Layering 102 I thought I knew what was going on...

Alright so I am from Ohio and I know a thing or two about cold. Maybe not extreme cold, but between winter vacations to the U.P. in Michigan and the fact I walked two miles to school everyday, I know enough about cold to understand layering. However, I am new to this site and have been perusing the pages when I noticed something in someones response to a post. The person said you should not wear cotton, which I realized is about all I wear. What is the deal? When I hit the trail I start with Under Armour next to my skin with the sleeve and pant lengths varying depending on the temp. I think Under Armour is great for 'wicking' moisture away from my skin, if I am wrong please let me know. But it appears the Under Armour is about the only layer I get right. From there I go T-shirt (cotton), long sleeve shirt (cotton), then usually a sweat shirt (also cotton), however if it is really cold I sub my regular sweatshirt for my Carhart sweatshirt (The heavy 50/50 cotton polyester one with the lining in it) and finally on goes my waterproof Columbia jacket. For the legs it is almost the same, Under Armour, thermal pants, flannel pants, then jeans or snow pants. Am I not supposed to use cotton at all? or just not close to my skin? I know better than to use it on my feet, but what about the rest? As always thanks!

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Survival experts have a saying - 'In the wild - cotton kills!' Cotton absorbs moisture and holds it. Moist clothing pulls heat away from the body and that can cause hypothermia - even if you have a layer of UA on underneath. You'd be better of with a pair of breathable nylon or poly pants instead of jeans - same with the shirt.
Being wet is bad, bad, bad, when it's cold out. The Inuits also have a saying - 'You sweat - you die'.

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Why do you think towels are made of cotton? Cotton simply is one of the best materials out there to absorb water and moisture. Cotton will absorb moisture instead of wicking. I used to be pretty ignorant about cotton but you will notice the difference once you stop wearing it. For just a stroll or a walk in the cold, cotton won't literally kill since you are not sweating but anything that involves sweating cotton SUCKS. Wet clothing is bad because it sucks heat out of you 25x faster than air alone and can lead to hypothermia fast (even as low as 50F).

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All the above is true, cotton is ok for the summer, thats about it.

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There was a time that people - lumberjacks - WW1 soldiers wore a lot of wool. Fishermen wore wool mits handling wet nets in the north atlantic. There was something about - even though wool is wet - you stay warm. It's itchy and heavy.

What do you think about wool. I know it's outdated - ?

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Merino wool is comfortable, light, and warm.

I have a pair of old green wool woodsman's pants that I'll not part with until they rot away - and I don't expect that to happen any time soon, they were my grandfathers hunting pants. They're probably 50 years old! Yeah, they're a bit itchy, but with lightweight capilene or silk britches underneath, they're awesome!

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Wool is NOT outdated! I live on the U.P. and use wool, pile and other synthetics like Under Armour on a regular basis. Merino wool is very comfortable and if you have some older wool that is itchy just wear a layer of UA between that and your bare skin. One advantage wool has over some of the newer synthetics is that you can go to something like The Sportsmans Guide and get 4 pair of surplus wool army pants and a surplus wool sweater for 24 bucks! BTW, read up a little on why wool keeps you warm, the itchier the wool is the better.

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Agreed. I have a wollen shirt, and a wollen hunting jacket. When I joined the army in 65, I was issued the old British Battledress - which was all itchy heavy brown wool. You wore unsupported underwear that extended to just above your knees. Otherwise your thighes would be rubbed raw. I don't remember being cold. I also don't remember washing it.

I wear my wollies ice fishing and it works. I certainly don't cut a fashon statement - then I don't care.

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Wool is definitely not outdated. It’s actually experiencing a new wave of popularity as a natural, renewable fiber that works in a variety of outdoor applications.

It helps regulate your temperature in a wider range of temps, even when wet. It’s odor-resistant because it doesn’t hold onto sweat or the odor-producing bacteria in it. And it’s a renewable (versus synthetic) material (although the treatment of the sheep and how the wool is processed can be an issue for some).

For evidence of wool’s popularity we have the following companies, which focus on wool layers:

Smartwool
http://www.trailspace.com/gear/smartwool/

Ibex
http://www.trailspace.com/gear/ibex/

Icebreaker
http://www.trailspace.com/gear/icebreaker/

And many more companies—like Patagonia, Isis, REI, Woolrich, GoLite, and on and on—offer some wool or partially-wool base- and mid-layers and outerwear.

There are a ton of wool options out there, beyond socks.

But, if you already have something that works for you, use that. Forget the cotton though, unless it's summer, very dry, and there's absolutely no chance you'll have to spend time outdoors in wet cotton clothes.

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There are plenty of posts on layering here and it is a regular topic on other hiking websites. I bet if you do a Yahoo or Google search, you will many articles on it.

I think of layering as a three part system-a base layer (underwear); an insulating layer; and a shell-waterproof or water resistant and windproof. There are hard shells, soft shells, synthetic and natural fibers-fleece (synthetic), down and wool and the various breatheable fabrics such as Gore-tex, plus the non-breatheable ones. Companies like Patagonia have their own proprietary fabrics like Capilene or some waterproof breatheable fabric.

Sorting all this out is confusing and tedious.

How you use various products for layering will depend on the weather. I have a limited selection personally,but some people have big collections for different conditions,

I used to live in northern Ohio, so I know what the weather is like there. Miserable in winter-damp and wet. Some places, once it gets cold, get only snow, not rain, but unless things have changed, Ohio gets rain and snow, so that is more of a challenge.

Look up wool on Wikipedia and you will see a pretty good article on how it works,

My layers are synthetic Jockey briefs (yes, even those should not be cotton);Patagonia Capilene base layer-long sleeve top and bottoms; a light fleece jacket; REI Elements rain jacket and Marmot Precip rain pants.

I can wear this combo in moderately cold weather and rain and be fine and I am someone who gets cold easily. I have also worn this combo while skiing or snowshoeing where I am generating a lot of heat. Also-get a wool or synthetic beanie or watch cap of some type-I have an old wool one, plus a Turtlefur brand, which is my favorite. For colder weather, I have balaclava/mask combo. I often wear gloves, even in moderately cold weather. I have a pair of light OR gloves, plus ski gloves and a pair of mitts.

When it gets cold (by my standards, not Canadian cold), I wear a down jacket and synthetic insulated pants for sitting around or at night. I also have a pair of fleece pants I picked up years ago. They are great hut pants.

I have wool socks and a wool pullover, but those are the old style wool and are itchy. I have a couple of wool sweaters, but don't really use them for hiking, although they would be fine, if a bit heavy.

As already said, cotton is not for winter or damp and cold weather. The problem is once it gets wet, it loses any insulating properties it had and because it is wet, it conducts heat away from your body much faster than when dry. You can experiment by wetting out your jeans and see how warm you are even in mild temps. Save your cotton stuff for warm weather where you want to be cooling off your body. Think about how heavy jeans and t-shirts are when you pull them out of the washer. In contrast, my fleece pants and jacket are almost dry when I pull them out. Big difference.

Wet wool or fleece will keep you warm because they dry fairly quickly and don't absorb a lot of water. Wool absorbs more water than a synthetic, but it dries faster than cotton,and in contrast to cotton, stays warm, even if wet.

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I just got back from 2 hours and twenty minutes of cross country skiing. It is 13 degrees out, winds are 25 gusting to 40 or more, and snowing. I wore an Under Armour Cold Gear top and winter weight cycling pants as a base layer. Over that I had a pair of wool pants and two pile jackets. The top jacket has some wind resistant stuff on it so it cuts the wind pretty well. I wore a poly pro balaclava that covered everything but my eyes, thin wool gloves, and a thin wool sock with a heavier wool sock over it. I was warm the whole time to the point where I had to unzip jackets and pull the balaclava away from my face to regulate my temps. (And yes, I was carrying a small back pack with food, water, and enough stuff to survive overnight if I needed to, even though the trail I was on has good cell coverage.)

Even after heading in to a coffee shop and letting the snow that was on my pants melt I was still warm when I went back outside. A good spot to find some wool clothing would be the October 2007 edition of Backpacker. Four of the eight lighweight tops listed were made of wool. For heavier outerwear I can recommend Stormy Kromer and Filsons from personal experience.

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It's interesting how wool is being re-discovered as a fantastic fabric for winter wear. I get a kick out of people I see on the trail well bundled on the torso (fleece, down jackets) but wearing just a pair of jeans over their legs. Personally, I like to be warm and comfortable over my whole body - not just my torso and arms!

One thing I really like about wool is, unlike poly-pro, it doesn't get foul smelling as fast when you're wearing it day after day.

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Just got back from 4 days at the Bear Valley Telemark Festival, where I camped out in glorious weather. It was great to get out from the city on a cold clear Sierra night and see the stars again. This was a fairly warm Telefest, only getting down to about 10F on the coldest night. So layering was essential - start the morning with several layers, then shed them as the day went on, until the 45 to 50F temperatures of midafternoon, then add back on for the evening festivities as the temperature dropped back to 25F or so by the time we climbed back into our tents.

To get to the topic, lots of excellent posts here. In brief, "cotton kills" because it holds moisture and because when the fibers get wet, they collapse, causing the loss of insulation that Tom mentioned. Jeans are one of the worst in this respect.

Merino wool has been mentioned. Unlike traditional wool, it does not itch. But contrary to some of the posts, wool does pick up odors, as those of us who have spent a couple weeks in snow conditions can attest. It is not as severe as the old versions of polypro. The newer versions of polypro and polyester stay fairly odor-free even after 3 or 4 weeks of an expedition, and are equivalent to merino in that respect. However, keep in mind that synthetics are derived from petroleum and coal for the most part (some are derived from plant sources).

Tom, excellent summary on layering and fabrics.

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Bill - I agree that wool DOES hold odors - but compared to my first gen patagonia pile pullover (it was terrible for odors - ) it's a major improvement! I almost got kicked out of a fast food place when I emerged, ripe from a week in the cold in a fleece that I'd had on the whole time.

As for the source of PP - much of it comes from recycled plastics - so it's probably as "friendly" as anything.

Wool does have a safety advantage over PP, however, when exposed to heat it won't burn easily NOR will it melt onto your skin (which hurts like a bugger - as I learned one night when my stove flared and a PP glove ignited).

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I spent this weekend on the south shore of Lake Superior, with temps at zero Fahrenheit or below and winds from 30-50 mph; in fact, the Mackinac bridge was closed Sunday because of the wind and snow.

I wore mostly wool and kept warm while walking: merino wool long underwear, M 1951 wool pants, a medium-weight wool shirt and a Filson Mackinaw wool jacket. However, I needed something to block the wind, so I wore a large cotton blend anorak over everything. The anorak did a good job of blocking the wind, but I would not wear it in warmer weather where the snow might melt and make it wet. The large belly pocket is great for keeping hands out of the wind.

Garrett and Alexandra Conover favor an Egyptian cotton anorak as an outer shell for traveling in colder weather because it is so breathable.

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Fred commented

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much of it comes from recycled plastics

Patagonia is collecting your old synthetic clothing (long johns, pile jackets, etc) for recycling. If you have a nearby Patagonia store (we have one here in Palo Alto), you can drop it off there. There was a bin at the Bear Valley Telemark Festival, and Pata has bins at other events as well. Some outdoor stores collect the clothing as well.

Fred is absolutely correct about the safety aspect. Barb and I try to wear wool and/or cotton when we fly, since fire is a common occurence in plane crashes. Given the restrictions on luggage (how much extra was that that United wants for the second checked bag) and the need to have critical gear with you when going on expeditions, like our Africa trip in December(and not in checked luggage which gets lost way too often), we often wear a lot of our sub-zero clothes on flights (and my plastic climbing boots as well). I ended up on the Kahiltna Glacier one time without my boots or goretex outer layers, thanks to a mislaid bag. Luckily it had gotten flown up on the plane ahead of me, but it could have been a problem.

As Fred said, even if the synthetic clothes don't actually catch on fire, the melted stuff produces a horrendous and painful burn. Wool doesn't ignite, nor does cotton. (having grown up on the Akimel O'Odham reservation for 10 of my first 12 years, I have a preference for Pima cotton - Pima is the name given to the Akimel O'Odham by the Spaniards when they got to Arizona, and the fields where Pima cotton was developed were right across the road from where I lived).

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I think some of us have naturally stinkier sweat than others (and I mean myself here). For me it's far more evident when wearing synthetics. Pretty much any synthetic baselayer that I run, hike, or backpack in, and therefore sweat in, gets pretty stinky really fast (obviously more stinky the more I sweat in it, especially in summer). There's no way I'd stay odor-free for weeks (even in winter), but I'm impressed by others who can.

The least-stinky synthetic piece I have is OR's Essence Tee, which is 88% polypro and 12% merino wool. I love that shirt. I can actually run or hike/backpack in it several days in a row without offending people.

Also, as Bill and Fred mentioned, Patagonia does recycle your stuff: Patagonia fleece, Polartec fleece from any manufacturer, and Patagonia organic cotton T-shirts. They're adding nylon 6 recycling this year (surf pants for spring/summer and hard shells for fall/winter).

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First Post - Quick Observation:

I have been forced to buy a Wool knit watch-cap (in the Army). I have used it several mornings during freezing weather for PT with great results. It replaced my fleece skull cap. I also have a smart-wool skull cap. This past weekend after a 2 day hiking trip with overnight temps nearing 32F, I decided to ditch the "cool" fabrics for my wool knit cap and I was extremely please. True - if it gets wet it will be a little uncomfortable compared to the fleece, moisture wicking, or smart-wool materials - but if you aren't getting soaked, it is my #1 choice.

Its also worth mentioning that its about a quarter of the cost of a similar Smart-Wool cap, or half the cost of a cheep fleece cap. I paid $5 for mine.

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Thanks Bill. Where my knowledge is lacking is all the new softshells of one kind or another and the new breatheable fabrics. I only have one Gore-tex parka and limited time in it in cold weather.

As I said earlier, there are so many different fabrics to choose from for each layer that there must be hundreds of combinations, if not thousands. I know of at least five or six popular brands of base layers (most of which are a polyester or wool of some kind), dozens of fleece jackets in various weights, plus softshells with or without wind or water resistant layers and dozens of hard shells made of Gore-tex and its competitors, plus various proprietary fabrics such as REI's Element or Marmot's Precip fabrics that are brand specific. Then there are dozens of insulated garments with down,or a variety of synthetic insulators and various outer fabrics.

One consideration, which has been discussed here before about bags, is that in cold wet weather, synthetic insulation has an edge over down, if there is a chance the down will get wet. Wet down will lose its insulating property while wet synthetic insulators will keep theirs because of the difference physical characteristics of down and synthetics.

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I am sure this has been answered in posts before but what is a good website to order this stuff off of? I googled some stuff but would be more comfortable with insider input.

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Funny with Patagonia - one reason I bought my first fleece from them was it was made from recycled plastic soda bottles ..... somehow I found that comforting (and kinda cool as well).

Turneej - where to buy this stuff? Depends on what you want to spend. You can get really basic fleeced at old navy (it'll last a little while) - sierratradingpost.com is a reliable source (they discount high end overstocks and discontinued products, so you can end up with a TNF jacket at an Old Navy price), llbean.com, campmore, ems, rei - there are tons of places to buy gear.

Having said that, I tend to shop locally - just a personal preference - but I'd rather put the dollars into a small, local retail shop owners pocket than line some corporate account -

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Hi, turneej, I may be biased, but I like to think of us, Trailspace, as a good gear guide site: http://www.trailspace.com/gear/

While we don't sell gear or clothing/outerwear, you can get "where to buy" information for available products on individual product pages.

There you can compare prices and availability and see reviews and product information for an item, like say, the Patagonia Wool 3 Zip Neck: http://www.trailspace.com/gear/patagonia/wool-3-zip-neck/

You also can look at gear reviews/info by type: http://www.trailspace.com/gear/

For example, base layers:
http://www.trailspace.com/gear/base-layers/

Or browse the brands first:
http://www.trailspace.com/gear/brands/

The Marketplace page has links to some of Trailspace’s retail partners:
http://www.trailspace.com/marketplace/

I'm sure others can share who their favorite companies to deal with are.

Hope that helps!

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I like Sierra Trading Post. You just have to strike while the iron is hot. They do a lot of closouts, so when it's gone, it's gone! Great prices though.

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Army/Navy surplus websites are a good source for wool garments; just make sure it's the real stuff. I have purchased unissued M-1951 shirt and field pants for less than $20.00. The stuff may be 50 years old, but you rarely see clothing of that quality, and you never see it at that price.

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Thrift stores can be a good source for wool clothes as well, so long as you don't mind someone elses castoffs. I've found a couple wool shirts for less than two bucks each, same applies to sweaters. A pair of old wool suit trousers make dandy hiking pants for moderate weather (and you look rather natty as well!). Add to that you're generally helping out a charity AND keeping stuff out of the landfills in the bargain - it really makes sense.

Of course, if you're one of those backcountry fashion people, it's unlikely that you'll find the lastest in North Face fashion at a Goodwill store, but if (like me) you're a "function over fashion" kinda person (and somewhat of a cheapskate) it can work out great.

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I was born and raised in northern Alberta (fort mcmurray) and spent my childhood outside on a sled, skidoo, etc. I was ALWAYS cold and my feet froze. My parents spent allot of money on trying to keep me warm. I now know why I was always cold. Cotton. The would dress me up in the stuff and plug me into winter boots and a winter suit. Well my feet sweat like a fat mans back (sorry for any offense to anyone) and they would freeze almost instantly.

This is just my personal preference for the cold:
Synth tech socks (any brand, just wicking)
Synth wicking long unerwear
Fleece pants
insulated (synth) long neck biking shirt
Good quality fleece jacket with pit zips
GORE-TEX coat (3 layer with pit zips)
Gore-TEX bib ski pants
-30 Sorel winter boots
Wool dickie and touque
two layer snowboard mitts (removable liner)
Ski goggles when really really cold

This setup has seen me work and play outside for over 8 hours with only needing to change my socks. The ability to open up your pit zips on your coats makes all the differance to regulating your temp and keeping from sweeting. Gore-tex is worth its weight in gold.

The only way it could be better is to get one of those expedition goose down one piece suits... that would be nice :)

As this topic is about cold weather, I dont understand why some people sleep in their bags with clothes on. I go commando with a silk bag liner and have never been warmer.

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All those sources on cotton in cold are correct -- for many reasons.

1. It takes forever to dry.

2. It is heavy.

3. It has no insulating properties when wet.

4. It is a poor insulator compared to wool or polyester fleece.

If you are willing to spend the money on Under Armor (which is about 30% overpriced compared to other brands like DuoFold or REI) why not buy long-sleeved expedition weight long underwear then put a layer of 300 fleece over that with a lightweight nylon jacket. I am from SE Michigan (it's cold here, too) and lived in the UP for 6 years. Most of the time I wear heavyweight fleece and a nylon jacket unless it is below zero then I go with a down sweeater.

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I went to the army surplus store and picked up some polypro. pants and top. I broke out my fleece (I didnt know it was better than my cotton stuff). Now that I have figured all this out the weather should be warming up. As for why I wear Under Armor, you get a lot of it free when you are an athlete at one of the schools they sponsor.

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Steepandcheap.com - closeout prices on outdoor gear, and it's always changing - unless you're in the industry, you can't beat the price

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