Jacket for Winter Camping

So I'm going w/ a group of friends into the Adirondacks in February. Last year it got down to -20 degrees F. I understand that 800 Fill is better than 650 Fill down given the same weight...but, as I view the many down jackets available I am having trouble figuring out which coats are warmer than others. For instance:

The Marmot Zeus Jacket is 1 lb. 1 oz. w/ 800 fill down:
http://www.backcountrygear.com/catalog/appareldetail.cfm/MA4208

Then u have the Mountain Hardware Sub Zero Jack @ 1 lbs, 11 oz w/ 650-Fill Power 85/15 Goose down:
http://www.basegear.com/mountain-hardwear-subzero-jacket-down-sale.html

The Zeus is lighter, but higher fill down...the Sub Zero is more weight (more down?) but lower quality down (does the 85/15 mean ratio of down to feathers? Thus even less warmth for the weight?) and it ~looks~ fuller and warmer.

How am I supposed to know which is warmer? How do I know one jacket doesn't just have heavy zippers as opposed to more ounces of down to keep me warm?

Without looking at both jackets it will be hard to tell. All things considered equal, the thickness of the insulation will determine which jacket is warmer as you have more insulation around you. The 800 fill down jacket will be lighter for a given thickness of insulation than the 650 down jacket. For that matter, a synthetic jacket can be equally a warm, but again will be heavier.

Any chance you can look at both in person rather than on line? Unless you can find some information on thickness of insulation you may not be able to determine which jacket is warmer.

Both Marmot and Mountain Hardwear (this is the correct spelling for the company) make good products. Alan's explanation of the warmth for weight is correct - all else being equal (shell material, zippers, size), a jacket with 800 fill will be lighter and compress smaller for a given warmth. So for the same warmth, (if they are indeed the same warmth), you would expect Marmot's 800 fill to be lighter than MH's 650 fill.

But as alan said, you can't really tell until you try the jackets out in cold conditions. If it were companies other than Marmot and Mountain Hardwear (or some other higher quality companies like Feathered Friends, Western Mountaineering, Integral Designs, and a couple others), I would add the caution that some companies "puff up" their claimed down fill ratings. I have run across several companies with Big Names (that is, they sell and advertise a lot) that their sleeping bags and jackets feel more like 650 than their claimed 800 (and in one case 900) fill.

Mountain Hardwear's "85/15" means:

650-Fill Power 85/15 Goose (Down)
Insulation

Goose Down is the most efficient natural fill material available. Lightweight, compressible, and incredibly warm, down garments and sleeping bags are the gear of choice for serious backpackers and mountaineers. Our 600- and 650-fill power downs are mixtures of Chinese and European down, while our 775-fill is entirely European down.

In other words, 85% of the down is of Chinese origin and 15% is European (and more expensive)

Incidentally, I notice that my hometown down gear maker Western Mountaineering (factory located about 12 miles from my house) is now making their down jackets in Canada. Well, at least that isn't SE or S Asia.

OK let me clean this up a bit...I appreciate the advice thus far, but here are some more details:

-I was linking to those two jackets to show my frustration in evaluating two similarly priced jackets but not really knowing which would be warmer when u only have fill power and weight of the jacket to go on.

-I was wondering if -20F is the temps I'll see during the day when loafing around camp or at night...to be honest I'm not really sure. But I know -20 is not the basement for that time of year up there. I just know last yr. u guys saw -17F last year in February near Saranac Lake in the Adirondacks (Northeast) at some point. haha I'm fine with planning for -20 during the day, it'll give me some head room just in case.

I'll possibly be sitting around a lot, not generating a lot of heat during the day around camp, no real hiking to speak of...I want to be warm. I'm not sure if the snow will be 'wet' at those temperatures and have it soak into my gear or not, that's also a concern.

I've narrowed my search to three jackets/parkas, here are my questions:

-Which would u pick?
-I read reviews of the synthetic DAS lasting many years, but down should last even longer?
-Down be a PIA to clean vs. the synthetic?

Sherpa Adventure Gear Men's Khumbuche Down Jacket
http://www.campmor.com/outdoor/gear/Product___75113

Pros:
Love the green color
cheaper than others

Cons:
Not as warm as Patagonia Down Parka (750 fill vs. 800 fill)
Perhaps not as warm as Patagonia Down Parka?
It's a jacket, not a parka, less coverage?
Don't find many reviews on it...untested?
Down sucks when wet.

# Length: 27-½”
# Weight: 22 oz.
$188 shipped

Patagonia DAS Parka
http://tinyurl.com/66mmnc

Pros:
Rave reviews
Synthetic handles wetness better

Cons:
Down Sherpa jacket or Patagonia Down Parka could be warmer?

Length 29 inches
Weight 780 g (27.5 oz)
$220 shipped

Patagonia Down Parka
http://tinyurl.com/6f5pw8

Pros:
Rave reviews
800-fill down...warmest of the three I'd assume.

Cons:
Down sucks when wet.
weighs the most.

Length: dunno, but figure it is similar to DAS Parka
Weight 868 g (30.6 oz)
$227 shipped

Hi Bster 13,

If it were my choice I would pick the warmer down and go with a breathable waterproof shell to cover it! This is just my opinion based on that fact I love down for its warmth. Wet can be a problem because down loses warmth when wet but covering it with a shell would help with moisture from the environment. The shell will do double duty, it can be used all year round.

I'd have to oversize that shell big time I'd think. I wear a Large in most things, so I'd have to grab an XL shell, right? then that big shell would be tough to use, say in the fall because it's so big, no?

You've hit upon a bit of the rub when it comes to buying gear, namely it's all a compromise. Winter specific gear usually doesn't work that well in other seasons as you need larger sizes to accomodate more layers. When you're looking at -20 F. temperatures you really need a lot of clothes, not so much when you're moving, but when you are sitting around in camp. You can spend your entire time in your bag to stay warm, but I get rather bored and restless doing that.

If you buy an xl shell for winter to layer over your insulation you may well want a second shell for other seasons.

-20 is the real deal, a whole lot colder than 0.

If it were me, given that it is the 'Dacks, I would eliminate the "Sherpa Adventure" right off the bat, and then eliminate the Pata down jacket, as well as the Marmot and Mountain Hardwear you first mentioned.

One of the reasons I would eliminate the down jackets is, what you mentioned - down looses loft when wet and loses insulating power completely, plus once wet, it takes a long time to get properly dried out and re-fluffed, even when you are in town in a nice warm house. While Wilderness Gal's advice on the shell seems to be the solution (you will need a shell in any case), if you get anything Goretex and wear the down under it while doing your hiking or other vigorous activity, you will build a lot of condensation (=soaking wet) in the down, because Gtx doesn't breathe worth anything to get the sweat out. eVent works better, but still, you are likely to find a buildup. There's another consideration that I pick up from your first post which I won't go into here (kutenay will know what I am referring to) that says down is not a good choice for your situation.

That leaves the DAS (excellent jacket, which I have used). But, the jacket I would pick for those conditions is Integral Designs Dolomiti. Having used both the DAS and the Dolomiti, the Dolomiti wins hands down. The fill is Primaloft, the closest synthetic to down currently available.

But, you say you are anticipating sitting around in -20(F?) temperatures. A jacket like you say you are looking for is only one part of a proper layering system. Whether you are warm sitting around in -20F weather will depend on what else you have on your layers. I assume you plan on having the full 3 layers - WWW (= "Wicking", "Warmth", "Wind/Water") Sitting around in those conditions requires at least a midweight wicking layer and a midweight warmth layer (which probably should be a couple layers equivalent to Polartec 200), with the added Dolomiti, as well as your wind/water layer (for which eVent, as I said, is much better than Goretex). This goes for tops AND bottoms. When you are moving, you will remove part of the layers, and then is when you want really good breathability for that Wind/Water layer (full front zipper and pit and ventral zips on the jacket help, but are no substitute for a really breathable fabric).

Hrmm...a couple more thoughts.

Neither of Patagonia Jackets are your typical fashionable North Face Bubble jackets. They are bigger and warmer....most likely I would not be wearing this jacket around town down here in CT on a regular basis. With that said, the jacket only has one real purpose, keep me warm on these winter camping trips up North.

The question of Down getting wet, losing all it's insulating properties and turning me into an popsicle may not apply here for the scenario in which I'd use the jacket. If it is raining out....this Patagonia down jacket is way too warm to use. It'd be compressed in my pack and I'd have my other layers on. If it is cold enough to be wearing the jacket, any precipitation would be in the form of snow in which I'd trust the DWR coating on the shell of the jacket to keep me dry. I won't be doing snow angels for hours on end on these trips so I'm relatively confident this down jacket would be the best for me. Add to this the info I got from Patagonia hot line:

DAS Synthetic Parka:
Body insulation 5.3oz
Arm insulation 4oz

Down Parka:
insulation is 8.8oz

This down parka will be much warmer than the synthetic as it is down and there is more of it pound for pound.

Bill S - I'd like to know what the other reason was for not picking the down that u picked up on in my first post. My first post had some sarcasm built in (heavy zippers) but I fully admit I'm a newb to winter camping. Were you referring to that fact and how you may need to be more careful will down? *shrugs* I'm here to learn from you more experienced guys, so lay it on me *thumbsup* thx.

This is the same question you posted on TLB and as you can see, the answers vary depending on who has actually used the jackets you mention. Anyone interested in other responses, can look here.
http://tinyurl.com/6mdgcm

Hopefully I'm not being too much of a pest with the cross posting Tom, but I'm under the gun to make a decision during these wonderful holiday sales. :)

Depending upon your size, the DAS parka is on sale on Patagonia's web site and it's a bargain at $72.50.

http://www.patagonia.com/web/us/product/product_focus.jsp?OPTION=PRODUCT_FOCUS_DISPLAY_HANDLER&catcode=WS_FA_US.WEB_SPECIALS.MENS&style_color=19004-984&ws=true

Your assumption that the DWR finish on the down parka will keep you dry in a snowfall is erroneous and something that you need to re-think. NEVER trust ANY item of gear in winter camping UNTIL you have TESTED it and even then, have a backup "failsafe" option.

I kinda think that Bill was gently trying to tell you this and meant no offence by his comment; I do not, either, and old crocks like us tend to be kinda blunt and opinionated....but, we actually know whereof we speak from hard experience in cold places.

Not to worry, most here are good folks and very helpful.

I have the ID Dolomiti Parka with hood that Bill mentions and I prefer this to ANY other jacket I have used for general winter camping in conditions much like yours. I also have and have had several down parkas and still have a fabulous double duvet from Egge of Switzerland, but, have not worn it in the mountains for over 20 years, Primaloft just works better in most conditions. I have two ID Rundle jackets as well and a Montbell Thermawrap UL plus a MEC UL vest, I don't bother with costly, fragile down parkas anymore.

hrmm...so u have the fragile down in the field (lose their insulating ability when wet) and fragile synthetics over time (fiber break down with use more quickly than down) ugh...

My Primaloft jackets certainly seem to last and my down jacket is 35+ yrs. old and it HAS wetted out from snowfall.

In REAL cold, below -20*F, I much prefer down, but, for MOST winter camping and "survival" situations, the PL. jackets are more viable, IMHO.

I have two Primaloft jackets, one the first generation that I have had for close to 20years, the other the Dolomiti that I have had for about 8 years (my wife's Dolomiti is about 2 years old and the latest version of Primaloft). I still use the older jacket for a lot of knocking around, plus it is the one I use as a loaner when teaching winter camping classes (and the inevitable someone shows up with inadequate gear). It has seen a lot of rough use, and still works well.

Down with proper care lasts virtualy forever. I have a -40 expedition down bag that I have had since 1960. The major problem with it at this point is that there has been a big evolution in the quality of down (it was 600 fill, the best you could get in 1960), and in the fabrics used in the inner and outer shell - hence it is pretty heavy for an expedition bag by today's standards. My current expedition bag is a Feathered Friends, again -40deg, with a microfiber outer shell and a waterproof/breathable hood liner (keep your moist breath from getting into the down), plus a much improved collar design, etc. And it is half the weight of my older bag.

I also have expedition level down parkas. Down works extremely well IF you have a lot of experience with keeping them dry in extreme conditions (not a problem below -20F, as kutenay says). But you said you are a newby. I would strongly suggest that for the 'Dacks, for at least your first 30 or 40 overnights in winter conditions, you stick with a good synthetic. And Primaloft is the best of the current synth.

Done! (finally...)

Thanks for everyone's opinions and advice...if I freeze my buns off on this trip I know who I'll point the finger at. :lol:

Yep, the shell would have to be a bit bigger of course. I haven't seen the jackets that you speak of so I'm not sure how bulky they are. I should have clarified that I wouldn't hike in down, it would be for the hanging around camp times, sweat would compromise the warmth value. I think the shell while a bit bigger would do fine for spring, fall and winter, you will still being layering somewhat at these times I would think. Hopefully while hiking at the cold temps on this trip you would still have a good bunch of layers and the shell would still fit over without being too big. I would have a good layering system for hiking, my down coat in a waterproof stuff sac ready for wear when I stopped hiking and the shell to protect from environmental moisture. This is only my opinion for me. Everyone has great suggestions that they have tried and tested, this one is mine and you will find yours!

There is no way the Zeus could be as warm as the Sub Zero IMHO.

The Zeus is thin and made to be a mid layer while the Subzero is stuffed to the max with 650 fill down.

The quilting in the Zeus goes all the way through where in the Subzero (at least in the front) there is another layer of material to add insulation.