Stephensons?

Hi All,
So I was recently talking to a friend (another design engineer, not outdoorsman), and he mentioned the Stephenson's Warmlite brand. I had never heard of them, but checking out their website (which reads with an amazingly arrogant tone...) I had to wonder, is it the real deal? Anybody use their stuff? Is it very well known in elite circles? Is it really as good as they say? (and should I really consider paying $750 a sleepingbag?) They make it sound like they are God's gift to mountaineering, but I've worked in outdoor retail for three years and never really run across them.

Also, I've read talk that Chaco moves to China? Is this in any way true?

Stephenson's has been around for decades. They make gear, mostly tents and sleeping bags. One of the members of our Antarctic expedition this past Dec-Jan took his Stephenson bag and was overly warm (he ended up removing one of the 3 layers). There are reviews of Stephenson tents in the Gear Reviews section of Trailspace, mostly 5-star ratings - click on "Gear Reviews" on the top line and look under tents. I'm surprised that you have worked in the outdoor industry for 3 years and never heard of them, although they don't advertise much - just small ads in outdoor magazines, their website, and their catalogs.

A lot of ultralight thru-hikers like their tents because they are light and roomy. I don't personally care that much for tunnel/hoop tents, since they aren't free-standing, but have really liked the roominess when someone in the group has taken one. A friend who took his family on the JMT used one and still raves about it several years later.

For those who haven't come across Stephenson (although their gear has been mentioned and recommended on this site many times over the years), Stephenson started the company in the 1950s or 60s (don't recall off the top of my head). He and his whole family are naturists, and are the models in the photos in the catalog and website. However, many of the photos were taken before 1980, so the people are a wee bit older now. Some people may be taken aback by the photos, but they are quite mild by today's standards on TV and the print media.

Jim S, who posts here occasionally, has one of their down air mattresses, IIRC.

Chaco, like a large fraction of the outdoor companies, has moved a lot of their manufacturing overseas.

Like Bill, I'm surprised you've never heard of Stephenson. I think of Stephenson the way people today think of Henry Shires-innovative, well-made products from a small company that doesn't cater to the mass market, and in Stephenson's case, doesn't really care how other people do it.

I've never owned one of Stephenson's bags or tents, in fact I've never even seen one in person, but I remember his catalogs from the 60's and early 70's with pictures of his kids-all naked of course, but tastefully done. Like other "true believers," Stephenson thinks his way is the best way, but he does a pretty good job of backing up his claims. The business is family owned and I don't think you'll ever see a Stephenson tent or bag made overseas just to save costs.

Stephenson tents are not for everyone because of their design and cost, but I've never heard a complaint about construction or materials. Whenever I've seen a discussion about his tents in a forum, an owner or two will usually show up with a rave review of them. I've seen them for sale occasionally on eBay or other forums, but even used, they aren't cheap.

Just as an aside, there are a lot of "cottage industry" gear manufacturers who make and sell gear you will never see in a store, especially a chain store. This doesn't mean they haven't been around for years, like Stephenson (who's been in business since 1956) or don't make quality gear. Most cannot make enough product to supply a chain like REI, even if they wanted to, because they don't have the capital to tool up on a large scale. Resorting to overseas manufacturers isn't always a satisfactory alternative and many of the smaller makers don't want to ship jobs overseas on principle.

Much of the cutting edge lighweight gear is made by small companies such as Tarptent (Henry Shires), Six Moon Design, ULA, Oware and others. Even better known brands like Feathered Friends and Western Mountaineering (generally recognized as two of the best bag makers) aren't found in big stores.

The web has enabled these little companies to become known, even if most people, like me, have never seen their products in person. In the old days (pre-Internet), little companies would run small ads in Backpacker, send catalogs, and depend on word of mouth. Most of the little companies I am aware of, I learned about by doing Yahoo or Google searches or reading about them in an online forum like this one. If they can afford it, I bet many of them go to the big outdoor gear shows-I think Bill would know about this-to show their wares to store owners who attend.

Henry Shires is a great example of a small manufacturer you root for even if you don't own one of his tents. On The Lightweight Backpacker, another site I belong to that has forums, Henry shows up regularly to answer questions about his tents, talk about upcoming models or help with problems. Who else do you know who does that?

Contrast that with all the posts you see here from people looking for instructions or parts for tents they bought from Wal-Mart because they can't get any help from the retailer. Big difference.

This is stretching my memory a bit but I bought one of his bags in the mid-60's. I think he was in the San Fernando Valley in the L.A., CA area where I lived and he worked out of his house.

It was a good bag - ahead of it's time. Had a foam pad on the bottom. Hmmmm...... I wonder what happened to it???

You've already received a lot of good info here, but I wanted to add that we have some user reviews for Stephenson's Warmlite: http://www.trailspace.com/gear/stephenson%27s-warmlite/

I'm stressing the limits of my (failing and fading) memory - but I believe that a guy in my scout troop had a Stephenson's tent and warmlite sleeping bag with a pad pocket - (his father was a corporate attorney - this kid always had "gear to drool for") when we went to Philmont. As I recall it was very nice equipment - (if it'd been allowed his dad would have probably hired a personal sherpa for the kid so he wouldn't have had to carry his gear) .....anyhow ....if I'm not mistaken Stephenson's was one of the first (if not the first) to incorporate a vapor barrier inside a sleeping bag so you'd have your own little "micro-climate" - maintain near 100% humidity near your skin - or maybe that was his garments that were vapor barriers - the idea being that your insulation didn't get damp from respiration and sweat - hence it maintained it's loft and you stayed warm.
I THINK that for this reason his tents tended to be single walled affairs made of waterproof (non-breating) material -
his catalogs were - um - interesting thirty-odd years ago!

Steve

RidgeHiker - Stephenson's has always been in New England. You might be thinking about Sport Chalet, which in the 1960s was a small shop at the foot of Angeles Crest Highway in La Canada (San Fernando Valley, far east end), and is now a fairly large California chain. Or you might be thinking of Kelty, which at that time was still owned by Dick Kelty, who lived in Glendale and had the manufacturing in the San Fernando Valley. He sold out in the late 1970s, I think, and Kelty has changed hands several times since then from one conglomerate to another.

SteveTF - Stephenson's was one of the earliest champions of the VBL approach. His 3-layer bag is VBL. Brooke, the member of our Antarctic group who had the Stephenson's bag, ended up removing the VBL, mostly because it was too warm. The tents are waterproof, not because of the VBL idea (doesn't really work for a tent), but because they are single-wall and the outside of a tent has to be waterproof if it is to be used where there is rain - either a fly for double-wall tents or the shell itself for single-wall. VBL works for sleeping bags and socks because the high-humidity microclimate is very close to your skin, where in a tent, you just get condensation or frost on the shell. Stephenson also promoted VBL suits, as you note. It works for some people, but not others. I find a VBL liner in a sleeping bag works well, as do socks, when used in cold enough conditions. But I have found that VBL suits just get very wet inside for me. Oh, and Stephenson was a big promoter of sleeping in the sleeping bag with nothing on. First problem with that on long trips is that the bag just gets dirty faster than if you use pajamas or long johns from all your body oils and perspiration and sweat. Second thing is that dry clothes do provide some extra insulation (climbing into the bag with wet or dirty clothes can make the bag seem colder), although clothes can twist around and feel very uncomfortable in the bag.

Bill -

Hey - my memory hasn't gotten as bad as I'd thought it had!
I tried the VBL sock idea some years back - got a couple of nifty blisters and decided it wasn't for me - perhaps it works for others (obviously for those who promote it - or so we'd hope!) -
I have used a coated nylon bivy sack INSIDE my sleeping bag before - which is pretty much a VBL - I felt warmer - but have no empirical data to support that.
As the majority of the water vapor that leaves your body during the night is from respiration my contention that a VBL would help in a coated, single wall tent was, in my opinion, a stupid thing to say .... I will now meander shame faced back to the data analysis tasks ...for which I am compensated.....

Steve said "...a stupid thing to say .... I will now meander shame faced back to..."

And well yu shud. Yu ned tu lrn to never mek mistesk lak mi. I mean, I never make mistaks. Er sumtin lak dat. OTOH, I have no shame.

I don't know, I never thought the idea of wearing a plastic bag, or sleeping in one, was such a great idea. I understand the premise, but maybe I've just not been in cold enough weather for it to make sense. Then again, Jack does have a way of making his gear look really appealing-hehehe.

As I understand VBL's in a sleeping bag - it'd only really work if you were naked - otherwise you'd have to soak whatever you were wearing before you'd reach 100% humidity in your "micro-climate" (and therefore not perspire any more).
My personal experiment was done under very bad conditions - I'd managed to get totally soaked and a tad hypothermic - so I was willing to try damn near anything to get warm. I had my bivy sack inside my sleeping bag and a tarp/groundsheet over it (my sopping wet clothes were hanging from a line inside my tarp and I didn't fancy having them drip on my sleeping bag all night) - I suppose I could have wrapped myself in the tarp BUT only one side of IT was dry at the time. The coated nylon was also somewhat more appealing than plastic - and - being hypothermic may have had an impact on my judgement. It worked - however - only in so far as "warm and clammy" is superior to "freezing your tush off" - I really can't say I'd want to sleep that way every night on an extended trip BUT I also have to admit I haven't given it a shot (haven't tried to drill through my head either ...).

Tom -

Jack Stephenson's son William is running the company these days. Same philosophy as Jack, according to his note on the website, and pretty much the same line of products (stick with a winner approach)

Bill, I saw that. Their stuff looks pretty much the same as it did years ago. Except the naked kids modeling the sleeping bags are all grown up now.

Steve-I think the idea is that the VBL works in really cold, dry weather. I've read that you should wear a thin layer-silk or Capilene or something like that, then the VBL shirt or socks, then your insulating layer. I just don't find the idea of being clammy very appealing. I don't sweat all that much so maybe that's the difference. Plus I don't go out in super cold weather.

Considering that they're naturalists the idea of a VBL seems a contrarian idea, does it not? Sort of like Kosher crab (!) - anyhow -

Their equipment does look to be top quality stuff - always did - they probably wouldn't agree with my philosophy of wearing clothes and sweating like a pig when its hot and humid out (can't help it - it's just my nature) - being naked may be fun - but now when your state plant is posion ivy!

I have run into a couple "naturalist" hikers on the trail over the years - which begged the question - why is it that people who feel the desire to run around naked are the ones who, for the sake of decorum and taste, really should be wearing clothes?

Have fun

Steve

"naturist", not "naturalist". A naturalist is a scientist who studies plants, animals, and ecology. A naturist is someone who runs around with only his/her skin for an outer covering. I got lectured on this by a guy at a summer job I had during college days. He spent a lot of time trying to convince everyone else at work to join him on weekends at the local naturist camp.

Anyway, yes, VBL works best in cold weather, which is where I use the VBL liner in my sleeping bag, and the VBL socks get worn in my double boots and tele boots on expeditions and backcountry ski tours.

I agree that a large percentage of the population should be wearing those robes that Arab royalty and Muslim women have to wear, or the old Hawaiin muu-muus. And even that would not be enough for some. They certainly should not be letting it all "hang out". Some of us, though, keep thoroughly covered for other reasons - I have to make regular visits to the dermatologist to get skin sections removed, thanks to too many "healthy tans" in my youth. So I now wear hats, long sleeves, and long pants, plus use gallons of SPF 50 sunblock to slow the progression down.

This is sure getting way off the original topic.

dangit - that's one stupid statement AND one vocab mistake in a single thread - I need a vacation! Back to the original question (I think!) - Stephensons stuff is very high quality - if it fits your budget and techniques / needs - go for it.

The link below goes to a site with an article on Warmlite. They speak of the operations being in Woodland Hills, CA before moving to the Northeast.

http://www.oregonphotos.com/Warmlite1.html

Stephensons tents aren't well-regarded in mountaineering circles, but they do seem fine for anything aside from true winter alpine. I find the company's happy talk obnoxious condescending, and not believable, and for this reason alone would rule them out.

I've used sleeping bag VBLs (mostly garbage bags and duct tape; not Stephensons) on three cold winter nights and two nights that were in the 40s. They seemed effective, only a tad uncomfortable, and I dropped the idea.

I've used VBL socks on five occassions in sub-zero cold, and found them extremely effective.

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calamity said "Stephensons tents aren't well-regarded in mountaineering circles,"

Hmmm, as a mountaineer of many decades and spending a lot of time hanging out with other climbers, I would have to disagree with that. Stephenson's tents have been used with great success in many mountaineering venues, including the Himalaya and elsewhere. The "problem" with them is that they are tunnel/hoop design which is not self-supporting (have to be staked out) and thus generally not favored for mountaineering. In Antarctica last Dec-Jan, we were supplied with a Kelty tent of a very similar design (except with a fly) by our logistics company. These tents were a serious problem to set up, although really excellent once erected, even in the 50-70 knot winds we had on occasion. Generally tunnel tents, though roomy, do not stand up as well to heavy snow loads as geodesic dome designs with a network of poles - exchange weight and snow support. OTOH, even the multi-pole tents that are supposedly self-supporting require staking and guying if there is any wind and for heavy snow loads. In February, I pitched my Trango 3.1 with only floor staking during 3 days of heavy snowfall (really heavy wet snow), and found it tended to sag in from the sides without the guy lines - the Trango 3.1 is one of the top expedition tents, which I have used successfully on Denali during week-long storms, which do feature 50++ knot winds. I have also used the TNF VE25 in the Alaska range, and some expeditions do use tunnel/hoop tents up there.

Again, the big reasons why Stephensons and other tunnel/hoop tents are not popular (which is not the same as saying not used at all) for expeditions is (1) they aren't free-standing and hence are harder to pitch, especially in windy conditions, (2) Stephensons is a small company and does not offer pro deals to their "sponsored athletes" (I don't think they have any sponsored athletes), unlike the big companies like TNF, Mountain Hardwear, Sierra Designs, etc, which means (3) their tents are not as "fashionable" for expeditions. Along with (2), the big companies give a good price break to guide services buying dozens of tents each year, which Stephensons, being a small company, can't afford to do. I have some familiarity with the economic side, since as a Council Climbing Director for a Scout council, I get to see the purchase decisions on tents and other gear for our summer and High Adventure programs. We get tents and other gear on the basis of (1)it stands up to the hard use by the youth, (2) suitability for the program (hence backpacking tents, not expedition tents), and (3) price - small companies just don't give bulk prices. Number (1) is why we don't get Wentzel tents - they don't stand up for a full season of use by the youth, where Eureka and REI tents, for example, often last 2 or 3 seasons (Philmont Scout Ranch, which runs tens of thousands of scouts through during the 12 week summer program, uses mostly Eureka tents, which is not an endorsement, since if someone comes along with quality tents at a good price, they will switch). Stephenson tents are just too expensive for mass purchases when we can get suitable Eureka and REI tents for $100-150. A lot heavier, true, but the backpack trips aren't that long and it doesn't hurt the boys and girls on the short hikes they typically take (yes, BSA is fully coed for the Venture and Explorer programs, which is the age 14 and up group).

As far as hoop tents, Hilleberg brand currently has a moderately good reputation among climbers, but not Stephenson, mostly for the many reasons you describe, but also, apparently, for its poor wind resistance and all-round fragility. I'm sure Stephensons tents are very good for backpacking, but perhaps a poor value for that distinct purpose, and their marketing is utter clap-trap.

I wouldn't particularly recommend Kelty, REI nor Eureka tents for any purpose, though I've only owned a 1983 Eureka four-pole dome and a 1971 REI cotton single-wall puptent with nylon floor that drastically tapered in height and widdth toward the rear, and would now be a museum piece.
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calamity wrote: "I wouldn't particularly recommend Kelty, REI nor Eureka tents for any purpose"

- interesting - as I own both (!) - yeah - I'm a tarp guy BUT I've owned a Eureka timberline 2 man for well over 20 years now - (it was our honeymoon suite when we first got married) - still have the wife - still have the tent (although the wife has held up better than both the tent and I!) - it's survived the howling winds of winter, baking heat and humidity of summer and everything in between ('cause Deb isn't a tarp fan like I am) - without a whimper.

As for Kelty - I won a one man Kelty (cannot recall the name) - while a bit claustrophobic for a large human being like myself - it seems well made and well designed, is easy to pitch and (were I a tent guy) would be ideal for my lonely ramblings.

I fail to understand why you'd discount Eureka - their tents seem to be well designed and - with moderate care - are quite durable. State of the art? Perhaps not - but then again - neither am I!

Steve

I've owned and used many Eureka tents over the years and have been quite happy with them. They are not the lighest tents on the market, but are generally a very good value. You can't compare Eureka to Hilleberg, but for the money you spend on Eureka tent it will keep the weather and bugs out and last many years if cared for properly.

calamity,
You said "Hilleberg brand currently has a moderately good reputation among climbers, but not Stephenson, mostly for the many reasons you describe"

I would say Hilleberg has more than a "moderately good reputation" (I know Bo Hilleberg, very interesting, if a bit eccentric by most people's standards, but a man much to my liking - being a bit of an eccentric myself). But I guess I have to ask what you mean by "reputation". It sounds like you are talking about popularity. To me, reputation has more to do with suitability for the purpose. The reasons I gave for Stephensons tents not being much used for mountaineering have mostly to do with why they aren't bought more (small company, so no pro deals, mass discounts, high cost), plus the general preference for geodesic pole layouts and avoidance of hoop tents. Bo's tents work well for ski touring (he is an avid ski mountaineer himself and tests all his tent designs and ideas on week-long, midwinter tours in Lapland), but they have many of the deficiencies of hoop tents generally in storm conditions. I would disagree about the fragility question and wind resistance (properly guyed hoop tents are quite good at shedding wind, including Stephensons). Jack Stephenson was very eccentric, and his son is as well, but their sales talk is no more "claptrap" than any of the other companies. As has been discussed on this site many times before, a number of the major companies put out advertising that is, to say the least, misleading hype. At least Stephensons believes in what they say, and for good reason. Just to take VBL for which the whole Stephenson clan are "true believers", it works for some people, for some people for socks, for some people for socks and sleeping bag liners, and not at all for some people. Some people are vegan, some are ovo-lacto vegetarian, others are carnivores - which does not make any of the discussions of those diets "claptrap" - they work for some and not for others, and some people don't like killing any animal for their flesh.

You also said "I wouldn't particularly recommend Kelty, REI nor Eureka tents for any purpose,"

Condemning these companies' tents "for any purpose" is rather a broad statement. Since all 3 sell lots of tents and there are lots of people happy with them, again, different people have different needs (perceived or real). For the purposes of youth groups (not just Scouts), certain Eureka tents work extremely well, as do some REI tents. But not all tents from any given company work well for all purposes or for all people. We have a dozen tents in our household, each of which works well for some activities, each of which works very poorly for other activities. Even my 43 year old Jamet that I bought for $16 in Chamonix worked very well for its purposes (haven't pitched it in years, even to see what condition it is in). And the 160 peso tent that Andres and I got for a shelter when we hiked La Malinche worked adequately (his good tents were with a couple of his guides who were taking clients up Orizaba - the little tent went to his 5 y.o. nephew, and we grabbed one of the good TNF tents for our later climbs when we caught up with his guides).

There are some tents I would strongly advise people against buying - tents from mass market big box stores that often come without setup instructions, for example.

I agree with Steve and Bill about making sweeping generalities,especially when the person making them admits they don't know much about the products they are criticizing-that reduces their credibility pretty far for me. Unless you have used all of the products or know someone who has, how can you criticize them based on a 20 or 30 year old product?

For example, mid 1970's Harley Davidsons were absolutely wretched-I know this for a fact because I used to sell them-pretty much every one we unpacked had problems right out of the crate. From what I understand, things are different now-different owners, etc. and quality control is much better. My point being, you can't compare those old Harleys with the new ones.

I've never owned a Eureka tent, but every time I see a question come up about them, Boy Scout leaders praise them for durability and price-exactly what a non-profit is looking for in something like camping gear that will be used by kids over and over.

As far as REI goes, their gear may not be cutting edge, but most of it isn't made for climbers or extreme weather campers-it's for the average backpacker who goes out in moderate weather a few times a year. It is hard to fault a company that will take back and replace almost anything, no matter how beat it is.

Kelty's been around for years. I'm pretty sure the company has changed hands a few times and maybe the gear isn't top of the line, but I read good things about various Kelty gear as well-I have a Kelty pack I like.

BTW, it's Marmot, not Marmont.

There has been much speculation about the suitability of tunnel tents (Hilleberg and Stephensons) in mountain areas. A number of people in my bushwalking /skiing club Australia have recently discovered the Hilleberg brand. Three tunnel tents (2 x Nallo2 and the Kaitum) recently weathered 135 KPH (80 mph) winds measured on my weather station in the Snowy Mountains. The tents were pitched in a a very broad & open alpine meadow with no rock or tree for protection when the storm came through. One was hit sideways, the other two were almost end on to the wind. Apart from the monstrous noise, the tents survived the night without any damage. Earlier in our winter, The Kaitum easily handled the 40cm heavy snow fall (powder snow only happens once every few years in our mountains).

Tunnel tents are nothing new. Various companies have made them for many years and many models were suitable for alpine and four season use. In the US tunnels have been out of fashion for some years with many people opting for free standing tents as Bill has mentioned. With Hilleberg coming onto the scene in the US in recent years, they are beginning to become poular again in the states.

In years past alpine/4 season tunnel tents were made by Marmot, Early Winters, The North Face (they reintroduced the Westwind due to popular demand), Eureka, and Cannondale (I have two and they are excellent). I'm sure there were many more, those are the ones coming to mind.

Bill & Tom:
You are right that I am overly opinionated, but using a product is not always necessary in forming a valid opinion.

I'm not saying these various tents don't work as advertised; merely that I wouldn't recommend them (based on various mixtures of weight, cost, design and personal experience & whim, as well as available alternatives).

Finally, I don't entirely like any backpacking tent and have trouble deciding whether they are a necessary or unnecessary evil.

(BTW in my Stephensons comments, the conventional definition of reputation applies.)
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calamity -

Of course, everyone has his/her own opinions on tents based on all sorts of rational and irrational considerations. But realizing this carries the obligation to distinguish between the rational and irrational when making a recommendation to someone as to which tent is suitable/unsuitable for their particular purpose. You commented that "I don't entirely like any backpacking tent." Well, obviously, since no tent is suitable for all purposes and all conditions, no single tent is the perfect tent for anything and everything. That's why, for example, we have a dozen (or more) tents in our household - single person summer, single person expedition, 2 person summer and expedition, 3 person expedition, car camping (sold the tent that fit our VW Kampwagen a couple years back, so don't have that one any longer), "period correct" tent for our participation in historical re-enactments. Some of these work for backpacking, some don't. Some are good for a short summer backpack but not winter in blizzards, some are good for full-on storm conditions in the Arctic Range but way overkill for a summer weekend climbing trip to Yosemite Valley.

There is a difference in quality among different brands, with the big break being between the mass-market Big Box store types and the quality tents intended for serious outdoor use, plus some that fall in between and are suitable for casual couple times a year use.

There are valid reasons, albeit based on emotion, for choosing between a tarp tent and a fully enclosed tent with floor - some people like the protection from creepy crawly things, even when in locations and at seasons when such critters are not out and about. Some people like more room in their tent, while others are just fine in a bivy sack.

But there are the less valid reasons - some manufacturers have weird colors (at the OR Show a couple years ago, I stopped by a sock manufacturer's booth to see if there was anything new, and got a long discussion of the latest colors - hey, the sock is inside the boot, who cares about the color of the socks when nobody can see them?). On the other hand, color in some items can make a significant difference - for most uses, the color of a tent should be one that blends in with the surroundings to reduce the visual impact (Leave No Trace principles, in other words). But for expeditions, where it is important to have a highly visible tent for finding your way back after a day of exhausting climbing or possibly for S&R if you are reported overdue, International Orange or yellow are the better choice, along with reflective strips for a night-time return.

The main thing here is to help people with pointing out the criteria that are most likely to affect their outdoor experience - fit for boots and packs, weight for anything you have to carry on your back, performance of a stove at altitude or in extreme cold, durability under the conditions to be encountered (different for the occasional, casual hiker than for the expedition climber or thru-hiker), and so on. Thus, in the present thread, a hoop/tunnel tent is suitable for some applications and not others, while a geodesic is suitable for other applications. the OP got responses about Stephensons tents from people familiar with them in various applications, including expedition use - familiarity in actual use, whether personal or witnessed in person, is more valuable than hearsay.

"That's why, for example, we have a dozen (or more) tents in our household"

Bill, I always feel much more normal after reading your posts (I think I'm only up to 9 tents).

I think we've exposed a nerve here, folks. Opinions are dandy - and for the average backpacker, especially in the summertime, the only real issue to emerge from a bad choice will be either getting a bit damp or bug-bitten (taking a tarp into a swampy area, for example) or having a sore back and legs (lugging a TNF VE25 for a solo AT hike).
In either case, however, emperical evidence and a working knowledge of the equipment in question would leave one with a far more satisfactory experience than an emotional or opinion based selection.
When the terrain/weather/conditions get a bit more serious (going above tree line, heading out into really wet, rotten weather, heading towards either pole) then the selection of gear becomes far more critical. A suspension failure on the AT in Pennsylvania is an inconvenience, well above tree line it can lead to a tragedy.
To imply that you don't need to see/touch/use any piece of equipment before forming a generalized opinion on its use is foolish, but not uncommon.
You guys got me thinking about my personal tent inventory - while I'm not at Bills level - it goes like this:

Two room (9*15) car camping tent - GREAT for family trips to the shore - weighing somewhere around 70 lbs and having the aerodynamic qualities of a shoebox - not ideal for backpacking or bad weather. The foot print is also a bit large for LNT ...

Campmore Dome tent (10') - for car camping when the wife and I leave the kiddies at home - also works well for canoe camping. I could lug it on my back - but I'd be far from happy at the end of the day.

Eureka Timberline 2 man - lovely backpacking tent - has withstood pretty fair snow loads and quite a bit of wind - rather long in the tooth now for 'serious' use - but I don't have the 'freedom' to get as serious as I used to - the tent of choice when the wife and I are backpacking - or when I'm taking the kids.

Kelty one man (cannot recall the name) - should be a nice tent if I ever get over my fear of small spaces .... funny how a snow cave doesn't bother me but that tent does.

Coated 10*10 nylon tarp - my shelter of choice for 90% of my (below tree line) backpacking - I use a mosquito net bag over my head when the bugs are out - for the most part I try to select an airy campsite and avoid the bugs ....

8*8 tyvec tarp - when there may be rain but I want to go really light (and there's zero chance of snow) this works just fine. Elegant? No. Light and cheap? You betcha! Once it gets a couple holes in it it becomes a ground sheet or is cut down to be a tent footprint for the timberline ...

Nothing - when the weather is fine there's NOTHING better than sleeping under the stars (IMHO)

Each has its uses and limitations -

Your opinion and mileage may vary -

Steve

I am overly opinionated yes, but "without evidence or research" is a bit harsh, so along those lines, allow me to suggest (HARUMPH) that if one owns a half-dozen tents, and yet is unable to form a reasonable opinion about other tents without actually using them, then it's possible one's analytical ability is in some way impaired.

Similar to yourself, I've owned far too many backpacking tents over the years, each a different brand, and you might suppose that in the mean time I've slept in many others. I've never used a Stephensons, but an acquaintance bought one, and I've seen them in use twice in the typical, benign, alpine summer weather of the N Cascades.

I'm a decade long owner of a Stephenson 2R. I've used it in heavy continuous rain at all altitudes, snow at high altitudes, high winds, long layovers and have carried it many, many miles.

It sets up faster than any other tent (other than pop ups) in combined camps. It strikes as quickly. I've set it up in howling gales and snow storms with little hitch.

It tightens to take up wind slack from inside the tent. Only have to freeze an exposed hand rather than an entire body.

I've been kept awake all night at high altitude with other expedition tents that were drumming and flapping in the wind. No noise from mine.

I find it mountaineering worthy.

It is not a klutz's tent. Once set up and staked down it is very forgiving. You just don't want to step on a pole. Damaged parts are replaceable and unless completely destroyed repairable.

It packs in a package about the size of two wine bottles punt to cork. Weighs less than 2.5 pounds fully fitted out.

There is, at times, a condensation problem, but no more than any other single ply tent. I just wipe the inside, if it is not frozen, with a towel. It is usually a venting problem - sleeping bag blocking the bottom intake. The 3R is more amenable to venting.

It is gloriously large for a solo - it is lighter than many bivys. It is large enough for winter comfort for two including large bags and other gear that needs to be stored inside.

For long excursions with two people where you may have to hunker down for awhile, I'd suggest the 3R. It is a bit heavier (another pound perhaps), has two openings so you are disturbing a sleeping partner, and has a better cross bracing for the mightest of winds. I have had not wind problems with the 2R so long as it doesn't change 180 degrees once it is set up and the snow barriers errected.

The 3R gives more head room than the 2R so makes a couple of days in the tent a bit more bearable.

For the other three (or two seasons), I use trek poles for staking down. I also have the large barn windows that can be opened out and used even during a rain. It has a good awning control using trek poles to tie them out.

It has slept (well, that is an exaggeration) 4 over a two day period.

No rips, tears or worn spots that I can determine. It no longer looks new and I have had to replace two sections of the poles (klutz factor).

Customer support is as you might hope to expect. So long as you don't have to have long conversations with Jack Sr about suggested design changes (don't) you will find the company is out to make you happy with their product.

Yeah, I like it. So does everybody I know who has one.

What are you going to say after you plunk down > $500, eh?

"Yeah, I like it. So does everybody I know who has one.

What are you going to say after you plunk down > $500, eh?"

Funny - it's rare to run into a mercedes or porsche owner who complains about their purchase either! Seriously - sounds like you're a real spokesman for the gear!

Calamity - sorry if you took personal offense to what I wrote - I don't believe I used any names in my posting - funny how you'd assume I meant you - ;=)

See ya'all somewhere on the trail

Steve

calamity, I'm not sure who in particular you are refering to, or maybe everyone who differed in some way with your comment that "if one owns a half-dozen tents, and yet is unable to form a reasonable opinion about other tents without actually using them," but it is very easy to form opinions. The question here is holding rigid, non-modifiable opinions despite what might be learned by further input. There are a lot of biases running around out there. You will see statements like "single-wall tents always have excessive condensation" and "tents with flies never get condensation" as arguments for getting tents with flies (in practice, based on my personal 6+ decades of both types, neither statement is true as they stand - substitute the words "under some circumstances" for "always" and "never" and there is some truth to them).

A number of the regular contributers here have a lot of experience with a wide range of tents in a wide range of conditions, and indeed can (and do) make judgments and recommendations on tents when people ask for them. But there are so many tents and manufacturers out there that the comments are generally offered with the caveat that they are based on general considerations and manufacturer specs in cases where personal experience is lacking, or where there is experience with a sample of 1 or 2.

Companies change, both because they learn by experience and customer feedback (or else go out of business) and because many of them eventually get taken over. Gerry and Holubar were mentioned in this thread as examples of the take-over phenomenon - neither exists as an outdoor company anymore, although both were very innovative (Gerry Cunningham, for example, invented the CordLock that we all have on so many of our drawstrings for stuff sacks and jackets). Stephensons is one of the few companies that has remained independent, despite being small. Chouinard's Patagonia (the clothing spinoff when his climbing group Great Pacific Ironworks had its liability problems) went big, while staying independent, but has managed to retain their strong environmental stance (we may joke about "Patagucci", but they do make excellent gear).

If you go back through the forums here, you will see that many of us have offered recommendations for gear that we personally do not use. As an example, I suggest people look at Gregory packs, although I can't get a good fit in one. I like Osprey, Dana, and Lowe Alpine packs because I can get a good fit with them, and they work well for my uses, but they aren't suitable for many others (I am hesitant about Dana these days, under their new ownership and the changes they are instituting). In expedition tents, I have used TNF VE25, VE24, and other models, but never owned a TNF tent because there are other similar tents I find work better for me. Yet, as you scan through the forums, you will find I put TNF tents among the best choices. I do not own any tunnel/hoop tents because I find them a problem to set up, although I really like their roominess and light weight for the size (I liked the roominess and wind-shedding of the Kelty Windfoil 3 I used in Antarctica in December, but it was extremely difficult to set up in windy conditions). I haven't owned a Stephensons tent, but have camped with people who did, some in winter expedition conditions. I was always impressed with the quality and roominess. A friend and his family used one for their thruhike of the JMT and found it was excellent for that purpose.

Steve, alan, chris, and Tom have long provided valuable insights on gear here, based on experience and plenty of evidence and research. Dave and Alicia, owners of Trailspace, not only bring lots of experience, but actively examine and research the gear. None of them has used every tent in existence (that's impossible, though Dave and Alicia seem to have examined and handled a major fraction of the backpacking tents currently in existence), yet each has offered well-reasoned advice and commentary. They provide good examples to follow when discussing gear. Note well that the commentaries stick to the merits of the gear itself. Yes, there are valid reasons to be concerned about where and under what conditions gear is made. But the first consideration is whether it works for the purpose intended.

Bill wrote:
"Yes, there are valid reasons to be concerned about where and under what conditions gear is made. But the first consideration is whether it works for the purpose intended"

The purpose intended is critical - having suffered a tent failure under winter conditions well above tree line I'm happy to tell you that it's no fun to try and dig a snowcave in the middle of the night with the wind howling and the snow blowing like mad. That night was a lot of years ago - but I still have limited sensations in my little toes to remind me of messing with mother nature. Knowing how to dig a snowcave probably saved my life. Not going up when the conditions were bad would have saved the whole miserable experience. And my tent!

Given a choice I'll always try to purchase products made by environmentally and socially responsible companies who treat their labor forces with respect. These products tend to be of higher quality and will last longer, lessening their ultimate impact on the environment. I do wrestle with myself over my use of Tyvec - but justify it (at least to myself) by using only scrap tyvec given to me by contractor friends - it would have ended up in a landfill if I didn't use it. I put it in a recycling bin when it's useful life is over. Yep - I'm one of "them" .... ;=)

. Ladies and gentlemen, members of the board, and honored guests.....tonight, it is with great pleasure, that I may note, humbly, and with great decrepitude, the long and honored tradition of Trailspace, and the many years of experience, hard won and hard fought, on the hills, on the sea, here and in lands that are far from hear, amongst the mountains high and the winds sharp, and with good men and women all, equipped with the best, often, and honest, simple courage, and fortitude, and I remember near the finest hour, we could say, thanks to those who knew, who came to answer the call, with their years, nay, decades and even centuries will come and go, and we shall say, that it was the long, and the honorable, that was known, before it was fashionable and before those that hadn't yet learned, nor even imagined, that the hard-won, weatherbeaten mountains high, and the sharp winds will teach, crapulence, while that here in the lands and there higher still, they had known.... that in simplicity, and honesty there is the real truth and greatest good to be found...And Stephenson tents are way overpriced and their marketing has a long & storied history of condescending to its customers.

"And Stephenson tents are way overpriced and their marketing has a long & storied history of condescending to its customers."

Hmm, what can I say? "Overpriced" is in the eye of the beholder. I see a lot of gear that seems overpriced to me. Maybe that's just because I can't afford it. Remember, the value of something is what someone is willing to pay for it. Stephenson has been around for a long time. Condescending or not, there must be something to what they make, otherwise, a little company like that would have folded a long time ago.

As Yogi Berra once said, "If the people don't want to come out to the ballpark, nobody's going to stop them "

I can see where you say Stephensons come across as condescending. As far as overpriced? Everything to me is overpriced, but then again I am frugal, some would call it cheap. I drive a 1993 car with 204,000 miles and today I'm wearing khakis and a shirt that I bought at a thrift store. I can afford a Stephenson's tent and I'm certain I would like the tent, I'm just far too frugal to buy one.

Prices for Stephenson's tents are $500-$800. Most Hilleberg tents fall into the same price range. The North Face expedition tents fall into the same price range. I'm certain other brands fall into the same range.

Much as Tom D said, value, much like beauty - in the eye of the beholder - one persons perfect line on a rockface may be an abomination to another (as Batso Harding's "wall of the early morning light" on El Cap was to Royal Robbins).
Perhaps if Royal had been inspired to attack that wall before Batso his opinion may have changed.

A TNF VE25, Hillenberg, Stephensons or other "high end" tent may seem overpriced - indeed - they very well may be - but if you're ever caught above tree line in a serious storm - as your less expensive tent (still well reviewed and recommended) is shredding and you're facing the grim prospect of digging a snow cave in the dark, at that very moment a better engineered, more suitable (for conditions) and doubtless more expensive tent suddenly looks like the worlds greatest bargain.

It all comes down to selecting equipment suited to the environment in which you're going to be operating. This situational awareness typically comes through experience - some hard earned (trial by fire, if you will), some through education (listening to others familiar with the conditions, reading accounts, checking weather tables, those sorts of things).

What I've seen, over the past 38 years of backpacking, climbing and other outdoor activites, is the most miserable people tend to be the ones who take a firm set on an idea and adhere to it - without reservation or consideration - to what's going on around them. The ability to learn, consider and adapt is often the difference between a miserable ordeal and an enjoyable (if somewhat physically uncomfortable) experience ...(see above snowcave comments).

Your mileage and opinion may differ, no waranty stated or implied, and, as an American, I'll defend anyones legal right to be wrong! ;=)

Bottom line was, I just didn't like the weight of other tents. Amortized over the miles I've lugged the Stephensons 2R its getting close to pennies an hour. For that I'll save a few pounds.

maybe trade those pounds up to a good cognac... :)

@ $$ per hour.

I have a friend who at 5' and 100 pounds is willing to pay considerable per ounce of weight saving. She is a long haul camper who is out every weekend for 30 miles or more.

Speaking of condescending, calamity said "Ladies and gentlemen, members of the board, and honored guests.....tonight, it is with great pleasure, that I may note, humbly, and with great decrepitude, the long and honored tradition of Trailspace, and the many years of experience, hard won and hard fought, on the hills, on the sea, here and in lands that are far from hear, amongst the mountains high and the winds sharp, and with good men and women all, equipped with the best, often, and honest, simple courage, and fortitude, and I remember near the finest hour, we could say, thanks to those who knew,....."

As my mountain man buddies would say - "and your point is?"

"Overpriced", as stated by several other responders, is very much in the eye of the customer. For example, I cannot afford a $50 tent that falls apart in 2 or 3 outings or that fails to stand up to a moderate rainstorm, 20 mph winds, or a modest snowfall. I can afford an $800 tent that will stand up to the kind of weather that I often camp in for several weeks at a time. I cannot afford a $15 camera that fails to download its images to the computer (I got such a thing, when looking for a small camera for sticking in a pocket when out on a climb - big mistake), but I can afford a $2000 camera that is rugged enough to stand up to the hard use to which I put cameras, works without fail at temperatures of -40, and produces high resolution images.

It isn't the price, it is what you get for the money. For me, the requirement is that the item must stand up to the conditions under which I will use it and produce the results I am looking for. Sometimes the item that fits my criteria best is the most expensive, sometimes it is in the lower end of the price range.

calamity, I have a suggestion. At this point, we all know that you have a dislike for Stephensons, though it isn't clear to me whether it is the company or the products (you did state earlier that you have no direct personal experience with their products). So how about posting some comments about products you *do* like and why you like them? What are your experiences with those products you have used and liked, and specifically what the aspects of those products are that you look on favorably?

Bill -

I hate to come across like a green (well, maybe I relish coming across like a green when you get right down to it) - anyhow - shoddy equipment becomes landfill fodder at a much higher rate than quality equipment - so we can actually expand your value calculus. (yes, it does piss me off that the Sierra Club gives welcome gifts made of synthetic fibers - manufactured overseas - in countries that do not have strong environmental or labor laws).

And Calamity - I have another suggestion - have you joined yet? Membership gives one a wonderful, warm glow.

As for the grand high mystic poo-bah stuff - well - I don't really pay attention to that kinda stuff -

My point most recently above was an experiment to see how well Stephensons can stand up to very windy posts..BTW, if I were about to start a tough hike and had a dozen of the best tent designs in front of me and free for the taking, I might choose Stephensons due to weight. But my latest purchase, about nine months ago, was a Golight Hex.

Here are a few interesting comments on Stephenson culled from CascadeClimber.com

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I talked to Mr Stephenson about his tents. My issue was the fact you had to know which way was going to be blowing from or it made for a tough night of sleeping.
He said Americans didn't know a damn thing about aerodymaics. Snow walls are a ridiculous concept and you should never have snow walls around a Stephenson.
I told him that you might not have snow walls when you pitch your tent, but it snows in the mountains. That requires you to shovel it away from the tent and your end up with snow around your tent.
He said you just move your tent every once in a while.

So you move the tent when the wind changes directions and when it snows.
Yeah, when the wind is gusting bad enough the tent is sagging on the sides and it is snowing, I really want to empty my tent and move it.

Not practical enough for me.
It seems a lot of his stuff sounds good on paper but is not practical in the mountains.
=========
Wow, what a clueless fuck. Those statements alone about repositioning in a storm are enough not to buy anything from him.

As far as the Nalo, I used them for 3 days on Rainier when the wind was gusting in 75-100mph and despite putting huge tension both of those peice of shit tents they still flapped, bucked, twisted and made a huge racket the entire weekend. I was surprised they lasted. They were pretty embarrassing peices of equipment and I was glad I was not the one who had shelled out over $1000 for them.

---------------
During a windy night at Camp Muir, the Warmlite 3R ripped open. The winds were maybe 40 kph, not super windy but pretty gusty. Furthermore, the Stephenson manufacturer claims the middle hoop for the 3R is "optional" and really not needed, and that the tent can withstand hurricane force winds (150 mph or something crazy like that). The "optional" middle hoop is the only way the thing seems to have a prayer of withstanding a strong crosswind, and the 150 mph claim, well, that's pretty hard to believe. I don't know, maybe they've changed the design of the 3R since 1999. But I'll never use a Warmlite on an alpine climb again.

------

I slept in one (Stepheson Warmlite) once, not much head room and I am only 4foot13. [Eek!]

My friend has used hers for 2 multi-month ski tours (Vancouver to Skagway + complete St Elias) and seems to have pretty good durability. The thing is so light and flimsy feeling though, I don't think I'd want it with me if I was climbing Denali.

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We used ours on some unprotected plains in Patagonia in gale force winds and had no problem. In Bolivia, the winds tended to come later in the day so we had trouble orienting the tent when we first made camp. When the wind blows from the side it really deforms the tent and gets pretty scary but it held up. It's surprising given that the material seems paper thin.
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My overall opinion is that the Warmlite is a great backpacking and long approach basecamp tent (the thing is super light) but on high mountains I'd rather bring something a little more durable and free standing.

Hmmm ... cascadeclimber.com always seems to have an overwhelmingly negative group of posts on almost every piece of gear. Much like the Usenet rec.climbing. But of the 6 posts you clipped (hard to tell if some of the paragraph breaks are also divisions between posts), 4 stated that their Stephensons stood up to the winds, with one saying that theirs ripped open. One specifically says theirs stood up to 75-100 mph winds, albeit with lots of flapping.

I gather you have never camped in high wind conditions. I have on many occasions in several of the top expedition tents. When you get above 30-40 knots, all of the tents flapped noisily no matter how carefully pitched even when using the full external and internal guying systems, and at the 70+ knot level, all of them did a bit of distortion. I have seen more than once tents by North Face, for example, ripped apart at recorded 75 knot winds (the report was from the National Park Service rangers at the 17,000 ft camp on Denali from their wind guage near the tents that came apart). These tents were behind windwalls, and one of the tents was lifted out of the windwalls with people in it. Windwalls help a lot, but they aren't perfect. They erode in high wind conditions, and sometimes they get pushed over onto the tent.

It makes a lot of difference how you pitch the tent, whether you use all the available guys, and how you build your windwalls. There are some advocates of double windwalls - that is, a set close to the tent (5-8 feet from the tent) and a second set 5-8 feet farther out. Some people build a windwall only on the prevailing upwind side, and some always completely surround the tent. There is no room here to go into the theory of why one or another approach is "better".

There are two theories running around on tent deformation by the wind. One is to use lots of cross-poles, making a strong geodesic dome structure, buttressed by lots of external guys and internal guys. Examples are the TNF VE24 and 25, Mountain Hardwear Trango and EV, and SD's Stretch Dome (the Stretch Dome also has "Jake's Corners", an extra bracing of the 4 corner pole ends). The other is to have a flexible tent that gives in the wind and spills off the stronger gusts, examples being Bibler's I-tent and the similar Integral Designs. I agree that it is a bit nerve-wracking to be in a Bibler (I have the Eldorado) with the tent flexing around you, but mine has stood up to winds on the order of 50 knots (measured with my Kestrel 4000).

As for the Stephenson seeming "light and flimsy", modern materials are much stronger for the weight than a lot of the old materials. You can't really tell that much from the "feel". Consider climbing ropes, for which there are readily available strength tests under static and dynamic conditions. When I started serious climbing, many climbers were still using manila ropes with a breaking strength of 2000 pounds. Nylon and Goldline laid ropes at the time were rated at 5000 pounds (the current CE and UIAA tests did not exist). Today, there are 8mm ropes that test stronger (number of falls held in the standard tests) than when kern-mantle ropes came into widespread use in the 1960s, and the standard was 11mm. That's about 2/3 the diameter and just over half the cross-section. A better comparison is the material used for parapentes, B.A.S.E parachutes, and hang gliders these days, compared to even 20 years ago. A typical parapente or B.A.S.E. chute today is half the weight of the older ones, yet is stronger than the older ones (no, I don't jump off buildings, antennas, structures, cliffs, or perfectly good working airplanes myself, just know a lot of people who do).

" I am only 4foot13." - I suppose that's another way of saying they're 5'1" .... sorry ... and I know you didn't write it - but when I read something like that it makes me a bit skeptical about the author. That would be like me saying I'm only 5'14" tall - honest - but rather silly!

The golite hex - that's the floorless pyramid - no? pitched correctly that should be a nice shelter able to withstand strong winds. I've always fancied that shape for a tent - but since Boy Scouts (where we had "Miner" tents - canvas pyramids) haven't used one -

The tent of mine that failed was a Gerry (cannot recall the name - it tapered front to back, was a two man and had an integral vestibule as part of the fly) - to be fair the winds were between 65-80MPH that night - and had shifted so the pitch wasn't optimal - but I cut a lot of lawns to pay for it.

Bill, Don't they have a wind tunnel over at CalTech? I think I saw one on one of Huell Howser's PBS programs. Maybe we could have "tent day" and see which ones really hold up.

Can a wind tunnel give real world results? What I mean is that real winds shift, change direction, gust, and so on. I'm always leary of lab tests on gear since life outside tends to be different somehow; tent's aren't always able to be pitched as well as one would like, stakes may not hold as well in the ground, etc...

Tom -
There was a wind tunnel many years ago, during the WWII era. But the building became the synchrotron lab by the time I was there. I don't think there is one there anymore, but I will check in a couple weeks when I am down there for Reunion Weekend.

Over across the freeway from where I live, NASA Ames has a number of wind tunnels, including a really huge one that is used for big aircraft. I may have to ask one of the climbing folks I know if they would consider testing tents. I doubt it, since it is so expensive to run the tunnels for even a short time. I was told one time that running the big one requires as much power as the whole city of Mountain View, where it is located. You going to cough up to pay the power bill?

Can't we get a government grant for that sort of thing? I read online that CalTech shut down the old tunnel a few years ago and was building a smaller one in its place, but I didn't see anything on the new one, then again, I didn't spend much time looking.

btw, Do you know how people learn to design tents? I've looked online all over the place and haven't seen anything about it. Just wondering since there are so many different designs out there, including some really strange ones that look more like art projects than tents. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but I tend to like something practical and simple to assemble. Simple minds need simple things.

A wind tunnel would be great for steady state aerodynamic testing - but would do little for simulating the "real world" with all its variability - gusts - cross winds - snow accumulation or erosion, odd currents coming off other parts of a mountain.

Tom - most tents are probably designed with the sound engineering principal "hey - this looks kinda cool" behind them - you think it up - build a prototype - test it - get some other people to test it - then start selling it. You could use CAD software for the design (looking at some pole assemblies in "modern" tents I'm convinced some CAD jockey had far to much time on his/her hands!) - you could use stress analysis software to model the structure and figure out potential points of failure. You could even use computer based aerodynamic analysis to simulate loads coming from various positions -

Personally I've always been a fan of simplicity (odd, as am a software engineer, and our main goal is to complicate life so that we, the propeller heads of the world, continue to control and dominate ;=} ) - I like the old basic "A" frame tents (which seem to shed wind and snow really well) and pyramids (easier to set up than an "A" frame and probably better in the wind as well) -

From a marketing perspective, there is probably a correlation between percieved value and complexity of design - in other words - you can sell a yuppie a complex "gee whizz" tent for a lot more $$ than you can sell him a simple tent - 'cause he's going to be more apt to show off his complex tent to his idiot yuppie friends -

I'd apologize for calling yuppies idiots - but I'm really not in the mood today ...

Steve

I was told once that back in the 1970's when Cannondale made their tents that they were sketched on a bar napkin. Somehow the best designs seem to be generated in such a manner.

I hadn't seen a Logan tent in many years, until I was at Patriot Hills in December (Antarctica). They were using a half-dozen of them for storage of gear and food that didn't have to be refrigerated (a smiley is needed here - outside air temperatures were below freezing, but they use an ice cave for still colder temperatures). We had a number of days with 50-60 knot gusty winds, and the Logans seemed to do just fine. You would think with their being so tall that they would suffer in the wind, but they didn't. They did flap a bit, but less than you might expect. I do know that my Black Diamond Megamid (pyramid shape, basically a shaped tarp) does surprisingly well in winds. Plus, not having a floor and needing only the center pole plus stakes (center pole can be an adjustable ski pole fully extended) it is really light - 3 pounds to sleep 4 people. Dig down into the snow to make standing head-height with sleeping platforms. There are a floor and an insect netting liner, but those add weight, so I never got them. There is a 1.5 pound version made of silcoat as well.

These 2 culled comments (see above) completely reinforce my gut feelings:

(response to statements attributed to Mr Stephensons Jr.) "Wow, what a clueless fuck. Those statements alone about repositioning in a storm are enough not to buy anything from him."

(about the tent) "During a windy night at Camp Muir, the Warmlite 3R ripped open. The winds were maybe 40 kph, not super windy but pretty gusty. Furthermore, the Stephenson manufacturer claims the middle hoop for the 3R is "optional" and really not needed, and that the tent can withstand hurricane force winds (150 mph or something crazy like that). The "optional" middle hoop is the only way the thing seems to have a prayer of withstanding a strong crosswind, and the 150 mph claim, well, that's pretty hard to believe. I'll never use a Warmlite on an alpine climb again."

-------------
You are correct that the Hex is if nothing else fairly stable in a breeze because if warranted you can use something like 16 stakes. Due to shape, it's probably better in wind than Megamid. Whereas my MSR Twin Peaks is also good; lower, and with two ridged poles.

Ok, here is a windy story about a 2 place Stephensons. Both of us were leaning against the inside of the tent hoping to keep the snow anchor in place and make sure it would hold and the tie off anchor to well placed protection would keep us on the ledge. It was a wide ledge but neither of us wanted to slide toward the edge. At times the tent center would seem to leave the ground even with both of us bracing the windy side. I was concerned we would put our boots through the other side. We were fully dressed and packed waiting to be kicked outside any second. We were both coming up with survival alternatives other than it would have been a lot nicer if we were on a beach at say Hilo, Hawaii.

We were getting buffeted by winds from every direction except from the mountain and the slight rock ridge behind us. Once it would come from the right, then stop as we scrambled to the left as we heard it screaming around the edge of the rock ridge toward us. The gusts seemed at times to come directly at the door (worried about the anchors). By dawn we were pretty much drifted in because we didn't dare open the door to clear. Amazing how small the inside becomes with snow on all sides. That made me appreciate a middle hoop - too bad this tent doesn't have one.

I have not a clue about the wind intensity, but you can believe we did not sleep any that night! We both were telling each other that it was lucky we had a small wind print tent. We kept trying to convince each other that was true all night long :)

No damage to the hold points on the tent. Lots of frayd nerves.

No complaints about the tent, except it was too small for the company I had.

My current tents are a Kifaru 8-man tipi, a Kifaru Paratipi, an Integral Designs MKI-XL, a Bibler Solo Dome and a Hilleberg Saivo. I just tossed my elderly Chouninard Pyramid, the original blue version and have owned/used a number of tents from Europe, the USA, the UK and Canada as well as having sold tents in my last job. I have used most of what has been on the market over the past 40+ years, in B.C./Alberta conditions.

I won't debate the issue or engage in personal pizzing matchs, but, I will say that this Hilleberg Saivo is the single finest tent I have EVER seen or used and so easy to erect that even a klutz like me can do it quicker than almost anything else, except my Integral Designs Mega Sola.

At present, I would no buy any tent EXCEPT a Hilleberg, even at the high prices they sell for when imported into Canada....that says what I have experienced and I prefer opinions based on experience.

As much as I hate to derail this conversation - back to the original topic -

Are there are any other small companies that make quality products but fly below the mainstream radar?

I'm making my own gear and I wonder who else is producing gear on a small scale (similar to the way I imagine most all gear companies started).

Scruggs -

Small gear manufacturing is much like the indie music world (in which I live) - many of the finest songwriters and musicians are people you've never heard of - because they don't morph themselves into the mainstream definition of, say, a country singer.

High quality mountain equipment is very much the same - I suppose that - as with music and musicians - you need to search them out. Forums like this, perhaps whiteblaze (an appalachian trail site), mountain club websites and places like that would be good sources. At least for indie music we've got myspace and other web outlets!

As an aside - do you have a website where some of your gear is shown?

Ray Jardine started his own gear company - no reason you couldn't as well!

Me? I'm trying to get Nashville to pay attention ...

calamity -
I think your lead comment in your last post illustrates the point very well - "These 2 culled comments (see above) completely reinforce my gut feelings:..." You have selectively chosen the negative comments and omitted the ones contrary to your "gut feelings". In science, we call that "selection effect" - pick the data that supports the preconceived conclusion.

In 12 reviews posted to Trailspace, 6 are 5 star (top positive rating), 5 are 3.5-star (one particular tent the 2R which got 2 of the 5-star ratings), and one 2-star. That's pretty positive. By comparison, of 78 reviews of North Face tents, only 2 reviews rated any TNF tents as 5 star. 8 of 96 reviews of Mountain Hardwear tents were 5 star. 16 of 108 Sierra Designs tents got 5 stars. So it looks like Stephensons gets a higher level of enthusiasm by users than other top companies. Except no review for SD or MH was lower than 3 stars, and for TNF 2.5 stars. You really have to read the reviews closely, though, because sometimes the flaw is pretty important for a particular use, and sometimes it makes no difference for the use to which it will be put.

I have seen many situations and much gear where one or two negative experiences completely sours someone on an excellent product, and comments from that person "reinforces my gut feelings" for another person. The question from Scruggs is very relevant to this - "Are there are any other small companies that make quality products but fly below the mainstream radar?" The answer to Scruggs is, as Steve said, yes, there are lots of small companies making quality gear. Directly relevant to the main set of posts in this thread, many of those companies are run by people who are somewhat eccentric, somewhat egoists, and often feisty. Dana Gleason is such an example. When Dana Packs got too large for him, he sold the company to K2, which went directions he did not approve of. He then started Mystery Mountain. About this time, I sat down with him to discuss Mystery Mountain packs, but made the mistake of bemoaning his sale of Dana Packs, which resulted in a long tirade against the new owners and the direction they were going, along with why his new company was making the world's best packs (they are good, in fact, if a bit quirky), and the rest of the world was out of step. Jack Stephenson was one of those eccentric individuals, and to a large extent so is his son.

In climbing gear, back in the 1960s, there was a guy by name of Bill Feurer, who acquired the nickname of The Dolt. He is the person that Dolt Tower on the Nose route up El Cap is named. Nice guy, and brilliant in engineering and inventiveness, but a lousy businessman and prone to inventing weird things (like the Dolt trailer) and doing crazy things on climbs (hence the nickname Dolt). His designs of climbing gear got copied and incorporated into a lot of climbing gear that is around today. Because people were copying his gear, he became more and more paranoid (literally, in the medical sense), ultimately committing suicide.

Ray Jardine is another example of a very inventive person who started his own company, although he sold off the rights to Friends (the original successful camming device), then went on to invent The Ray Way of extreme ultralight camping. To say the least, he is pretty fanatical and eccentric, and can get quite feisty if you get critical about his approach to things. Friends are now produced by Wild Things, and GoLite has the rights to much of the RayWay ultralite gear and clothing designs.

You can find similar examples among musicians (right, Steve? No, no, no, Steve, not you of course ;D) and other artists. Feistiness seems to be a characteristic of inventive people. So I would say that confrontational incidents are not the way to judge gear, or artistic merit. For gear, the question is how does it work in the real world situations for which it is designed. In music and art, judge the product, not the artist. Obvious examples are Beethoven and Glenn Glould in the classic world, Rembrandt and Picasso among painters, Doc Watson among country/folk artists (I saw him throw his guitar down in the midst of a concert once because someone misadjusted a mike).

Getting back to Stephensons in how it works - most of my personal experience, and that of most people I know who have and have used Stephensons tents and sleeping bags extensively is overwhelmingly positive. Having a tent, made by anyone, that comes apart in a storm is not that surprising. As I previously noted, I have seen TNF tents come apart, as well as other top brands. I have also seen cheap tents that surprised me by standing up in conditions that I would have been sure they would fail. But the vast majority of TNF, MH, SD, and other top brands that I have been in or camped near to in storms in places like Denali, the Mexican volcanoes, the Cascades, Sierra, Rockies, Alps, White Mountains (specifically the Presidential Range), and other places have stood up quite well. All the Stephensons tents I have seen in such situations have stood up as well.

One of the quotes you included and re-quoted refers to a Stephenson coming apart at Camp Muir. As it happens, I have seen one and know of a couple of North Face, one Sierra Designs, and one Bibler tent that came apart in that same location. I have also gone through one storm where two people camped right next to me had their identical tent to mine start ripping a seam while mine stood up just fine. Before condemning all products from any company, I would have to know what the conditions really were and how the tent was pitched. How old was the tent, how many days in the sun at high altitude, how many windstorms had it been through, how had it been cared for (packing, drying after trips, storage at home, etc)? As I said before, that makes a huge difference in survivability of the tent. It's not the personality, ethnicity, race, color, religion, political affiliation, or any such thing that makes the difference. It is simply how it holds up in the situations in which I use it. Again, 4 of the 6 quotes you had in your earlier post said their Stephensons tents stood up. And remember, people with bad experiences will complain loudly and post diatribes, while most people with good experiences won't take the time to post. It is far easier to tear down than to praise.

Bill makes some great points. There are a lot of "cottage industry" gear makers. Many only sell on the Internet because big stores either can't or won't carry their gear, often because they can't make enough of it to stock a chain like REI. Many make UL gear like the under one pound pack that isn't for everyone.

Reviews have to be taken with a grain of salt. Sometimes people give bad reviews to gear they don't really know much about. I've seen reviews where it seemed the reviewer didn't know how to use the product, so it gets a bad review from them. Sometimes you just get a lemon. I badmouth my Optimus Nova because it clogged up and the pump broke the first time I used it and Brunton never got back to me about it after I emailed them. Other people love it, but I've got nothing good to say about it.

Like Bill said, just because you don't like something, doesn't mean it isn't perfect for someone else. I've seen people with cheap gear and most of the time, it really doesn't matter. They aren't going to Denali, aren't going to out in 100 mph winds and aren't walking through Nepal, so a cheap tent from Brand X or a cheap pack or stove or whatever might suit them fine.

Not everyone has the time, money or interest in testing every piece of gear around, then buying the most expensive, most durable or most anything else. I sure don't. Knocking Kelty or TNF is a hobby for some people. It's like knocking REI-go shop somewhere else. Sure I probably know almost as much or more than most of their salespeople. I used to work in retail. No one know everything, some people know nothing. Is that frustrating? Sure, but that's life, get over it.

How true, it seems that quite a few posters on various backpacking forums tend to be negative about things/people and make comments NOT based on direct experience.

As to Dana, I have used his packs since 1978, still have my original "Kletterwerks Bomb Pack", had a "Terraplane Overkill" from Bozeman circa 1993 which was stolen and now have Mystery Ranch BDSB, NICE 6500 combo with Crewcab and Futura Deluxe packs as well as having a NICE Overkill frame on order. Mystery Ranch packs are my favourite and I use mine constantly; they are VERY well designed and made, a tad heavy and comfortable under 100 lb. loads.

I prefer gear from guys who are egoistic, passionate and highly commited to their products; maybe such people CAN seem arrogant, but, their gear makes it worthwhile. When real advances are made, it's usually the tough-minded, iconoclastic individual who makes them as Dana, Bo Hilleberg, Evan Jones of ID, Patrick Smith of Kifaru and Wayne Gregory as well as Dan McHale have demonstrated.

Scruggs-there are a lot of the small companies online-some have come and gone or been bought out, and some deserve to be gone because of bad customer service-taking orders and not delivering products. A few I can remember offhand in no particular order-
Hennessey (hammocks)
Tarptent (Henry Shires-great service and products from what I read)
Titanium Goat (teepee tents and UL stoves and such)
AntiGravity Gear -cooking stuff mostly
ULA-packs
There are a bunch more I can't think of at the moment. I mentioned a few others in a previous post above. Sometimes its hard to tell how small a company is-some of them look small but are subsidiaries of larger companies. GoLite was bought by Timerland, the shoe company, fairly recently (within the last year, I believe).

Most of the little companies I've seen make UL gear or climbing gear. If you visit sites such as backpackinglight.com, backpacking.net, or whiteblaze.com, you can find UL gear in their gear stores,threads in their forums with lists of small gear makers, and questions and reviews of various products from the smaller companies.

You may be able to do the same on the climbing oriented websites. Some of the online stores like backcountrygear.com carry some gear from smaller companies as well.

Excellent feedback. Thanks.

So far, I've got simple sewing projects under my belt: summer weight sleeping bags (sheets) and a tarp. Outdoor Wilderness Fabrics, Inc. (www.owfinc.com) is brilliant and the staff are terrific.

I get value and satisfaction from SELF-sufficiency in the harshest conditions - backcountry and marketplace - so my product probably isn't fit for mass consumption.

And Steve - better to be in a town with big ears, like Nashville, rather than one that's totally deaf, like Huntsville! Use that mantra - it could always be worse!

I don't disagree with anything that's been said above, except something I said, which should be corrected. The Go-Light Hex takes a maximum of eleven stakes.

David Brower's "Going Light with Backpack And Burro" and his "Sierra Club Manuel of Ski Mountaineering," both from early 1950s, offer the same rough pattern for self-sewn ultralight tent that looks like one of the latest pup-tents from Go-Light.

Brower pushed the design slightly more in the "manuel" while in "Going Light," he made only a few, generalized and mostly wise comments about equipment. It was a nice book, with depraved notions about food.

I can't recommend Cooke Custom Sewing highly enough.
http://www.cookecustomsewing.com/index.shtml
The gear is mostly designed for canoe tripping, but the tarps and shelters also work well for backpacking. Materials and construction of the products are second to none and Dan Cooke is a very fine person; I know him personally. I have a tarp, two of his canoe packs, mukluks and a canoe cover by Cooke and I love them all.

Reason why GoLite's tent looks a lot like Brower's is that Ray Jardine (and all of us in the 1950s and 60s) read Dave's books (and others of the Sierra Club how-to books when the Club was doing lots of instruction and Dave had not yet changed the Club to a primarily political organization). GoLite, as mentioned before, got its start by commercializing Jardine's ultralite designs.

As for the food, well, remember, that was in the days when we all still got "healthy" tans, ate large quantities of steaks, and before the "fast food" (almost typed "fat foods") franchises ruled the world, and also before Adelle Davis wrote her books waking us up to the problems of the "steak and potatoes" diet so common at the time. And that was also when famous athletes and "doctors" were featured in the tobacco company ads (other old grey heads here probably remember the "T-zone" ads, and "I'd walk a mile for a Camel").

And Dave's books were also before he became the great prophet and Chief Druid of the environmental movement. So there are lots of things in them we now realize weren't quite right. The last photo I took of Dave was at the dedication of the Jules Eichorn redwood grove in Big Basin. He made several comments at that dedication about how much our views have changed over the years.

But there are lots of great ideas there. Tent designs actually haven't changed much in more than a century. I was looking through a portfolio of Frank Hurley's photographs yesterday, with a large section devoted to Shackleton's Endurance expedition. Besides the Logan tents, Shackleton took several hoop tents (yes, they used that term then) that look a lot like Stephensons and Hilleberg tents. Scott's, Amundsen's, and Shackleton's earlier expeditions also used pyramid tents that look a lot like the Megamid and GoLite versions. Of course, they did not have the modern materials (nylon wasn't invented until the 1940s or so, and silcoat not until the 1980s). So those tents weren't exactly "ultralite". But those designs have been long proven to stand up well in polar conditions of high winds and cold.

Almost nothing in Brower's how-to books was bad advice except I can't comment on livestock material....

Brower's influence Harvey Manning's how-two writing seems noticable. Brower's influence in Jardine's case may be less direct.

The 1952 "Going Light with Pack and Burro" was still available from REI catalog in early seventies. It should be reprinted as historic curiosity. A very late edition of Brower's "Manuel" was current in early 1970s, though I think the author/editor may have changed completely by then and it merely had a forewword by Brower.

(For historic modernist curiosity, see also online via simple Google search, 1950 abortive "how-to" manuscript on Sierra backpacking by Kenneth Rexroth, who inadvertantly launched "Beat" literatue in San Francisco some years later, much to his alleged subsequent regret.)

Regarding old-style tents, I fully agree with above views and note also Horace Kephart's 1911 comments in "Camping & Woodcraft" regarding British pedestrian kits, including exact prices and also weights that were extremely close to today's lightest camping equipment.

Silk tents, down sleeping bags and alcohol stoves (soda-can pattern). The excellent Kephart dismisses these, but elsewhere he has some very light patterns for tarp shelter sewing.

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Brower was wrong, in todays terms, only in his reliance on pine needles or zero ground insulation and by not mentioning browse bags as part of his alternative.

Technologically this is transitional, as ensolite became established within a decade or so. Kephart's English kit had Japanese rubber mat in 1911.

Just got back from the Smokies (tarp worked well - no rain). Picked up "Our Southern Highlanders" by Horace Kephardt. And saw a HUGE bear.

I found this site a few years ago with the story about a new tent in development by the Aussies. If you scroll down to the bottom, you'll see a picture of a 1911 vintage pyramid tent-not lighweight, of course, from one of Mawson's expeditions that looks similar, so almost a 100 years later, not that much has changed in some designs, except materials.
http://www.aad.gov.au/default.asp?casid=13208

Fantastic au.gov link. Thanks. And speaking of old-time stuff, Kephart's "Camping & Woodcraft." I never quite finished "Southern Highlanders."