what is the reality of the dangers from other humans on the trail?

i am currently planning a solo trip along the PCT. i have always hiked/camped with people, so this will be my first time solo. i keep reading about people talking about random whackos and dangerous people running meth labs in the woods etc. How real is this threat, and where are these people usually doing this? I am in the pacific northwest, if it makes any difference. I just hate that i have to worry about this kind of thing when i am going somewhere that i want to relax and be peaceful.

thoughts?

The drug trade stays well away from only the threat of accidental discovery. Probably safe from them if you stick to maintained trails and the PCT. Its not like they want a lot of people to know what they are doing.

You will probably really NOT be solo on most well traveled trails and the tributary feeds to the PCT.

The chance of meeting a strange person decreases the farther away from the parking lot you get. Your greatest risk of injury from a fellow human is probably not more than a mile from where you are sitting reading this.

Relax and be peaceful and enjoy the company of those that you meet along the way. There are very good odds they are very much like you in habits, emotions and personality and will love to tell you their stories and want to know about you as well.

In all my years I have never met a more gregarious group of people willing to help if you have a problem.

Except for once in a while there is this guy with a bloody hook.....

if you see a kid sitting on a bridge playing a banjo you can start to worry - other than that - the greatest danger from back country people is running into someone who hasn't spoken with another human in a few weeks who'll talk your ear off ....

Enjoy your trip!

Clandestine meth labs ARE being found, in increasing numbers, in public areas such as state, county and local park camping areas – at least here in the northeast. The closer you get to populated areas, the higher the chance that you may find one of these labs, however, if you’re a “Cooker” and you don’t want to get caught, it would make sense to move farther and farther away from the general population. - Just like the moonshiners did in days gone by.

As a wilderness first responder, I have attended classes that teach what to look for and explain that “what to look” for is nothing out of the ordinary. Campfires, pots and pans, tents, water bottles – Think about that for a moment.

As for physical danger, I believe you can never be totally safe from that. I recently read “A Walk In The Woods” and the author describes 8 murders on the AT since it’s creation. But, if you average out the number of hiker miles on the AT – the incidence of violence is very low.

I’m not one of those people that would tell you not to go on your trip, after all, it’s still going to be A LOT safer than spending a week in the city. I will tell you though to be careful, trust no one, file a trip plan, and keep in contact with friends/family as often as you can while on the trail. It’s a changing world. Sad? Yes it is.

God speed.

if your not bushwacking and creating new trails, your gonna be fine.

Us meth lab operators don't want you hikers in our vacinity as much as you don't want to run into us.

If you start smelling dry martinis (stirred, not shaken), your off the trail.

I just don't get the logic. Who in their right mind is going to rob someone out on a trail with no money and camping gear that might total $200 - $300 on the resale market? Imagine the lengths they will have to go to get your gear and haul it out... and all the people (aka, witnesses) they will be passing on the trail as they make their "quick" get away. It would be random and rare for anyone to have a problem, its just to much trouble for someone to make a living robbing campers and hikers in the backcountry. I think these leppers probably stick a little closer to the parking lot.

As to the meth labs, these guys are like cockroaches, they scurry for cover at any sign of life and the possibility of discovery. Chances are if you happen across a meth lab in the woods its not going to be run by the gangs of LA. You are not going to run into any of them unless you get way off trail and just happen to stumble into their secret lab. How many times have you gone off trail into deep cover for more than 500 yards or so?(most likely scenario for a meth lab)

The possibility exists that you will be murdered in the backcountry but so does the possibility of winning the lottery. I think you actually have a better chance at winning the lottery.

Go on your trip and enjoy yourself. Engage others in conversation along the way and enjoy the gift of serendipity. Use your good sense to avoid those shady looking murderous backcountry meth lab purveyors. You will be just fine.

Big Smoke you make some good points.

Ed G - Waaaaayyyyy not funny. How would you feel if the person asking the question was one of your family members?

A little levity can never hurt.

Thomas, you keep reading about the random whackos and meth labs because that's what makes news. "Dog bites man" is nothing; "Man bites dog"--now there's a story.

"Ed G - Waaaaayyyyy not funny. How would you feel if the person asking the question was one of your family members?"

Well, IF the person asking the question was one of my family members, my first thought would be:

What the hell is a Lawyer who has never been camping doing out in the woods?... and then I would tell them don't come visit me at work and if you smell martinis, your off the trail.

I do a lot of my hiking and bushwacking at night.

Keep in mind I live in the South where the good 'ole Georgia and Florida boys do some strange things to make a living. Several times I have come across trip wires (thank god they stand out when illuminted with a blue LED headlamp).

If you frequently travel far off the beaten trail, it is something you should watch out for, but not necessarily let it keep you out of the woods.

Trailhead car break-ins and/or vandalism have affected me twice, and are the only crime that concerns me relative to backcountry. I'd not want to meet professionals engaged in this work, but I'm sure the feeling is mutual.

Crime along the trail itself is statistically way down the list of remote probabilities, and I personally at least, am kept up at night in the woods worrying more about vampires and ghosts, which scare the hell out of me.

My nephew, (who they say doesn't bite) ran a small meth lab inside his mother's suburban house, until the cops & hazmat people asked him to stop. Certainly, he wouldn't have used a wilderness location, unless messy housekeeping and drug-induced dementia rises to the level of truly wild.

I did spend a few nights camping with a Californian, a former special forces commando, who in the past, had apparently accepted employment as an armed guard for agricultural interests taking into account the "multiple use" concept of our National Forest system. (These were in days prior to Blackwater Bonanza for eager vets.) He claimed to have fired his weapon in the line of duty, citing marauding Indians, though the proffered details of this tale in particular, sounded a bit far fetched.

good point Calamity.

I once had a very wise Gunnery Sergeant tell me...

"Son, ain't no reason to soil a perfectly clean set of drawers until you actually see the bad guy show up".

Ya know, truth is, geo cachers are more of a problem for the park managers than drug makers are.

Why to people rob and steal in the backcountry? Likely for the same reasons that they do so in developed areas - economic gain.

Some AT thru-hikers do carry large amounts of cash on themselves for re-supply and can easily make themselves targets by flashing cash in remote "trail friendly" shops. There are predators out there who, if they see you as vulnerable, will take advantage of the situation and be more than happy to ruin your day, or your trip of a lifetime, so a bit of "street smarts" in town can really pay off.

In camp, basic common sense (not leaving expensive stuff laying about unattended) can keep sticky fingers off your stuff.

One bit of back-country theft that still hacks me off happened to me about 15 years ago. Someone stole my food bag while I was asleep. No, it wasn't a bear, the tracks in the mud by the rope showed the theif to have had on lug soles - I've never seen a bear with Vibram soles glued to his feet .....

The only time I worry about running into unpleasant people on the trail is when I am hiking in the mountains right along the U.S.-Mexico border. Drug smugglers use the trails in these mountains to "import" drugs. The U.S. Border Patrol seldom goes anywhere they can't drive so these trails are fairly active corridors for the smugglers.

Usually what you will see is a group of 10 - 20 "mules" each carrying a bale of weed; the mules are accompanied by 1-2 guys carrying AK-47's. They are known to shoot first and ask questions later in order to protect their goods.

An acquaintance of mine was shot and killed while in his deer-hunting camp. The Santa Cruz County Sheriff suspects drug smugglers came through and were surprised by finding him. But the case has now been open for 3 years and is not likely to be closed. He left a wife and 4 kids.

I have encountered several drug pack trains but always well before I came into rifle range. I keep my eyes open and am always ready to haul a$$ at first sight. There are now several beautiful places that I just won't go to any more.

In the past, I have reported my encounters to the Border Patrol. They have had no apparent interest in my encounters and, in fact, seem a little irritated when they have to deal with my phone call. Your tax dollars at work!

Go out in the middle of winter. My winter trips usually include zero degree temps and blizzards, it thins out the rifraf and tourist types. In fact, if a dubious fellow spent 5 days in a blizzard and we met afterwards, he'd probably be so happy just to sit and talk he'd forget about mishap and mayhem. It's just another advantage to winter backpacking . . .

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One bit of back-country theft that still hacks me off happened to me about 15 years ago. Someone stole my food bag while I was asleep. No, it wasn't a bear, the tracks in the mud by the rope showed the theif to have had on lug soles - I've never seen a bear with Vibram soles glued to his feet .....

That's outrageous!!! I think one would have to feel really violated if that were to happen.

I wear hearing aids, which I take out to sleep. I suppose I'd be a prime candidate for theft of that kind, but I've never had any troulbe like that.

My biggest concern is like calamity said, the car left alone at the trailhead is a pretty good target. But so far so good on that.

I haven't had anything stolen from me (yet) while camping. I haven't done that much either, just getting into the whole scene.

The food theft perturbs me. I think to avoid this problem, I will be twice what I need for the trip. And store them at night in two separate containers. Twice the amount needed, because you should always be prepared, and separate and not stored in the same area, if one gets stolen.

I should note that the food theft was a one time thing - it's not at all common and there's no way I'd hump twice the food through the woods to compensate!

The simple solution would be to keep the food with me when I slept, of course, this is 100% contrary to any iota of common sense when you're sharing the woods with bears .....

Taken over a lifetime it's not a statistically significant event - so I'll keep hanging my food bags and - if it happens again - look at it as an opportunity to improve my body mass index!

My food bag contains things like nettle tea, spirulina, veggie fake-meat, miso, kelp powder, and tempeh. Whoever wants it can have it. BTW, keeping one special food item like a Twinkie dosed with ex-lax in the food bag might not keep the bag from getting lifted, but it would help you smile down the trail the next day.

I think the chance of a food theft is miniscule; carrying twice the amount of food you need sounds like a drastic solution to a non-existent problem. If you are really worried about it, the better solution is to carry the food you would normally simply divide that in two, storing in two separate places. Then, if one is stolen, you still have something to tide you over.

But I wouldn't even do that.

"a Twinkie dosed with ex-lax in the food bag might not keep the bag from getting lifted, but it would help you smile down the trail the next day."

heh heh .... have we met? I had a cookie pilfering manager many years ago - cured his addiction to our food by making a 'special' batch of brownies ..... the eruption occured during an afternoon conference room meeting .....

It appears we have some very sneaky members among us...

Quote Ed G - "Ya know, truth is, geo cachers are more of a problem for the park managers than drug makers are."

Hay, I resemble that remark! and it's Geocachers not geo cachers :)

Actualy, most Geocachers are very friendly, and do their best to make sure not to dammage the parks. In fact, there are NO physical caches on Mount Rainier because the park managers have made it clear they don't want them. In fact I joined a bunch of other cachers this summer volenteering for the cleanup and restoration efforts on the Wonderland Trail.

As for dangers of the trail, you're far more likely to be attacked by a bear then a person on the trail. Your car is a much more likely target and I suggest being dropped off and picked up for extended hikes.

I'm sure giro catchers are very friendly. I was once one myself.

My wife is a manager for a Florida County Parks and Rec Dept. I'm told that county park officials and State Park Rangers, don't like people coming into their woods to stash stuff, and they do what they can to stop it.

It's not damage to the parks that is the major issue. After 9/11, giro catching was frowned upon due to a fear that terrorists could be hiding explosives in the parks for others to find and become dead, dead, dead.

Liability issues.

what is giro catching ?

He meant "geocaching", I believe. At least, I can't imagine anyone hunting and catching Greek sandwiches in Florida parks. Or is this a variation on Ultimate Frisbee played with pita bread?

Bill is almost right on.

Giro Catching is a very dangerous sport involving extremely hard uncut pita bread. It originated when Okinawan farmers, (who had their traditional weapons forcibly taken away) used it as a means to defend themselves against the Japanese when Japan invaded the island during the boxer short rebellion.

Remember the scene in the James Bond movie where the bad guy took off his bowler hat, threw it and it cut the head off a statue?

That hat was made of hard uncut pita bread.

Ninja's refer to it as Shiruken's AKA, throwing stars.

The Okinawan's also fashioned numb-nut chalko's from pita bread and beat potential robbers in the go-nads.

That led to why when folks are running distance races, each participant is referd to as a "nad". The appropriate cheer the runners want to hear while they are racing toward the finish tape is: "go nad, go nad".

I'd say the biggest thing to worry about while hiking solo is a sprained ankle or other injury on the trail that is serious enough to prevent you from getting out on you're own.

Ever sprain your ankle while in the wilderness?

Ed G...the detail you go into is quite interesting (or perhaps frightening) do you know how we can make our own hard uncut pita bread discs? And perhaps the rules to such a wonderful yet dangerous game? (sorry for the continuing hijack, haha)

As for the actual thread topic I would say, based soley on personal experiance and the assumption that all of man (and woman) kind are inherently good I'd say you should have no trouble with Johnny C the meth cook. :D Seriously though I'd agree with BigSmoke in saying that odds are you'll be fine, and really, preparing for that 1 in a ba-gillion chance is wasting your time (time that could be spent preparing for other potential, and far more likely, emergencies).

"Ever sprain your ankle while in the wilderness?" - yep - but that was my own fault (darned bouldering) - wasn't a danger from other humans ...

A quick two-bits of philosophy that could apply to a number of safety-oriented threads on this site: If the real pleasure you receive or anticipate from an activity that poses no obvious danger to someone else sufficiently outweighs a reasonable assessment of its associated risks of harm to you, then do it. If it doesn't, don't. Such decisions for a rational person really are pretty simple, although of absolutely no consolation to the passenger in a crashing plane who chose that airline flight as the "safest" means of long-distance travel. Bears, cougars, ticks, mosquitos, people, cliffs, snow, rocks, water, temperature, altitude, heavy backpacks and ill-fitting footwear all pose a variety of risks to one's health and safety, but regret and irrational fear are by far the most corrosive and debilitating of injuries. This is not a criticism of those who ask for assistance or reinforcement, but rather, hopefully, a nudge to those who miss out on a lot of pleasure because of undefined fears or poorly calculated risks.

Saw a bumper sticker once..."Life's tuff, get a helmet." Another read..."sh*t happens" - I agree with both.

"Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death..." - Herbert (Frank not George)

You don't need to be Pollyanna, but most of the people in this world would like to like you - given the opportunity. Predators in cities choose their prey (when hunting casually) by the scent of fear, the rigid walk, the averted eyes, etc.

Any predators in the wilderness (mountain lions, humans, etc.) will choose their prey the same way. So, smile and enjoy everyone you meet - the easiest way to disarm is charm (just made that up, but it is snappy!!). Anyway, if you're on the path, you're more likely to meet (and need) an osteopath than a psychopath.

JMHO

I live in the middle of nowhere and you would think that the further away from a road you get, the safer it is. That can be quite the opposite here. Take for example this guys random encounter in a remote location while going on a hike with his kids. There's creepy people out there. Scroll down just a wee bit to the 'Be Prepared' blog.

http://www.udink.org/archives/2006/11/

The link utahhiker provided underscores my belief that the biggest danger to hikers is at trail heads and parking lots. There are plenty of unattended vehicles to go "shopping" in and people might be a little less on guard there.

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The link utahhiker provided underscores my belief that the biggest danger to hikers is at trail heads and parking lots. There are plenty of unattended vehicles to go "shopping" in and people might be a little less on guard there.

I feel the same way in regards to parking lots and trail heads, but this was no ordinary one. It's difficult for vehicles to get out there, let alone some random stranger. And the fact that there were no other vehicles in sight makes it even more strange. There's a famous ghost story/urban legend that circulates the area about this guy who disappeared around the same place back in 1998. There's a link to his missing profile.

http://www.bci.utah.gov/MPC/MPCMissing.html#thayn

utahhiker,

I read the "Be Prepared" article and thought "This writer is being very foolish (actually, it was stronger than that)."

The writer worries about confronting the "crazy man" in court because then the "crazy man" will know his name and where he lives. Well, I'm not even a "crazy man" (well, that's subjective) and have no desire to harm the writer, but when someone blasts my actions over the Internet, with such specifics, I might want to spend five minutes and track the writer down. That is all it took for me to find the blogger's home address, phone number, wife's name and age, parent's address, etc.. Who is the "crazy man"... the one with the knife, or the one who first maligns the "crazy man" and then tells the knife wielder how to find him?

People should, IMHO, exercise more caution over their internet practices than they do at present.

As for the encounter... the man may be, probably is, an opportunistic thief, but that doesn't mean he was necessarily a personal threat. Remember we have plenty of members of Congress who might fall into the first category, but not necessarily the second. :)

Quote:

but when someone blasts my actions over the Internet, with such specifics, I might want to spend five minutes and track the writer down

What?? If someone vandalized your vehicle and you witnessed it and decided to go into detail about it over the internet, how is that blasting that persons actions? I would do the same thing. Besides, the dude that was wondering around out there probably has no clue about the internet, as opposed to others.

utahhiker,

Let us look at the episode in detail:
1/ Man seen near truck, examining everything but harming nothing (apparently).
2/ Truckowner, instead of casually walking up to stranger (who may have been only looking for water), shouts (perhaps obscenities, we don't know, but harsh words) for the stranger to get away.
3/ Stranger can't hear particulars and stays by truck, perhaps hoping hiker has water, food, etc.
4/ Truckowner shoots gun to warn stranger.
5/ Stranger, not hostile until this point, slashes two truck tires in anger/retaliation for savage behavior of truckowner (not defending vandalism - but warning shot was way out of line).

So, we don't know that the "crazy man" had malicious intent. He didn't key the truck, he didn't break a window...he did no harm until some crazy man started shooting at him. Nobody likes being taken for granted; judged just because of proximity to something, in this case.

You said:
"Besides, the dude that was wondering around out there probably has no clue about the internet, as opposed to others."

There is a big difference between being alone in the woods/ mountains and being too unsophisticated to use a computer. People who read sites such as this want to be wandering in the mountains -- but they can also navigate a computer. As for being "crazed", various forms of deeply aberrant behaviour are sometimes found among the best and brightest -- the "Hannibel Lechter" set.

I'm with overmywaders - maybe the guy just likes trucks - I've been known to direct an eyeball to other jeeps I see at the trailhead - and would hate like heck to get shot trying to figure out which 6" lift kit a guy was running!

There are many reasons for "odd" behavior, a given person could be deaf, could suffer from learning issues, perhaps just be anti-social - which may mainfest itself as odd behavior but, in reality, just be the way the person in question is. Who knows, others may view your (or my) behavior as "odd" - that's no justification to take hostile actions towards them.

Heh - "odd behavior" - considering that from time to time we all leave our flush toilets and comfortable beds behind so we can lug junk on our backs and sleep on the ground - I'd be willing to bet that LOTS of other people view us as an odd collective ....

I will provide a personal example of judging others because of circumstances:

This is from the asphalt jungle. Back in the late '60s I drifted into Chicago, a pack on my back, my hair long. I needed some money so I walked down to South Chicago - about thirty blocks - to a blood clinic that paid well. When I got there they turned me away because I weighed only 112# and stood 5'9" - a tad skinny, I guess. What I had noticed in my trek south was that the hue of the inhabitants had changed dramatically; I was now in the all-black, very poor, section of town. As I began my return journey to the city center, I noticed four very large, very tall, black men standing on the sidewalk, watching my approach intently. I kept walking with a smile until one of them stepped in front of me, and one stepped behind me, boxing me in. The fellow in front looked down at me, I looked waaay up at him, and he said "Got a quarter for some Ripple?" in a gravelly tone. In my most pleasant voice and clearest diction I replied, "That's fascinating, I was just going to ask you the same thing!" My four new friends looked shocked for a minute, then howled in laughter. I stepped around the fellow ahead of me and said "Be sure to find me when you get that quarter!", and walked on, leaving them still laughing.

We will never know what would have happened if I had assumed the worst of these men, or shown fear (which makes the same statement). As it is, I have a pleasant memory to this day.

Over my years on the road I confronted a thousand like situations. I was only beaten once - near Fargo-Morehead - by a drunk - but not badly, I just blocked most of his wild punches and talked to him calmly. In a few minutes his buddy was able to pull him away and it was over, I walked on.

I suppose what I am trying to say is that we don't need to judge people from a distance of .4 miles and start shooting. :) The trail should be fun.

I'm staying _mostly_ out of this one, but there's a couple things to note about the article that I think are being left out in the discussion and not making a snap judgment about someone's intentions--if the author's recollections are correct, which they may not be 100% due to the stress involved.
Good people are usually quick to assume good in others, an enviable trait, but sometimes things and people just aren't right. From reading the article, there are three things that (again, if recollected correctly) set off warning bells in my head for a potential threat: 1. The stranger continuing to rummage the owner's truck after being aware of his presence. 2. After knowing the owner of the truck was armed and had fired a shot, they stranger deflated both tires and punctured his fuel containers 3. Continuing to flee after the officers had spotted him, even taunting them. There are lots of warning signs here. Disregard for personal possession after being yelled at, much less fired out, is serious anti-social behavior. Being malicious and, frankly, dumb enough to vandalize someone's property right in front of them when they're armed and had fired a shot is crazy. A person in their right mind would have stopped and backed away, not taken instant revenge. Guns and being shot at should be frightening. Add blatant disregard for authority and I think you have more than enough to justify the man's behavior in this instance. You can say he didn't know enough before he fired a warning shot, but instincts are there for a reason and I think, this time, they were used correctly.
With that said, I think the wilderness is more safe from two-legged predators than any urban environment ever will be.

rdavis,

There's an old saying - "Don't criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes -- at which point they are too far away to do anything and barefoot."

The blogger tried this in reverse. He antagonized an unknown person for no reason (nothing had been harmed, suppose the fellow just wanted water) at almost a half mile. Then shot at him from a distance that was non-threatening (but insulting).

A lot of if's here, of course.

None of us really knows what happened except for the two adults who were there. Arguing about what the hiker should have done, or judging his actions this far removed from the incident, is an exercise in futility.

edit: I went back and read the blog again. In defense of the blogger, the person who was near the truck actually climbed into the bed of the truck at one point. overmywaders also stated that the blogger shot at the person, the blogger states that he fired into the ground in a direction away from the person who was near his truck.

I agree there's a lot of supposition to the case, but my point remains the same. However, it's also extremely off topic. This isn't a self defense forum, but an outdoor one, so I'll cease participation in the thread here.
.

Since I have been spending my time in the outdoors, plus a couple of "required" projects, I had not looked at this thread, nor the blog that has generated so much posting. I took a look at it, re-read it several times, followed the links, discovered I have some familiarity with the area, also noted that this is a couple years old, and tried to piece together what actually went on. There are a number of statements in the description that just don't ring true. However, I have neither the time nor interest in searching the police reports or talking to the originator of the story. rdavis is right that much of what has been posted in this thread about the incident is speculation in the absence of factual information that can be confirmed.

I would suggest to the moderators and owners that this has already gone too far. rdavis is right that this is an outdoor forum, not a self defense one. It is way off the original topic, as well as way out of the realm of Trailspace. Perhaps the thread should be locked.