Uuuhhh Off-topic?

Well since Bill didn't agree with the "Made in the USA" post I guess they closed it for comments, I guess it was to "political". Uuhh, isn't this why we have an "off-topic" forum? You should name the forum, "Off-topic: but we will censor and tell you what should be discussed". There are places to discuss gear, techniques, etc, and they have their specific forums for those subjects. Off-topic is for such things as the "Made in the USA" post. It has everything to do with the outdoors and is a very important topic. Censorship Censorship Censorship. Bad form trailspace, bad form.

It is very simple. American corporations are over-taxed. We are one of the few, if not the only, major country in the world to double tax our corporations for their earnings in other countries, not to mention the high % in the first place. So it makes perfect sense to move overseas, both in manufacturering and headquarters. Americans are overtaxed and so are American corporations, the latter being the more extreme of the two (if you don't count the >250,000 bracket, which is now around 40%). The government of the U.S. makes corporations here pay ridiculous overhead. Occam's razor

The thread was moved to Off-Topic since it was now an off-topic (i.e. non-backcountry) subject, not because anyone did or did not agree with particular posts. Bill simply moved it, as we wanted, to put it in the correct spot.

It happened to get locked in the move to the new forum, so let's not jump to conclusions. It is now unlocked and will stay unlocked as long as everyone remains civil and does not beat a dead horse on this issue.

Trailspace has moderated forums to keep the tone civil and family-friendly, but we do not censor and never ever remove or edit a post based on personal opinion. Thank you.

I had not visited for awhile. So when I came back and saw the same reasons I left for it was annoying.

Does anyone know of a directory that lists American gear/clothing makers, both large and small? Same with European companies.

I would think there would be a directory available.

As far as censorship or pile on's, I've not ever seen that here on Trailspace. Trailspace is a private enterprise, and as such has every right to control and edit content to keep it in line with the purpose of the forum. Don't they?

Now that we are in the Off Topic forum, rather than the Backcountry forum ...

As it happens, MTB, I think you are correct in saying that corporations doing business in America are overtaxed, and that the earnings of corporations are doubly taxed, unlike most other countries. Corporations pay tax on their earnings, which reduces the amount available for distribution to the owners (aka stockholders) as dividends, who in turn pay income tax on those dividends. So money taxed once to the corporation is taxed a second time to the owner. This hits me personally through my 401k and pension fund. I suspect that the majority of Americans do not realize that they are stockholders through their pension funds, if not directly.

trouthunter said:

Does anyone know of a directory that lists American gear/clothing makers, both large and small? Same with European companies.

I would think there would be a directory available.

As far as censorship or pile on's, I've not ever seen that here on Trailspace. Trailspace is a private enterprise, and as such has every right to control and edit content to keep it in line with the purpose of the forum. Don't they?

Trout, I don't know of such a directory, though it could be useful. Trailspace's list of outdoor gear brands is here: http://www.trailspace.com/gear/brands/

Perhaps we could make it searchable in the future, so you could find companies by country, state, etc. However, that could get a little complex depending on whether you were searching for American-based companies, companies with a US office or distributor (but are actually European, for example), and that doesn't even get into where a piece of gear is made and/or assembled, etc... Then you'd have to keep it up to date, and with companies getting bought and merged and distributors coming and going it would hard to keep current.

Despite everything I just said, I think it's a good idea, I'm just thinking about all the complexities of what people really want to know about their gear, versus what a company's locale really tells them. And then there are instances where most of a company's stuff is made locally, but then some pieces are made abroad (for example Arc'teryx in Canada has started making some, but not all, of its outerwear in China).

As for the censorship mention, I hope our community members don't think we do that. You're right that as a private enterprise we have the right to control the site's content and focus. Beyond the obvious spam, it's very rare for us to have to edit or delete a post--that's a testament to how civil our community members keep the conversations--and if it does happen, it usually comes down to a personal attack or something else obviously inappropriate, never because someone just doesn't agree with someone's opinion.

Taxes...argh... start with a dollar at the top of the pipeline. We buy something, you pay sales tax, the corp pays tax on that dollar they earned they then use it to buy raw material to make the product, pay tax when they buy the raw, then sell to us the finished product and pay tax on the profits, they use a portion to pay us which gets taxed.

Lets say you buy a car, here in VA we pay a sales tax then every year we pay personal property tax based on the book value of the car, every year we also pay decal taxes and inspection taxes.

How long can a dollar survive in this cycle?

Alicia, thanks for reminding me of the list of gear brands here on Trailspace. Yeah, a searchable data base of companies and gear could get complicated.

My experience (in the UK) has been that buying locally manufactured gear does not always result in the best quality (Rab, TerraNova). I think quality control has a lot to do with it but integrating the designers with the floor probably matters as well.

I have noticed that Arcteryx gear is well made in China but, in my personal experience, the design/construction is not quite as good as Vancouver, though that may have to do with the rate of growth since the company was sold. Patagonia made in China is slightly higher quality than Arcteryx and I think it shows that they have a better (vertical) integration. I only have one 'made in USA' piece of gear, actually only 'assembled', and that is a Patagonia baselayer, which is very nice.

I don't think the availability of 'made in USA' is simply a consequence of overtaxing US corporations (the link on Wiki from 'corporate tax' will take you to 'corporate welfare'). I think the success of 'made in China' gear has a lot to do with the development of manufacturing in East Asia and how the respective governments influenced the control of investment (including foreign direct investment, capital fllight and so on), regulation of external costs (including environmental costs, control of labour), and "selection of winners". In other words, state-led capitalist development.

I also think the way that the US government has allowed financial interests to overrule investment in local infrastructure and manufacturing, concentrate development in the military sector, and discipline workers with the threat of relocation, has a lot to answer for.

Remember that wages in the US have gone down since the seventies, walmart has become a successful warehouse for chinese manufacturing, the dollar has functioned as the global reserve currency (oil and trade etc), Asia is now supporting the US with loans and artificial cheap pricing, and that bubbles are created to maintain an economy where much of the wealth is a promise to pay in the future based on inflated asset prices and service based earnings.

But it cannot last. Imports will become expensive, protectionism is likely and if the dollars that Asia/Russia is holding don't seem as attractive, then times will change and it will be easier to buy quality goods made locally and so on. Of course that is a good scenario ;-)

I think that consumer opinions will change, leading on from the 'green' awareness to a 'use-value' awareness and that it will become more popular for the average consumer to buy locally manufactured goods which do not lose their value as quick as the advertising media would wish us to feel. But I think it will require a disappointment with the way things are first and that will be something that people find forced upon them.

Don't forget that when you kick the bucket you also will get taxed for that. Yes, I agree that the US has become the land of the taxed and is therefore very unfriendly to businesses.

And now, to contradict myself --

My spouse of more than 4 decades (who is still just 21 years old) has distant cousins in Sweden. Their family owned a major Swedish publishing house for several generations (publisher to the King and all that). In the 1950s, Sweden began to increase taxes on "the rich" to cover the expenses of their extensive social programs, which are much admired and often cited by certain groups in the US who promote similar programs here, a worthy motive to care for the needy and less capable among us. By the 1970s, the top marginal tax rate had moved above 100%. Yes, you read that right, the tax rate, as in the US, increased for every increase category in income, both for personal and corporate income, but with the top rates exceeding 1 kroner for every kroner increase in income. I forget what the top rate was, but seem to remember it getting up to the range of 120 or 125 percent. Or to put it more baldly, successful Swedish companies and citizens paid an extra fee for having their income increase. The result for Barb's cousins was that they shut the company down and sold their personal houses. One branch of the family moved into a historical house in Old Stockholm and thus qualified to receive a stipend as caretakers of the historical property. In other words, they were driven from their business, employing a large number of Swedes, and became wards of the State.

A number of prominent Swedes moved out of Sweden during the 1970s and 1980s because of the taxes, the famous film director, Ingmar Bergman, among them.

So the US is not the most highly taxed country in the world (yet). Sweden has since cut the tax rates on the highest income levels, but still exceeds the US tax rates.