Soft Shell Jackets and Warmth!

Hello everyone,
I have been skiing all my life now (25 years) and I just got into the softshell jacket craze. I researched softshells and purchases a Mountain Hardwear Alchemy jacket. This is supposed to be one of the best mountaineering jackets there are. It has a Gore-tex windproof membrane so no wind gets through. However, I thought softshells were used as a replacement for a midlayer and an outer layer. When I use the Alchemy jacket outdoors in 30 or so degrees F, it really isnt all that warm. Not unless I put a down vest underneath do I really stay warm.
Are softshells made to be super warm or do you guys still layer underneath them when it gets fairly cold. How do you guys keep warm on the slopes? thanks.

John
Thickness = warmth. Advertising hype = ?
Softshells ARE NOT WARM, they are a special layer that works mostly for extreme sports where you have immense aerobic heat output combined with the associated sweat. The need to vent while maintaining a wind layer for your skin is of paramount importance in these activities, not insulation.

If you are not an extreme aerobic sport person you will not need a soft shell. Many people are reporting that they don't even take their softshell camping anymore. I have an Arterix softshell which is great when its 50 degrees out but its not a "warm jacket".

I live in Bend Oregon and since it was -5 when I got up at 8 this morning, I have a perfect clothes testing area at my house. People who live in cold dress differently than people who visit the cold. I work construction outside. I wear wool socks and old Sorel PAC boots. I wear an old pair of 300 fleece pants under a triple layer goretex bib, and on top I wear (Yes I know) a cotton tee shirt, a cotton hooded pullover and then as an overlayer depending on temperature I wear either another cotton hood with a zipper or a TNF Puffin down sweater and maybe a light cheap coated nylon shell if its snowing. Gloves are rarely worn except at break.

Thickness = warmth but not if that that thick layer isn't static, if its flapping in the wind or soaked with snow its not gonna keep you warm. Down jackets are the only way you can get the thickness with reasonable weight, but they are often have too thin of shells so they flap in the wind. Not flapping while maintaining breathability is the job of the shell which is seam sealed, whereas most down jackets are not even water proof. I know my gear is old, but my favorite jacket is down weighs about 2 and a half pounds, has an expedition type hood and high pockets in front - three ply goretex and its a guaranteed to keep you dry in extreme wet weather coat. Now I can wwwear that coat at just about any temp.
Jim S

Thank you for the response, it was very helpful. I was hoping my softshell would be very warm...that is what Mountain Hardwear claims, but now I realize what the jacket is meant for.

I like the soft shell stuff, but, since they don't have any (or very little) insulation, they aren't going to provide the type of warmth that an insulation layer would.

I like how they handle the wind and breath.

Haven't worn a hard shell lower for a few years now, either climbing or skiing. And, usually ski in a thin hardshell, but, have been climbing more and more in a soft shell. If I had a soft shell upper with a hood, I might think about using it on top more often.

I layer underneath with the thickest patagucci exp weight capilene as the heaviest layer. Ditched the pile jacket/pant stuff years ago. Primaloft garments seem much warmer for both the weight and the bulk.

The warmth that seems to come from a soft shell is they cut the wind pretty well, while still being fairly breathable. In other words, if you sweat a tad when you outside doing some activity, and its cold, a soft shell works pretty well at getting rid of the sweat while still providing a barrier to the wind.

-Brian in SLC

Well the UK is often wet and windy (similar to Seattle) so Gore-Tex/Event is more important here than in Continental Europe or the US climate; However, soft-shell works well when the rain stops, the wind-resistence making up for the reduce warmth compared with a pile jacket (you may as well be wearing a string-vest).

IMHO, the best soft-shells are snow/shower resistent pertex-outer with micro-fiber inner - they are much lighter, repellant and breatheable than Gore Windstopper garments. I also use mine over other micro-fleece layers for snowboarding. The comfort-level is much higher than thermal boarding jackets or event Gore-tex technical jackets.

The type I've tried are simply tight-weave polyester and micro-fleece - reasonable showproof but not entirely windproof. This is OK because with mountain biking and climbing, my heat-output is huge and slight air movement helps.

I'll just re-iterate - no soft-shell is a substitute for a Gore-tex shell in UK conditions.

I don't think soft shell jackets are warm at all..they seem to pick up the cold and transfer it to your body. It could warm you up a bit thinking about how much you paid for it though!

I'm not so sure that a blanket statement can be made over the entire industry of softshell manufacturers. I agree with Jim S except for the word "extremely" in reference to aerobic.

I wear a lot of softshell material, primarily for its breathability and comfort. I have the Alchemy jacket and now wear it as a work jacket. It did not breathe very well at all and did not have the features that I later found out I needed. Although not perfect, the Outdoor Research Mithril jacket is hooded and insulated.

I would seriously suggest that you try multiple softshells and find out how other people wear theirs. It gets so cold some times that hard shells freeze to a solid layer and are amazingly loud and unbreathable. That is a large reason why I wear softshells, but everyone has their own priorities...

Wore mine last weekend at 4F. Seemed to work just fine. Not an insulating layer, to be sure, but, great for moving, cutting the wind, and not having the clammy feeling when sweating. Starting to like a soft shell up top more and more.

I find goretex jackets a tad more expensive, speaking of cost.

Might it be that folks that find them cold are riding ski lifts and skiing down hill? Or, are not active in them? Curious why folks don't like them...

-Brian in SLC

That's a good question, Brian. I wore a jacket when I was a teen and thought it was cold. Turns out that I didn't layer properly (imagine that.) When I wore the Alchemy jacket, I was cold often and especially when not active. I believe that is due to a few factors, the greatest being the jacket is a tight fit and does allow much layering and that it has no hood.

In fact, few softshells have hoods. Newer models are offering this feature but it seems that a lot of softshells are middle layers "dressed up" as outer layers. I wear size Large jackets normally but my OR Mithril jacket is an XL, simply to allow for layering. It is very warm!

I'm with Brian; if anyone has an issue with softshells, please tell us why. I thing that they make dynamic clothes.

I wore my Alchemy softshell over a 300wt. fleece and a cap. 3 baselayer in 25 F weather. I however, was not moving and waiting for a shuttle. This combination did not keep me from getting very cold. Granted, If I was moving, it probably would have done a good job. What I am trying to say is that a softshell by itself really does not provide much warmth. I dont think it is fair that manufacturers call it a mid layer and an outer layer. It really is just an outer layer. My definition of a midlayer is something that insulates and provides warmth. I dont believe softshells really do that.

I hear your frustration, John. Strangely, my Alchemy feels nothing like my other soft shells. It's insulated, so I don't know why this is. I throw jackets over my Marmot ATV and the system works very well. I layer under the ATV as well. I hate to lead you on, but maybe you should check out some other jackets. Also, the addition of a hood makes a big difference in heat retention.

The soft shell category, as you've discovered, is poorly defined and over-marketed. As the soft shell concept has gained popularity, everything from thin wind shells to thick wind-proof fleece is being marketed as "soft shell." And truth be told, most of it meets the over-broad definition: material that gives up complete waterproofness for increased breathability. Even that's been stretched by some companies: Gore Soft Shell is actually a waterproof Gore-Tex membrane -- like you find in many hard shells -- coupled with a fleece facing.

Unless you're personally familiar with the particular materials or jackets, it can be very hard to judge what you're going to get based on online or catalog descriptions.

Agreed.

Materials and their construction differ greatly. Garments widen that separation by layering and sewing the fabrics differently (even between years of the same model). I now look for the name of materials like Caplene (Patagonia) or Hydrator (Hind) or even Scholler Extreme (Scholler).

I think it takes a lot of experience to figure it out...

I'm new here, so I hope no one minds if I just jump in w/a reply. I probably don't have a tenth the outdoor experience of most of you, but my experience mirrors John's: I recently purchased a Mountain Hardware Windstopper Fleece jacket, and in cold weather I have to layer it over a fleece midlayer. At first it struck me as rather odd to layer a fleece over a fleece, but the result does keep me warm.

Knowing what I know now, my next shell of any sort (hard or soft) will not be fleece, and it'll have a hood on it. Having the fleece on the outside of a jacket just doesn't seem to work well, and I really miss a hood when it gets cold and snowy and blustery.

OK i need help finding the perfect jacket for road cycling!! I am very cold natured - hate the cold but love to ride so much that I don several layers plus a jacket - then I can't breathe once I've ridden a few miles!! WHAT can I get so I can breathe and ride fast AND keep warm??
Thanks so much! =)
Dianne

I fell for the softshell hype. I bought 4 (yeap 4) diff softshells in a month. Keep taking them back. They where all pretty waterproof, all stoped wind well (to some degree), but none of them where very warm. Even hiking. I ended up w/ a Mountain Hardwear compressor. It cuts the wind but its not windproof. It stops sleet, light rain, and wet snow, But its not water proof. It breathes better then any softshell, but not as good as fleece. And its WARM, but not 'down' warm. I think it is a great compromise, and my favorite jacket! Just change your shell to suit your needs. I don't know why the Compressor is not a popular jacket. Maybe it's because it doesn't do any 1 thing great. But all around I don't think it can be beat.

I agree with the general consensus that softshells are not very warm. I bought a cheap White Sierra softshell made of neoprene, like the neoprene used to make wetsuits, with a very thin inlay of fleece. I tried a cheap version before laying some bucks down for a more expensive soft shell.

I found in 40-50F weather the softshell is fine, but in colder temps it definitely needs some type of layer such as fleece to keep me warm. I have had luck in temps below 40 to 25F using a Columbia base layer with a 1/4 zip Columbia fleece shirt inside the softshell. The combination does a good job with the wind, however, I have not dealt with snow or rain.

I generally day-hike in the Smoky Mountains at elevations 3K to 5K on average.

One major drawback in cold weather with wind was not having a hood. I would love to see manufactures offer a hood of some type to help entrap and regulate heat. This I think would help make the softshell better; however, it is not going to be a warm jacket unless it is offered with some type insulation.

I'm really surprised. I don't know exactly what to say. I've been out in -45F with Cloudveil Symmetry pants and the OR Mithril jacket. I was fine. In fact, I had the Mithril unzipped most of the way recently and it was -15F.

I wish I could give you a definitive answer about your softshell situations. I've been in cold and windy situations and been fine. How are you layering them? The Marmot Evolution and Mountain Hardwear Transition won't take a lot of insulation underneath them, but softshells like the Mithril or Loki Lore allow me to wear a lot of insulation.

Softshells are more down-to-earth than I think you think. They can be wonderful for breathability but aren't the fix-all for warmth.

mm Im designing workwear and some outer wear at the moment. I was looking at 400wt fleeces when I came across the comments about softshell.
my gut instinct is that you cant generalise because the fabric performance depends on the environment it is worn in. Soft shell is light and breathable and windproof because it is laminated. However in the cold when your activity levels are average you need a heavier fleece-you can get laminated fleeces that are less expensive and twice as warm and breathable.