Hilleberg Introduces 3-Season Tents

This thread is for comments on the article "Hilleberg Introduces 3-Season Tents"

Hilleberg Rogen. For the first time in its 40-year history, Swedish tent maker Hilleberg has created a series of three-season tents. These ar...

Full article at http://www.trailspace.com/blog/2011/08/06/hilleberg-3-season-tents.html

I was very interested in the Rogen until I saw the price.

So for $790 I get what Hille considers is a 3 season 2 person tent. 

For that same $790 I can purchase:

Hilleberg 2 person 4 season tents:

The Kaitum 2 at $725

The Nammatj 2 at $575

Tha Nammatj 2 GT at $685

The Nallo 2 at $580

The Nallo 2 GT at $675

The Jannu at $735

The Staika at $755

and the Allak at $775......

Then there are the 3 person 4 season tents I could buy:

Nallo 3 $625

Nallo 3 GT $720

Keron 3 $755

Kaitum 3 $785

Nammatj 3 $615

Nammatj 3 GT $745

How about a 4 Person tents(4 season)

I could own:

Nallo 4 $695

Nallo 4 GT $795(only $5 more than the Rogen)

So my question is why would one buy a tent that costs more than all the tents I have listed(with exception of the Nallo 4 GT,) is a 3 season tent(all the above are 4) not too mention it is also made from lighter materials which to me means less durable materials...

Honestly it makes absolutely no sense to me if one wants the most bang for their buck. Spend more to get less???

In todays economy I do not think that is a very smart way of doing things as far as Hille trying to break into the 3 season market. The purchase of this tent when compared to what else one could get and even save a few bucks doesn't even seem logical.

I suspect the price premium is intended to reflect the relative weight (or lack thereof) of the 3-season models.

Dave said:

I suspect the price premium is intended to reflect the relative weight (or lack thereof) of the 3-season models.

@Dave-I just can't swallow this. There are alot of 3 season tents on the market just as light if not lighter for a great deal cheaper. Nemos, MSRs, BAs, blah blah blah. I think for $790 its gonna be a tough sell. 

I spent $400 on my 3 season UL solo. I don't mind the cost if there is solid justification behind said purchase. $790... I dunno. I personally can't see it especially when I can purchase one of their more robust bomber tents at a cheaper price.

As far as the weight goes its still close to 4 1/2 pounds. For $10 more I could buy 2 BA Copper Spur UL 2s at MSRP and they are lighter(BA Specs: 3lb 13oz.) Granted I have no doubt that the Kerlon 1000 is stronger than the BA Silnylon. Owning a Kerlon 1200 model in the past(Akto) makes me believe that. I personally believe Hille's fabric is the best on the market but like I said for the money I can snag up a very good 4 season tent from Hille. That is my main issue. Not to mention I can get a bigger 4 season tent at that. 

Maybe they could have marketed it in a new category- UL 4 SEASON(not intended for above treeline use in winter,) just seems more appropriate for me as well as it would probably be an easier sell than saying "Hey we have a bomber 3 season for a tick under $800, yeah, I know our 4 season tents are cheaper but...."

Its still $220 more than the Anjan 2 and $200 more than the 3. While neither look to be free standing both are lighter.

I gotta agree with you Rick, it seems to be a weird price point to introduce these at.

+100 Rick.  Not sure I understand the pricing.  For $570, I can buy a Nallo that is a bit heavier but that is a tru all season tent with burlier materials.  I honestly thought that the Anjan 2 would be under $500.

Well, these are off my list.

not impressed...

Not sure i understand the pricing yet either, but i do know that the 3 season tents mentioned above reflect 2012 pricing.

I believe that the prices quoted above are 2011 pricing, I haven't verified it though.

The Hilleberg prices are increasing 6 to 8 % in 2012, due to the decreasing value of the U.S. Dollar, so I am told.

DISCLAIMER: I am a Hilleberg Retailer.

This trend toward lightness is interesting, and it is affecting almost every conceivable  aspect of outdoor gear items.

However; at what cost?

In today's economy, we all should parse our expenditures, as I am certain many of us here at Trailspace do, in earnest.

We are acutely aware of QUALITY  (or, in the case of Chinese-manufactured goods -- the lack thereof).

The "USED /  PREVIOUSLY OWNED" market is looking stronger and stronger.

The retailers should be paying attention.

I, too, am in the market for a high-quality tent.   Have been in-touch with the Hilleberg people.

These offerings (3-season tents) at the proposed prices are confusing.

                                                ~r2~

vigilguy-the prices I posted above are the current MSRPs from the Hille US site.

http://www.hilleberg.com/usa.htm

Rick -  2012 prices are being increased 6 to 8% as mentioned above. If I remember correctly, Hilleberg held back somewhat in 2011 from dramatically raising retail prices, but they felt they had to bump them up for 2012 and still keep their quality as priority #1.

Aside from the product itself ... and I do not claim to be a financial expert ... especially, that of Europe &/or Asia ...  what-the-heck is going on, here?

The entire "immediate world" is on the brink of recession.   Companies are struggling, world-wide.

Apple electronics has held the line on prices ... in fact, aligning prices very keenly by incorporating more features and technology (next generation chips) into their main-line offerings.   "Streamlining" product, if-you-will.

Just an example.

Labor is abundantly available, almost everywhere.

I realize shipping and transit costs have risen, due to petroleum costs.

I question price-hikes by any supplier.

What am I missing here?

                                                     ~r2~

Robert - check the exchange rate of the U.S. Dollar, compared to the Euro. It is weaker than it used to be.

Hilleberg refuses to have their products made in China, and they will never cheapen the quality of their materials. They have always built tents with quality being the top priority, and let the price fall where it may.

I'm not too surprised by the price increases. I've heard from a number of manufacturers that have had to raise prices, and they're not increasing their margins.

If supply and manufacturing costs go up, companies either have to raise prices or cut back somewhere.

Are we sure that workers in Estonia build a better shelter than those in China?

Sometimes there is simply the cost of doing business.  I would argue the quality is better with a Hilleberg than say, and MSR Hubba Hubba, but is the Rogen 2 really worth $500 MORE than an MSR Hubba Hubba. 

Gosh....no.

I really hope this doesn't become a situation of brand snobbery.  I always liked Hillebergs for what they did in extreme conditions.  It is what set them apart from the pack.  With their 3 season offerings, they are merely matching the pack but asking for a premium because of perceived brand value. 

The discussion around foreign exchange rates is always an interesting one.  Has Hilleberg ever heard of hedging with FX derivatives to lock in margin on their manufacturing costs? This is cheap insurance.  I suspect it would save them some sales in the future.

Rick-Pittsburgh  said :  "Honestly it makes absolutely no sense to me if one wants the most bang for their buck. Spend more to get less???"

I would guess that Hilleberg has become a victim of it own sucess.  It is now belived that all the Hilleberg touches is glold.  They will sell some of these tents base on their name and not on the value of the tent itself, but I belive they will not be the sucess they think they will for exactly the reason that you just gave. (Spend more to get less???). I would guess that they will only do this for a little while and miss the opertunity to sell 3 season tents for a long time.  When they finlly do figure it out it will be to late for them.  On the other had I will be waiting in the wings to buy the vastly reduce priced quality used tents that people bought because of name branding that were not bought for the true value of the tent .  The true value of a tent (and anything else comes when you try and sell it as a used item, not when it is bought as a new item (IMHO).  This line of reasoning allows me to usually get quallity products for around 30 cents on the $.  It is kinda of pain to wait for the lag time that is required to do this but for those who are in a position to by things this is the best "Buyers Market" I've seen in 20 yrs and maybe the best "Buyers Market" in the time I've been alive for used items. 

CWF said:

Are we sure that workers in Estonia build a better shelter than those in China?

Sometimes there is simply the cost of doing business.  I would argue the quality is better with a Hilleberg than say, and MSR Hubba Hubba, but is the Rogen 2 really worth $500 MORE than an MSR Hubba Hubba. 

 I think so.

As a user, I certainly like the Kerlon fabric better than just ripstop nylon, both for tear strength and for longevity.

I guess it is all relative.  I see buyers around here spend $6000 for their road bikes, $$$ for spotting scopes, $$$ for snowmobiles, etc.

For some hikers, a Hilleberg is overkill.  Those that want and/or need them for demanding conditions, or want to own them for many many years, it seems to be a pretty good deal financially, on an annual basis.

apeman said:

Rick-Pittsburgh  said :  "Honestly it makes absolutely no sense to me if one wants the most bang for their buck. Spend more to get less???"

 

I would guess that Hilleberg has become a victim of it own sucess.  It is now belived that all the Hilleberg touches is glold.  They will sell some of these tents base on their name and not on the value of the tent itself, but I belive they will not be the sucess they think they will for exactly the reason that you just gave. (Spend more to get less???). I would guess that they will only do this for a little while and miss the opertunity to sell 3 season tents for a long time.  When they finlly do figure it out it will be to late for them.  On the other had I will be waiting in the wings to buy the vastly reduce priced quality used tents that people bought because of name branding that were not bought for the true value of the tent .  The true value of a tent (and anything else comes when you try and sell it as a used item, not when it is bought as a new item (IMHO).  This line of reasoning allows me to usually get quallity products for around 30 cents on the $.  It is kinda of pain to wait for the lag time that is required to do this but for those who are in a position to by things this is the best "Buyers Market" I've seen in 20 yrs and maybe the best "Buyers Market" in the time I've been alive for used items. 

 I certainly admire your self discipline!!!

vigilguy said:

CWF said:

Are we sure that workers in Estonia build a better shelter than those in China?

Sometimes there is simply the cost of doing business.  I would argue the quality is better with a Hilleberg than say, and MSR Hubba Hubba, but is the Rogen 2 really worth $500 MORE than an MSR Hubba Hubba. 

 I think so.

As a user, I certainly like the Kerlon fabric better than just ripstop nylon, both for tear strength and for longevity.

I guess it is all relative.  I see buyers around here spend $6000 for their road bikes, $$$ for spotting scopes, $$$ for snowmobiles, etc.

For some hikers, a Hilleberg is overkill.  Those that want and/or need them for demanding conditions, or want to own them for many many years, it seems to be a pretty good deal financially, on an annual basis.

 Yeah - well I didn't say that I truly didn't want one of the 3 season models.  Just wish they were cheaper. Nutters.

CWF said: "Are we sure that workers in Estonia build a better shelter than those in China?"

Yes for sure.

The difference is not between the Estonia builder and the Chinese builder.  They sew the same and and have  the same machines.   The difference is between the Companies.

It appears Hilleberg moved their tent building out of country in a effort to keep a exceptionally quality product at a resonable price while still being an exceptionally quality product.  I would guess that in their country just as our country the builders of tents want way to much money to build tents.  Estonia is hungry for work.  Sewing is not that hard, though it is a skill, anyone, anywhere can learn.  Mean while on the Americans front............. American tent Compaines have  moved ther tent building to China in responce to the demands of the stock holder who on a quartly basis demands more money every quater for less tent.

Hilleberg has, so far, by buidling for the long term and building up a customer base based on cutting edge technology and customer service is making the best tents in the world in there respective disipline.  I haven't seen a Hilleberg wall tent yet, but I bet they would kick butt if the challage were issued.  I belive Hilleberg has still made a mistake in there priceing of their three season tents.  With that being said that is differnt mistake than the American companies are currently making.  American tent makers are in a race to make the crapiest tent avaliable for the most money, and they are winning.

vigilguy said: "I certainly admire your self discipline!!!"

Thank you if that was ment as a complement.  My family and friends think I'm nuts .  How many tents does a guy need, they ask??????.  They look at the floor and shake there heads when I respond "all of them".

Why does a man climb a mountian?, cause its there.  Why does a man collect all the cool tents?, cause their there.  That logic does not perswade anyone that I'm not nut's, but that's ok cause I am nuts.

As I don't work and just raise my sheep, chickens, work the garden and play with my dog and cat, I have nothing better to do than play in the outdoors with the best equiptment ever invented by mankind.  Live is good.  I live in a place where the humming birds dive bomb me but on any given day I might have a chance to  save one of there little lives.  Today was a good day

There are about 20 tents I covent that are being currently being made now.  One or two of them are by American compainies (MH EV3, MH Trango 4).  The rest are Overseas compaines like Hilleberg, Exped, and many I can't remember at the moment.  I saw some Chinese cutting edge domes tech that was....well.....amazing.......made me drool.   I'm still tring to find them again.

I relish the day when America can produce quality tents, other than the one or two compaines we have  today is not the day, nor will it be for many moons.

i keep wishing that they would create an inner tent with alot more mesh .... until they do that, it is not a good solution for most backpacking in the US due to the condensation.

plus the price is ridiculous .. there are other tent manufacturers using similar designs for alot less money

eatyourroadkill said:

i keep wishing that they would create an inner tent with alot more mesh .... until they do that, it is not a good solution for most backpacking in the US due to the condensation.

plus the price is ridiculous .. there are other tent manufacturers using similar designs for alot less money

 Hilleberg offers mesh inners for a few models:

http://www.hilleberg.com/home/products/mesh_inner_tents/mesh_inner_tents.php

Anyone know if they are planning an "updates" on the Tarra or the Jannu for 2012?  Not that they need it other than maybe weight.

No updates for the Jannu and Tarra...except a price increase for 2012.

@vigilguy  /  Charlie  ~~

I was following an online auction (eBay) for a Moss 'Outlook" 2P tent.

Closed last night at $620 (!!).     An anomaly?   Are these things for real ... or, some Asian collector(s) determined to acquire at-any-cost ?

                                                       ~r2~

Good question!

I sold two personal Moss tents years ago on eBay and they both were snatched up by Japanese buyers.  Have no idea why, but they were a hot item.

Bomber tents, but heavy by today's standards.

The "USED /  PREVIOUSLY OWNED" market is looking stronger and stronger.

The retailers should be paying attention.

                          ~r2~

* Bump *

                                            ~r2~

I just don't think very much of Hilleberg tents. I had a Soulo that, while I'm sure would withstand fierce winds at the North pole, was so poorly ventilated that it was just loaded with condensation in the winter mornings here in Oregon. Even when I left the door wide open! And when I look at the weights and price tags I just don't get why anyone would opt for one of these tents for any sort of normal 3-season use. There are just so many better options out there.

Rickosovitch said:

I just don't think very much of Hilleberg tents. I had a Soulo that, while I'm sure would withstand fierce winds at the North pole, was so poorly ventilated that it was just loaded with condensation in the winter mornings here in Oregon. Even when I left the door wide open! And when I look at the weights and price tags I just don't get why anyone would opt for one of these tents for any sort of normal 3-season use. There are just so many better options out there.

 Their main purpose is not 3 season use. Thats why they are dubbed 4 season tents. They excel in cold, windy weather with alot of snowfall.

With these 3 season variations they use lighter weight materials. I am not too sure on the ventilation. I have yet to see one in person. With the price tag I don't plan on it either.

I've been slowly coming to the same conclusion but it's hard to turn away from the fine craftsmanship, the simple colors (the red is nice), the beefy kerlon 1800 models with the stout 10mm poles, the ample guylines with the nice black plastic tighteners, and the fantastic waterproof 100 denier floors.

The Hillebergs have their flaws, and they are three:

**  The general short stubbiness of their tents, with the yellow inner tent canopy often easily touching the foot of the sleeping bag, thereby wetting it on high condensation nights.  This is most noticeable in these models:  Nallo, Nammatj, Staika, Akto, and I presume the Allak and Soulo.

**  The elastic connectors of the inner tents, which causes the inner tents to sag and ofttimes the inners are not stretched tight enough to keep from "hanging and draping", causing a bit of claustrophobia which is most pronounced in the Staika and the Akto, probably too with the Allak and the Soulo.  Beyond this, the black elastic connectors do stretch permanently over time (say five years of hard use) which only causes the sagging to be more pronounced.  With more sagging comes more wet canopy contact with the foot of the sleeping bag---not good.

**  The full length kerlon flys, which are good in a spindrift blizzard, but which just contribute to more condensation then with regular tents.  Most Hillebergs have a ground hugging perimeter fly which helps to produce this condensation.  A higher fly on a standard tent, say six to eight inches off the ground, helps a bunch to keep this condensation away.

**  Finally, this may be a fourth flaw:  Hillebergs tend to slap, sway and deform more in a windstorm than regular four season tents like the North Face Mountain, Mt Hardwear Trango, or the MSR Fury.  I have found in a windstorm that I am more "whipped" by the wind when sitting inside a Hilleberg than when sitting inside these other tents.  I can light a candle in my MSR Fury during a windstorm and the thing stays lit, in the Hilleberg it gets blown out by the interior wind.  Weird but true.  Why does this happen?  Who knows.

But with all this being said, I could at any moment return to one of my Hillebergs, the Keron 3 being a long-term favorite.  There's something about a Hilleberg which is hard to put down permanently, and I daydream of doing another long trip with my Keron.

Idea ....

I am no authority when it comes to tents.   I'm a minimalist, and go the "bivy-route".

Now, in my advancing years ... (I'll be 87 someday) ... a tent is in my future.

I read a lot of the posts in this forum.   I read many of the gear reviews.  I am an "info-maniac" ... a voracious reader.   (Not just on this website).

My knowledge is "a mile wide ... and, an inch deep".   (Except, maybe, in one area ... where people from  the world  over seem to regard me as THE expert and foremost authority ... much to my surprise, and amusement).

My "idea" ??

Have people like "Tipi"  (name?) Walker and Brian ("Apeman"), and perhaps a few other knowledgeable "tent persons / people" ... collaborate on a tent design "in a perfect world".  

Brian seems to be a 'walking tent encyclopedia', and has expressed interest in coming-up with such a design, based on his myriad tent experiences.

This sort of "collaboration" could result in a superb, world-class tent design.   Solving the inherent problems all the "other" tents seem to have.   Patents applied for.

Then, of course, the BIG DEAL would be how to fund the making of such a tent.  Investors?  (see next-to-last paragraph)

Would HAVE TO BE all "MADE-IN-AMERICA".   No exceptions!

Prototypes would have to be made, and I'm sure we would not lack for willing and able "testors".

Following that ... a modest production facility would be proper.   (Hey!  Dick Kelty started in his garage in the early 1950s!  Bo and Renate Hillenberg started in their home, in the mid-1970s).

Marketing and distribution?

When you can provide THE VERY BEST, customers WILL COME knocking.

NO SELLING OUT to conglomerates!   Screw 'em!

Investors?   Right here.   No I.P.O,'s   Keep it small.   Reasonable profit margin.

Interesting, 'eh?   When you know something, and people know that you know ... they sense potential for something greater.   I am contacted (fairly regularly) by people I have never met ... from U.S.A., Canada, far East, Europe  ... about making something (fourth paragraph from top, here), as well as writing a book about it ...  (publishers at-the-ready).   BTW -- It has nothing to do about backpacking, hiking or camping.

(BTW #2 --   Where do I come in with the tent deal?   I am a "community organizer"   That, and a lot of B -. seem to get some people somewhere)

                                               ~r2~

Rick-Pittsburgh said:

Rickosovitch said:

I just don't think very much of Hilleberg tents. I had a Soulo that, while I'm sure would withstand fierce winds at the North pole, was so poorly ventilated that it was just loaded with condensation in the winter mornings here in Oregon. Even when I left the door wide open! And when I look at the weights and price tags I just don't get why anyone would opt for one of these tents for any sort of normal 3-season use. There are just so many better options out there.

 Their main purpose is not 3 season use. Thats why they are dubbed 4 season tents. They excel in cold, windy weather with alot of snowfall.

With these 3 season variations they use lighter weight materials. I am not too sure on the ventilation. I have yet to see one in person. With the price tag I don't plan on it either.

 He didn't have a Soulo anyway.  It was an Akto and his experience with it (very wet environment in the Pacific Northwest) are well documented over at www.practicalbackpacking.net.  He replaced it with an MSR Hubba.

Ahhhhh I see....

Robert Rowe said:
"My "idea" ??

Have people like "Tipi"  (name?) Walker and Brian ("Apeman"), and perhaps a few other knowledgeable "tent persons / people" ... collaborate on a tent design "in a perfect world". 

Brian seems to be a 'walking tent encyclopedia', and has expressed interest in coming-up with such a design, based on his myriad tent experiences.

This sort of "collaboration" could result in a superb, world-class tent design.   Solving the inherent problems all the "other" tents seem to have.   Patents applied for.

Then, of course, the BIG DEAL would be how to fund the making of such a tent.  Investors?  (see next-to-last paragraph)

Would HAVE TO BE all "MADE-IN-AMERICA".   No exceptions!"

Robert,  I am honoured that you would put me in the same catagory as Tipi and "perhaps a few other knowledgeable "tent persons / people" as I'm just some middle aged dude who as a nutty obsession with tents.

A tent is a shelter that one lives in quite often in extreem conditons.  When I am in a tent I consider it to be my "house or shelter" at that time.  So now I have to ask this.  If you boought a home would it be ok it your house leaked when it rained, got condensation on the inside and dripped on you every morning, would it be ok for you not to be able to light a stove or candle in it in extream weather due to to much drafting. How about if your ceiling sagged in the rain or under snow load and the walls lossened so that you would have to go out in a blizzard and redo the tie downs time and time again wondering each time if the wall material was reaching its breaking point.  An then on top of that you would go and pay big bucks for this house with what I consider defects.  I live in a house such as this, with the exception of the big bucks.  It's called a 35 year old mobil home.  It is trully a piece of garbage that has reached it's half life.  I expect any day that something will go wrong and I will have to replace it.

My thoughts on tents range towards the heavy duty base camp style tents.  The tent I would build if made in America would most likey dwarf the cost of the top of the line Hillebergs as I would not skimp on anything that would make a tent a tent.  It would be heavy and it would be rock solid.  I'm guessing in the 16lb to 26 lb range.   I look at most of the tent's that people say are "bomb proof" and I laugh, give me a bomb and lets see.

When I get farther along on the planning of my tent I will post my ideas and run them by you all but I'm afraid that after this is all said and done that it will be so expensive to produce that I would be the only nut job that would buy one, but then again if I make one, I won't have to buy it.

With all that I just said it you be fun to design a line of tents that can and will do the things I require.  A few have done this before.  Marmot with there sinlgle wall gortex tents, Moss, Garuda, just to name a few, and there are only a few that have figured out what I believe the true concept is and should be

There is no perfect tent.  A tent is a shelter we develop an intimate relationship with because it will sometimes protect us and sometimes kick our butts.  Thru this process we develop a sort of sentimental Trust tested thru time, and then we say we have a near-perfect tent.  (And then oops North Face or Mt Hardwear or Big Agnes or whatever discontinues it).

Plus, I've learned decades ago that by getting the "best" we save money in the long run.  This goes for sleeping bags and tents, especially.  How so?  Quality, longevity, durability, craftsmanship, best materials, best goose down, etc.  The best gear stands the field test of time, 95% of the time. "Cheap" gear is usually an interim choice as we daydream of the thing we really want but can't afford, but then we go thru several pieces of cheap gear and find by putting off the big purchase we've already spent more money on poor substitutes than the best original would've cost all along. 

This isn't true with cars or houses (who can afford a Ferrari or a Lamborghini?), but so far backpacking gear is still fairly cheap when compared with the "best" of other things.  I know, Hilleberg tents are right at the outer edge of what's reasonable.  Priorities.  The local boys where I live would never ever consider blowing a chunk of money on a tent, but they don't think twice about hauling out the cash for a fancy truck or a couple of rifles for their gun collection.

@ Tipi Walter: So very well said.

Tipi Walter said:

This isn't true with cars or houses (who can afford a Ferrari or a Lamborghini?), but so far backpacking gear is still fairly cheap when compared with the "best" of other things.  I know, Hilleberg tents are right at the outer edge of what's reasonable.  Priorities.  The local boys where I live would never ever consider blowing a chunk of money on a tent, but they don't think twice about hauling out the cash for a fancy truck or a couple of rifles for their gun collection.

I hear 'Ya.

I know of some rednecks that have $60,000+  turbo-diesel crew-cab 'dualies' ... and, I think the only thing that ever goes in the bed of the pick-ups, are big coolers with six-packs of beer in 'em.

Those trucks probably have a GVTW  of 5-tons.   They can move a house off its foundation.

"Good 'ole boys".   Probably have a C.D. playing the "Duelin' Banjo's" tune (from  the movie, "Deliverance")

Huh ?

[ *insert 'Double Face-Palm' emoticon * ]

"Ya cain't fix stupid"  -- Ron White, humorist

                                                        ~r2~

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