Closed Cell Pads

I have been hiking but not backpacking. When we go car camping we still use the old closed cell pads I had. One is a wreck-but usable- the other is in good shape. When I browse the wares at REI and EMS, I look at the thermarests, pick them up, and ask : this weighs more (to me) than the pads I use, what is so great about them? My budget has been tight lately, otherwise I would just buy one and find out. Any thoughts?

Personally I like ensolite (closed cell) foam pads - they're cheap, they're light and they don't give you a sinking feeling when they get punctured. I've been using them for over 35 years. What they're not is real compact, like some of the self inflating pads (I bought one, probably 10 years ago, used it for couple trips and then went back to "old faithful"). I use a 3/4 length pad, 3/8" thick (in winter I add a full length pad the same thickness under it). It's strapped to the outside of my pack, which makes it really convenient for use at lunch or rest stops when I don't feel like sitting on wet ground - I guess my attitude towards the "modern" pads is the same as yours - I don't get it.

Sabino, I have both a Ridgerest closed cell pad and a Thermo-rest inflatable pad. I use them both in winter, but otherwise, the Ridgerest is fine. Years ago, I used the cheap blue pads you get at almost any discount store for $10. This was before the fancier ones were around.

One pad to look at is the Z-Rest-it folds up like a map and takes up less space than the roll-up Ridgerest. There are some very light inflatable pads, but they are pricey. The inflatables are a little more comfortable than the closed-cell foam, but are heavier and way more money-to me those are the differences.

I've been using thermarest pads since they came out (anyone know when that was? I still have one I bought in the 70's).

I think they are heavier than a simple air mattress because they have some foam insulation in them, which makes them a bunch warmer (and gives them the ability to sorta self inflate a bit).

I usually use one in combo with a ridge rest. Plush. And a nice back up if I get a hole in the air mattress.

-Brian in SLC

Tom is right-the differences are comfort, cost and weight. I have a great inflatable pad; it is very comfortable, but it is too heavy for backpacking and cost nearly $100.00. For backpacking, I use the Z-rest mentioned by Tom: quite light and less than $30.00. Not as soft as the inflatable, but I don't use it for cushioning as much as for insulation from the cold ground.

That said, the majority of my hiking friends prefer their inflatables.

Hey Fred, that's what I did too. One of the pads has a corner cut out to use as a insulator for my svea. Used that piece for backpacking, through car camping with the kids, and this summer camping. Really should toss it, but it has sentimental value-as if it is a family hierloom or something. Two items I will never replace are the svea and my old candle lantern (although that pocket rocket by msr may win my affections).

Sabino - I'm with you - I still have a Primus 71 (purchased in the late 1960's or very early 1970's)- I've had it for a long time and won't part with it - but I haven't used it since I got my MSR Whisperlite in the mid 1980's. There's just something nice about having the pump rather than dumping fuel into the recess on top of the fuel tank and setting it ablaze!

I like rexim's summary. The differences are "comfort, cost, and weight". I used to use a plain ensolite pad. Then I got a Mountain Hardwear, which is a combination of open & closed cell foam, with a covering over it. The latter, while still probably not as comfortable as an inflatable pad, is much more comfortable than the thinner ensolite. In cold weather I use both, at least when car camping :-).

I started out with closed cell years ago and did just fine, however, when I was in my 20's I could sleep on a rock and wake refreshed. I've noticed more body parts wake up slower now, so I appreciate my 3/4 thermarest. However, body parts seem to hurt more now that I am in my 50's. Unfortunately, I hear this trend will continue to escalate;)

Sheese, these young kids complaining about slowing down with age. As an official card-carrying elderly (US Government certified), some of us get tougher with age. I still sleep on the ground, rocks, sticks, and all, sometimes. Blue foam pads are just fine - besides, they are much lighter (half pound for full length, compared to 1.5 pounds or more for a 3/4 length inflatable). Now, when I go on my Arctic, Antarctic, and deep winter on snow trips, I do use a double layer - full length blue foam (at $5.00) plus a 3/4 length classic Thermarest, just to get the insulation from the ice underneath.

OTOH, an acquaintance recently got back from Philmont, where he was an adult advisor for a Cavalcade trip (that's horseback trekking). He had pulled a muscle in his back shortly before the trip, so he took one of the new Thermarests that is a couple inches of "regular" Thermarest (foam-filled inflatable) with a couple inches of foam on top, covered in furry fleece - luxo, I am sure, but HEAVY!!! Since they were on horseback, the weight wasn't so important.

Hammocks are far more comfortable than any kind of foam on the ground, as Ed would tell you (if he ever returns). In my youth while living in Central America, I slept in hammocks every night. But we had trees available, and the bedrooms in the house were equipped with hooks for the hammocks. I don't find trees available when I sleep above treeline.

I was 51, still a kid in Bill's eyes, before I used any pad, and only started doing so because I noticed on a kayack trip to Grand Island in Lake Superior in September that my new lightweight sleeping bag was not insulating me from the cold ground. So now I carry a Z-rest and the sleeping bag, and I'm still lighter and warmer than I was before.

You give me hope. However, after 10 years in the army infantry as a bullet stopper (acutally I think the intercompany combat basketball caused more damage) then the 5 mtorcycle accidents (those pickup trucks crunch lotsa stuff), the parts just don't work the same. I should have spent more time on the trail and less on the road. The doctors appreciate the practice and the money. I'll just have to sacrifice a little weight because the pad helps;)

sorry Bill, I actually find sleeping in hammocks rather uncomfortable. I prefer a pad on the ground.

My problem with closed cell pads (I use a ridgerest, BTW) is that I still have to sleep with a camping pillow under my hips or lower back (depending on my sleeping position) or else I'll wake up in the middle of the night in pain. So the weight I save on the pad I gain with the pillow.

If I sleep on my side, my hip bone will hurt. If I sleep on my back, my lower back will hurt. If I sleep on my stomach in my mummy bag, that gets tricky.

Consequently, I'm experimenting with using a self-inflating thermarest this weekend to see if that eliminates the problem. Any other recommendations?

friend of mine had the same problem with hips and lower back hurting.

He bought one of the self-inflating pads specifically designed for women - they are thicker where your hips would lie.

Probelm solved.

I still remember the selling technique used by A-16 when I bought my first Thermarest pad in the 70's. I asked about the pad and he had one laying on a bench in the store and he had me lay on it. I thought it was pretty comfortable for being on a wood bench. I got up and he removed the pad from the bench. He had 1 1/2 inch nuts, bolts screws and other items laid out all over the bench and I had not been aware of them. I was sold and have been ever since.

tbastress, maybe you need padding in other places...as well.

http://www.rd.com/content/best-sleeping-positions-for-your-back/

or

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/sleeping-positions/LB00003_D&slide=1

I sleep on the side that is most comfortable. During the first 3 days while backpacking, I find that 4 sides are not nearly enough for a good night's sleep.

I am 61 and have had a number of very serious orthopaedic injuries; I also find that the 3/8" Ensolite pad of my misspent youth is somehow not enough.

I have a Big Agnes IAC plus Ridgerest rig that WORKS, several Thermarests plus cut-to-fit Thermarests and Z-Rests that work and am considering an Exped Deluxe-9. You MUST sleep well if you are going to boogie in the bush,, so, these may be worth packing.

I also have one of the original Thermarest 3/4 length, bright yellow pads, still good after some 30 years, wore an '80s full length out, it just finally split longitudinally and have three others. I prefer my Prolite-IV-large as a general duty pad and tend to take it on most jaunts.

speacock,

Thanks for the information. I could definitely tell the difference in comfort when I used the Thermarest Basecamp this past weekend instead of the Ridgerest. However, I still needed to use my pillow. I will try some of the things recommended in the links you posted next time to see if that helps further. I'd like to think that I can sleep comfortably in the backcountry, but maybe that just won't be the case...

tbastress - do you "groom" where you're going to sleep? I find that moving sticks, rocks and the like out from under where I'm going to sleep really helps make the body happy during the night. There have been times when I've been so bloody tired by the time I make camp I'm convinced I could have had a good nights sleep on a bed of nails ...

"do you 'groom' where you're going to sleep?"

I usually do go over the site to make sure 1) it's fairly flat, 2) sharp objects (sticks, acorns, rocks, etc) are removed 3) it's safe.

I spent this past weekend in an adirondack, so I was on a flat, even surface while I slept.

Okay,

I went camping this past Thanksgiving weekend, and again used my ridgerest pad. I tried using pillows to prop up my legs, etc., but I just could not get comfortable. I ended up waking up several times at night to change from one painful position to another. Finally, at 4:30am, I just decided to sit next to the fire and doze off in the chair. Surprisingly, I was more comfortable in the chair than on the ground with my sleeping pad...

Anyway, I will try the advice of Ed G next, and go buy a woman's prolite 4. I just would like to be able to camp/back pack as light as possible, and the ridgerest fits that bill. Of course, being comfortable is also a good thing.

An "ultralight" version of Thermarest is perhaps about 1/4 the bulk of a standard "blue" closed-cell pad, but about twice the weight. It is my primary mat.

I have yet to spring a leak in either of two Thermarest pads, and I NEVER, ever, strap them outside the pack for reasons that in part, should be obvious.

I have a very old, 3/4 length ensolite that, because of its very ragged condition, is now about the same bulk as the Thermarest and extremely light. I use it in summer, if weight is a primary worry. On snow, I like it with either ultralight or standard 3/4-length Thermarest.

The blue guy stays in my car for the times (not infrequent) that I forget to pack either.

"thickerer" is better.

i don't know if this is just my experience, but everytime i sleep on an inflatable pad, i lose so much air from it that by morning, i'm on the ground. they have always been more comfortable for me at the beginning, but by the time i wake up they're so flat that i'm sore all over. i would blame the soreness on age, but i'm only 20 years old. of course, i realize that i have only used a very few pads, mostly my roommate's thermarest, and that this is not indicative of the entire range of inflatable pads. i tend to stick with the closed cell pads on my on, because at least i know it will still feel the same in the morning, plus they're lighter

Couple things to check. In theory (that is, manufacturers' instructions), all you have to do to inflate them is open the valve, let it sit for a while, and the pad will inflate to the proper firmness. In reality, you have to add a little air. Problem is, most people get impatient and start blowing in their hot air (it only cools slightly from the body temperature in your lungs as it goes through your mouth and through the valve into the pad). Overnight, the air in the pad cools (it's on the cold ground, or for some of us, on the glacier or at least snow), which means the air pressure drops. By morning the pad is quite soft. The remedy for this is to let the pad inflate by itself for a while (set up your tent when you arrive in camp and unroll the pad with the valve open). Make sure you haven't put anything on the pad that will keep it from fully inflating. Cook your supper, chat with your friends, watch the stars, etc. Then, just before you get ready for bed, blow enough air in to make the pad really firm, even hard, and while still blowing, screw the valve closed. This way, it will still cool during the night and get a bit softer, but it won't be as soft.

Using a blue foam under the pad in snow and ice conditions helps a lot (there is a huge debate when using double pads on the glacier whether to have the ensolite on top or under the inflatable - if it's on top, it insulates you from the cold air in the inflatable and keeps you warmer, but if it's on the bottom, the inflatable stays warmer and firmer, giving more insulation than the other way around - take your choice).

When I have been on expeditions where we stay in a single camp for a while (such as spending a week waiting out a storm), I add a little air each day when the pad has cooled, and after the 2nd or 3rd day, it stays just the right firmness).

Hey, that's another advantage of ensolite pads (ie, closed cell). They do not have the problem of the air in inflatables cooling and thus losing pressure.

By the way, take a look at what the interior of your inflatable is like (it's in the advertising literature). Some of the thicker "comfort" pads have hollow tubes running through the internal foam, and others have other shaped cutouts. These intentional voids make the inflatable lighter, fill faster, and compress smaller. But they also have lower R-values than a "solid" foam, and those voids allow the air to cool more and compress more as their pressure drops due to dropping temperature in the pad. For example, it turns out that the "classic" 1-1/2 inch Thermarest has a higher R-value than the "comfort" 2-inch version (I got this from Cascade's literature). The "classic" is also significantly lighter and compresses smaller. Some people find it too firm, but I would rather stay warm when out in -40 degree weather, sleeping on ice.

You might also check that you do not have any leaks. Sometimes the valve does not seat completely, and sometimes a leak can develop where the valve is cemented in place. You can also get a pinhole somewhere in the pad without realizing it. One of my buds on a Denali climb had a tiny leak that left him with only the blue foam keeping him off the ice each morning. Finding a leak in sub-zero weather is a real challenge! We did manage to find it on about the 4th or 5th day, put on a patch from the official kit, and he slept warm and in comfort the rest of the climb. You can check for leaks more easily at home. Fill the bathtub with water. Blow the pad up as hard as you can. Then stick the pad under water and carefully examine the whole pad, including the valve, for any bubbles. It only takes a tiny bubble, forming and breaking loose at 30 second intervals to deflate the pad overnight (sound familiar from your bike tire fixing days as a kid? Same idea!). Once you find the pinhole or leaky valve, use the official kit to patch it (the official kit includes a tube of glue that has to be heated in boiling water, but really makes a solid seal).

Ck's concerns seem like the exception and Bill's response seens very accurate, but overly long (though I am terribly guilty of similarly offensive temptations).

Getz to my pernt re. NEVHA carry these things outside the pack. & strapping a closed-cell pad there is nearly as dumb, because it's gonna get wet & filthy there, and yer gonna need to sleep on the thing.

SO DON'T Strap anything outside yer pack unless you wanna be stupid or don't have good alternative, because it will get dirty, worn-out, or even lost. The function of a pack is to CARRY STUFF.

I've owned a couple of Thermarests for 10-15 yrs and gave up carrying patch kit long ago.... one day I'll be sorry.

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I have only had one self - inflatable in my camping life. It is now about 10 years old. It's a 1" light weight thermarest something or other.

It is in the same condition now as the day I received it. It never looses a noticable amount of air.

I store it under the bed, flat with valve open and never pack it until the night before I leave for the trip.

Packing = folded in half and rolled up (with valve open). When I obtain the smallest diameter I can, I then close the valve and hold the roll together with a web strap. This all goes into an Outdoor Research stuff sack and carried inside the pack.

If, you carry sufficient closed-cell foam padding to keep you warm and comfortable on an extended winter mountain trip, you WILL carry it outside your pack as there is no alternative. To keep it clean, simply either roll it in a light ground cloth, my choice is the ones from Integral Designs or use the large Thermarest stuff bags made for their bigger inflatbles.

I have packed my foamies on various packboards since the mid-'60s when we first were able to buy the old Black's of Greenock eggcrate type and never yet lost one. I now pack Ridgerests and use the green side up and silver down, rolled this way, they seem to keep dry and clean enough, even sans groundsheet. Haven't suffered from hypothermia from getting soaked from below or even diseases from soil-dwelling pathogens.

It's absolutely true that absolute statements, by their very nature, are frequently and perhaps even always incorrect, when subjective factors are relevant.

"SO DON'T Strap anything outside yer pack unless you wanna be stupid or don't have good alternative, because it will get dirty, worn-out, or even lost. The function of a pack is to CARRY STUFF."

Really. Guess I'm stupid. Due to lack of space, I do sometimes end up carring stuff strapped to the external of my internal.

If I was worried about things getting dirty, I wouldn't be camping in the first place

The late Colin Fletcher's book(s), and other sources, offer similar views to my own on strapping stuff outside of packs when other reasonable alternatives are available.

I don't view it as a Commandment carried down by Moses, but rather, just a matter of keeping things trim, clean and protected.

great. Just what I want to run into in the woods - a backpacker with OCD

Who cares what other's views are about carrying stuff outside the pack.

If a hiker wants to do it, the hiker should do it and if others don't like the hiker doing it, the others should either shut up or put the items in their own pack for the hiker.

Seems to me a lot of those guys in the desert, fighting for our country and those adventerous folks up on the mountains have a lot of items strapped to their packs.

You better run after them and tell them they have their underwear folded all wrong :).

and by the way - you have 15 posts... isn't it time you quit being a "guest" and officialy become a trailspace member?

By the time I had even heard of Colin Fletcher, I had been hiking in BC for 12 years, backpack camping for several years and working alone in remote wilderness for several years.

I learned how to carry items because I HAD to do it as a part of my Forest Service employment in regions such as the BC-Alaska border before the highway that leads to Alaska was built. I often carried my water cans, propane cylinders and wood outside of my pack, does that make ME ...stupid...?

I agree with Ed, go to Iraq or Afganistan and tell some of the troops how they should carry their gear; I am sure that they would really appreciate your "expertise".......

Gee, I guess all those years of carrying my Kelty external frame pack, with the sleeping bag strapped to the outside space provided on the frame, made me stupid, too. Now I'm just senile (lessee, now, I'm sure I put that Medicare card someplace, right next to my Golden Age card.....).

Do outside pockets for putting things like fuel bottles and ice tool loops (and crampon patches) count as "outside the pack"?

Err...I don't recall using the word "stupid." But if I did, I'm very sorry. I guess I did say that absolute statements are often false. Let me add that it would certainly be unreasonable to say that strapping stuff on a backpack is invariably and absolutely a bad idea. It's something I do sometimes. In fact, I lost a nice pair of cheap sandals that way a couple of years ago bushwacking out of the Adamant Range in BC.

I certainly didn't mention anything about our dear boys in Iraq, nor offer views on the adequacy of U.S. or Canadian military equipment and training.

By citing Colin Fletcher's advise, and that of others, I certainly didn't mean to git on "the fight'n side" of anybody. I do own and enjoy several of Merle Haggard records, though I thought he was mistaken about Vietnam.

But seriously, if you needed to drive from Oklahoma to California, would you rather do it in the Beverly Hillbillies' pick-up truck while pulling a trailer, or just pack everything into a van where Grandma would probably be safer? (Or how about a Miata?).

BTW I'm 51--eligible for AARP membership, but not Medicare.
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I've been to BC once. Absolutely gorgeous.

God's country if you ask me.

My all time favorite place is Jasper.

Been there as a tourist on a motor coach tour of the Canadian Rockies. Went to Jasper via the train from Camloops (sorry, if I murdered the spelling).

I know for darn sure if I was backpacking in that area, my pack would be filled to the brim and stuff hanging all over the outside, cause I would want to stay as long as possible (and warm).

I'd probably sound like a pot and pan salesman hauling all his wares in a horse drawn wagon...bing, bing, bang, bang.

The bears would certainly hear me coming from miles away!

To bring us back on track...

I like my closed-cell pad, but my back doesn't. Will look for alternatives that are light yet rugged.

like i said, my comment is not one made from experience. i have used themarests before, and they did alright. i checked my roommate's pad (the one i reported using that deflated), and it was not a thermarest. i cannot recall what brand it is, but it is a cheap inflatable pad, hence my problem with the deflation. i still think that i will side with the closed cells, just because of weight. not that i have weight concerns in my pack, but because i am lazy in anything but actually hiking and climbing, and desire to carry as little as possible

You need to experiment in YOUR region and find what works for YOU; some of the advice given here MAY be relevant to your needs and other comments are not. I would certainly use a closed cell pad(s) in any situation where a pad failure could result in serious problems, such as in cold weather camping in remote areas when quick rescue is not available.

However, the Thermarest is a proven bit of kit and work VERY well for most people in most situations as I posted, my original one is 30 yrs. old and is in my day hiking emergency pack along with a Z-rest short and a Exped Pl. Wallcreeper and Hilleberg cagoule which I forget the name of at the moment.

This WILL keep me safe in the mountains around Vancouver, BC, where temps. go well below freezing at night and it is VERY wet with deep snow. Simple, reliable, in-expensive and proven by gazillions of users in many places. I have used a Thermarest at -30*F, but, this is where the closed-cell pads really are better and I carry two large Ridgerests on the exterior of my Mystery Ranch BDSB for such excursions, have done for years, works very well.

As kutenay says, Thermarest makes a quality product. The oldest ones that Barb and I have were bought in the early 1970s (or maybe even late 1960s - hard to remember anything back that far). Never had a leak in any of my Thermarests, though people on the same trip have had (I mentioned the Denali incident in a previous post). The early ones are equivalent to the current thin 3/4 length. I got a full length thick one for use in snow camping and expeditions in the late 1970s (I think it was called and expedition model, in fact), but later got a 3/4 length thick one. When I found out the "Classic" (actually a 1990s version) had a higher R-value and was lighter and more compact, I got that one for all my expedition and snow use. Still, as I previously mentioned, I use the blue foam (ensolite) whenever I will be at low temperatures (subzero) more than a night or 2. I have used the blue foam by itself at -25 to -30, and the "classic" Thermarest at -40 (both in tents, snow caves, and bivy sacks, and the Thermarest once in the open when we were in too much hurry to put up a tent - gorgeous, calm, clear night ... well, not so much night, since the sun just dipped behind the hills for an hour or two, as it does when you get too far north in summer, but it got down to -36F according to the thermometer. Worked just fine.

Try various combinations out. Whatever works for you is just fine. Take all suggestions you run across on the web with a grain of salt (even if it comes from Old GreyBeards and ancient Canucks who have more than half a century in the wild actually using the gear).

ok, I'll post it again so you moderators have something to delete and you can feel your doing a good job - (which by the way, you are).

Sure would love to see a "graveyard" forum. I'd love to read all the posts that were deleted in this string

Does anyone use exped downmats? I've heard they are amongs the most comfortable. Obviously they are pricey, but you get what you pay for according to most people. It sounds like if you are trying to save weight, a downmat 7 is what you would be looking at.

I personally have two downmat 9 deluxe pads and they are amazing. Since they come with a waterproof stuff sack, I have no problem attaching them to the outside of my pack if I don't have space inside.

bberg,
Jim S, who posts here occasionally, has been using a Stephenson down mat for many years (Jim, correct me if I am wrong and it isn't a Stephenson). While they are warm and comfortable, they are indeed pricey.

Bill, you are right, Jim's is the Warmlite (Stephenson); he says in a post on TLB, he's had it for 20 years.