While we're talking backpacks -

I've started doing just what everyone suggests about packing for a trip - lay it all out before stuffing the sack. I have two packs, a day pack and a larger pack (2000 and 4500 cu. in.). I'm getting ready for my first over night hike and "ready" is the truly operative word here.

Well, I decided to try the smaller pack first, so I got my list out to make sure everything is there, and got about two thirds through the list before I figured out it all ain't gonna fit. There's nothing on the list that is luxurious, and most of it is small (tiny) anyway. I planned on clipping the sleeping bag and pad to the outside.

The tent is small, and other than that, the pots are the next biggest item (MSR blacklite, just so you'll know).

In the opinion of this list, is a daypack like this one described really just for hiking without overnight gear? I always thought I was supposed to carry something, maybe not a tent though, for emergencies even when not planning a night's stay. I doubt if I would fill the 4500, but don't want to compress stuff to the point of ruining it all. Or am I not being picky enough about what to leave behind?

Right now, I have no choice on which to take.

Thanks

Steve

Well, Steve, you have just asked one of the most argued questions in the backpacking world. "Officially", you are supposed to have The 10 Essentials with you whenever you go more than 2 feet from the trailhead, "Just In Case!" The Official 10 Essentials are a list that appeared in MFOTH (The Bible of the Outdoors, Mountaineering: Freedom of the Hills), way back in its first edition over a half century ago, and in some form 30 or 40 years before that, and maybe even descended from the old mountain man's "possibles" kit.

The idea is that "just in case" some horrible event happens and you are stuck out overnight, the 10 Essentials will help you survive and maybe even get help. The big problem with the list is that it is fairly specific to a particular environment and includes items that are useless in many other environments while omitting items that are extremely important in those other environments. For example, matches and fire starter are included. Fine where you can get fuel for a fire, but what about above timberline, or in winter in the Arctic tundra? "Water" is not on the list, but what if you are in the middle of the Sahara?

The original philosophy of the 10 Essentials list is the basic "Be Prepared" of the Scout Motto, or the first point of Leave No Trace, "Plan Ahead and Prepare". An important criterion that is overlooked by most of the 10 Essentials Evangelists is that you are planning for survival in case of disaster, not for luxury. This means if you have to spend an extra night out, you can survive, maybe cold, maybe uncomfortable, maybe a bit thirsty (not completely dehydrated), maybe a bit hungry (not starve to death). Humans can survive 3 days without water (depends on whether it is 130F Sahara Desert with no shade or cool temperate forest with lots of shade), 3 weeks without food, and so on. If you are backpacking, you already have a sleeping bag, water bottle, warm enough clothes for overnight, etc. So all you need add, maybe, is an extra day's food and fuel for your stove.

Point is, you do not need to add a whole extra pack's worth of completely independent "10 Essentials" You have most of them anyway. These are not extras. They are the foundation of your pack. The list is:

1. Map (yup, but there are maps and there are maps. A GPSR does not substitute for a map)
2. Compass (a good baseplate compass, not one of the tiny balls, not a lensatic)
3. Flashlight, headlamp, extra batteries (in northern Alaska in midsummer? You probably have one for an overnight backpack anyway, and the tiny headlamps like BD's Moonlight are a couple ounces with batteries lasting hundreds of hours)
4. Extra food (maybe a day's survival ration, remembering you can survive 3 weeks without food)
5. Extra clothes (you need enough for the weather anyway, not a whole other change)
6. Sunglasses (ummm, in desert or on snow, but maybe not in deep forest)
7. First aid supplies (hmmm, do you have first aid training to match what can happen, especially when you are solo? I always wondered what they meant by this. I have an MD friend who carries what looks like a full "crash cart", but 90 percent of us out there wouldn't know what any of the stuff is for. And if you break your neck? I thought about this real hard when the snowboarder ran into me and dislocated my elbow - what would I have done if I were skiing solo in the backcountry and fell/hit a tree somehow dislocating my elbow or shoulder.)
8. Pocket knife (for what? and what kind, a maxed-out Swiss Army knife aka "SAK", or a simple single blade? Again, you really need to think through what the knife is going to be for. A pocket knife won't protect you from a grizzly, and it won't provide fire wood. Will that corkscrew on your SAK help your survival. Yeah, I know Magyver always saved the day with only his SAK, some parachute cord, and some duct tape)
9. Matches, in waterproof container (above timberline? in winter in the Arctic tundra? In the middle of the sand dunes in the Sahara?)
10. Fire starter (same comment as matches).

A signalling device is not on the "official" list, nor is extra water, although they appear on some versions of the list. Some people list "15 essentials", or "20 essentials".

Basically, be familiar with where you want to go in terms of temperature and weather outlook and prepare accordingly.

On the pack size - I have gone on weekend backpacks for which your 2000 cu in would have been just fine for what I carried. And I have gone on others where I needed more room than your 4500 cu incher. Really depends on what you want to do on the trip. If I am out to shoot lots of pictures, I carry lots of photo gear, including tripod. But sometimes it is just to get out, in which case the "daypack" is just fine.

I'd rather carry a 1/2 empty "full sized" pack than a fully stuffed "egg" on my back - but maybe that's just me.

Also - I've noticed that gear can tend to "grow" when you're packing it in the woods, instead of packing it in the comfort of your own home.

Let's say you take the small pack, and it's fairly cool when you start hiking - so you're wearing a fleece jacket - now it warms up - the pack is stuffed - do you somehow attach it to the outside of your over-stuffed pack OR just sweat ?

An over-burdened day pack isn't going to be comfortable on the trail - an under-burdened regular (backpacking) pack will feel like "nothing" on your back - just don't feel required to fill the darned thing up!

As for the 10 essentials - they should always travel with you - day hike or overnight - but what you carry in your head is more important. What use is the map and compass if you can't read the map and don't know how to use the compass? Same goes for the first aid kit, your matches (I know we all can use matches - but if you can't prepare a decent firebed - tinder and all - to help the matches along you'll just waste 'em all) and other components of the kit.

Now, I've been backpacking for a lot of years (37 or so) - at this point I just chuck stuff into my pack and go when the spirit hits me (at least for an overnight or weekend) - so maybe I'm a bit casual about "what to pack" - but remember - along with getting back to nature and all that rot - this is supposed to be fun and relaxing - so just take the bigger pack - load your gear into it - get out in the woods and have a blast!

Steve

Yep, that's about the way I sized it up: the way you both have described it. Common sense takes up such little space, is so hard to come by, and hopefully be in there with all the other stuff. Good logic helps also.

The daypack will stay home this time, and wait for something less demanding.

Thanks

Steve,
Have you gotten around to getting rain gear yet? When I do day trips I take my rain gear (jacket, pants, gaiters (I always wear gatiers, rain or not)) figuring that if I get stuck out over night this along with wearing the extra clothing will make me as comfortable as I need to be. BTW, a small tarp is something I always pack so if I really needed to (haven't yet) I could at least use that as additional protection from the elements.

As for worst case medical scenarios, welll, don't break a leg and be careful not to risk breaking a leg (like rock hopping).

adam

Hey Bill, Say for instance you had discloacted your elbow on a solo hike (not a ski tour) would you have been able to walk out? Could you have gotten your pack on? Would you have wanted it on? Could you have drug it behind you? Was the pain enough to keep you from thinking clearly?

adam

I omitted a signifact point in my post, I don't bother taking a tent on day trips, I rely on the rain gear and in the worst case the tarp.

ag

Let's see - there's TWO (2) Steves in this thread - so I'll let my ego be my guide and respond to the question about raingear.
I know a lot of folks who swear by gaiters - I do under two sets of conditions. First is snow, second is really heavy rain. I've tried to be cool and wear gaiters when I hike in good weather (I guess it's cool - most of the younger guys with all the new equipment seem to wear 'em - and after all - "Backpacker" magazine almosts insists upon 'em) - but I prefer to feel the cool breezes on my bare legs. I do keep an old pair of lycra cycling tights wadded up in my daypack just in case I get caught out or the temp drops -
Raingear - for dayhikes I take a (brace yourself) poncho. Yep - the absolute summit of "uncool" - however - it's oversized (the back extends 18 or so inches for when you're wearing a backpack) AND it's big enough to string up into a decent tent/tarp for the night. My "normal kit" also includes a 5*7 bit of Tyvec that folds up really small, weighs next to nothing and could potentially be used as a groundsheet if I had to stay out overnight.
A tent on a dayhike - I'd find it significant only if you DID bring one along - I'm trying to understand why anyone would bring a tent along on a dayhike - in fact it's pretty rare for me to take a full blown tent on an extended backpacking trip - I prefer my tarp - combined with careful site selection and clever pitching.
So Adam - careful though you may be - what would your plans be were you to, say, wrench a knee? I mean if you're on a day hike and dislocate your elbow (although I've never heard of a dislocated elbow - shoulder yes - elbow no) the answer is pretty simple - get your map and compass - take some sightings - mark your location on the map - stash the daypack and walk out to your car - come back later to get your stuff (assuming you can't shoulder it and cannot drag it) -

In the past few years, I have taken to using gaiters all the time. This first came from orienteering (I run advanced courses, which go off-trail for the most part). Orienteering gaiters have a plastic front to shield against banging your shins on low branches on bushes, plus the material reduces the collection of star thistles, sticky seed-things (like wild oats), and such, and it helps reduce the amount of sand, pebbles, and dirt getting into your shoes. Since it helped so much keeping the junk out of my shoes, I started using low gaiters (the anklet type) for all my hiking on dusty and sandy trails. Not only does it keep the socks cleaner, but it makes the feet a lot more comfortable (no more of those annoying pebbles under foot and sand between the toes). Yeah, it's nice to wear shorts, and the anklet gaiters allow your legs to gather the breezes. Then again, since I use sunblock by the gallon on all exposed skin (the legacy of too many "healthy suntans" in my youth and resulting frequent visits to the dermatologist for liquid nitrogen spray jobs), the dust from the trails leaves my legs a dark dusty brown by the end of all my hikes.

On the elbow - the specific incident was that a snowboarder (37-year old woman, who apologized by saying - I'm not making this up - "Sorry, dude") ran into me as I was about to enter the lift line (during a tele workshop). She knocked me down in such a way that I was lying on the arm - think face-down with the right elbow dislocated and the skis pointing to the left. Being tele bindings, they are not easy to release from a face-down twisted position. To raise up and turn, I would have needed my right arm, the dislocated one. Just try putting on skis and lying down twisted half-way, then trying to get up without using the off-side arm (that's the one that's underneath). I have tried it since my arm healed and can get into a half-sitting position while favoring the injured arm, but haven't managed to work into a standing position. The problem is once you are sitting, somehow getting over the skis and standing, even with the help of one ski pole. I think I could have managed it eventually, but it would take time if I were solo and had done the dislocation by running into a tree or taking a hard fall.

Dislocations can happen to any joint if you impact it in just the right way - shoulder, elbow, knee, even hip. Pain? Yessiree!!! That was close to the worst pain I have ever felt, the only thing being worse was when the nerve in a tooth died slowly over several days. And I am very pain-tolerant compared to most people (so my doctor tells me when he slices off the little skin cancers from my years of "healthy tans").

Walk out, if it happened on a hike? Well, I probably would be able to get up, if I didn't have skis on - getting them off was a major problem that was solved by the Ski Patrol doing it for me. And it was no problem walking - I walked into the first aid room after the sled ride down the hill (Ski Patrol sled rides are a combination of a thrill, fast roller-coaster style, and sheer terror, since they completely wrap you with no visibility - just fly down the slope at what seems like a hunnert mile-an-hour, not being able to anticipate bounces and twists and turns, in the blind). I think I would rather have walked down. Then again, the bouncing popped the elbow back in place, which reduced the pain by orders of magnitude.

Carry the pack? Well, to get up, I am sure that unless it was a small daypack, I would have has to get the pack off somehow. But getting it off over a dislocated elbow or, worse, shoulder would have been very problematic. With the elbow, the lower part of my arm was just flopping around loose, and shooting pains with every little move.

Pain enough to keep me from thinking clearly? Since I don't think clearly anyway .... Well, it would depend on what else happened in the accident. In this case, I was thinking clearly enough to make a few wisecracks to my buddies on the Ski Patrol when they did the LOC thing (if you have done WFR or EMT, you know about LOC). Their comment to me afterward was that I was the most lucid victim they had ever dealt with, with that level of injury, so don't judge by me.

But the thing is, in thinking things through afterward and during, and talking about it with friends who spend a lot of time in the hills, both solo and groups, in solo backcountry, whether skiing or hiking, the situation would have been very difficult to deal with. People have done so (think Joe Simpson, among others). It takes experience, training, and a lot of thought.

Try not to trust your ego too much. The msg was intended for Blackbeard Steve.

Not sure what I'd do if I wrenched a knee. Maybe try to rig up something with my trekking poles and the duct tape that I keep wrapped on one of them and the sport tape from the 1st aid kit. Or maybe better... might put on the rain pants and stuff them with extra cltothing around the wounded knee to help stabilize the knee. Maybe double up the pants, one leg in the other to try to keep the side sip from blowing open. Maybe reinforce with the whole thing after stuffing with tape? I dunno, hope I never find out.

as for gaiters they keep the rocks & other crap out of my boots and I can also use them to help keep my feet warmer. I can scunch them down if my feet get too warm.

Steve, I agree with the others-take the big pack. You want to get used to carrying it anyway and the more you use it, the more you will see what needs to be adjusted or how to pack it to make it the most comfortable. I'm sure you'll be fiddling with the straps and adjustments more than once until you get it, "just right." You may find yourself adjusting the length of the torso adjustment and so on, if it has one. Don't be afraid to experiment with the fit.

How you pack is just as important as what you pack. Just about any book on backpacking covers that.

Bill-I dislocated my elbow trying to learn how to hanglide. Crashed on takeoff and it popped out of place. I was so stunned, I reached over, grabbed my wrist and popped it back into place without thinking about it. Then it started to hurt. Took forever to get back to more or less normal.
Kids, don't do this at home.

Dislocated a shoulder too, but that had to be set by a doctor. Long story, but he did it with me laying on the floor of his carport. He just put his foot in my armpit and pulled on it until it popped back in. Now that one really hurt for a while. It would be a long walk back if that had happened out in the woods.

Don't bring elbow gaiters....Sometimes the key to using a very small pack is the size of your sleeping bag. A forty-degree down bag would be ideal for that. Sometimes I also save weight and bulk with a very worn-out half-sized closed-cell pad. Ultralight version of self-inflating pad is also pretty small. Others are too big.

Stuff tied to pack exterior will get dirty and quite possibly wet and damaged from abrasion, or could become detached and lost when you're not paying attention.

Adam,

Rain gear, for now, is a luxury for me. I'll try and get something in the real raingear line one day, but for now, I'll just have to use what I have. I would like to get a pack cover though. And watch weather reports a little more closely.

My first aid kit is not well equipped either. It does have the very basics for dressing wounds that require it, some pain stuff, Alka-Seltzer (for me at my age, very important), and the like. I really don't know what else to put in it unless I get a lot bigger pack.

Thanks.

Tom and all,

The reference to a daypack for the 2k size is just the name they referred to it in the description. I had originally hoped to use it for single overnighters, but now see it is too small - at least for what I plan on taking with me on these trips. It would work fine for true "day hikes", but until I get a little gravel in my boots, I'll probably error on the more-is-best side. Heck, I don't even know what to look for when I'm searching for a tent site. So this first trip I'm building up to will use the larger, maybe unfull, pack.

Now you guys have done it. I need to research these gaiter things. I usually wear long pants, and for the season at hand, will definitely do so. I too spent time soaking up thermals in my younger days, and my skin shows the damage. I worked outside most of my younger days, things like long shoreman, construction work, brick laying, "paper" boy. So at the very least, I protect my legs. Besides, they ain't very pretty now and I don't show these things off.

Thanks

blackbeard,

I'm going on a three night, four day camping trip in early December (December 7 thru 10th) on a south Georgia border island.

If you live anywhere near the southeast, I invite you to come along (if your able to get reservations of course).

I'm strongly believing you need someone to go with you on your first trip.

Camping on an island is like the disneyworld of camping and a great place to start. You can't get real lost on an island (I have intentionally tried. You walk far enough, you come to the water) and a NPS ranger is always within a five to six mile radius from wherever we are.

If your interested, post your email address for me and I'll get the contact details to you (I'm one of the board moderators and I can delete the email address form your post after I contact you).

I gotta warn you though, my camping partner and I have a network of trails on this island that are meant to be traveled at night. We follow reflective tacks using chem lights attached to hats.

We tend to purposely try to get lost and end up doing a lot of bushwacking (at night). We frown on the use of flashlights (especially in camp) and think nothing of wading thru swamps barefoot.

I guarantee you would have a great and fun experience and preparing for future camping outings would be a breeze.

We don't believe in sharing equipment, so you would need to be prepared to carry everything you would require.

I could tell you exactlly what to bring in your largest backpack.

e

Ed,

That's very gracious, but I probably could not make it at this time. I have to be a little careful right now with the distance I travel from home due to my wife's health (she had a stroke and did not completely recover).

I have camped on an island ages ago as a teen. It wasn't a very small island in the middle of a lake, but the fog rolled in over the lake and visibility was cut to feet. It was a lot of fun, just as what you describe sounds to be. Of course, there was no hiking involved. We just rowwed out to the island and set up a tent - no critters or anything to else to get us in deep trouble.

I see a few advantages in taking off on my own the first time. I also see advantages in having someone to guide me. The obvious reason for soloing is something akin to the reasons for not setting up in my backyard. It's too easy to walk into the house and get what I forgot, give up if it gets too cold, things like that. So I would need to make it on my own, literally by soloing. Of course, there's more chance to mess up, and really badly. Having a partner would be a great benefit as they could guide me through some of these errors I make, and help avoid others I hadn't considered.

So thank you very much for the offer and consideration, but I think I need to bow out of this one. I live in the western part of central West Virginia, a little town named Buffalo. We still have parades before football games, and everyone seems to know something about everyone. A real old, classy little town, but miles from anywhere.

Maybe another time after I see how she fairs with the short trip, just in case of trouble and I need to get home quickly, or at least as fast as I can.

What a wonderful person!

Steve

Ummm, Eddie boy, that doesn't sound like a very appetizing invitation - "join us, we deliberately get lost bushwacking at night without flashlights, and you are on your own." Would you send Steve on a snipe hunt, too? Don't quite understand about the reflective thumbtacks if you don't take flashlights, though. But at least, you don't need gaiters for wading barefoot through the swamps (hmmmm, what about the other 'gators, though?)

Not sure even I would join such an expedition. It sounds a lot like the Blair Witch Project, except on an island. Are there sharks waiting at the shoreline, too?

Good laugh, as usual.

Steve, I know enough about Ed to know that he would watch over you. Just watch out for that Southern sense of humor (see, Ed, the Southern Redneck attitude is rubbing off on you, despite your denials {8=>D )

I love night hiking with just letting the old eyes adjust to the available light (keep in mind I'm an ex-industrial photographer with 23 years in the darkroom).

The chem lights are placed on the bill of a ball cap and are bright enough to see the reflective tacks from 20 feet away, while maintaining good night vision.

I have had to make decisions about continuing on a trail covered with three feet of water (with two red eyes reflecting back at you from between trees) and within a mile of camp or backtrack five or six miles. Luckily, it has been my experience that alligators don't charge you and are just as apprehensive about you as you are about them. They just swim laterally back and forth watching you. It is a wee bit spooky.

Yes, there are sharks. There are reports of sharks attacking kiaks as they paddle over to the island.

I have also seen 8 foot alligators sunning themselves on the beach, partially in the surf, on the Atlantic Ocean side of the island.

Lots of boars, bobcats, wild horses and ferrel little piggies.

We all have our own thing. I'd rather be wading thru a swamp than be perched on a ledge 20,000 feet up in -40 degree weather.

I keep telling you - It ain't a southern sense of humour. It was groomed in the hills of Pennsylvania. In my youth, my nightime adventures took place in coal mines and on railroad tracks.

BTW...The Blair Witch Project was actually filmed by University of Central Florida students, and filming took place about 3 miles from my house.

Come to think of it, The Night of the Living Dead was filmed near the house I grew up in.

Shoot, I'm starting to see a pattern here...

Well, I think I know what Ed's talking about. As a kid, a few of us would run out to a wooded area at night, no lights except for moonlight, just to scare ourselves. It's a lot like riding a roller coaster - most people do it for the scare, although some like it for the weightlessness and such. It's just how you approach these things. It really wasn't being scared, but something else; I just can't describe it in words.

Then again, I didn't grow up with alligators, so I have a different view of them - and being scared is not part of that view. More like a logical conscience. It keeps telling me not to go near one in the wild since I don't know what they will do.

Bill, you're right in that this didn't sound like a trip I would pick as a first time attempt, but if it presented itself, and time was available, I might do it under the conditions Ed provided. I see all of my future hikes as an adventure, and an opportunity to see things most will never even dream about. Why else would I want to do this?

Thanks, again -

Steve

Ed continues to claim "I keep telling you - It ain't a southern sense of humour. It was groomed in the hills of Pennsylvania. In my youth, my nightime adventures took place in coal mines and on railroad tracks."

Ok, Ed, I got it. It's just a generic redneck sense of humor, inculcated by association with coal miners and steel workers (like my uncles who grew up in the Pittsburg area).

Speaking of rednecks, I had always heard and believed that the term "redneck" came from the red, sunburned necks of Southern farmers. But recently on History, Discovery, or one of those channels, there was a program that claimed it came from a much earlier time. I forget the details, but I think it had to do with some group of immigrants that ended up working in the mines and mills of Pennsylvania and West Virginia and typically wore red bandannas to protect against the heat (apparently gets very hot in the mines). Maybe it was the show on mining machines. I will have to note it when the show plays again.

Your uncles grew up in which Pittsburg? Kansas, California or New Hampsire?

I'm from Pittsburgh.

If I'm not mistaken, the origin of the term redneck began in Scotland and followed to this country when immigrants from Scotland came to Appalachia and the south. I think it was some type of religious position insignia.

ok, Pittsburgh. Actually, Universal, in Plum Township, Pennsylvania. Whatever. There aren't any coal mines or steel mills in Kansas, as far as I know, or New Hampshire, and the ones here in California (Black Diamond Mines, now a regional park, near Pittsburg, CA, and the Kaiser Steel Mills that used to be in Fontana, CA) are long since closed.

Wrongo, Denali breath!

There is Patriot Steel in Portsmouth, NH, Havens Steel Co in Ottawa, KS and when I lived in the 'Burgh it was Plum Boro.

So.... If you ever associate me with rednecks ever again, I'm gonna marry your dog and walk your sister.

Wait a minute - that sounds incorrect, did I say that right?

So, how about that rascal Neptune?