Bivy

1:55 a.m. on July 7, 2011 (EDT)
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Hi all,

im planning to buy a bivy for some snow camping,

ive narrowed it down to 3 selections,

The North Face - Backpacking Bivy 3-Season Flare Orange, One Size -

http://trailspace.geartrade.com/item/194453

US Military Surplus Bivy Sleeping Bag Cover Gore Tex

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00276IGM4/ref=olp_product_details?ie=UTF8&me=&seller=

I could get a used 1 of these for 60 dollars, is there any1 who strongly recommends against getting a used 1,

pagetitle.img?color=4b9fb7&text=000000&a

http://www.healthyhikergear.com/product/01902BU_Chinook-Summit-Bivy-Bag-Blue

if anyone has used any of these and could tell me about their experience or could reccomend 1 product over the other it would be really helpful,

all help is appreciated,

thanks,

Josh

6:48 a.m. on July 7, 2011 (EDT)
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You make no mention of what venues you are considering.  Nevertheless I would consider a bivy as only a contingency to more substantial shelter in the snow, be it a tent, or in-snow dwelling.   The last place I would want to be in a good storm is in a bivy.

Ed

10:26 a.m. on July 7, 2011 (EDT)
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I have one of the Mil Surplus ones, and like it quite a bit for the price- I got it from an ex mil friend and paid $40. Couple important notes- like most GI gear, its gonna be heavier than many consumer products. In snow and cold DO NOT use without a ventilation/breathing tube. Condensation from your breath on the interior and consolidating snow on the exterior of the bivy can seal the membrane completely and you can suffocate.  

1:16 p.m. on July 7, 2011 (EDT)
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agree with the comments above.  i have one of the military surplus bags too.  because it's a piece of emergency gear, and i haven't had an emergency, i have only used it once or twice, inside a tent, for the sake of trying it out.  it does allow water vapor to pass through - my bag wasn't soaked after a cold night - and it adds 5-10 degrees to a bag.  not particularly light or packable, and the zip/snap side opening only runs to about mid-thigh. 

can't speak to suffocating because i didn't cover my face. 

1:46 p.m. on July 7, 2011 (EDT)
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I don't own any bivies and know very little about them, but, the thing I noticed is you said you wanted to go snow camping and the North Face one clearly states that it is a 3 season bivy. Just an observation.

1:59 p.m. on July 7, 2011 (EDT)
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I am(have been) on the search for "the best bivy" for primarily winter. I only plan on sleeping in it so the "room" aspect is something that is a non-issue for me.

I am sticking with an event model.

So far I have narrowed it down to 3.

The ID(Integral Designs) Wedge and Uni.

Wedge- I think this will be awesome in wind(not to mention provide enough room for gear as well. I just do not like the way the entrance opens(from top down.)

http://www.integraldesigns.com/product_detail.cfm?id=859

 Uni- I have heard really good things in regards to this bivy plus I like the long zipper for easier entry.

http://www.integraldesigns.com/product_detail.cfm?id=776

 

Big Agnes

...and the BA(Big Agnes) 3 wire just because I own a tent from them and have had good experiences with the company.

http://www.bigagnes.com/Products/Detail/Tent/ThreeWireBivySack

I have also eyed up ID's Observer which is a tactical model. Kinda heavy at 4 3/4lbs.

http://www.integraltactical.com/product_detail.cfm?id=775

2:21 p.m. on July 7, 2011 (EDT)
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Nearly four pounds for a bivy? Yeepers! You could go with a serious one man tent for about the same weight. The Hille Akto weighs less, and you would have room to comfortably wind out the storm.

The ventilation port on the Uni is pretty nice.

2:27 p.m. on July 7, 2011 (EDT)
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gonzan- You have no idea how many times I have almost pulled the trigger on buying another Akto. I loved that tent. It was just too stuffy in humidity.

Awhile back I was skimming through the Hille catalog(I think I am on their mailing list, they keep sending me stuff) and noticed that they have a mesh inner available for the Akto.

I am considering buying another one with that inner, along with a beefier .433 pole for heavy, wet, snow, and maybe putting the lil Spur on the back burner or maybe even selling it in the not too distant future(better for someone to get use out of it.)

When I buy new gear I drive myself nuts.

2:34 p.m. on July 7, 2011 (EDT)
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Of your 3 choices I would pick the Chinook for your useage.

I would also consider the Big Agnes though wish the eVent material curved down a little further on the top of the bag.

2:36 p.m. on July 7, 2011 (EDT)
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Callahan- from my understanding the 3 wire use to utilize more event fabric but if I remember right they had to cut back because of the whole "fire restistant" thing or something like that.

7:19 p.m. on July 7, 2011 (EDT)
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I would further your search here. Ya may get lucky and snag something really decent on the cheap.

http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313&_nkw=bivy&_sacat=See-All-Categories

 

10:10 p.m. on July 7, 2011 (EDT)
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Rick-Pittsburgh said:

..they had to cut back because of the whole "fire restistant" thing or something like that.

Fire retardant bivi!?  Who smokes or cooks in a bivy?  Stupid law!  No wonder we are going to hell as a society...

Ed

10:40 p.m. on July 7, 2011 (EDT)
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whomeworry said:

Fire retardant bivi!?  Who smokes or cooks in a bivy?  Stupid law!  No wonder we are going to hell as a society...

Ed

 Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. Then again I am sure that someone out there has with the levels of intelligence that I have seen demonstrated by people throughout the years.

I can't remember exactly how it went, but from what I remember reading stricter regulations were passed awhile back and it changed the design process of what materials could be utilized and how much could be used in the manufacturing process to be able to pass these regulations for these shelters to be able to be sold commercially on the market. I think it has something to do with the tag that is in the tents that refers to fire warnings, etc.

Don't quote me on that because it has been awhile since I first became aware of this but that is what I can remember. I am not sure but it may be a US only thing.

If anyone out there has any more info please feel free to help me out on this one. I may be wrong on this one. Like I said I said its been awhile.

I think it has something to do with this jibberish

http://ehis.fullerton.edu/SafetyGuidelines/Tents.aspx

Here is another link

http://www.sewwhatinc.com/fr_in_US.php

I do know that the 3 wire used more event material a few years back.

9:29 a.m. on July 8, 2011 (EDT)
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The Akto is one Hilleberg tent that I do not like and would never consider for use in wilderness or snow and it is best reserved for bicycle camping and other such uses, IMHO. It is NOT going to hold up under heavy and especially wet snow, is too "tricky" to erect in wind and the dark and, especially, if you are tired, hypothermic, or injured. I do not consider it a real "survival" or "wilderness" shelter.

For those who are only camping in forested areas, the ID Unishelter plus a Siltarp II or, my preference, III, is a fine rig and will deal with any weather you encounter. I carried one of these for 12-13 years in my "emerg." pack for hunting and trekking alone here in BC and trust it absolutely.

For a shelter that WILL withstand the worst and is easy to erect in ANY conditions, the ID Observer is simply beyond anything else I have ever seen and I carry mine, the "Mega Sola" model, anytime I am unsure as to what I will encounter. It weighs more, granted, but, that is worth carrying for me and if you have ever experienced a BC alpine storm, you would see why I do so.

The Wedge is excellent with it's vestibule, for winter-snow camping and just takes a little practice to erect and "live in". I originally suggested a "Mega Sola" in the eVent fabric to Evan Jones, former owner of ID and head designer some years ago. He replied, "I don't want to go there" and, roughly six months later, introduced this "Wedge" in eVent.

I do not like it as well as I would a "Mega Sola" in eVent, or, especially, an Observer, which, if available in "Blaze Orange" and a dull "earth" colour or camo eVent, would be the best possible serious bivy shelter one could use in really harsh conditions. However, the gear makers do not always listen as, IMO, they ought to and we must make do with what is available.

I would go with the eVent Unishelter for most uses and buy a Hille. Soulo for my solo winter tent or a Jannu if my lady was coming with me.

9:34 a.m. on July 8, 2011 (EDT)
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I ended up buying the ID Micro bivy last year. 18.5 oz, event top and 70 denier nylon base. I like it just fine and it's plenty big for my Western Mountaineering -25 degree Puma bag.

9:39 a.m. on July 8, 2011 (EDT)
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Rick - regarding that ID Uni. I used to think that a zipper was important too fora bivy sack, but I got over it. The Uni weighs 31 oz. Ouch! Not worth the weight, IMHO.

9:43 a.m. on July 8, 2011 (EDT)
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philip- yeah I have no idea what I am gonna do. Granted the Observer is heavy but I like it... alot. At the same time I like the Wedge as well(bangs head on table as keyboard goes up in smoke.)

As I previously said whatever I get will primarily be my winter go-to shelter. I like the low stance of the Wedge(should be bomber in wind) as well as the extra space inside.

At these dimensions(Front Width:   45” (112cm) Rear Width:   31” (77cm))the Wedge is just a bit bigger in the shoulder area than my Copper Spur 1 which would make me think I shouldn't have a problem jamming my gear in there with me. 

I am just having an issue with the whole zipper opens from the top down thing. If it wasn't for that it may very well have been in my man cave already.

***Kinda funny though if you would add 2 wheels to the Wedge and a set of handlebars it kinda resembles a Vespa***

Vespa-


vespa.jpg

 

ID Wedge-


Hmmmm.integral-designs-event-wedge-bivy-lg1-fr


 

10:13 a.m. on July 8, 2011 (EDT)
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Where are you camping? The observer seems a bit extreme and heavy and must have terrible internal condensation. Breathable fabrics just aren't as breathable as an open door. Just saying. What about a Golite Shangrila-1 or a betamid with floors?

10:21 a.m. on July 8, 2011 (EDT)
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Everywhere and anywhere. I have family in Colorado(bc snowboarding) I also have plans to do some travelling to places like Alaska etc. I was there a few times when I was younger but it has been awhile(years.)

10:33 a.m. on July 8, 2011 (EDT)
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The tipi-style shelters cannot be erected if you are injured and are  a REAL PITA to setup on hard frozen ground or ice, this based on using a couple of them from 1987 to 2006. The condensation is FAR worse in one of these than in any ID bivy I have used, or, even my old Early Winters bivies made of "Gen. 1" Gore-Tex, which I bought in '77-78 and used extensively for many years.

The Onserver/Mega Sola, is actually quite "dry" in use and the "Wedge" will be even better, due to the eVent fabric. BC is the "wettest" region in North America, by actual measurement and has very high winds, extremely heavy snowfall and very rugged terrain. I have yet to experience a problem using an ID bivy, of which I have three, plus the M-S and two MK tents, in any weather or conditions we have here. In  fact, I consider these the finest shelters available with only Hilleberg tents as their equal.

The zipper on the Unishelter is a vital component of an emergency system and I would not, again, ever use a bivy without one. Try getting into a bivy-bag-pad combo with a broken ankle which you have strapped and which hurts like hell, when it is raining and just above freezing and then tell me that the zipper is too heavy and the Uni. more than needed.

For an emergency system, and that is what bivies are designed for, you MUST prepare for the WORST that can happen to you and carry gear that WILL work in such conditions and the Unishelter and Observer/Mega Sola are that type/quality of gear. A few more pounds in your pack won't hurt you, but, getting soaked and then hypothermic and unable to quickly deploy and get into your emerg. "cocoon" can quickly kill you....as, I have seen more than once.

11:34 a.m. on July 8, 2011 (EDT)
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You mention that a tee pee shelter would be very hard to set up if you were injured.  Well, I guess so.  If solo.  With someone else, not so much.  As far as condensation is concerned, a bivy will it all cases cause more issues than a tee pee with respect to managing the condensation that forms.  With a tee pee, the condensation will roll down the walls and into the ground.  Not to mention the overal volume of space - one is more than likely not going to bang into a wet wall.  With a WP bivy, there is no room for the hot air between you and the bivy to escape.  If the dew point is exceeded, this air will condense on your sleeping bag, soaking it.

The Observer is hugely heavy for what it is and there are other, much lighter just as high performing 'emergency' shelters that will be just as easy to set up.

 

With respect to the Wedge - you (Rick) will need the additional vestibule addition or will get wet getting in and out of it in the rain. 

Rick, have you considered the Nemo Equipment Moto?  If you are set on a bivy (although I would, as before, recommend an MLD Solo or Duo Mid with the bug net inner tent - bomber, modular for 1.5lbs). Similar weight but easier to get into without bringing rain with you.  No poles (ari beams) and 37" of height - over a foot taller than the Wedge and Observer.

http://www.nemoequipment.com/nemo2011-moto1p-tent

 

1:35 p.m. on July 8, 2011 (EDT)
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Rick - have you considered buying a snow cat instead of that Vespa. You would then be prepared for any emergency, and you could even haul a barbacue around. Just kidding.

For traveling in Alaska, you might take a look at what Andrew Skurka used for his gear system. I'm pretty sure it was a MLD Solomid, right CWF? My Duomid weighs 14 oz and is great if you don't use it above treeline in the winter. It's true, pitching a pyramid is a pain if you have to wait for deadmen to sinter, but if you are doing BC skiing, you have a lot of gear you can use as tent stakes: 2 ski's, 2 poles, 1 ice axe. 1 avalanche probe, without having to wait for a deadman to freeze.

The advantages of a pyramid in high wind are legend, high walls will shed snow, and there is plenty of room inside to cook and store gear. That wedge looks like it will be buried in a good storm.

2:12 p.m. on July 8, 2011 (EDT)
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Yes Phil - SoloMid for Andrew, although I think he used a Duo on a previous Alaskan trip.

My vote would be for the DuoMid like you have.  More room for gear.  I find my SoloMid a bit tighter in that regard.

3:21 p.m. on July 8, 2011 (EDT)
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Oh the mid is not out of the equasion. I did consided the Nemo but there is something about the AR system that just doesn't bode well with me. I am not sure what it is but I just don't really care for the whole air beam thing.

 Maybe I will just take out another mortgage on the house and buy all of them.... Along with a Vespa(grabs aspirin for headache from banging head and fire extinguisher to put out the keyboard that is officially engulfed in flames. :)

3:30 p.m. on July 8, 2011 (EDT)
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I have never had the condensation issues with the bivies I have used since my first in 1969 and I  wonder why others here have these and if they have actually used the items they suggest in the conditions mentioned. I have spent months living alone at 5000 ft. on the BC-Yukon border, was first in the NWT in April, 1966 and have never had any shelter buried in snow in my 47 years of backpack camping. So, I gotta disagree on the merits of tipis and bivies and on the weight issue. as well.

Now, I should make it clear, here, that I am not an urban recreationist and I always suggest gear that I KNOW will work in the worst conditions one will encounter. I do not count on rescue and I make my choices/suggestions, based on what will keep me alive for an extended period in the worst conditions I will encounter.

Just, after I posted my last comment on this, my phone rang and it was a geologist-exploration company owner offering me a multiple month job in the Yukon; this would entail some extensive backpack camping and fly-ins in some of North America's most remote and coldest wilderness. My wife is telling me that I should take the position, as I have been bored silly and cooped up here due to her medical issues for a couple of years and I have had to refuse some very nice job offers during that time.

My choice, in the emerg. pack that goes with me in these situations and on every simple training hike I take, will be a Mega Sola, Silwing and ID North Twin bag, with GG Torsolite pads and maybe a T-Rest Neoair. This is light enough to carry all day and WILL cope with severe weather as I have found over many stints in the bush. I am more concerned with what I know will work than just weight as I have no desire to become a statistic. Each to his own and there are a number of excellent choices.

6:58 p.m. on July 8, 2011 (EDT)
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Dewey - the 'Mids' that Phil and I mention have been used for 5 month, 4500 mile plus expeditions through Alaska without failure.

10:11 p.m. on July 8, 2011 (EDT)
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Rick-Pittsburgh said:

Callahan- from my understanding the 3 wire use to utilize more event fabric but if I remember right they had to cut back because of the whole "fire restistant" thing or something like that.

 No comprende omego

11:23 p.m. on July 8, 2011 (EDT)
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CWF said:

Dewey - the 'Mids' that Phil and I mention have been used for 5 month, 4500 mile plus expeditions through Alaska without failure.

 Mine lasted many years, still have it and I used my original tipi-style tent, a Fjallraven Expedition model for years in conditions to -40 and a friend bought it and lived in it, as I had, for weeks on end in the winters and spring in the BC mountains. I have had three Kifaru tipis and currently have an 8-man with the accessories to make a very comfortable base camp in any conditions found in BC or anywhere else in northern and western Canada...or, Alaska, from what i saw when there.

However, there are a couple of points that I disagree with concerning the tipi-bivy comparison and these are first, that the water drops from condensation do NOT slide down the walls, they obey gravity and drop on your head and gear. The condensation is FAR worse in these tipis, whether made of  silnylon or coated material than in a properly rigged GT or, especially eVent bivy and this has been my experience in using these since the early 1970s, as I posted.

So, I am a bit curious as I do not quite understand the comments you and Phil make here and ask, have YOU been on any expeditions in Alaska, or, have you done a lot of wilderness winter camping or any really remote solo camping where you depended on easy erection of your shelter if you were injured?  I  am always interested in the experience-based opinions of others, however, my experience differs from your opinions to a marked degree and I just wonder why that is.

Have you actually used the gear items you suggest in winter conditions at altitude and have you ever had any gear failures due to severe weather?  I have just had such excellent results from the items I recommend here that I find some of the comments a bit hard to equate with my results and wonder why that is happening. I do not post opinions based on anything other than personal experience, so, that is what I base my recommendations on.

12:28 a.m. on July 9, 2011 (EDT)
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Kutenay, 

First, I don't trek solo and no I haven't been injured on the trail.  If I was hurt, hopefully my hiking partners could erect a shelter for me.  The reason that you have not as much condensation in your bivvies is a.) you are using a high loft winter bag that will absorb a lot of it and are likely using a vapor barrier at the temps that you mention b.) you use your WP bivy under a tarp, which provides the first line of defence against the dew point issue that I mention above.  Your tarp will take most of the brunt of the condensation.  This is fact. I encourage you to use your waterproof bivy without the tarp.  I think your results may differ. 

My experience is that water beads and moves across silnylon easily and that condensation will roll down the sides of a tee pee.  At the temps you mention, most of that will be frost anyway and unless you purposely bang against the walls (much harder in a tee pee than a bivy), you remain dry.

Your mention of using such a shelter above altitude made me chuckle.  The OP did not mention that was a requirement and second, a bivy would be my last choice in such conditions and especially in the winter.  In those conditions, give me a Hilleberg Jannu or Soulo but certainly not a 24" tall hybrid bivy shelter that I cannot sit up in to cook, change clothes, or wait out a storm.... and one that would provide questionable snow load at best. 

Of course, this is all for naught.  The Sola and Mega Sola are dead ducks and not produced any longer.

We don't have to agree - I own both the Event Unishelter, eVent overbag, and Big Agnes Three Wire (first generation).  They are great.  But given the advances in design and methodology over the past few years, they sit in my closet.  There simply, at least for me, isn't any benefit to them over other alternatives.

The reason Mid's were brought up is because they are a more than viable alternative to hooped bivvies by providing more protection, more room, and the same overall performance for less weight (and sometimes less cost).

1:24 a.m. on July 9, 2011 (EDT)
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Kutenay-...interesting

1:48 a.m. on July 9, 2011 (EDT)
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No, I have often used my bivies without a tarp and with total success, an example would be solo hiking across the "Earl Grey Pass" trail in various summers and in some fairly severe rain storms. This, entails camping above timberline and in some nasty weather, even in summer.

 I seldom use one of my winter bags in such conditions and my usual choice is an ID Pl. overbag or the WM or FF light down bags I had. I prefer a tarp, but, pitch it high so I can stand under it and this has no real effect on the bivy fabric.

I would stress here, that I am posting on the advantages of bivies in winter camping, not on winter shelters in general, as this was the original query. This, is why I have not suggested the ID or Hilleberg tents appropriate for winter camping and I have two of each, but, for short trips, just go with the bivy-tarp.

I also have found that NO tipi will come close to handling the snow load that a Mega Sola will and my experiences in northwestern BC and the Kootenays, were in some of the highest snowfall regions in North America, so, given this, I think that my choices have some merit. I am not an urban office worker, but, I do and have spent a lot of time camping and living in deep snow and above timberline.

I might point out, that Andrew Skurka, a very accomplished guy, stated that his MLD shelter was a "three season" one and only with caution would he consider it a "four season" type. So, I think that he may be as posted on his gear lists, trying to warn people to be careful in attempting to emulate him and not trying to recommend his choices as the best for every hiker.

My winter pack, exclusive of snowshoes and poles, will weigh about 35 lbs. and that has kept me warm, dry, safe and comfotable on my four day treks for decades. This, has worked so well and my ID gear has lasted so long, that I feel comfortable with recommending it to anyone interested in winter camping in severe conditions.

I imagine that you have used your MLD shelters in winter treks and this is why you now prefer them, but, I have never seen a pyramid that will handle snow like the Mega Sola, does and so I will struggle on and hope for another few decades of wilderness fun, the McKenzie Mountains in the NWT interest me and the job I mentioned above will enable me to spend several weeks alone there, something I am very eager to do.

Anyway, I have made my points and hope they will be useful to the OP, I will leave it at that.

 

1:53 a.m. on July 9, 2011 (EDT)
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Rick-Pittsburgh said:

Kutenay-...interesting

 Not really, it is from the area where my family were among the founding pioneers and I grew up, on the edge of wilderness that is  densely populated with Grizzlies and is beautiful to a degree that all lovers of nature should experience once in their lives.

7:41 a.m. on July 9, 2011 (EDT)
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Black Diamond FirstLight Tent.

Freestanding. OK breathability. High angle walls.

2 lbs 11 oz. I've used mine in winter for going on 4 years in the White Mountains. Very good above treeline. Pitches very quickly.

Made out of Epic - precursor to Event.

Just a suggestion.

11:18 a.m. on July 9, 2011 (EDT)
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Rick-Pittsburgh said:

Kutenay-...interesting

 Not really, it is from the area where my family were among the founding pioneers and I grew up, on the edge of wilderness that is  densely populated with Grizzlies and is beautiful to a degree that all lovers of nature should experience once in their lives.

 

Hmmmmmmm... My family use to go to the nat. park up in that area.

11:33 a.m. on July 9, 2011 (EDT)
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Since the (really neat) Wedge bivy has been mentioned a couple of times and Rick really, really wants one (ya know you do), here is a link to a couple of pictures from a member @ Trailspace (VigilGuy).  Scroll down about 1/2 way:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=47951&startat=20

1:17 p.m. on July 9, 2011 (EDT)
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Another perspective on bivy fabrics which correspond to my personal findings:

http://40yearsofwalking.wordpress.com/2011/07/04/the-bivy-condensation-conundrum/

2:12 p.m. on July 9, 2011 (EDT)
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CWF said:

Since the (really neat) Wedge bivy has been mentioned a couple of times and Rick really, really wants one (ya know you do), here is a link to a couple of pictures from a member @ Trailspace (VigilGuy).  Scroll down about 1/2 way:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=47951&startat=20

 Vigilguy and I are friends and have been since he called me one evening to discuss a purchase of a particular jacket I was considering and then began calling me to ask my advice/opinon on gear for mountain trips. He is a very fine gentleman, who bases his opinions on actual use of the gear he recommends and is among the top three gear dealers I have ever done business with since I began backpack camping in the spring of 1964. I cannot recommend him too highly and he handles the finest gear and knows whereof he speaks.

That particular Wedge bivy, was among a group of ID tents that was sold by another gentleman, in the southern USA, who is an avid backpacker and mountain hunter. He also has spent considerable time asking my advice concerning gear for mountain sheep and goat hunts in the NWT, Yukon and Alaska. He decided to stick with his ID eVent Unishelter as an "emerg". daypack shelter and his Hille. tents, all of which he purchased on my suggestion.

He is a professional with a high income and likes to try new gear and is very generous in selling his "tested" items and he had an ID MKIII, MKI-XL and MKI-Lite plus the Wedge. I bought the MKI-Lite, for my goat hunt this Sept. and would have bought his MK-III as well, except it was yellow and I have a yellow MKI-XL and prefer earth-tone tentage for most uses. I really have no need for the Wedge, as I have the Mega Sola, a Unishelter, an eVent South Col and an eVent Bugaboo, so, called Vigilguy and told him about this deal.

He bought it and his feedback to me was very positive, but, for EMERGENCY SOLO use, I still prefer the easy setup of the Mega Sola/Observer shelters over the Wedge. It obviously depends on where you will be, but, much of my commentary here is directed at Rick's need for one shelter that WILL handle it all, in Alaska, as well as the Lower Fortyeight.

I hope all of this helps some here who are interested in safely doing some winter camps in areas of major snowfall and cold and I will say that this ahs always been the most emotionally rewarding camping I have done and I hope to do a lot more of it.

August 1, 2014
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