I Think I Hate Layering! how do I figure it out?

I am gathering gear for my Everest Base Camp Trek in March. I received a gear list from Mountain Madness so that I will have the proper stuff. I live at about 2500 feet in las Vegas and hike primarily in the heat, so not layering much in my day hikes. I keep a raincoat in the pack. That about covers my layering experience. So, here is what I ahve for the Big Trip and I think I may have screwed up:

UPPER BODDY:

BASE: I have a Polorteck long sleeve undershirt

BASE? I have two short sleeve REI half zip shirts that are one of the synthetic wicking fabricks. Also two long sleeve versions.

Mid? I have a choice of 1) North Face Windwall jacket I got at the Red Rock Rodevous. 2) North Face Fleece Jacket. 3) First Ascent Hangfire Hoodie 4) obermayer Fleece half zip pullover

HardShell: Mountain Hardwear Back Country Recon Jacket

Insulation: Mountain Hardwear Nitrous (800 fill)

Rain: Marmot Precip

LOWER BODY:

Base: (over my undies) Polartek Long Underwear

? Soft Shell REI Mistral Pants, and I also have a pair of very light weight Columbias with the zip off lower leg.

Rain: Marmot Precip

So that is what I have accumulated. I also have some lycra tights for the leg warmth.But to tell you the truth...I am confused about what when and where.  I also think I acrewed up because the down will NOT fil over that Mountain hardwear hard shell...so where to now?

the edit was typo corrections.

Like you, I live in a hot climate.  Ocala Florida.  Layering in the winter amounts to adding a t-shirt on really cold days. 

The one thing I can definitely recommend is wool for your base layer. I got my first wool shirt (stoic merino 150 short sleeve) and wore it for three days straight on the AT. IT DID NOT SMELL.  I was amazed. I knew that wool wasn't supposed to develop the "funk" but didn't know it was this immune. I can wear a cotton shirt overnight and it will stink.  I wore this shirt 3 days, 2 nights and not a trace of BO on it.  I'm just guessing that you won't be getting too many baths on the way to base camp and I would highly recommend wool not only is it warm, it isn't itchy if you get the right weave and it won't get nearly as stinky as synthetic or cotton with a few days wear.

I would find out how much the temp is going to change during the day. If it varies much you want an number of thin layers so you can adjust.  If it doesn't change much I would guess that 3 or 4 would be enough.  Other than that I don't have any other advice other than stay warm and have fun.

Thanks. That stink thing has been a concern of mine I know that the work it tales to gain as much altitude as I will means some heavy duty sweating for me. I also know that there will only be a couple cloths wash and shower ops. So.....I am checking this stuff out. At least for under everything else if not more. I appreciate the help....any tips on the hard shell/down stuff and how layer the down and hte rain stuff and hard shell?

I don’t know about wool not stinking; my tent mates will debate that!

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Your washing opportunities will be determined mainly by your desire to be fresh.  A pot of hot water, a little soap, a hand towel and a tent to get out of the wind is all you need.  I have washed up on high altitude trips, though must say I got some funny looks from my traveling companions.  It sounds colder than it really is.

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Lower body:

I prefer lycra tights to long johns for the bottom skin layer, as they are a good outer layer when laboring up hill, whereas long johns tend to get tattered under such application and feel too breezy.  I also like to bring down pants for camp side warmth on cold trips.  They are more comfortable, and augment your sleeping bag if you need more warmth.

Upper body:

It appears you have a sufficient wardrobe, perhaps too many articles.  Take some cold trips this season and experiment which layering combinations work best for you. 

My daytime cold set up is:

skin layer = cheap Hawaiian shirt (works as well as expensive geeky looking tec shirts)  When laboring up hill I’ll sometime strip to just this shirt and a hardshell.  When I stop to rest I insert a fleece top, or down jacket for warmth.  If it is really cold, I’ll go with the Hawaiian shirt, then one or two long sleeve fleece, then a hard shell if its breezy.  If still not warm enough I go Hawaiian shirt, then fleece, then soft shell down.  The down coat is lofted to fit conditions, assuming it is the primary in-camp article for warmth.

Daytime bottom layer is more simple, lycra under board shorts, and gaitors, If needed I’ll put on  a second lycra layer and/or hard shell bottoms.  If really cold, the down pants (rarely) come out.

I found overall the key to daytime warmth is constant movement, and layering to minimize sweat, better off a little chilly than hot and sweaty.

Night time set up:

The night time set up doesn’t get worn until the physical camp chores are done, such as grading tent platforms or digging caves.

Bottoms are lycra and board shorts, down pants under hardshell.  Top layer is Hawaiin shirt, one fleece, and down soft shell. 

Head and hands. 

I bring two warm wool balaclavas, doubling up when temperature dictates.  I bring several sets of gloves.  Bring extra in case  a tear or lost glove, it does happen.  I bring two pairs of ski gloves on skiing trips; or one pair ski and one tec glove system on technical trips.  For camp comfort I also bring wool XC ski gloves and home made fleece lined overmits.

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Whatever you bring along, make sure articles are sized for their designated position in your layering system.  For example your hard shell needs to be large enough to fit all anticipated under layers without compressing those layers.  If outer layers constrict inner layers, it will diminish overall insulating capability of your system.  You may find the articles selected for your current activities will not suffice for the Big Trip.  For example many people buy a hard shell for rain, capable of fitting only minimal layers underneath.  It may not accommodate the layers you intend to go with.  I use two down sweaters for my upper down layer for most cold winter applications, but if you are going to places with below zero day time temps you probably will require an expedition duty down soft shell.  I also bring along an alpaca scarf to wrap my neck, eliminating the cold draft I get there. Take care in your goggle selection; I prefer amber (for overcast days) lenses.  Make sure the goggle selected has good ventilation otherwise you will be contending with condensation problems, limiting your vision, as well as you enjoyment.  Lastly – especially as a woman - you will want a quality moisturizing cream/sun screen.  High altitude really dries out the face and hands.

Ed

Thanks Ed! I really appreciate your help. Because this is a supported expedition and we have sherpas and yaks, I will be able to bring more than if just packing. Also, evening chores consist of tea and relaxing by the stove in the tea house. (They are generally unheated except one stove of fire in the eating location. Base camp will also be set up for us. I think I got everything covered. I have Julbo Glacier Goggles and they seem to be working out on my hot hikes, though if I look up the heat fogs them. In cooler temps They might vent better. I can loosen them if not and still hve great eye protection.

Just a question; Are you are going to 17K feet without a tryout climb?

I'd try out the gear on an Adams/Rainier/Denali climb to see how it works and to see if your trip to altitude will be successfull or end badly and early due to elevation related medical issues. 

As far as gear goes, your guide will have better info on combinations based on current local conditions.  Bring everything!  Also bring extra $$ to buy things you forgot last minute-- doo doo happens.  Listen to people who were there recently (like, last week or so).

These guides show what they wear on Rainier, which is 5K feet lower than where you are headed:

http://vimeo.com/27123776

I won't have the ability to get to Washington to hike at all before my trip. I am hiking around 10k here and trying to get to something higher but circumstances limit that for me.  I am going to 18.5k and it is all hike, nothing tech. I ahve tried all non weather related gear extensively, but not the cold weather stuff. Hope to get up to Charleston in the cooler weather this fall. that tops at around 12k I think.

My treking company provided the list but it reads for the hiker that uses this stuff every day. had I remained in Seattle, I would likely know this stuff, but living and hiking in Vegas....a shirt and a jacket is all I ever need. I may just be over thinking it. I put the hard shell over the down last night and the hard shell is big enough not to crush the down so that is a relief.  May go to colorado and hang out up high for a weekend to see what happens......

This thought popped into my head:

Do you know anybody with access to a meat locker? (I don't know if a locker gets cold enough)

Also Yosemite in the winter is not exactly warm. You could try one of the Curry Camp tents and not heat it. I would imagine you could find some windy areas there too.

@Ed

My shirt didn't smell.  Now I had some smell but even my wife said the shirt didn't smell much.

I am going to try to get out in the cold. This is a high desert so will head up somewhere and try the gear. Yeah...my concern is the cloths smelling more than me. I will have ways to get the funk off, we are staying in tea houses may not have access to water to wash cloths in.....not too sure. No tent camping involved until base camp for one night. Those tents are more like huts. I thought it was cooling off here, but back up to the 90's in day and only 50's at night.

The down parka looses its warming ability when it is compressed.  It is reserved for dry cold conditions and is worn as a top layer during extreme cold/wind, over the toip of everything else.

Grocery stores keep ice cream at -20 f and at high hunidity.  If you can get in there to test stuff, you will get an idea of its capabilities. 

Karen,

you have plenty of places within a short distance of Lost Wages to try out your warmth/cold combinations. You are just a few hours drive from the Sierra and White Mountains (right on the NV/CA border). Reno and the Tahoe area are just up the road and already accumulating the winter snow. There is a Patagonia Outlet in Reno that has knowledgable sales people and really good prices on gear that is designed for exactly the conditions you are headed into. If you are a Sierra Club member, consider heading for Donner Pass and the Sierra Club's Clair Tappaan Lodge. Peter Lemkuhl, the manager, will be happy to go over layering and preparation for Himalayan trekking with you (tell him I sent you). Actually, you don't even have to be a SC member - all are welcome (members get a discount on the lodging and meals). And you could hike out to one of the 5 Sierra Club huts to spend a night in the back country. If you time it right, I might even be there to provide some mentoring.

Layering is actually very simple and common sense. There are basically 3 "layers" in the system -WWW (= Wicking, Warmth, Wind/Water). I use this in the backpacking and winter camping courses I teach.

The basic idea is pretty simple - the only complication is the plethora of possible choices. The simple combination is Wicking (1 pair of light, 1 pair of midweight longjohns); Warmth (1 pair microfiber pants, 1 DriClime shirt, 1 NanoPuff jacket, 1 softshell); Wind/Water (1 hardshell jacket, 1 hardshell pant/bib). Start the day's hike on the slightly cool side, and adjust the layers as the day goes on by adding or subtracting layers as needed to stay cooler or warmer and to get more/less ventilation/wind protection/water protection.

Now, the details (you can read this now or come back to it later) -

Fabrics - Your clothing should be wool or synthetic. Some people like silk for a very light skin layer. Avoid cotton. The reason is that cotton absorbs and holds moisture, plus the cotton fibers tend to collapse. The result is a lot of water that stays around and conducts heat rapidly away from your body. The good synthetics and merino wool wick the moisture away so it can evaporate and no longer conduct heat away from your body.

Wicking - the skin layer needs to wick the sweat and perspiration outward. This is where your long underwear goes. It can be either one of the modern synthetics or merino wool (merino is soft and does not itch, plus is somewhat wicking and tends to not build up a stink). The best of the modern synthetics is Patagonia's Capilene, though I also use Campmor's store brand. The longies come in 3 levels - light, midweight, and expedition. Separate top and bottoms are easier to adjust than a "union suit" or "Farmer John". You might find a light bottom with a midweight top is good for a particular day, for example. On treks, many people will take one light and one midweight set, starting with light, then going to midweight, then going to both if it gets really cold. You aren't going on the mountain, so the expedition-weight is not needed (unless you are really cold-blooded). You will want a "standard" underwear set of sports bra and "boy" panties (not strings, unless you don't mind the chafing). Ex Officio and a couple other companies make underwear that can be washed out daily and dry overnight that wicks well.

Warmth - This is your insulating layer. As with the longies, it is actually a combination of thinner layers. This allows better adjustment to the temperature than a single heavy layer. Microfiber works well for pants. (side note - get front-zip or full crotch-zip pants for both your warmth layer and wind/water layer; you will find it convenient as a woman on a trek to get one of the funnels so you don't have to completely bare yourself to answer the call of nature - practice at home first). You may also want a pair of fleece pants or one of the softshells, like Schoeler fabric. Patagonia, Marmot, Mountain Hardwear, Cloudveil, and other companies make pants and jackets from Schoeler and similar fabrics. Fleece jackets are good for the insulating layer on top. You might also consider filled jackets or vests, like Patagonia's NanoPuff and similar jackets that pack very small, yet provide a lot of warmth (and a wide comfort range). Marmot's DriClime is an interesting shirt/jacket concept that has a thin fleece with a windproof shell. On my last two expeditions (Antarctica and the Cordillera Blanca region of the Andes), my Warmth layer consisted of a DriClime shell, a NanoPuff jacket, a Marmot softshell, and when it got pretty cold, a Integral Designs Dolomiti hooded jacket). The pants were Patagonia's Alpine Guide pants for the Andes plus a pair of Feathered Friends down pants for Antarctica (you won't need anything that warm for your trek.

Wind/Water - this is your "weather-beater" layer. A Goretex or (my preference) eVent hardshell jacket is windproof plus waterproof, plus breathes reasonably well (eVent better than Goretex). I am afraid you will find that the PreCip jacket does not breathe well at all! Be sure your jacket has pitzips! When hiking in the rain (and on your trek, at the lower altitudes), you will really appreciate the ventilation of pitzips. Over the years, I have acquired several jackets from Marmot (best for me, especially the Alpinist 3 which is now worn out), Wild Things (order direct from their North Conway, NH shop - second only to the Marmot, and not by much), and Patagonia (haven't tried this out under real conditions yet, but looks like it will do well). Your soft shell jacket (and pants) are somewhat water repellent, but not really waterproof. So you do need a real waterproof layer. As for the pants, I prefer bibs, though a salopette-style is ok. Just be sure it has full side zips, both for ventilation and for the "dropseat" to answer the call of nature. Marmot has (had?) a full crotch zipper for some of their styles, which is pretty convenient for a quick #1 stop (if you have the funnel or in really cold conditions). A lot of people find, though, that hiking with Goretex or eVent  pants in the rain can get overly warm. If your soft-shell pants dry quickly and/or are fairly water-resistant, you might be able to get along without a full waterproof/breathable pant. One thing a lot of trekkers do is just wear the wpb pant over the longjohns without another pant, plus use the velcro flap over the zipper to hold the sides of the legs slightly open for ventilation.

Oh, about the washing. You are in the outdoors. Everybody stinks after the first few days. You can wash the skin layers nightly and they will dry overnight, if you use the Ex Officio or similar underwear. After the first few days, no one will notice. If you get to a teahouse that has good shower facilities, take a long shower. Otherwise, don't worry.

WOW! Now that is lots of good meat! I'd love to go to the lodge, but weekends away are hard because of my elderly father I care for.....the trek itself really took planning to get the time and coverage I need in order to be gone from him. I think I will try some day hikes in Utah. Or the higher stuff around here has snow now too.

Bill gave you an extensive and good introduction to the layering system. I just wanted to add a personal comment based on the fact that some of us (me one of them) sweat quite a lot. Especially when we have to do hard work like going uphill with a heavy pack. When stopping for a break it quickly gets cold, and besides you feel uncomfortabel for beeing just wet.

For me a bottom layer of polypro net has been the best solution. I have used wool garments before, but now it is only net underwear. The polypro is virtually indestructible too. I use the 5-6 sets I have about 80% of the time all year round, and the only garment that has some marked wear is one long sleeved shirt where the watch has damaged the sleeve end. Expensive yes, but worth every penny for those where sweat is an issue.

The net underwear is available in wool too. But a friend of me complained about the durability and I have stayed with the polypro version. Easy to wash up also, and it even may be put on after just whipping it dry against a stone or similar. Chilly just for a moment, then you're OK. :)

The reason they work so well is that the polypro sucks up the sweat from the body but it does not keep it inside the fibres. It transports the moisture to the next layer. But the net keeps the next layer away from your skin, and you therefore does not feel so wet as before.

I use this brand but there are perhaps others in your country. Even in cold winter I use just the super thermo and a windstopper if the weather is not extremey harsh. Then I add a extra wool middle layer. When moving this has up till now always been enough.

Otto

giftogab said:

..I have Julbo Glacier Goggles...

Julbo doesn't currently have a product going by that specific name.  Are these glasses or goggles - actually it doesn't matter, you'll need both.  If your goggles are fogging in warm weather, they will be worse in the cold.  There are anti-fog treatments you can apply to reduce fogging.

Ed

whomeworry said:

giftogab said:

..I have Julbo Glacier Goggles...

Julbo doesn't currently have a product going by that specific name.  Are these glasses or goggles ?

Ed

 Actually, she's referencing the Julio Iglesias designer-series googles.   A 'typo' on her part.

~ r2 ~

On the whole layering thing as my grandfather use to tell me growing up its easier to take it off if ya have it than put it on if ya don't lol.

This is a great thread...thanks for all the good stuff everyone.

Robert Rowe said:

whomeworry said:

giftogab said:

..I have Julbo Glacier Goggles...

Julbo doesn't currently have a product going by that specific name.  Are these glasses or goggles ?

Ed

 Actually, she's referencing the Julio Iglesias designer-series googles.   A 'typo' on her part.

~ r2 ~

 Designer googles?  Must be expensive. 

I'm late to the party, but here's the thing I try to remember with layering -

in extreme temps and weather, you are never truly comfortable. It is a constant game of clothes on and clothes off. This needs to be done frequently in order for you to properly maintain your body temp in a way that won't make you too cold or too hot.

Too hot can make you sweat. Trapping that sweat and not properly shedding layers can get you killed.

oh, and there's not a huge difference between different pieces that are all meant to cover the same layer. Baselayers, midlayers, and outer layers are all essentially the same within their own categories.

There may be slight differences with how they help you vent or how easily you can shed or add layers, but other than that no real difference, just more products to sell for a better profit.

My opinion is that your best bet is to just make a purchase on the layers you still need, basing that purchase on research for where you are going. Then take the layers out for many test runs before hitting the trek. This will help you to understand how your layering system works so you can use it well. There are an infinite number of combinations you could use for layering, but just picking one and being familiar with it is the best bet.

Short video about layering for Rainer- similiar to what you would require for base camp at Everest. Keep in mind Whittakers relationship with the First Ascent line, and rather look at the "system" he employs then the exact pieces.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPl19PALGfE&feature=player_embedded

Jake, Pete did not recommend a specific brand and model for each layer in a blatant manner. Between Pete and Brent, they were pretty generic. If you are not familiar with the specific items, you might not even notice the brand. And between the two of them, they had items from at least 5 manufacturers that I was able to recognize. For example, the down sweater, which was the closest to specifying a brand and model (the model name was mentioned briefly), is very similar to versions from Marmot, Patagonia, Wild Things, TNF, and others besides Eddie Bauer. The Primaloft sweater that Brent showed was a different company, but is the synthetic equivalent. The advantage of the synth (and Primaloft in particular) is that when down gets wet (as mentioned in another post), it tends to collapse, while Primaloft does not hold the moisture (sweat, melting snow, rain), hence retains a lot of its insulating value.

The "system", by the way, was very close to what I outlined in my post above, except that I did not include the thicker filled jacket that Brent carries.

I understand that they didn't mention a specific brand each time but if you are familiar with the FA line you will know the majority of those products. That said I'm not advocating against First Ascent, quite the opposite and have had quite a few conversations with other members, mainly iclimb, about the quality of their products. I just wanted giftogab, or any one else for that matter, to be able to use the video as a jumping off point to plan a layering system.

What other manufactor were you able to pick out? I just went through it again and couldn't really see any specifically. Lie you said though if you aren't familiar with a line of products its hard to identify them. Also I believe that Primaloft jacket is the Ignitor jacket by FA????

Jake W said:

... if you are familiar with the FA line you will know the majority of those products. ...

What other manufactor were you able to pick out? I just went through it again and couldn't really see any specifically. Lie you said though if you aren't familiar with a line of products its hard to identify them....

 Exactly my point! If you are very familiar with the gear (and yeah, a lot of Trailspace members are gearheads, whether we admit it or not), then you can spot specific brands (test - what brands of clothing and what brand of poles do I have in my avatar? No fair looking back through my posts where I name some of them).

In the Facebook clip (ooops! I named the website, which by now almost everyone knows is is increasingly dominated by commercial ads posted by the companies) you can spot most of the specific models by pausing the clip and zooming in, IF you happen to be familiar with them or, as some here do, go to the trade shows. OTOH, if you had not specifically pointed out that EB had product placements, I doubt that more than a half dozen viewers from here would have spotted the specific items, and most wouldn't have cared. 

With all the posts that come from all the members giving a plethora of recommendations (for and against), anyone asking for recommendations here will not lack for suggestions of a half dozen different brands and models of any type of gear (or, as in another thread, which breed of dog to take hiking with you).

Ok...sorry about not being accurate in my name for my galsses. They are Julbo Explorers.

http://www.julbousa.com/mountain/explorer/

I have them and my perscription Ray Bans and am not getting any goggles. They are not on my list provided by Mountain Madness.

I am going with Scott Fishcer's company Mountain Madness out of Seattle:

http://www.mountainmadness.com/

The supported trek cost 3750.00 and the ticket to Nepal another 1800. i ahve bought all the gear I am supposed to according to my list in an abundance of caution and because i hve little gear here for what I normally do in the desert. Not a big overnighter, so really had simply a small day pack, pants, boots, jacket and shirt. Everything else, I got for the trip so that was another couple thousand dollars. So a THIRD form of eye protection is too much for even me to consider. I have done well on prices with sales and Steep n Cheap. Trying to keep the whole trip under 10k.

As far as the glases steaming up, I have not takent them in for fitting yet. Once I do taht I am confident that I won't need to secure them so tightly to my face. I little ear piece bending and fitting will cure that need and the vents should function much better.

You won't need goggles for trekking. The Julbos will do just fine. But one comment based on personal experience - Being old enough to have presbyopia, I usually wear bifocals (and Barb uses "blended" lenses). I think Karen is way too young to need such glasses, but most people wearing bifocals (or blended lenses or, gasp, trifocals) find that going down steep trails or even stairs is a bit uncomfortable. Use single-focal glasses with your distance prescription for the hiking. I find that it makes a huge difference to not have that jump in magnification that bifocals give when doing steep hills (or even not so steep downhills sometimes).

I find that "Transitions" (the type that darkens and lightens automatically with the brightness of the light) work well for everything except on snow at altitude. I do like my Julbo wraparound glacier glasses, though. I got Opticus (Boulder, CO, does glacier glasses via mail-order) to put a very dark Transition-type prescription lens in them.

Bill S...you are far tooooo kind! I turned 50 in February and wear the bifocals that are basically trifocals. But if I don't wear glasses at all I am pretty dang good other than reading. I have been wearing teh Ray Ban tri's for two years diring hikes, but do like the Julbo non prescriptions just as well and think I will leave tham at non precrip and have they rpescrips for back up and to read outside with my kindle on rests. I was advised to look into Opticus if I wanted to go prescrip though...

get outside and test yourself and your gear

Callahan said:

get outside and test yourself and your gear

 Short, Sweet, to the point. That is what I have been doing...but now gonna get out in the cold with the cold weather gear......though the weather jumped back up to 90's so may be a few weeks off from breaking out the big agnes bag. Thanks! I will review my gear too when I have tested it appropriately.

Have fun tooooooo

Roger that!

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