ANOTHER DANG HOLE!!! What should I get for Down?

5:14 p.m. on December 3, 2011 (EST)
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The first hole in my Mountain Hardwear Nitrous down sweater was on me......too close to the Pocket Rocket. But today, out of the blue.....no particular reason, there is a small hole under the arm of the coat. I was lifting my dog so can only think a toenail snagged it though I never felt it. If it is THAT delicate, how can I depend on it and what SHOULD I get for my insulation!

5:46 p.m. on December 3, 2011 (EST)
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giftogab said:

The first hole in my Mountain Hardwear Nitrous down sweater was on me......too close to the Pocket Rocket. But today, out of the blue.....no particular reason, there is a small hole under the arm of the coat. I was lifting my dog so can only think a toenail snagged it though I never felt it. If it is THAT delicate, how can I depend on it and what SHOULD I get for my insulation!

I think what you might be experiencing is the mixing and I do not know of what degree of the American way of making things. Things are getting so light and so thin (they will say in the name of UL) that it is getting hard to even use things. I can't help on what to buy as a down sweater as I have never owned a down sweater and most likely won’t till they achieve there true value in price at a Goodwill store. A items real value comes when your go to resell it not when it is bought in the stores, as people in this country will pay what ever they ask. IMHO. It is interesting to note that for years and years people did what your preparing to do without much of the gear we use today. Most of the American gear sold out their in my opinion is for the urban mountaineering community. Mostly climbing stairs and such. It used to be that when you bought a piece of equipment from and American Mountaineering company they had a life time warranty because no one ever needed to use it and if you did it was because your used the heck out of the item. Now so much of the stuff gets used a few times in an urban setting, so why make it so it needs to live up to the standards of most of Americans will not use it for.  This country is getting fatter not healthier.  You may either have to spend a lot of money to get a good product or look towards quality vintage gear that still holds a lifetime warranty. I still have my Holubar expedition parka that I bought at the TNF store in Boulder 30+ years ago. I wore the heck out of that thing and other than one patched hole that was my fault it still looks new.

.

6:03 p.m. on December 3, 2011 (EST)
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I may have to ditch the down sweater idea and get something more substantial....but I am clueless and suspicious at this point.

8:07 p.m. on December 3, 2011 (EST)
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Sorry to hear about the holes.Now what I am going to share is just how I do down gear and your mileage may vary.I must add that I have a down bag that is roughly 30 years old in mint shape,down parka 30 years old in mint shape and the list goes on.I do know accidents happen but for me my down gear is only used for my outdoors adventures and not when working with my dogs.When cooking it is just thru being very cautious ,and some good fortune,that I have never melted any nylon,gear is to expensive to replace.I still like down the most for true cold weather,under 20 degrees f.Even here in the pnw I have never had a problem keeping it dry and intact.For bushwacking  I turn to other materials.I do carry a patch kit of simple items,duct tape being my favorite, but upon return to home I patch with nylon,ripstop,and a good adhesive and stitching.Your second hole may also be just a defect in the sewing of your garment.I have had to restitch several MH garments I have purchased and none were very old nor had hard use.ymmv

8:59 p.m. on December 3, 2011 (EST)
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I bought a llbean waxed cotton down jacket and haunt looked back. being waxed cotton it is super tough and durable, and also very waterproof. I do not baby this jacket at all and it holds up like a champ. the cons? a little heavier and doesn't pack down as small. I am comfortable sitting around camp with just a l/s capaliene 3 under it down to 15f. with more layers I have gone to -30f. I have an xl and it weighs like a pound and 3/4. best 100$ I have spent in awhile. I also use it around town.

9:23 p.m. on December 3, 2011 (EST)
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I expected I could use this while hiking/climbing and not have to be soooooo ultra careful I did check to see if this were a seam sewn issue, but it isn't, it is a puncture mid panel. :(

1:31 a.m. on December 4, 2011 (EST)
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My take on the down sweaters is I would not want them to be the outside layer, due to the thin shell they all have.  I always put a shell garment over mine while in use.  No problems.

Ed

8:36 a.m. on December 4, 2011 (EST)
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you are observing the downside (pun intended) of super light down sweaters, and lightweight gear generally - it's more prone to damage.  then again, any modern down jacket or shell that's made of nylon, lightweight or heavy duty, can get damaged when applied to a hot stove.  

you can find duct tape in practically every color of the rainbow, why not just patch it? 

11:15 a.m. on December 4, 2011 (EST)
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LEAD....I did patch it, but I am not sure I want to depend on it for my trek if I can get something a bit more durable. I am trying to calculate whether I made an error choosing lightweight down for my insulation for this trek. I don't like things getting torn when they shouldn't and I am not easy on stuff. I use it and I use it hard. I saw in Climbing Magazine the First Ascent jacket was rated high for being able to scuff it on rocks etc, but it was not rated well for the colder temps. Going to look at their expedition/guide versions too.

11:19 a.m. on December 4, 2011 (EST)
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giftogab said:

LEAD....I did patch it, but I am not sure I want to depend on it for my trek if I can get something a bit more durable. I am trying to calculate whether I made an error choosing lightweight down for my insulation for this trek. I don't like things getting torn when they shouldn't and I am not easy on stuff. I use it and I use it hard. I saw in Climbing Magazine the First Ascent jacket was rated high for being able to scuff it on rocks etc, but it was not rated well for the colder temps. Going to look at their expedition/guide versions too.

 I am really considering FA's BC Microtherm jacket. 

Here is the womens version:

http://www.eddiebauer.com/catalog/product.jsp?ensembleId=40154

12:03 p.m. on December 4, 2011 (EST)
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Looking closely at that. The woman's cut may not work for me....anytime they cut in the waist, I have a harder time....but I think I will snag one and see. No stores near me so have to wing it. I have the Hangfire Hoodie and love it. But had to get the men's in that. Was in Frisco at the time and was able to go to the store.

12:05 p.m. on December 4, 2011 (EST)
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That jacket that Rick recommended looks like a good jacket for you.  The other option I thought of was to find an unlined hard shell to wear over the top to protect it.

12:49 p.m. on December 4, 2011 (EST)
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ocala...yes.....both options seem to be the ones that make the most sense. I prepfer one jacket, so am going to try to talk to EB and see what they can tell me about fitting so that I can order the best. May need to get men's and then have the sleeves altered. But the Velcro wrist helps when the sleeves are too long,

1:15 p.m. on December 4, 2011 (EST)
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That sucks! I feel your pain! I've put a few holes in my UL gear by now, and I don't like to go any lighter the 1.0oz Pertex Quantum. Your situation highlights what is an often common thread among users of UL gear: Ideally, one should be vary aware of the limitations of UL techniques and engineering, and when those limits have not yet been found damage can, and likely will, happen.

Ed's advice is sound. There is no way I'd ever hold a dog while wearing a down sweater as my outer layer. Same goes for operating or setting up a stove. Same goes for reaching into any compartment in my pack which contains a bare metal object. Same goes for firewood gathering and setting up camp.

But, sometimes one's thought process is: Well, I brought this down sweater to save weight! It's windproof anyways, so why would I still bring a shell? While this line of thought is helpful at times, and does help one to find said limits of one's UL gear, it is often useful to bring even just a light windshirt along. I really like my Houdini as it employs a fabric just a touch heavier than Pertex Quantum which holds up really well to pack straps and hipbelts, while remaining totally windproof and very water resistant. I almost always bring along the extra 4oz of the Houdini because it is just a very useful garment, with a hood, simple and effective elastic wrists/waist closure, and remarkably abrasion-resistant fabric for the weight. With just very little attention one can effectively use it as an outer layer for the activities listed above.

Plus, even though the fabric used in these down sweaters is windproof, the sew-through construction employed with many of them--almost all of them--is not. A fair amount of heat is "lost" though the stitching holes. Adding a windshirt can often increase one's warmth by a surprising degree.

So, don't buy a new down sweater, buy a windshirt.

2:07 p.m. on December 4, 2011 (EST)
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My 10+ year old down bag started squirting feathers a few weeks ago and I just repleced it with a REI artifical insulation bag.

3:16 p.m. on December 4, 2011 (EST)
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I agree that I will not buy a new down sweater. And I agree it was dumb to be round the stove with it...especially since the sleeves are a bit long for me. But my thinking is, UL is not the main desire in my insulation layer. I only have to carry the best of the warmest for the highest few days of the trek. The rest it will be on the YAK. So the sweater may suffice with a shell. I just got back from REI trying various things on. My problem: Woman's are just not made for any extra weight and I am not petite. Men's arms are like gorillas. It is no wonder fat women on the couch stay on the couch if we cannot get things to fit. If I were rich I would make a line of cloths for bigger women and dare then to undergrow them. I may just have to wait untill I am in San Fran leaving for Nepal to go to EB or Mormot or Northface and get this piece whe I know I am at my trekking weight.

6:46 p.m. on December 4, 2011 (EST)
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giftogab said:

I agree that I will not buy a new down sweater. And I agree it was dumb to be round the stove with it...especially since the sleeves are a bit long for me. But my thinking is, UL is not the main desire in my insulation layer. I only have to carry the best of the warmest for the highest few days of the trek. The rest it will be on the YAK. So the sweater may suffice with a shell. I just got back from REI trying various things on. My problem: Woman's are just not made for any extra weight and I am not petite. Men's arms are like gorillas. It is no wonder fat women on the couch stay on the couch if we cannot get things to fit. If I were rich I would make a line of cloths for bigger women and dare then to undergrow them. I may just have to wait untill I am in San Fran leaving for Nepal to go to EB or Mormot or Northface and get this piece whe I know I am at my trekking weight.

 

"What should I get for Down?"

I was a little confused ( as I'm prone to be after a long night of hotubbing and Barley wine) as to before I joined Trailsapce I'd never heard of a "down sweater". So, I Google down sweaters and it appears to me that they are hoodless/hooded lightweight down coats with baffling built so that they are not so puffy so as to be used as a mid layer when using the layering technique. They seem to have exceptionally fragile shells as they are not made to be worn as an outer garment. Is this the correct assumption? I looks to me upon further investigation that they are so light weight that one needs to even be careful taking them out of the closet. It appears to me that they are so fragile that one needs to use shell of some sort with them as they could tear if I look at them wrong. Then I went and looked at the price of these down sweater and not again really...............for that.............really........for those.......sigh..............continued sighing.

The way I remember how your doing your trip is that the majority of your gear will be carried up the mountain on any number of four legged creatures right? If so why not think of a reall expedition parka that you can also layer  with underneath if necessary. Most of the down coats can be stuffed down into very small packages so that they can be used at different times during your journey.  For the price of new down sweaters I can show you these.

So you ask "What should I get for Down?"

For close to the same as a new down sweater  you can get a used or As New down parka which will in my mind provide much more use than these "down sweater things", though they are a different animal. Instead of a down sweater might you be better off layers of wool covered by either a down coat/shell and or one of the newer Breathable fabric shell outers/zip in fleece. I prefer my goose down coats as I feel they are way warmer and it you do it right you can still layer. Here is what I have and have been finding available.

This is the North Face Baltoro Down jacket with 800 down-fill with gore-Dryloft and radiant technology on the inner side. I would consider this to be a medium heavy maintaining down coat with a has a expedition hood that is removable via a zipper. I've always wanted one of these. The guy who had this On Ebay was asking $350 or make and offer. I offered him $200 assuming he would not get back to me. He responded with $250. I jumped on that. I think this was made in 2008. It was made in China and there is nothing inferior about this coat, nothing. When I got it in the mail I opend it up and it smelled new, looked new. I believe that it had never been warn. With the Gore Dryloft it will breath well and should be fully warm when worn it just a few properly matched layers.

DSC05196.jpg

 

Here is a Snow Lion that I picked up on a trade for a pair of down booties.  A true old school mountaineering parka that was used by a doctor for many years to summit many of the tallest mountians on the planet.  At least that's the story.  One of the reasons I like buying/having vintage gear is that so much of it has a long history of stories.  Then of cource, like the Baltoro it has no story.  It sat in a closet until I bought it.  I'm ok with that as well.
DSC05197.jpg

 

 

Here is my Holubar expedition parka that I bought at TNF store in Boulder CO when TNF was not a clothing Boutique but a real mountaineering store, back around 1981+/-. I went into the store to buy a TNF expedition parka that was advertised at an at the end of the year sale. When I got there they had the TFN parkas right next to the Houlbar Parkas. They were the same coat made by the same company but the TNF was $175 more and had a hood. The Holubar parkas was a $175 less, were also on sale but had no hoods. This was one of my clues that all this brand name gear things was and is really, really stupid(IMHO). Or at least that I could end up being really, really smart saving a load of money and have the same thing. After talking to the very informed staff I found that they had TNF hoods on sale for $25. For another $25 I could have the zippered Hood attached to the Holubar Parka and have a TNF parka for the Price of a Holubar parka, as they were the same thing. And so started my journey of finding great deals on wonderful outdoor gear. This coat in 100 % inside , 35% cotton/65 poly outer. It does get wet in the rain so I wear a  Moonstone Gore-Tex shell that I got at Goodwill for $15 when I wear it out side in the rain. This parka has a lable with the name of who made it and who inspected it.  I do so long for the old day’s in some way’s.  Wopuld it not be tooo cool to call up the manufacturing plant and talk to the guy/gal that made your piece of gear?

DSC05195.jpg

I've only seen a few of the down sweaters at the Goodwill. I never checked the brand names on them as I just assumed they were cheesy made down coats coming out of China. The Baffling looked to me to be made to hold down the loft so as to make it look stylish rather than keeping one warm so one does not look like the Pillsbury dough boy or the Michelin man. I now see that they are designed to be a warming layer. Dang, mighty expensive, single use, delicate/fragile warming layers. But I guess if that what, than that’s what people get. Seems people are eating them up so there is a market for them.

Here is a nice one on eBay made by Marmot for a really good price of $99 with no bids. I do know however tht I can get 15-20 Marino wool sweaters of different thicknesses at the Goodwill store as sweaters at the Goodwill average $5+/-

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Tags-Marmot-Black-Venus-Jacket-Sweater-800-Fill-Down-Size-Large-/270863574263?pt=US_CSA_WC_Outerwear&hash=item3f10ba24f7

11:45 p.m. on December 4, 2011 (EST)
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Frankly, I just am not in to buying things used. At least not cloths. Maybe it is having to have done it as a kid and working my way out of that situation. But I always give my stuff away later to those who are not fortunate.

6:57 a.m. on December 5, 2011 (EST)
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One other thing I do when using a lighter weight jacket and not my waxed cotton one is to put my l/s columbia hiking shirt over the jacket. I do this with a pantagonia nano puff and it works well. I bring the nano puff for 3 season use and the l/s columbia hiking shirt has proven to be a good protector from the stray ember etc.

8:57 a.m. on December 5, 2011 (EST)
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Generally, down sweaters have a specific use. They are geared more towards a three season approach and are intended for hikers, backpackers for weight savings, packability, pillow use and mountain climbers who make their ascents using an alpine style (done in a day ) approach. Most of the time the sweater stays in the pack, squished, and pulled out when the person takes a break to conserve their heat. Once they go on the move, it goes back in the pack. They are fairly sturdy when you consider the materials used, but, they do require some pampering to keep them from being damaged. I have two, a synthetic (for high humidity or wet conditions) and a goose down version. One is a marmot and the other a Patagonia (or patagucci! LOL). I try to limit my use of them to the hiking and backpacking aspect but will wear them occasionally around town but never doing chores. For base camp use something more durable would be a better option.

9:06 a.m. on December 5, 2011 (EST)
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Yeah...I was too naive about their use and function. Gonna keep losing weight and choose a more durable down like the one rick suggested when I get closer to the trek. I looked for the waxed cotton at LL BEAN but could not see them offering one anymore.

2:22 p.m. on December 5, 2011 (EST)
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Here is a link to the llbean website , they are definitely on there. Just search 'waxed cotton down jacket'.

http://www.llbean.com/llb/search?init=1&cache=1&freeText=waxed%20cotton%20down%20jacket

I could not be happier with this jacket. I wanted an insulating jacket I didn't have to pamper and that I could also use as an outer shell in camp. Like I said its a little heavier and more like a parka as it has room to layer underneath and also has a heavy duty shell that is wind and waterproof. This jacket is worth the weight penalty IMO.

I tend to be a little rough on my shells and the only two shells I have found to really be able to take a beating without any ill effect is my ECWCS goretex shell, and this waxed cotton jacket.

If there is an LLbean store near you i recommend going to try them on and give them a look, as they have them in the store this time of year.

11:31 p.m. on December 5, 2011 (EST)
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Rambler: I am grabbing one so I can test it out! I think it might be the answer!

7:53 a.m. on December 6, 2011 (EST)
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I find it kinda funny that this thread is going on and my sister brings back my pantagonia nano puff she borrowed with 2 burn holes in it. Grrr!!!

Not the end of the world by any means, but i always took a little extra effort to protect it because it was fragile in nature. Not quite as painful since I got this nano puff for 'free' using airline miles, but still. Just another example of why its important to take proactive measures to protect these more fragile garments from flying embers, abrasion, and getting snagged on brush etc.

9:02 a.m. on December 6, 2011 (EST)
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I think the LLbean with the nano in the bag might be just right for the 18.5k portion of the trek. Sorry about the burns, I bet she felt awful.

11:49 a.m. on December 6, 2011 (EST)
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My UL sleepingbag which I have used 278 days a year for 11 years is a down squirter now. I stopped using it recently as every morning when I would wake in my tent I would be covered with down feathers that had squirted out during the night.

I tried patching it which worked on the pacthed areas but minute holes or something in the UL fabric would cause it to let the pointed ends of the down to squeeze thru.

I just replaced my 1.4 lb Golite 20 degree down bag with a REI Solar Pod 25 degrees bag which is polarguard or something.

12:58 p.m. on December 6, 2011 (EST)
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some of this depends on what temperature range you are aiming for, i think.  for me, down sweaters in the 20-50 range; not so great once it gets colder.  also, some of it depends on the most likely ways you will damage your gear and the way you compromise your needs.

buying something that can survive an encounter with a candle lantern or stove would be overkill for me.  waxed cotton definitely resists heat and punctures better than ultralight nylon.  but, it is heavy, doesn't pack well, doesn't breathe well.  fine for sitting in a stadium or walking the dog in the woods when it's cold; not my choice for a trip.   

i'[m most concerned about rips, tears, and puncture wounds.   the down parka i wear when i'm sitting still in the winter is a mountain hardwear sub zero.  i like that the shoulders and forearm shell material is heavier, less likely to get torn or punctured.  very warm; best for 10 degrees and colder, for me anyway.  appears they stopped making this jacket.  a shame. 

1:20 p.m. on December 6, 2011 (EST)
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I am worried about the weight of the waxed cotten, but will have the walk the dogs use for it if it proves too big for the trek. I am aming for zero degree and maybe a bit lower, good chance of wind. It will be a rigerous hike to the 18.5k summit and starts before dawn. So I will ahve a base, a mid and down with a shell, or down that is durable, hopefully.

2:07 p.m. on December 6, 2011 (EST)
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The waxed cotton down jacket for me suits my needs perfectly, it may not be for everyone.

Pros: Durable, warm, waterproof, windproof, rugged Cons: Heavy, can be too warm if trying to wear it while active, doesnt pack down as small

The waxed cotton down jacket for me is perfect. I just hate having to baby flimsy materials and gear. If I have to carry an extra few oz it is worth it IMO to protect my investment.

I do NOT usually wear the waxed cotton jacket while active unless it is REALLY cold (like -20+).Most people don't wear their down when active anyway. Normally it is reserved for camp use, camp chores etc. I also wear it around town in the winter. With just a short sleeve shirt I am comfortabl down to 15F or so in the jacket, add my capaline 3 l/s and a wool sweater and I am fine easily to 0F and below.

Just this past weekend It was 25F here in CT and i was fine with a s/s techwik shirt from ems on under it without even zipping up the jacket.

2:44 p.m. on December 6, 2011 (EST)
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I used to live in a climate that got very cold in the winter. 20-40 below. Now I live in Vegas and it only gets cold a few days a year. It was in the high twenties today and I froze to ice! That used to seem warm in December as a high where I was from. So leaving vegas for the altitudes of a Nepal trek will treat me different than when I was at least used to a real winter.

2:45 p.m. on December 6, 2011 (EST)
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I agree with others that I have never had a problem with a basic down jacket getting holes because I rarely wear it for anything other than hiking, and even then when I do wear it it's usually at camp to stay warm. I can imagine that if I wore it around home that I would eventually rip holes in mine too...

If you have to wear it in more extreme temps to stay warm even during vigorous activity, wear your shell over it to break the wind and also protect it from getting damaged.

My guess though is that at reasonably low elevations (for Everest at least) on your trek, wearing a base layer, mid layer, and maybe a soft shell will keep you warm enough without needing down until you are at camp and not generating as much heat. You typically don't see climbers on Everest wearing down while actively hiking or climbing until they get above Camp 3, and most treks end at Base Camp or Advanced base camp depending on which side you trek on.

In camp though, you usually see ppl wearing down because with activity levels low, they get colder.

Again, if it WAS too cold even while hiking, throw on the down but wear a shell over it if you're worried about something ripping it.

3:57 p.m. on December 6, 2011 (EST)
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Sounds like you need to take some straw with you Lyza

5:08 p.m. on December 6, 2011 (EST)
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That callahan...he funny!

10:06 p.m. on December 9, 2011 (EST)
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Finally got the down that I can live with. The UL down sweater will go in the pack for supplemental layering. Here is the go to if needed:

I also got a cloud fleece for mid

Deal of the day, 25 bux.

10:39 a.m. on December 10, 2011 (EST)
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what are your layers now gift what do you have from skin to hardshell? in that order would be easier to follow because you have more new items.

2:43 p.m. on December 10, 2011 (EST)
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SKIN:

Marino shirt short sleeved OR REI Base Layer long sleeved OR two Columbia 1/4 zip high collars.

MID:

First Ascent Fleece Cloud 1/4 zip

First Ascent Hang Fire Hoodie

Northface Fleece Jacket

Columbia Fleece Vest

Marmot Vest (non down, poly shell)

Northface Windwall jacket

2 pair softshell REI and Mountain Hardwear pants

1 Pair Columbia pants

INSULATION:

Mountain Hardwear UL Down sweater

Eddie Bower Yukon Down Jacket

HARD SHELL:

Mountain Hardwear Shell (i cannot remember the name but it is in the otehr thread. Iwill tryto find it and add it.)

Marmot Precip Jacket

REI Rain pants.

5 pair of wool mid weight REI Socks

5 pair silk liners

low gaitors

Balcava (light and heavy)

Everest wool hat with polor teck liner

REI expedition gloves and Moontain Hardwear light gloves

2 pair KEENS....lighter pair and all leather pair.

Trail Space CAP

ex oficio undies.

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