gas stove or gravity feed isobutane stove.

3. I love vapor barrier liners or a VB shirt in my bag.

4. Flashlights, unless always kept warm should take Lithuim or Lithium rechargables. Forget the rest.

5. I'm not skilled at rigging of natural ground insulation, I take a good high R value pad or combination.

Back in the 80's climbing Mt Washington in N.H. in January. We hiked up the Lions Head Trail to the Alpine Gardens and it was like going from a normal cold winter day to narley artic conditions. Winds were steady 30-40 mph coming in from the W SW with gusts up to 60 or 70. Walking on windblown snowy - ice like surface with crampons was made difficult with shifting winds causing you at times to stumble forward and when you find youself along the edge of the Tuckerman Ravine, it was not aplace to be in these conditions. One time I had to crouch behind a large rock to get out of the wind so I could scrape the ice off the in side of my ski goggles.
Noticing a cloud cap above the summit we knew that conditions would steadly get worse if we were to continue.
We turned around and headed down to the base of Tuckermans to set up camp and try again for the summit tommorrow.
During the night temperatures dropped, I slepted in a North Face bag rated to -30 and was chilly. Woke up the next morning with frost 1/8" thick covering inside the tent, my contact lens was frozen in the lens solution (was kept in the inner pocket of sleeping bag).
A Forest Ranger had stopped by and questioned us if we knew the where abouts of a climber that had seperated from his partner the day before. After we informed him that we've seen no one, we decided to bail.
By the time we packed up and made it down to the trailhead in Pinkham Notch it was about noon.
We drove into North Conway and notice the Bank thermometer read -17 F at 1:PM., knowing this we can only surmize that the temperature the night before had to be in the -30's.

The coldest I have ever RECORDED was during a solo camp on the Kokanee Glacier near my hometown of Nelson, B.C. in 1978. It was -41*F and I was in my original Colo.-made Marmot Mountain Gore-Tex/down bag inside my Fjallraven Expedition tent. I wore spare sox, my woolen beret and my merino longjohns, the old "Mellofleece" brand from England.

I was OK, but, not real warm and I stayed for three nights at temps. from about -30*F to the -41; then, I snowshoed out to the highway. This was not really "fun" and I won't deliberately go out in worse than -20*F now as it is too much work and hassle, but, it WAS an interesting experience.

I had several years of winter camping experience when I did this and in this exact area; winter camping is something to start very cautiously and solo is NOT a good idea until you have substantial cold weather experience. You MUST be aboe to hydrate yourself and candle lanterns and a bottle under your pillow work well for this; DO NOT neglect this crucial aspect of cold weather function.

I HIGHLY recommend reading "Winter Wise" by Monte Alford of the Yukon for anyone wanting to go out in really cold weather; my wife was an outpost RN in the YT and the NWT circa the '70s and he is the real deal.