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Posted by Bill S on June 11, 2007 at 8:14:35 pm EDT
In reply to clove hitch for tie in's posted by FMD on June 8, 2007 at 11:24:32 am EDT

FMD -
After re-reading your comments several times, I am getting the impression that you are talking about somehow using the clove hitch on a carabiner as a belay device. I get this from your comments about "The UIAA recommends use of the Munter hitch in the same configuration with load next to the spine to maintain crabiner stength", plus your post 2 above this one where you say "The cycling of the rope comes into play when you pull the slack out of the rope as your second advances", plus some other comments. What Brian, tokyo bill, and I are referring to, and what you will see in Leubben's and Long's books is using the clove hitch as an adjustable knot to tie into the anchor. As an anchor knot, there will be no "cycling", since the knot is snugged down and used statically. It sounds from your comments that I quoted that the people you observed were somehow feeding the rope through the clove hitch in a manner similar to the way one might feed the rope through a tube device or as you would feed the rope through a Munter hitch. If so, then the clove hitch would be loosened and tightened many time as the climber advanced and might well be loose at the time of a fall. But as Brian and I were talking about it, the hitch would only be loosened as you were setting up the anchor or adjusting the length. During the time the other climber is moving, the clove hitch on the master point is always tightened down, and the belaying of the climber would not be via a clove hitch, but would be via a belay device, such as an ATC or Sticht plate, or perhaps a munter on an HMS carabiner.

You also referred to lowering a rappeller via a muled munter. I believe you are referring to the standard releasable rappel setup that many of us who work with youth groups use when running rappel stations (kids get T-shirts and hair caught in their rappel devices all too often). But there is a bit more to it than you included in your brief aside. Yes, it is an excellent way to avoid the very risky maneuver of having someone rappel down to the stuck kid to try to untangle them, and yes, a muled munter is used as part of the setup. But the rappeller is belayed on a separate top rope as well. There isn't enough room to go into the details here, but you can look on E. C. Joe's website for an illustrated explanation vertical20.com. The releasable rappel discussion is at http://vertical20.com/uploads/ReleasableRappelGuidedActivity.pdf with the illustration of the muled munter at http://vertical20.com/images/selfres1_s2e1.jpg

I think you are talking about two different uses, with the tie-in to the anchor being the standard, common use that we were referring to and apparently use as a belaying knot being the other. If you were referring to use as a belaying knot while the climber is moving, I can see plenty of reason to be concerned. I will say that sometimes out at the crags, I see people using gear and ropes in strange ways, even including groups running "adventure courses" for kids.

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• Re: clove hitch for tie in's - FMD 11:30:55 06/12/2007

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