A Couple Waterproofing products for tents

Hey all -

Just to give a bit of background...

- I bought a North Face VE-24 - from the late seventies, early eighties used.

but the thing is it had been well used and unfortunatly been packed and forgotten and when a storm flooded the garage where it was stored - got soaked and sat for a while... a good while.

I picked it up pretty cheap and of course the first thing i noticed was this thing is still in good shape - dispite all the mold and mildew.' and pealing waterproofing.

So i washed in one of those heavy duty commerical washing machines 4 times with 4 gallons of Lysol and Pinesol to kill the mold and mildew and soap of course which - got rid of the mold and mildew and all - every smiggen of water proofing.  Thousands of flakes from the old water proofing all over the place when i pulled it out of the washing machine - it got every where!

Okay so - it was clean but needed water proofing again and i checked every were and listen to all - including posts here on what to use. heard all the pro's and cons of all the methods for two years i waited before desiding what to do.

I heard about Nikwax - and the paint on types

But working with the boating industry - they have a couple products they use. and i just re-waterproofed the tent again with out the slipperyness of silicone based products. or the added weight of the paint on products.

And it worked beautifully! I tested it with a couple five gallon buckets of water dumped and then thrown on it and - no leaks what so ever.

The products -

Aquatechs - water repelent

and finally Starbrites water proofer.

Now i have confermation from someone that used the Starbrite product on a sunshade - which is a lot looser weave than nylon and he said it lasted about 18months on the back of his boat - in  the sun daily before he had to re-apply it. so i think it should do pretty on a tent not in the sun every day. and it states on the package - it is for tents - nylon etc etc.

I used a spray bottle and applied it outside - it is not a water based product so be sure to do it outside - and don't wipe your eyes after you get it on your hands... burns for awhile if you do. Found out the hard way.

It states as well it is not a silocone based product.

Anyway - i waited along time before making my desision on what to use to re-water proof my tent. I chose this stuff.

I put two coats on the fly - two on the bottom and part up the sides.

Took about a gallon to do all my gear including sleeping bag - tent - packs - a coat and i still have enough left to maybe put another coat on the fly if needed down the road.

and i really didn't think it worked - no weight added - didn't feel like anything was on the fabric... no after smell either btw.

but like i said - i tested it - and wow worked great for me.

So for anyone worried about re-water proofing your tent - if all else fails or your nervous as i was on what to use.

Try either or Starbrites waterproofer or Aquatechs water replent or both like i did.

At the time of this writing costs about $45 a gallon.

thought you all might be interested in hearing about it - if someone hadn't tried it and posted about it before.

this is the North Face VE-24 incase you wondered what kind of tent it is or what it looks like

total cost to repair it to pretty much new.

$80 bucks including tent - washing -  2 gallons of mildew killer - a gallon of water proofer

well i hope this helps some one

see you on the trails

chase

Nice, very nice.  The VE-24 is a nice tent that has weathered many a storm.  It's nice to see someone else find what is considered an old relice of a tent and bring it back to life.  New tents of this quality are in the $200-$600.  So for $80. you got your nearly unused tent and got to waterproof all your other gear and have some water proof left over.  Sweeeeet, nice to see.  I've been working on my own water proofing as well and think I have come up with some solutions.  I have to retreat one of my TNF North Star's Rain Fly as the yellow sectoins are delaming.  As this tent has a little ringed turent to vent on the fly any kind of a thick coating might prove to be a problem.  Where can I by the Aquatechs - water repelent and Starbrites water proofer.  I live on the Olympic Peninsula in WA state and the boat industry is alive and well  more or less.  It's good to see other finding and using the gear of yesteryear.  Were both of the products $45 together or $45 each per 5 gallons.  By the way nice tent.

Hey Apeman -

Another tip - besure to add in a fire retardent to the mix.

I completly forgot this side of things - till i went to get rid of some thread  fringes with a lighter.

Let me add this - these type water proofers are meant for sails and SunBrella's as well as bimini Tops canvas covers etc etc.

And if they can handle the salt water and ocean elimants - they should do great on a tent and Starbrite does say on the container for nylon, canvas, tents , sails, bimini tops, sleeping bags and such.

StarBrite is made locally btw here in Fort Lauderdale, Florida.

Aquatechs product is made in North Carolina ( i think or South C.)

Some of the Aquatech stuff was given to me by a Bimini Top maker - DART Canvas - they make Bimini tops and yatch cushions and stuff.

Okay were to get it -

Most boating supply houses should have it.

Boat Owners Warehouse is were i picked up mine locally though you can get it at West Marine - they carry both products.

Here is there address in your area:

WEST MARINE #01288
1530 Black Lake Blvd SW, Suite C
Olympia, WA 98502
360-352-1244

here are the products i mentioned webpages:

http://www.starbrite.com/productdetail.cfm?ID=1057&ProductCat=Marine&ProductSCat=Waterproofing&ProductSSCat=

and their locate a dealer near you link:

http://www.starbrite.com/wheretobuy.cfm?product=81900N?desc=Waterproofing Gal.&desc=Waterproofing Gal.

Aquatech's main page (they don't have a seperate product page for the water proofer - it's down the page a bit.:

http://www.aquatech-marine.com/products.htm

they do have it in 5gals if you need that much btw apeman.

Now i did see some other marine water proofing agents out their while looking these up... never know there might be better ones - with a flame retardent already in them...

The nice thing is - no silicone - and they were right - it didn't discolor my tent - except were it was really sun bleached and i didn't do but the seam area.

Secondly as the manufacurer stated - didn't change the feel of the fabric or smell or change the look over all.  which is why after i let it dry - i didn't think it would work - My first thought was - Man if i waisted $50 freaking dollars on this stuff I'm going to be pissed!

But two five gallon buckets of water tossed at / dumped on the tent - with not even a drop of water making it through... It was like my tent had rain-x on it... ( the stuff you put on windsheilds) the water just ricketched off the tent - and slide down the side like an egg out of a well grease brand new teflon frying pan. I couldn't believe it - and with no added weight that i could feel.

And you know the paint on kind? what is that stuf acrylic based - i can't remember - but that is what my tent had orriginally and after i washed it so many times and it came off (flaking off)  the tent weight dropped by at least 2.5 lbs... felt like it anyway.

Tent feels light - feels good actually  - like i said this stuff is meant for sails - and racing sails are nylon and they don't want added weight on a race sail boat - they need the sails to be water proof yet plyable like the natural fabric - if the sails get soaked - it adds weight - they could loose the race.... and they use it...

and thats with salt water as mentioned.

Just remember to add a flame retardent into the water proofer - well i would... then spray your tent - just make sure it is not a acrylic based fire retardent - needs to mix with - i take this stuff has mineral spirits in it..? says to clean up with it... so...

or better yet just give them a call - they have 800 numbers and aske them what they recommend would be the smart way to go.

anyhow - i like the result - and it works and i've waited a few years for this so... i'm happy i finally got this tent done and the rest of my gear done as well...

Also - note  - i don't know if you are supposed to but two or three coats on - it may only take one coat - but i put two on just to be sure - in some places three coats - I have a smaller pak tent - looks like a shark with eys and teeth - i may try spaying that with a single coat see what happens - how it fairs.

anyway - i've said enough... hope this helps you.!

Post a pick of your tent apeman - or one that shows what it looks like - i'd like to see it.

and yes - mine had been through - two huricanes  down here and along the eastern shore line as well several blizards up in Alaska and they lived in it for 9 months up in Alaska one time according to the orriginal owner.

They camped alot - and i got some good gear from them real cheap since we are the tropics - a four season tent is really over kill and really hot to sleep in down here - so they were getting rid of their northern gear... I lucked out all things considered...

Now to use it!  

PS @ Apeman - it was $45 for 1gal of the StarBrite and well free for the quart size or there abouts spray bottle of Aquatechs water repelent that Dart Canvas gave me - but both are around the same price for a gal - and a quart sprayer did 2/3rds my outer fly and it was only a 2/3 full bottle so you could probably do the whole fly one coat with a quart bottle and it costs i think $17 or $18 bucks a quart spray bottle? (Aaah,  16oz bottle of Aquatech for $17.70 says on their page)

Star brite might be cheaper... by a little bit from what i remember...?

and don't ask why that went bold  - i hit a wrong key and bold it went and i can't turn it back to requalar print...

anyway - let me know how yours turns out.

and post a pic!

Hey Chace,  Thanks for the such a complete discreption of how you re-water proofed your tent fly.  Here is what I have to do.  The tent your looking at is a TNF North Star that was originally made in 1979.  It was a expensive tent in it's day and as a result of that not many were made.  It has a floor area of 58.25 sq ft.

Setting it up at a park in Seattle with the rear of the tent showing.

The rear of the tent showing one of the two snow tunnels.

I borrowed this picture of of the net ( http://www.oregonphotos.com/snow-camping.html ) to show what it looks like with the vent/turrent extended as none of my pictures have the vent extended.  This picture shows the tent from the side with the front door on the right. 

This is a pictrue of the delamination of the yellow sections of the fly of my tent.

Notice that the tan sections are not delaminating just the yellow section.  The tent is also yellow and tan.

A close up of the vent/turrent open about half of its height.

So I have to figure out if I'm going to redo the whole fly or just the yellow sections.  The snow tunnels are in the yellow parts of the fly complicating matters.  The vent in the top contains a screen/mesh.

The first step is to decide if I'm going to do the whole fly or just the yellow sections (all of which are delaming).  This will dictate what steps are next.

One of the interesting things is I have two of these tents that both have very little time in the sun.  I purchased each from their original owners who each said they were use 6-7 times each.  Only one has the delam problem.  It is interesting to note that the snow tunnels (on the fly) are also delaming equally with the rest of the yellow sections but in the times this tent was used, the tunnels were closed as these were used as camping tents and never in High alt. snowy conditions.  Even if the tunnels were used the lower underside would nto have been exposed to UV so I do not belive that the delaming is a result of UV exposure.

So,  If anyone has any suggestions or thoughts, let'em flow.

Hey apeman -

(it's chase btw - not chace) lol

Super nice tent apeman! and you have two... lucky you!

The delamination was exactly the problem with mine - as well as the heavy amount of mold and mildew inside and out.

You can re-laminate it with the paint on kind of waterproofing -

here is a product that some have used successfully as a paint on laminate:

Aquaseal Polycoat - (just google it) "Heavy duty waterproofing made especially for tent floors, rain flies, backpacks and gaiters. Water-based, odorless formula that is easy to apply and cleans up with water."

From what i understand - these type work and i was going to use this type for mine - but they add weight and with any re-water proofing you have to get the old off first. - that means wash it in a commercial - big round tumble washer - first. And wash it till all old laminate is removed.

Then pick your poison and re-water proof it.

Nikwax is getting good reviews from what i'm hearing as of late - if you want to go that route.

They have a "How to" here: http://www.nikwax.com/en-us/how_nikwax_works/green_for_clean.php

personally - as mentioned i'm happy with my discision to go with Aquatech waterproofing.

I labored over the descision for as mentioned a couple years before just saying - do something - pick one and go with it! I opted for a non-silcone solution and it states it alows the material to retain it's breathability.

And came highly recommended by those that use it all the time in some pretty rugged wheather conditions.

The one thing i like about your tents - is the pop-up vent - wish mine had one for sure! Thats so needed as these tents do get warm if placed in the sun - but they are 4 season tents meant for the snow. so.. warm is welcome in those conditions I'm sure.

have to ask - and give you a chance to plug it if you are -

are you going to sell one of your North Stars?

- chase -

Hey Apeman -

just a couple quick tips and sumation that i found when re-water proofing mine.

No matter what - since yours is a laminate like mine was - you are going to have to wash it in a washing machine.

use a comercial tumble washer - the big ones. Bring a small dust pan and hand broom - you're going to need it - as not to tick off the laundry matt when washing it. - when you take it out it's going to flake all over the place and flake a lot - dust pan and hand broom will be handy to clean it up. That way you can use the dryer...

Check after each washing to see if all the laminate is off - if not - wash it again till most if not all is removed.

Drying in the dryer - i dried mine in the dryer at warm - remember it is nylon it will melt - so use a very low setting. it will dry fast - so will the flakes of laminate. again - broom and dust pan will come in handy and if you have it a car vaccumm to vaccumm out the dryer and washing machine.

after all  - that is the messiest part.

use a large bottle of Pinsol to get rid of any mold or mildew - even if you don't have signs of it - i'd use it anyway - i used a half bottle to a bottle per wash. Add it in when the machine calls for bleach and expect some fading of the cloth - not much but a little.

after it drys you will instantly notice a weight difference. It will be a lot lighter with the laminate removed.

The seams - you may find as i did not all the laminate is removed from the seams and may be in some spots here and there on the body of the tent.

To remove this - use a tooth brush type brush - not a wire prush but the plastci bristle type - it comes off easy. I used a small plastic bristle brush that can be found at any hardware store - looks like this one by Hyde.

use a larger nylon brush for any larger spots but i found this was about perfect as it is firmer than a tooth brush but not too hard on the tent material.

then pick your poison as to your water proofer. Either a laminate type - silon based or non- silicone based.

And remember to add a fire -retardent to the mix if the water proofer of choice does not have one included in it already if you can find one that is..

chase

Hey chase, (see I got it right this time ;-)> )

I was debating washing the whole fly and delaming the whole thing or just treating the yellow sections.   One way to rid your tent of the old laminate is to use vinager.  I was thinking a nice red wine vinager would be nice ;-)> .  It's fairly slow to act so if you get any on the wrong spot  it can be washed of if your sloppy and you catch it.  There are other stronger chemicals that some of the tent manufactures have recomended to me but all are solvents that I think are way overkill.  I belive that the tent manufactures use them as they are quick acting so as to save tiome.  If it was just a straight fly I would just wash it, but as mine has the snow tunnel doors as well as the vent I'm thinking think it might just be eaiser if I did only the sections that I need.  I'm also toying with using a silicone based waterproofing on the underneath of the fly so that I don't have to worry about UV degradation.  It's a paint on right now but I can make it as thick/thin as needed so I can thin it down to be used in a garden pump sprayer.  I've used it on a couple of experiments using Tyvek and it's worked very well.  It uses GE UV resistant silicone and a thinner.  I'm not worried about adding weight as this is more of a base camp tent than a backpacking tent and I have a number of other tents that I use for backpacking.  I'm pretty sure that once I delam the fly and then apply my mixture it'll weigh about the same as it does now.  The only down side I can see with using silicone is once it's applied it's on for good. With that being said, with it being on the underside of the fly it should outlast the usfulness of the fly itself.  The other thing I was thinking about was using my mixture on the underside of the fly and one of the products you've mentioned on the top.  Let's really waterproof this thing.  I'll most likely skip the fire retardent.  As I've already burned down one expensive tent (and a fine fire it was), I'm pretty careful now.  From my understanding the retardents are that are used for tents fairly nasty and I know you can smell it in the tent for years as it off gases.  I think I'm ok on the mold/mildew front and since I'll just be doing the fly so I think Im ok that. 

In regards to selling the North Stars.  I think I'll hold onto them for now.  I've seen three of them for sale in the last 4 months, two on Craigslist and one on Ebay.  I bought the two of off Craigslist.  The one on Ebay went for $500 if I remember right.  I will let you know if I do decide to sell one. 

Once I start to do this I'll let you know how it's going.  I have quite a few tents so I'm not in any hurry to do this as well as were still geting rain everyother day or two so it's way to wet and humid to do any kind of tent work here that needs to be done outside.  Thanks agian for your extended detailed explanation(s) on how you did yours.

Oh that's right you make your own waterproofing mix - I forgot about that.

Hmmm, doing the underside of the fly with either the silicone based or the polyacrylic based material would deffnitly be an added plus.

I was thinking if i was going to use the poly for the tent bottom - i use a small paint sprayer to give it an even coat - they are cheap enough.

I know you mention using a garden sprayer hooked up to a hose - but i think you would lack the control needed not only for the mix consitancy but for the thickness of the final finish.

As for the removal of the laminate - that's why i opted for just washing it.

16 bucks and two hours later plus dry time - and i was pretty much done with that part of it. And no special chemicals needed. Just some detergant and a washing machine.

I too was wondering about the pop up thing and how it would fair in the washer. but i think it would be okay if you went with the tumble washer. They are easier on the whole tent as opposed to a upright washer.

But in saying that - i don't know what the ring is made of that holds the vent on top of your tent... looks like a ring or hoop of some kind - is it removable? or sewn into the tent lining?

I try to make things as simple as possible - and as effective.

Keep in mind too - io waited two years before re-proofing mine - so at your leasure you can just take it - if you choose to a laudry matt one weekend and get it ready for the next step - which you can descide on later - at least the tent would be prepped and ready for that next step. That's if you opt to wash it over using some other form of removal.

I only did the darker /brighter yellow sections on mine as well - just followed what North had done to begin with - but i did waterproof the seams and poles supports on the top of the main body of the tent - leaving the centers of those sections bare/natural. Just a little added protection i felt.

Yeah i read that the fire- retardents of past were pulled do to them being toxic in my searhc for one to use for my tent. But i have an idea as what i can use that isn't toxic. - it's not meant for fire retarding but it showed fire blocking characteristics in its solid form - and it's completly natural product. I'm thinking of writing the company for a sample and then grind it to powder form and test it on some nylon. which they say is harder to fire -retard  as a textile since it melts and burns. I don't want to get caught in a tent on fire - melting and burning around me while in a sleeping bag of the same matterial... beside its the fumes it gives off when burning that are toxic as well as the norm of the smoke and such. For me personally, i want a fire retardent tent especially when out there with a open fire right close - one log that pops and sends a cinder without you being aware or worse asleep and poof - up it goes.. not something i want happening to me and mine while stepping out to enjoy the great outdoors...

Well no matter what you do - i wish you the best with it.

You've got a great looking set of tents. Now having seen it i really like that model of tent.

Amazing that 30 to 40 years later they are still going strong with a little care and maintanance almost like new. The design hasn't changed that much over the years either.

hmmm, the stories these tents could tell... something to ponder on fire side.

happy trails apeman

chase

 PS: it's super HOt and muggy here - very uncomfortable weather. and given they cut all the trees down and opted for for a concrete jungle with no shade - it's like a desert hot - and muggy. and rains jsut enough during the day to make it more so... not the vaction spot of choice anymore... if you saw what they did to our park campground - you'd cry.

They were funded to fix it after a huricane took some of the trees down. - they bulldozed the whole thing - made a truck stop like parking lot for all the RV's and ... yes ... the tents. you pitch a tent on concrete. no shade no trees... they said it was to make it low maintanance.

And talk about hot there.... Nothing like pitching a tent and laying on asphalt in the tropical sun (which they have around the concrete RV pad)

And the all natural camp area - they don't allow individuals to camp at anymore - only groups - like the boyscouts or something. and only certain months.... all our parks are barren waste lands now...

and they call that progress.... go figure.

Actually I was thininking of using a 1 or 2  gallon pump  up weed sprayer rather than a hose end sprayer.

The top vent is a sewn in 3 pieces with two Delrin nylon resin solid rod rings with tubular connectors and a top angled plastic piece so that the water runs down it, with no-seeum netting in between the rings and the top angled piece to vent and is not removable.

So sorry that they bulldozed your camping area.  Seems to be humans answer to so many of it's problems is to bulldose/raise an area and then cover it in concret/black top.  One of the reasons I live out in the sticks,  even now the city is  encroaching and gest closer and closer everyday.

Hey Apeman -

they recommended the spryer to me too when i purchaced it. I think the small one should be fine over the two galloner.

Yeah - City officials screwed things up here as well as the developers they let in like Trump - the Ritz - the Marriott and a dozen others.

I think that they just don't care and see what they think is revenue but in reality is a deffeceit to the area.

Or as i see it at times - they aren't thinking... period.

The reefs are all dead - all three. Why? they invited 40 million idiots from other countries and ours to live here that brought their culture - and forgot ours. And didn't change the sewage system - which dumps into the ocean.

Dead reefs in 20years and the worst death of the oceans in the last ten.

Sacraficed hotels and resorts with charactor for condos and hotels with a concrete shoe box attitude and look.

Said all american colllege students were not welcome here - yet they want jaguars and rolls royces - which is the college students (hopefully) future income bracket - in short - they don't want Americans and are not shy about showing it.

I used to manage a hotel - very tropical - wood in every room each different from the other - a 10 man stone jacuzzi - so much bamboo and palm trees and flowers you couldn't see onto the property. coble stone walk ways - plants every where. Sun roofs into the rooms -

I had a 2 year waiting list for people wanting to stay there and we were local friendly during the off season - charging 400 a month to stay there for locals. The city took it using iminate domain. Painted all the cypress wood white - then sold it to the Ritz - who was trying and eventually did buy the whole block after they starved out the independants. Same with the marriott and Trump and others.

This is what our beach looks like tens years later

The Marriott is the pink building is litterally 4 feet from the Ritz in front of it.

They are all 80% empty and have been for 10years

Does that say your in the tropics to you...? doesn't me nor many others.

Yet when these same people go to other countries - they can't do this if the country says - NO. In stead they build something like this...

or this

with beaches like this... (which ours used to look like to some degree)

staying in rooms like this...

okay maybe not that luxurious but you know what i mean.

These say where you are. Not concrete boxes. with a motel pic on the wall looking out the window at the concrete wall of the hotel next door or beached whales lying on the beach becuase they ran out all the smokin hot babes in lue of baby dypers...(sp?) affrad to go the pool or the beach because its so hot due to the lack of shade or burning your feet on concrete pavers - or the lack of shade becuase they lifted the building hight and you can't get  a tan after 1 in the afternoon.

sorry - i'm pretty opinionated after having something great ruined by others here... and Hollywood is doing the same as we speak they are getting building rights for a new resort that was supposed to be tropical - owned by Jimmy Buffet - who should know better - but they changed the plans and now it's just like Fort Lauderdale concrete strip resorts.

anyhow back on topic...

Found out some good and bad news about water proofing and a test done by Power Boat mag on 13 different brands -

Forget Starbrite or Aquatech think - 303 Frabic Gaurd - I jsut went and picked up a gallon at West Marine who was nice enough to price mach it for me - it's more expesive but - check online and they will match the price.

It rated no. one out of thirteen including Nikwax - in a five day submersion test. so for abut half the price you can beat out Nixwax.

In short - all no matter what you use - silicone based wax based or as these are flourpolimer based all need to be washed with a heavy detergant that leaves no residue - of couirse 303 recommends their cleaner.

I did my own test like they did in the article on part of my tent bag - which was soaked in Starbright - two coats.

here is my set up:

i used a half glass of water - and a rubber band to hold it on the glass.

i noticed some water sepage past the rubber band and so i lifted it after 5 minutes to put another rubber band on - which i did - and when i put it down on the dish drainer rack - it started to leak like a sieve. Which was a bout ten minutes into the test. it leaked anywhere something touched it. the rim of the glass first after putting it down again and then anywhere the drain touched it in the middle.

I'll post the power Boat test article - tommorrow don't have time now so you can read it.

And i'm not saying Starbrite didn't work - it worked fine when i tossed the 5 gallons of water at it a couple times. but - for the floor - you know water is going to get in between the ground tarp and the tent bottom. and i'm going to move around in there - so this showed me i needed to do something else and 303 lasted 5 days submerged - the best being a double side coated Heavey Duty Scotch Gaurd.

And soaked tissue paper and paper towel which didn't leak for weeks... just for giggles thought i'd mention that - it's all in the article. look for it on line and i'll post a link to a hosted pdf tommorrow.

chase

Here is the link to a downloadable pdf of Power Boats water repellancy test if you care to read it.

http://www.303products.com/powerboatlowres.pdf

Pretty interesting results - and i wish i had remembered i had this prior to using / pruchacing the Starbrite or Aquatec products.

Again - though - they both did come recommended by someone that used them on a bimi top / sunbrella product with success and continued to be water proof for 18 months so - i'm not totally counting them out.

But after my test concured with Power Boat mags - i want to re-do the bottom area of the main body of the tent - better safe than sorry.

I'd use the Heavey Duty Scothc Gaurd as they did saturating both sides but the expence to do such a large area is too much at this time, for  me anyway. Besides i'm now at almost $200 in cost for this tent with the new purchace of the gal of 303 picked up yesterday.

Then add in two more washings in a commercial washer and I'm going to use the 303 cleaning product  - (might as well do it to their specs and directions) so i'm getting up there.

- chase -

oh and again sorry about going into the rant about what is going on locally here... i can carry on about it - i'm aware of that.

only good thing is the ban and constant statements about the college students and spring breakers being banned and not wanted here by the city in the paper, only serves to starve those they wanted in as well as the independants... that does tickle me a bit. Their desision after all - back fired on them and now they are forced to live with it as they killed all desire for people to come and vaction or buy one of those 3million dollar condos they cramed in on the beach... plus the island is sinking... little too much dregging to re-create the beach and make the intercoastal deep enough for the big boats and cruise ships. Perhaps next time they might hed what those before them said and why they past laws to prevent what they did in the first place...

We did fight all this when they first proposed all this - fought hard. But lost oviously.

 Now i'm so unhappy here now as many are - I'm going for a long bike ride! And reason for getting this tent ready.

 - The Forest Gump run as some say - only via bicycle to find an area i can be happy living again. With Friendly nature minded people that have some intellegance... A bike ride in search for intellegant life and common sense left in the USA one might say....

who knows what i'll find or if there is any left at all...

Btw - a bit of trivial for all that read this.... When your kids ask you when the US was officially taken over and where it started? You shoulld answer, It was South Florida 2010 - it is now officiallly illigal to display or fly an American Flag at your place of residance or on your vehicle in certain towns in Dade County.

Not that i'm a Pro American or a Flag waver - i'm deffinitly not... but for all those of you that thought it wouldn't come to pass in your life time...

Well News Flash boys and girls! - it did!

and this is not a joke... This is actual law in certain areas here now - passed in 2010.

It was just kept quiet - so as not to arrouse anyone it had happened. They hushed it up in the papers real quick. Didn't change it - just hushed it up.

So you should send thanx to Mr Goverment man and Corporate Developer... and the media companies that own or are affilitated with those afore mentioned. Send thanx as they did real good job at giving it all away. And destroying american culture - and the land and water ways. And of course send thanx to all others that did nothing - didn't lift a finger to even try to stop it.

Thanx for if it wasn't for all of those that helped them or did nothing to stop what wasn't right - it wouldn't have been possible.

anyway... see you on the trails... it's all i have left to call home.

or so i hear.

Interesting chace,

I'm so sorry for the lose of your beaches to the large corporations of America.  When I was around twelve my Grandparents had just bought their first condo as a vacation condo in Hollywood.  That was during the begining of the cond beach thing as well as the begining of the Hotel industry buying up hug tracks of beach front.  The people of The united states have lost another valuble national treasure, their coastline, to the the greed of business.  It does seem that big money from what ever direction it comes from is always the winner.  I know if I came back to FL I would truely miss being able to go to the beach most anywhere I was able to in years past.  Heck, I caught my first octopus down off of a beach in Hollywood in 1969-70.  A wonderful thing I just discovered (thanks mike) or redicovered is that camping on the beach in OR is free.  I think I heard that years ago but never took advantage of that when traveling thru OR.  I will now.  I think I'm going to investigate what it would take to do a pack trip  up a beach somewhere in OR fishing along the way.

In respect to what you mentioned about not being able to display the American flag.  Could you PM me with more info one that.  I Googled that and little to nothing came up.  I can't imagine that would not be challagend under the first amendment as well as sign diplay laws.  But I guess, everytime I turn around, suprise, suprise.

Now, about waterproofing tent fly's.  Thank you so much for all the info on this subject esp. the artical by Power Boats water repellancy test.  I think I'm going to keep going on the tract that I'm on due to the fact that all the products the used made the materials water resistant and did let water thru in some amount at some point.  The way I understand the theory and appliction of how double wall tent's work, is that the inner tent wall is permable to moisture there by letting out condensation to be captured (or vented hopefully) by a non permeable membrane.  From my experiance the fly has to be water tight 100 percent of the time under all consivable and even non-consivable onsloughts of mositure.  My very first tent a ring oval intention did not ever  leak or let water in thru the fly nor the floor for 25+ years.  After the original fly died of UV overexposure I had a new one made.  The floor on the tent is now a little thinner as well.  though with a little help could be brought back up to speck.  Here is a pict (below)of some Tyvek that I applied deck sealer to and filled with two gallons of water.  It did not leak for 4 weeks till it fell down when I hung it out side (in what little sun the GNW has generated so far to test for UV durability) and the tvek/sealer fractured when it hit the ground. It now leaks like a sive.  Learned a lesson.  I'm now experimenting with a silicon based mixture that I'm able to paint on an will act the same as the water seal but is flexable.  I'm now done cureing the new Tyvek and will.  So far it feels much like the silicon imprenated fabrics that I have played with.  I will be filling this up with 3 gallons of water and hanging it out in the sun to test it's UV abilities.  Only time will tell.  One thing I've noticed in the debate about if one should seam seal the outside, inside, or both is that I notice that without exception, all tents fly and single wall tents  are seam taped on the inside where they are exposed to much less UV rays than if they are applied on the outside.  I'm going to work on that theory and use my special silicone sauce on the inside of my tents flys for now and use seam grip on the seams on the outside seams of the fly(I really don like leaky tents, that's a deal breaker) as it's proven itself in UV conditions.  Seam grip can also be thinned out so you don't have to use near as much there by reducing cost of product, and added weight to the tent.  As 90% of my tents are 3-6 person base camp tents, I'm not worried about any slight increass of weight vers. protection.  I've been around people with leaky tent's and have seen the results.  Ugly very very, Ugly.

This tyvek, deck sealer coated, "bag" held water without leaking for 4 weeks

Tyvek Deck Sealer huh? - hmmm...

Whats the cost per gallon..? well i suppose i could just look that up ( google it)

Now you say it doesn't feel any different than the silicone based water sealers...

Now just to clarify - are you double coating the bag? inside and out or just one side for your test?

And once coated you let it cure - in the sun i take it... for how long?

 - 6 -8hrs i presume?

Once cured it's flexible without damage to the water proofing or can it take some ruff housing - "outside use" tossing around - paking, unpaking, bunching up - unbunching - dirt  - twigs being brushed against it etc.

Normal camping use i guess is what i'm refering to...

Is Tyvek a Flourpolymer of some type? or what is it's active waterproofing ingredient?

You were in Hollywood back in the late 70's - must have been sweet to be here - Man that means you would have been in the prime time of Spring Break when it was all really happening... The real Spring Break... The last officail Spring Break in 88 when they shut it down - 100 million student showed up to try and keep it going - can you imagine that 100 million over 3 months time.

Word has it Sheriff Nick Navaro recieved notoriety that year by enforcing a new law out lawing the string and thong bikini to be worn on Fort lauderdale state and local beaches - and sole purpose was to run the spring breakers out of town  His notoriety came as t-shirts were made that stated "Nick Navaro is worried about the wrong crack" as breakers left and crack dealers became more prevelent.

You say it okay in Oregon to sleep on the beachs  - are you sure of this - just want to be sure before getting there and finding out different.

In Calli - i know you can have a bonfire - (San Jose area) and be with it all night but they don't like you to be sleeping... they check quite often to see if people are camping out or sleeping around them... as long as you are sitting up - you are okay. i don't know if it is different in different area's in Cali but in 2001 that is the way it was when i was there.

Big Sur may be differnt as i saw a lot of hikers and campers going there via the public bus. Man that was pretty country. And that has beaches too - as it is on the coast line but i don't know about actually camping on the beach... could be just certain areas... that is one i want to go back to and camp... That and up the hill / mountain in Carmel /Monterray. I loved the country side there - and the town of Monterey - though it was a tad ...not sure of the word but... it was it... which threw it just a tad off for me. Though as mentioned i did like it there - alot! it had character as a town. polyester maybe is theword i'm looking for - a touch of that that i didn't like.

Vermont was another really beautiful place - dry cold - i could wear my t-shirt out in 4 feet of snow. and the mountains.

Arkansas's smoky mountains - great people! Real Friendly - helpful.

I've been watching travel dvds the past couple days - i want to leave asap to somewhere. New Hampshire looked interesting -

So did Copper Canyon in Mexico. Never knew they had land like that - and you should see the one beautiful hotell they do have there - and how it was built - all local materials - hand made - as part of the mountains side. by the indians there. True luxury with out killing the land.

any way - your right you wouldn't recognize it here now. You wouldn't like it - i think their best was in 92/94 - it was really nice and the spring breakers - we all forgave them for what they had done in 88. Kicked butt till the final hammer came down in 98/99. Now it's all gone - every thing - the clubs the beaches the reefs - the people. gone.

Last year - it was a complete ghost town at X-mas. never seen anything like here before. 100% vacant from Hollywood to Boca Raton - vacant - you could hear a pin drop for miles.

As for the flag thing - that was last year and yeah i couldn't believe it when i saw it either - i didn't save the paper from then or the article but - i have to assume it wasn't challenged because quite honestly - it's mostly people from outside the country that live there and most don't speak english. It's starting to be that way in Hollywood now - since 2000 anyway. You hear salsa not american music here anymore. Even the Cubanos ask - "were are all the Americans?" Even if i knew - i'm not saying.

It's the same way in Tampa - they cookie cuttered each major town and metropolitain area in the state - I was shocked to find out after do a promo tour of 10 cities in two days - all were set up exactly the same - all independants being run off the beachs so they could build condos and Hotels - and corp franchise resturants and clubs - even the exact same name clubs in each town - sad - real sad - no character to any of it. Just stamp them out on an esembly line. No sense going to visit even the next town - its the same as here. and here the same as there.

All locals were complaining about being pushed out by the corps.

I feel at times like that Indian on the side of the road as the car passes by and they throw trash out the car window - Remember that commercial?

I'm all for tearing it all down and building something really amazing here - though when that thought of mine was voiced in the local paper (didn't know i was talking to a reporter at the time) the city spokeswoman chimed back - "Who said tear it all down - Who wants the Candy Store rather than the Ritz...?" We'll just wait it out" - lol - so i called her up and told it was me that said it. and why... heck even Vegas only waits a couple years and if something isn't working they blow the thing up and build something better. And i commend them for turning a dessert into a marvel - here they turned a marvel into a Desert.

Anyhoo -  Keep me informed on your test results will you Apeman? I'm intersested - and let me know about the other stuff too - OR beaches and what not. I'm truly interested..

Hey chace

Guess I wasn't clear.  My first expearment was taking a piece of free Tyvek and soaking it in Tompson's water sealer (deck seal).  I then hung it over the wood stove for two weeks earler in the year when i was heating with the wood stove to cure.  After that I tied knots in the corners and strung it up as you see in the picture.  I then added a quart of water every two or three day's making sure each time it was not leaking any water thru the tyvek.  After putting in 2 gallons (16 lbs) of water over the coures of a few week's it was still holding water.  At that point I hung it outside where it hung for two weeks without leaking till the twine broke or my know slipped and it fell to the ground (a 6-7 ft fall).  The fall fractured the tyvek and it now leaks like a sive.  So. got me to thinking that the tompsoms water sealer had hardend and was not streachy enough to take a hit without micro-fracturing.  It could mean that your not suppose to hang Tyvek in an oncomming astroide storm as well.  The Tyvek material did not split or break it just got microfractures thereby letting water thru.  I then decided that since  what ever material I use this on it still needs to be streachy (since the application  will be for tent and tent fly's), hence my silicone sauce.    I have now taken my "sauce" and coated one side of the new piece of Tyvek and curred it.  I coated the side that is supposed to go towards the inside of the house   It has no smell like the piece I did with the Tompsons water sealer did for a few weeks.  My silicon sauce feels much the same as store bout silicone impregnated materials that I've had the chance to check out.  I will now do the same experiment except for the fact that I won't slowely add the water.  I'll add two gallons of water all at once and hang it out in the sun.  I will then monitor for water loss via (leaking) vers evaperation.  As I will have two hanging as some point.  If it's not leaking I will then cut one down and see how it reacts with a 6-7 foot impact.  All of the materials I'm using were free or bought at garages sales except for the silicone which costs $6.  The tyvek was free, water sealer $.50 for a full can at a sale and the twine comes on the bails of feed for the sheep.

I don't exactly know what the Tyvek is made of.  There are different types of tyvek made for different uses.  The one I'm using is a light weight vapour permeable membrane used in the housing industry as a wrap, applied too the house under the siding.  It comes in 3ft-12 ft rolles with 9ft-10 ft being common.  You can quite get ends free at new home construction sites.  I quite often see it for sale on craiglist when someone has a roll left over.  It makes great lightweight footprints for tents.  I will be using some for the inside floors of my tents as well due to the fact that I have a big heavy dog who could very easily rip holes in the floor with his nails.  I don't really know if tyvek is water proof by it's self, I guess I could test that as well, though I'm told it is more water restaint than waterproof  in it's current form as it's designed to go under sidding and not be exposed to actuall moisture coming from the outside of the house.  It was designed to keep water & mositrue out from the out side of the house while letting vapour out from the inside of the house.

I'm as sure as I can be that camping is free on the OR beaches. I will be going down in two weeks to test that out.  Mikemorrow says that they are free and I belive him.  I'm sure you could Google it.

Many palces to move to in the US and the rest of the world for that matter.  I love it up here where I am at (NW WA) but would also like to own property in Northern CA.  I grew up in CO and it's abounds with wonders to behold but just get's to darn cold for me.  I prefer living in a place where just the act of walking out side does not in and of itself mean your taking you life into your hands, ie, Colorado in the winter.  Plus there are two mountain ranges here along with, a rainforest, the ocean, Canada up above and OR & CA below.  I love it here.

Yea I was in Hollywood back in the earley 70's back but, alas,  I was only 12 years old at the time kindfa the wrong age for spring break, sigh.

So If your looking for other palces to live I can at least offer you some free camping on my property and help you find soem camping if you want to come and check out up here.    I live in a bit of a town called Seabeck,  zip is 98308.

I'll let you know how the waterproofing goes.  It'll take a while to see if the how long the "sause" I made will be able to handle the UV properties of the sun.  I think it'll do just fine as I used to be a chimney sweep and used this silicone on roofs at 8000 ft to seal chimneys.  As the place I live in CO had 330+ days of sun it proved it could take a beating.   I usually did not have to reapply for up to 3-4 years and I don't know of a tent that you could set up for 3-4 straight years at 8000 ft with out the tent material giving up long before the silicon did. 

And just a note, I'm sure you know that camping in the national forest is free and theres no lack of forest once you get past the Mississippi.  In fact the further you go west the more national forest there is. 

Where I live I can go see bald eagles (20 to 30 come to Big Beef creek every spring to eat shell fish and make babies), crab, shrimp, clam, catch slamon and steelhead all within 30-60 min. of my house.  teh eagles ar 15 min from my front door.  I can be in the Oympic National forest and have camp set up within an hour.  I belive land is still really cheap on the Olympic Peninsula the closer you get to the coast.  Though you do have to live with lots of rain.  That's one of the catches with living here.  Also the state of WA has more miles of coast line than any other state, really, it does.

More fun things to do with Tyvek

https://picasaweb.google.com/phantomstardesign/FinalCut

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=18758

Okay now i see - Tyvek is the Material... looked it up and found i was a Dupont product and from what they are listing it as is a "spunbonded olefin" material.

Interesting product...

I was thinking over the weekend about what you had done - before now knowing it was a material - just things in general about waterproofing.

all the different ways - and something you mentioned was the 20 to 25 lasting capability we both are seeing with our older tents... and the problems associated with trying to re-waterproof them. no matter the solution.

I think one of the biggest problems whether we choose to use silicone or urethane or flourpolimers or what ever is, since we are not doing this in a comercial type setting or with commercial means... we can't heat them properly.

I do believe in the textile industry when they are mass producing this stuff - they heat the product as or during or during cure times. What we are trying to do since we really can't fold out a tent in the oven is cold laminate or impregnate the product.

This issue is found in trying to do fiberglass repair as well or fiberglass laminating i should say... especially when trying to cold bond it to wood.

Which would be similiar to trying to impregnate or laminate any of the affore mentioned products to a poruous material. ie cotton or nylon or even Tyvek possibly.

Try this - take a small peice that would fit in the oven - and treat it and do as they did in the Power Boat test with the swatches - they heated them in an oven to 200 degrees - oven setting of low.

See if that makes a difference - even with your silcone mix. But try heating the material first - then soak it or apply your test material - then reheat for some dervied cure time. try one at 2hrs one at 4hrs one at 6hrs etc and slowly cool the oven down - let it cool natuarlly - i have sneaking suppicion it will make a difference to the positive effectiveness of any of the chosen products - including your personal silcone mix... just be carefulll you don't blow your self up heating it up as - we know - and i'm sure you are aware - these products are flamable to start till cured.

I have a couple formulas for silicone mixes - i'll give a look and see if i can find them... you'll probably get more out of them than i will.

Also - an old timer shipwright/ builder who I discused this with last week - letting him know of our discussion suggested - mink oil and wax. He said that is what they used to use years ago to seal canvas covered canoes...till resins took over (fiberglass) and said it can be found locally as many still use it for making skinned lightweight vessels ( canoes - dingies and even lightweight ply vessels. Says as well it lasts years depending on use and care.

- something to think on anyway. But again - he said it had to be heated to mix it before applying it to the material which should be layed out in the sun before applying it.... again it seems most ways need heat for a long lasting waterproofing.

Heat seems to be a comon denominator amongst  the longer lasting products...

*************************

Wow - it does sound nice there - I too thought of Colorado - and the Anarondaks of recent to go too - but just watched a PDS DVD on the Anarondaks and it seems they too are fighting and hopefully won a battle with a big developer and local radio station that was slanting the public view towards over development of the park. Amzing They sounded just like those here. With their Screw Nature and build! Build Build!

 But i do believe as was last mentioned - the state stopped them as well as some strong locals that 'get it" when they set aside the park for wilderness and the people or private parts as guests to enjoy and live in harmony with nature - not bulldoze and build all they can.

Your offer of camping there - got to be the best offer I've had in years. IF you're any indication of the freindlness and neighborly ways of the people there - it sounds great and you speak highly of it. I just may take you up on that offer as i am leaving here - i have too or i'll either explode or implode. I can't handle the mentality here anymore. Too much destuction on all levels from all levels - not just the corps and big developers.

I grew up here so i got to see most of the changes which are very sudden - 1 to 2yrs and you wouldn't recognize it anymore. i left in 2001 came back a year later - and it was completly taken over by outsiders... That quick. Local freindly - they don't have a clue what it means here anymore. They still think there is a season which they haven't had in 15 years.

Its a shame you didn't get to at least see spring break as it was - i've seen some pics of the  time they had - unbelieveable - you wouldn't recognize it here. The water was so blue! - it's much darker here now and you can't see the bottom of the intercoastal anymore - it muddy brown. used to be white sand - greenish blue water running through it. Manatees - swimming by - Dolfins - parrot fish - amazingly beautiful - pine trees lining our beaches with palm trees mixed in. Sea Turtles coming ashore to lay their eggs by the droves...

There are still some small towns like it but they don't like outsiders and very little to do with tourism or developers - of course that is were the big devleopers live and the rich as it costs a fortune to live there but it is beatiful there.... you can look at it as you drive by - just can't stop and partake... figures they'd keep it prestine and wooded and natural for themselves...

Anyway - nothing i can do about it - espeically on my own - i realize that. I can't bring back the reefs - or the trees.... too many want to cut them down.

I may take you up on that offer Apeman... i'll let you know for sure - if your sure it wouldn't be too much an inconvience for you and yours. I don't want to intrude on anyones paridise or serenity looking for my own spot in this world.

and thanx Apeman - it's mightly nice of you to offer - especially as nice as it sounds...

btw - check out my ebike i'm working on - hoping it will make the trip to where ever...

I just added puncture proof innertubes to it - real ones called No- Mor- Flats - a tubless intube - I've had them on 5 bikes so far - i still own the 5 bikes- includeing this one - i just don't posses them anymore (un-willingly) except for this one - and one other standard bike. lol

Take my word on this product - Walmart is the only place that has them and one place on line still carries them - but they went out of business - tube sales dropped and the carriers of the product refused to display them or tell people about them but they are great! find them and get them for your bikes if you can. Only 19.99 each and i swear to you -0 you will love them - totally cuts back on tubes - you only change tires in the future  and they last a lifetime - provided no one steals your bike of course. Makes a huge difference when out in the woods on bike - expecially with me anyway - carting behind 200 pounds of camera gear. A flat is not a welcome thing. I have them for both the bike and the trailer... they are life savers. And take all worries about getting a flat out of the equation.

I may paint it flat black with silver - it is a little bright being all silver imo.

anyway - willl talk again - i want to check out those links you gave...

chase

Hey Apeman - just checked out the links in your post about things to do with Tyvek - the kite was cool but the back pak is sweet! - The guy did a real nice job of it. And i'm interested as others are in how durable this product is.

I definitly going to have to take a look into this product!

SeaBeck - did a google search of it - WOW! Nice looking place - it's beautiful there...!!!

lol - you actually have a place called Miami Beach in SeaBeck..? lol Definitly looks quite different than the one here..

And something called a Dungeness Crab...? I'm reading you can catch them locally and eat them... good - i've missed catching the local lobster - since the polution went up beaches got closed here - the desire to try eating one for me went down. So that is a definite plus...

Just reading here - Sparsley populated - 5000 people or so... average home 175k... goodd temp range - kinda like Carmel or Monteray in Temp it seems... similiar maybe a little cooler... wetter since you have a easterly water body as you mentioned.

Olymnpic park looks great as well... North west territory looks to be largly unspoiled - though i don't know if i want to say that too loud.

Deffinetly going to have a look see...

btw - i mocked this up this morning - If heat is the answer - no matter what type water proofer one uses - as i mentioned above - you can't just stick it in the oven to cure it.

Down here to spray boats we encapsulate them - and a/c the encapsulation  - gets too dang hot inside - but this would be perffect without the a/c to cure a tent.

We use PVC as supports and a rather thick plastic - which is pretty cool - you heat it with a blow torch and it shrinks to pull tight around the PCV frame - its all held together with a specail tape which is similiar to the palstic cover itself.

Now you mentioned the boating industry is going strong there - I know Christensen Yachts build up that way (Vancouver actually) - and i'm sure there are many other ship yards - point being - when they end the refit or end painting all this gets thrown away - the plastic covering - not the PVC piping usually. So the stuff they toss is up for grabs - they can't reshrink it again - so they chuck it. Look for a boat that is encapsulated at the yards - ask when they are putting final coat on it or expecting to un-wrap it - "splash it" if it's on the hard - come back around then and get the plastic when they toss it.

So, no cost for the plastic cover which is better than what you can buy - its very durable

- the Tape - it's 4 to 6 inchs wide usually - however very expensive - they may give you a partial roll if you ask a crew member when they are done wrapping it - usually they will - if they do - split the roll - for this purpose you don't need it that wide - it's sticky as all get out. But comes off pretty easy on painted surfaces. It has too, for obviouse reasons.

or you could use a tarp for this... Okay so you have the plastic the tape or paking tape - get 4 twenty foot lengths of 3/4 or at most 1inch PVC pipe and a ten foot length.

And constrct this:

its a very simple contruction that may cost all of $10 bucks to build provided you get some of the plastic or just use a cheap tarp to cover it.

YOu tape the plastic or tarp to the poles - all the way to the ground - if you get the plastic covering from the yard you see what i mean - it's great stuff... easy to work with- cover the whole thing - then cut a door - to close the door just re-tape it.

Use a larger diamiter stake to put in the ground for this one you'd use 8 - make sure the 1 inch or 3/4 inch PVC pipe fits inside the stake diamiter.

Take maybe 30 minutes to build this thing from start to finish.

Put your stakes in the ground - stick a pvc end in one - arch it over to the other stake ajasent to the that stake. - put your ten footer in the middle and the two end archs are ten footers as well - bind them together with tape or twine.

Cover it  - cut a door - asssemble your tent inside - hang it - spray it -

Add a couple heat lamps to bring hte temp up towards 200 degrees or so - just being in the sun it might get up to 130 degrees or so closed up, down here it does anyway - many they are hot closed up - my first experience at heat exhaustion was in one of those without a/c mide June down here. Anyway how hot it will get up there with just the sun...i don't know???

Rember though - cut doors at both ends while spraying your concoxion... and use a good mask - hate to think you invite me up there and i finally get there to find out you went mental after spraying in this thing with out a mask or ventalation. Seen the results first hand of this to someone - he's in la la land now - permitently. Though livng down here - that might not be a bad place to be come to think of it. Though i'll opt for other options.

 Tape the doors shut and let it cure over night.

Call your buddies up - and let them do their tents with your mix if so inclined. And/or do all your paks and bags and stuff while you have it up.

Tear it down or use it as a temp green house for winter vegi's or herbs.

It will last if you use that plastic i mention - they ship yach boats cross country and over seas shrink wraped with it. It handles the seas and the road debris and is very good in the sun for a fair amount of time. A vessel can stay encapsulated for up to a year - year and half with very little break down with this stuff - as i've seen here in the tropical sun... so i'm  sure it can handle what you have there.

well - no matter the method or material - i do wish you the best with this.

BTW while i'm thinking of it - How is the cost of living up there? Employment etc - Think of what you wold want to know if considering moving somewhere - and fill me in...

Does one need to learn another language - Japanese? - Spanish? - French? Or is English still the primary language in the area? Hey, i gotta ask... Coming here - learn Spanish - all types ( Mexican Cuban Purtirican etc) Jamaican - Haitian - Chzech - Russian - Proper Spanish(spain) Soudi etc... and don't mention your thinking of staying here - things /attitudes change very quickly if you do and not for the better. lol ;0) Oh and learn French too. and broken english.

use a seperate bank account for your travels here - they check to see how much a traveler has - even i was surprised to find that out.

OH and don't wave an American flag in Dade county area... ;0)

To be safe - Cuban or another country Flag only. It's not me saying it - It's the law! and i'm not sure which area it's leagal or illegal down there anymore.

And if you get a ticket - Florida doesn not forgive even tourists. Come back ten years later and not pay a parking ticket you will be arrested if checked. Many have found out the hard way.

Make sure the beach your thinking about swimiming in hasn't been closed in the past 4 months due to sewage / high fetcal bacterial counts. Or the one north of it. Water flows south here.

Don't eat the fish out of the intercostal or the local lobster. They are possibly tainted.

Just some travel tips in turn for you or those thinking of coming to the South FL area...

take care and again thanx

chase

Dang dude,  did you take a typin class or sumtin, sup with that?!  ;-}>

No, really if I tried to type that much it would take me six hrs. to proof it.

That really is an amazing pack that guy made, more so cause it was his first sewing project.  Kinda likepicking up a guitar for the first time and being able to play Hendrix right of the bat.

Tyvek is very durable (they use it as disposible hasmat suits, envelopes, and all kids of other items that need to really durable as you cannot tear it) but one of the cool things about it is you can sew it at home, and it's either free or is bought really cheap as seconds/over buys.  People either buy too many rolls or don't use a full roll at the end of there house and then usually sell it for half price (unused rolls) and or give way half rolls.  It goes for $150 for a 9ft X 150 ft long new and I regularly see it for $75 per unused roll, that's alot of tyvek.  I usually see it for sale at half price on craigslist.    Housing in Portland OR must be going strong as that where I find most of it, usually in  batches of 1 or 2 rolls.  So even if its not as durable as you expensive gear, you, lope of a piece of off your roll and sew it on yourself, if you mess it up, dosen't mater you still have a whole roll.  With all that being said you will not be viewed as a "cool" packer when standing next to the guys with the Dana's,  Bora's, Mchales,  and many, many others 

With  my silicone sauce I used it on Tyvek (A), cause I think that other than being ugly(Tyvek) it's a great product for the kinda stuff I want to do, and (B), If it works on tyvek I can try it on everything else like my tents and backpacks,etc.  I picked Tyvek cause someone gave me a 3 ft roll.  I didn't want to be buying material just for expermentation.

Cool pictures and  what you showed there was cool and intriguing but I just want to do a few tents and some other items like delaming backpacks and things like that.  All the back packs that are delaming on the inside are being thrown out by people so I use them to strore my tents.  I belive that I can bring them back to life.  Not that that really matters as most people I run into "want" to spend $300-$500 on a   backpack.  You have no idea how much great gear I pass up when I'm looking for my tents.  For everything I do buy I would guess I pass up 20 great deals on things I can't use, already have or plain just can't justify owning.  My house is so full of gear that I have to be carefull about what I buy as I have much I will never use.

What I did with the silicone was to find a thinner and thinned it down to to a watery state where it will run of the material so it's a very thin film when it drys and well as soaking into the material.   What this also did was, as it was necessary to us a oil based thinner it acted as carrier to pull the silicone into the material .  As it soaks into the material ( I can very slightly feel the silicone on the opposite side of the tyvek)  it is in effect impregnated into the material.  If it'll soak thru Tyvek then it'll soak into and thru all of the materials that we use in the gear we use for backpacking.  I'm not much interested in single wall breatheable materials as they are very expensive and for almost everything that they use a gortex like material in/for there are other much cheaper options.  There really is nothing I can do at home to chaned how tthese materials work.  That's not to say I don't own single wall breathable items that I do find useful. They  are just way to expensive (new) and finicky, quite often, and only need to be used in certian instances.  I'm not knocking Gortex (and like materials) but I think their used more as vehicle to sell things rather than only used where needed as a vapour barrier.  Back to the the sauce.  Now that I can apply this with no special items, a can and a brush, all that remains is to test it in UV conditions.  I'm hanging 2 pieces of sauce treated Tyvek,  tied out in the shape of a bag, with 2 gallons of water in each in an old temporary grauge that has lost it's cover, due to UV degredation.  I'll hang  each one so that each side will be exposed to the sun.  As this is early on in it's expermintation I don't know where this will lead, but all the items I'm using in this are either cheap or free.   I'm really tired of watching all this money go out to all this expensive equiptment and want to find alternitives.  As my efforts to show people how to get really cool equiptment for next to nothing has met with very little sucess, I guess I will have to buy it all myself.  Darnit, but I digress.......I seem to do that alot.  The next test after this one will be to see how it holds up to actual use.  We'll see, as this will be a long test as I will leave it out for the rest of the summer.   In the mean time I'm going to get some 9 ft wide Tyvek stock and make a tarp with my sause. I'm also about to try out a new product that is oil based and designed to handle UV ray's for up to 5 years.   One of the complaints about Tyvek is that it is a stiff material and that it makes a snapping sound in the wind.  I have taken care of this by crumpeling it and then running it thru a cold cycle in the front load washer (no soap), then, once it has dried apply the sauce on it and it then acts more like regular material in sofar as not being so stiff and  noisy in the wind.  Mine now makes no noise in the wind.   Another great application for tyvek will be to use it as a UV tent cover so if your tent/tent fly is out in the sun you just cover it up during the day.   It weighs next to nothing so is easy to take along as a spare cover/tarp/bivy/?.   If and when your $5 piece of Tyvek degrades, you................cut another one of off the roll........sometimes it just get to simple.

So, Chace, If you want to come up and and camp out on the property for a couple of weeks (+/-) your more than welcome.  Yes we have Dungeness crab as well as one or two smaller types that you can harvest.  We have many, many wonderful things here minus the Big City.  We did not take a hit like the rest of the country did thru the recession, not to say we were not affected, but again nuthing like the rest of the country.  The Olympic Peninsula has always been behind the Seattle side in regards to a booming economy, one of the reasons I like it over here on my side, but that also means the standard of living is cheaper here than the Seattle side.  I'm 15-20 min from the ferry that takes me to Seattle.  Then it's a one hour ferry ride to the big city.  very ofter you wil see eagles, sealions, and everyonce in a wile Orcas.  The only other language you might need to know is Canadian (eh), yes those folk that live North of the boarder, as we are just a few hr's from the boarder.  I do in fact own a 20 acre piece of property (different than the one I live on) were you can stand there and look into Canada..............looks the same to me.  As I don't work I would be able to show you around, at least what I know, there is still much I don't know, but always much more I want to do.  You would want to do this during the spring/summer as during the fall/winter it rains.  The rain usually starts mid Sept. more or less and then does not stop till spring time.  I do live just an 2 hours from the Olympic Rain Forest(s) after all.  You would not want to camp out here in the winter....... very wet and nothing ever drys.  I usually use my woodstove to dry things out thru out the winter months.  We have two mountian ranges the Cascades and the Olympics.    I don't know what you do for work but everyone I know that has come up here has had zero problems finding work.  I've let a few of my family and friends stay on the property (camping) so they could come up to check the area out as it's silly to spend money if your willing to camp, though you must have your own transportation as I'm out in the sticks .    If your really interested we should talk over the phone.  I just can't type as much as you (except today) as well as I'm old school and like to talk to poeple.  One of the things that's nice about living on the Olympic Peninsula, as opposed to the Seattle side,  allows me to do is  not have to work and still have a good life style.  I worked really hard for a few years and bought property just right and paid it of as quickly as possible.  I don't want anything bigger or better so I don't have to work to keep climbing my way up the housing ladder.  I only mention this cause you almost can't do that on the Seattle side.  There is much land here on the Olympic Peninsula that is still way affordable.  Plop a trailer down on it and get started.  Or buy your land work in Seattle and pay it of and come over to this side to live, manywasy to do it.   I keep my bill's down around $300/month including property taxes, and my property is payed off as well as raising my own meat and veggies.  I only mention this because you mentioned cost of living.  The cost of living is very low here if you don't fall into the great American trap of buying everything new and or the use of credit.  I haven't used credit in 25 years and have no plans to do so the rest of my life, well see how that goes. I will be going on a biking (M/C)/camping trip from July 19th - the 1st(+/-).  PM me if you want to come up and check out the area after that.   I'll post picts of the hanging (Tyvek) bags out in the sun later, but it looks just like the above pic except there are two and they are outside in the sun.

Lol - looking back i did type a bit didn't I...? lol sorry about that.

As mentioned - i can be pretty impassionate about what happened here besides it in my face every day. (last week they found a white guy dead a block from where i live - saw it on the way to 7-11 that morning - he starved to death... and i get a littel ticked off about these things and ask why..? And i know why...

I like everybody please don't miss read my statements into thinking i am prejudice or something and it may come off that way in reading, but i'm not. - i'm not prejudice in any regard.

- i'm just protective of what i feel is right - Not who's right. And I'm not saying it was perfect here before - or things didn't need addressing. It wasn't and many changes needed to take place - but so many wrongs to the good things and parts of Floridia and our way of life and what we had that made us different from the rest of the world - allowed us to stand out - the desire for others to see and visit us. So many things have been done not only to myself here with BS justifications, but to many of the locals and yes even the Nation in regards to South Florida's Coast, as this is the only place in America with a reef system - and we had world wonders here - Spring Break in Fort Lauderdale - International Fashion meca in Miami - and the list goes on of what we had to offer our nation and the rest of the world that made us special and different from every where else - and now that has be destroyed by - Americans and out side influences - by our own local governement selling us out. And i think people should know about it, as most don't know what happened here except what they tell you - if they tell you on TV, and i'd hate to see it happen to anyone else their town.

And one of many reasons i don't watch TV anymore - i'm sick of the lies and have been for as long as i can remember.

...and besides that, as you might can tell, i typed or talk perhaps too much, as like to talk R&D about just about anything and can all day long! lol ;0)

yeah, i took a typing class in high school - i was hot for teacher - she was smokin!

Tyvek comes in 9 foot wide rolls - i have a layout for a Tarp tent - one of my favorites actually and super easy to set up.

 - i'll post the pattern for it. It utilizes a 9x12 tarp in the pattern but i have used the same pattern for larger tarps. Since you are seasoned - you probably have or know of many yourself but i'll post it for you and others that might be interested.

The one thing i like about the tarp tents is - you can stand up in them to get dressed.

Glad to hear your self relient - are you off the grid as well? I have tons of stuff for getting off the grid or going alternate fueling or low cost high efficiency electric - most of it is actually old tech - reborn or re-discovered.

And on a side note - Hollywood did listen to me about some of this and is starting to utilize the alternate lighting and solar as well as they are about to use wind for gov building energies... one good / smart thing they are doing here on the positive side of things.

Going with underground electric lines another - since we have huricanes and squalls here - makes sense - and people tend to like it when a telephone pole isn't thrust through their roofs due to a storm...  though they are modeling Hollywood after San Diego Ca... (which has it's own serioous issues) they still won't do the one thing that makes even bigger sense - do the street sweeping like San Diego - probably one of the best things about San Diego - one of the cleanest large towns i've ever been too - but here - the towns drainage is clogged since they won't clean the streets... go figure...must be rock science i'm talking right? lol frackin morons i tell you... complete frackin morons.

Anyway... From what i was also reading is that according to demografics, Seabeck is primarily a couples comunity - for me, though it looks great and the wilderness is stunning - it seems it would be more a great place for family to settle, saying that - I'm single, and still sowing oats so to speak - it would be good to check it out though - get to see the area and what is around it. Olympia (sp?) Rain forest - i saw a pic of that - like that even more... super lush from what i see in the pic.

Transpo - i have my E Bike - does 90miles currently before running out and my new modifications - i think i may reach 250 to 300 miles distance before needing a recharge... if my circuit and calculations are correct that is.

I love it - especially when out in the woods or on the more traveled trails as it is whisper quiet. And hauls my gear - photo and camping with no issue or stress up small hills and bridges so... that is a huge plus. Saves the back from carrring it to a main local/base camp i guess you would call it before treaking what gear i need further in on day trips.

When people see it they ask a ton of questions as it has a unusual look.

On getting gear - you and me both buddy - i have several paks i need/want to recondition i pick up at the swap shop used. too good to pass up.

One thing about the west coast i noticed last time i was there - you guys are serious about back packing and have some of the coolest gear. Some though i'll admit - i would spend 4-500 for... little out of my league and i can't justify spending that much for a pack. Most i spent on a pak was $70 new on sale. My other packs are framed - i like the framed ones. but do have some day packs i like as well that have interal frames.

As for a phone number - don't post it here - send it via pm if you wish.

I don't have one - got rid of them ( had two cell numbers but - didn't see the need to talk to any one via cell and pay $70 bucks a month just for phone calls from telamarketers each month. For contact now to everyone  i just use email, for then i call or go see them locally. When i have a need for one, i'll get one, like if i start another business up

I used to build and maintain custom aquariums here and was toughted by a SW Tech mag as one of the worlds top ten in my field) Harbor Branch research invited me in and pretty much gave me car bache to check out their facillity as wel as Monteray Bay Aquarium when i was there last time - real impressive how they have their facilty set up. And they were real nice in showing me around the facilty.

I got to stand on the sub that you may have seen on Discovery Channel in many of the underwater movies they show at HB. Amazing submarine the one with the big bubble in front. here it is ( I'm not in this video, but that is the sub.)

anyhow - now i do just about every thing and anything that pays a fair wage for a mans work and skip the ones that don't.

If you feel so inclined - send a pm if you care to - I won't be heading out for a while, i was going to head out on the 15th of last month but - monies fell short - timing was off - and gear needs further checking and some upgrades and supplies added - so i'm not sure when i'll be heading out to start this treak in search of....  but will keep your time frames in mind as well given advice for heading your way and a time to arrive and not arrive.  Besides, it's raining here how - has been every day for about 10 days now and i really don't want to start out soaking wet for this journey the first few nights

Then again - as they say here if you don't like the weather wait ten minutes and it'll change... ;0)

talk soon

chase ( with an S) lol ;0)

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