I will soon need a long break from work

5:47 p.m. on October 12, 2013 (EDT)
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I am planning now to stay here in SW Utah till around late Nov/early Dec, then pedaling down to the Grand Canyon to stay for the rest of the winter backpacking after I save about $1200 more. I will do standby permits and backpack into the back country where I have not been in 10 years. My last trip in the GC was in January 2003.

I have collected all new winter camping gear all summer and now know that I want to do something different this winter than work and live indoors. I will come back here in April to work another summer next year.


The North Rim view of the Grand Canyon

Along the way south I may stop at the Paria/Buckskin Gulch area, and maybe see Coyote Buttes/the Wave as I go.


The Wave near the AZ/UT border


Buckskin Gulch also in the AZ/UT border country

7:17 p.m. on October 12, 2013 (EDT)
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Sounds great. I would love to do some trips in the GC and Zion, but I just can't carry all that extra water.

12:13 a.m. on October 13, 2013 (EDT)
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Extra water? There is plenty of water sites in Zion and the Grand Canyon. Grand Canyon has hundreds of springs and so does Zion.

12:33 a.m. on October 13, 2013 (EDT)
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Hmmm... I was under the impression those areas are pretty dry. Will have to do some more research on backpacking in those places. Thanks.

12:44 p.m. on October 13, 2013 (EDT)
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Maybe you can help George understand all of the great backpacking in the 4 Corners that has water if you know where to look.

5:46 p.m. on October 13, 2013 (EDT)
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I hiked the Grand Canyon for 20 years from 1983-03 and water is very adundant in the inner canyon. Zion has water in its main canyon and at Emerald Pools, Echo Canyon/Weeping Rock and in the East Fork of the Virgin River.


This is a watershed map of the Grand Canyon area, as you can see there are many creeks,rivers and stream flowing into the canyon. George, click on the above map for a larger image.

ppine I actually live on the other side of Utah from the so called Four Corners which is Utah,Arizona, New Mexico and Colorado. The states that meet over here are Utah, Arizona,California and Nevada, but not like they do on the SE side of Utah.

9:58 p.m. on October 13, 2013 (EDT)
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@ppine: Thanks for the look-out.

@Gary: Appreciate the info. I'll do some checking on the areas you mentioned.

7:02 a.m. on October 14, 2013 (EDT)
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George: if you get to the Zion area in the next year look me up I live close by and would love to hike with you. I live 20 miles NE of the park off route 89 in Orderville and work at the Thunderbird Lodge Best Western at the junction of Route 9 and US 89.

10:09 a.m. on October 14, 2013 (EDT)
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Gary...when I was up there a couple weeks back I should have looked you up.

12:22 p.m. on October 14, 2013 (EDT)
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You can count on it, Gary. And I very much appreciate your offer.

6:23 p.m. on October 14, 2013 (EDT)
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Giftogab, Yeah I offered you too when you said you were coming to hike Zion. I live NE of the park along Highway 89 just north of Orderville.


Zion Canyon is left, Orderville is on the right north of Mt Carmel just below the word LONG for Long Valley. I am about 20 miles from the park. Parunuweap Canyon can be seen swinging between Mt Carmel Jct and Zion below the words White Cliffs near the bottom center. Its the East Fork of the Virgin River and is as nice as the Zion canyon but 10% of the people. Also called the Little Brother of Zion Canyon, has narrow side canyons and over 1000 foot cliffs on either side. The Barracks lower center is the narrowest section.

7:23 p.m. on October 14, 2013 (EDT)
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I was to go twice and we were only able to go once due to weather and it was such a fast day trip.

That area looks WONDERFUL

10:35 p.m. on October 14, 2013 (EDT)
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Okay... I found the areas you mentioned in Zion and did a little research as to what backpacking trails go through those areas. From looking at the Zion website, reading trail descriptions, and looking at this map, what do you think of the East Rim Trail as a choice for a late-spring trip, say either a 3-2 or 4-3 trip (days-nights)? I also see Parunuweap Canyon, but don't see any trails on the Topo.

Always wanted to go to the top of Angel's Landing in Zion, as well.

If I do get out to Zion, it won't be until next Spring. Nothing is set in stone, yet, though. If I do get out there, I will definitely check in with you, assuming you're back by then.

11:18 p.m. on October 14, 2013 (EDT)
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The East rim is very nice going out to Observation Point. One of my favorite trails! Its higher than Angels Landing and has more views of the lower canyon because of that fact. I have never hiked the East Rim as more than a day hike.

The Parunuweap has many trails but its mostly a find your own way canyon, there is a main road that runs thru the canyon from US 89 all the way into the Barracks area, then one follows the Virgin River itself. The trails in the Parunuweap are old cattle trails and jeep trails. Many people go down it on the 4x4 ATV's and horseback.

I may not leave here and just do the Parunuweap myself all winter as there are many side canyons and places to explore. I even know of a seep cave I may stay in while exploring.

That's an interesting site, the Acme Mapper 2.0. I saved it in my favorites for later investigation.

11:40 p.m. on October 14, 2013 (EDT)
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Thanks, Gary. Appreciate the additional info. And, yes, that map site is very handy and is where I go to familiarize myself with an area that interests me. Once I decide on my destination, I then order a 24k topo from mytopo.com

So next time you want to show someone the location of a particular place, use that map site to find the location, place that location in the center of the screen, under the X-hair, mark it (click Mark), generate a link (click Link to this Page), then copy the link from the white, address bar at the top of the browser.

10:11 a.m. on October 15, 2013 (EDT)
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Thanks George, I have used Mapcard.com for years and have to pay $29.95 a year for it, but this Mapper is free? I looked it up online and saw there is also a Acme Mapper 3.0

So whats your background? Me, I suppose you read my profile, but anyway I am going on 58, I started adventure travel in 1977 when I hitchhiked 8000 miles by thumb from June-Sept and went around the USA from AR-NY-DC-CO-MT-WA-CA and back to AR with many places/states in between. Then back home in Arkansas I worked for a month and at a idea planted by my brother I went to Seattle then Alaska in Oct 77  and worked the winter in Anchorage till the following June then hitchhiked to Denali NP and hiked all summer with a side day trip by thumb to Fairbanks and back in a single day. Then I returned to Anchorage and worked a second winter and then went back to Denali for another summers hikes.

I returned to Anchorage and worked as a chef in a huge hotel (The Capt Cook) I was laid off just before Xmas and decided not to stay any longer and went back to AR for the holiday then hitchhiked and backpacked all around the western US for the next two years. I had saved $4000 in Alaska and after 2 years on the road hitchhiking discovered I could live on just what I needed for food money each month.

In 1982 I went to work in Jackson Hole WY and made enough to travel on in 3 months from Memorial Day to Labor Day and decided to do a bicycle tour and rode back to AR, then the following spring went back to JH and after another summer I biked to NY-AR and began what has become my life on the road and trail.

I have been bike touring by bicycle for 31 years now, I have never driven a car and the only motor vehicle I have ever had was a 49 cc Moped when I was 16 in 1972. I have taken Greyhound and hitched a ride with friends but primarily bicycle tour. I rode up here from Tucson AZ last spring in early April and biked 2500 miles last fall from Sept 9 to Dec 26 to Tucson with going thru WY-UT-AZ-CA and back to AZ.

I have been all over the western USA mostly WY/UT and AZ but I have been back NE and as far SE as Mississippi. I have not been to Florida or Maine.

I grew up in upstate NY in a small town of Sodus east of Rochester NY the first 16 years of my life. My parents retired in 1972 and we moved to AR and I finished high school there, went to college and vocational school (Job Corps) then a couple years in the US Navy. After returning home in August 1976 I worked till the following June and started my story on the road as I told above. 

Now my plans are to stay in the area I am in southwest Utah and work year round but part time in the winters and full time thru the summers. Semi-retired as I have always been but I like having a roof over my head other than my tent after 36 years on the road.  I like this area here in the SE edge of the Grand Staircase country.

My plans for the winter are to hike on my 3-4 days off a week and hike the Parunuweap, east Zion and other places nearby the small old Mormon town I live in.

Go to Yahoo groups called Zion National Park Hiking for more details on Zion, the Parunuweap and other places here. There is a lot of helpful info about this area at the Zion group site. I have been a member since 2004 and first came down here from JH in the spring of 2005 and stayed a year working as i am now and hiking on my time off. 

Where do you live George? Check out my trip reports here at TS. I am currently working on the 277 pictures I shot during my last adventures with a friend last week and will be posting my shots as I have captioned them.

11:18 a.m. on October 15, 2013 (EDT)
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I notice George the long weblink like this when I copy the link to a certain place:


I wonder why its so long? The above link goes to the park boundary between the Parunuweap and the closed section of the park. But very cool indeed, thanks for telling my how t use Acme Mapper!

11:58 a.m. on October 15, 2013 (EDT)
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I'm on my way out the door, but here's the quick answer: The URL (what you are calling a "weblink") for the map includes location info for each marker, as well as map type, map zoom, etc. Since you used five markers, you ended up with a long URL. If you like, you can use free URL shortening services like this one from Google or this one from Tiny URL to create a shorter URL.

12:02 p.m. on October 15, 2013 (EDT)
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If you need more help, you should PM me because this is off topic and we don't want to clutter up the place.

4:05 p.m. on October 15, 2013 (EDT)
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Gary, you remind me a little of Daniel Suelo. :-)

I'll PM you to answer your other questions.

7:53 a.m. on October 17, 2013 (EDT)
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Last year my uncle ran from the south rim down and across the canyon to the north rim and back in 22 hours. there was a water station that was out on the north rim side. if that will affect you, might want to check on it.

11:47 a.m. on October 17, 2013 (EDT)
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Hello Gary. George is correct on having to carry water on some of the remote backcountry routes within Grand Canyon.  The Canyon does not have '100's of springs' that can be considered reliable water sources. You will need to understand the Canyon to find water. Two of my titles are now available on Kindle on Amazon.

See: Surviving Grand Canyon: It's all About Water

at Amazon (links not allowed to external websites)

You can download the free Kindle Reader (look in the right column for the link). A companion title is also available: Surviving Grand Canyon: Lost and Found 


8:24 p.m. on October 17, 2013 (EDT)
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Canyonram, I spent 6 months a year from 1983-03 hiking the Grand Canyon from October to April. Actually there are many places one can find water away from springs in the canyons remote back country.

My longest hike was in the spring of 1999 when I hiked for 28 days and did 256 miles. I started on the South Bass about 20 miles as the crow flies west of Grand Canyon Village and followed the inner canyon routes,trails to the Hermit Camp area where my first of 4 food caches was, then to Phantom Ranch my second cache then up to the North Rim via the N.Kaibab Trail and back then up and over the N.Tonto Trail to Clear Creek and back, then to my third cahe I left on Skeleton Point and then on east to Horseshoe Mesa, then on to Tanner Rapids and my fourth cache up the Beamer Trail to the Little Colorado and the Sipapo and back and out the Tanner Trail to lipon point just west of Desert View.

I logged about 4000 miles in my 20 years of hiking the canyon. I went in on an average of 2-3 week hikes. I started in the early 80's doing the normal tourist trails, then moved to side canyon hikes, then off trail hikes. I have hiked all the major trails,routes and other places only Steck, Butchart, and Fletcher did before me. I have been i areas that maybe only Indian had been before, once found footprints in ancient dusty soil beneath Alligator Point on top of the Red Wall formation. I have been to Stanton's Cave, all the way to Blue Springs up the Little Colorado between the Confluence and Cameron. I have hiked Havasupai, and the old N.Bright Angel Trail. Done the Horse Thief trail and been up and down 75% of the side canyons on the south side from the Tonto Platform. I have climbed the old ladders that lead to mines below the Orphan Mine and followed Big Horn Sheep routes to places no one but sheep have been to before.

I used to know a guy who worked at the library on the south rim who could run R2R in 3 hours. I hiked it a few times my best time walking R2R2R was 17 hours. I used to know a man in his 80's who did 106 R2R's in his 86th year from January 1st to Dec 24th in between working as a volunteer at the GC store.

I even carried a bicycle down from the North Rim to the South Rim once on a bike tour from Wyoming to Tucson. I was told by the permit checking ranger at BA Camp not to ride it in the canyon and not to bring it back thru again. I had taken the wheels off strapped them and my soft panniers to the frame and carried it across in two days that was in 1986 during late October.

I made the GC my winter home for 20 years, spending 10 of those fall,winter and springs in the canyon. I would get stand by permits sometimes having to wait 2-4 days for them then take as long as I could to hike in the canyon. Then return to the rim sometimes hitchhiking to Flagstaff or taking the old Navahopi bus down and back to resupply. Then get right back into the canyon for more weeks.

I once worked a few weeks at the Grand Canyon Railroad Station in Williams and took the train a couple times when they ran the steam locomotive. I also once hiked down the railroad tracks from GC Village to Tusayan finding old railroad builder camps and trash piles. I have also worked on both the south and north rims at the BA Lodges and the Maswik Lodge. 

There are also old miners camps south of the West Rim Drive as well as south of the Rim Drive from GCV to Desert View back in the woods less than a mile with old woodstoves, china and glass food and drink items.

I also once found a copper bracelet on Horseshoe Mesa near one of the old mines.

I take it from your member name before looking that you are a Grand Canyon hiker?

Also I might add, I have been an adventure traveler for the last 36 years, having hitchhiked and bicycle toured all over the west mostly in NM,AZ,UT,CO,WY,CA and AK. I once hitchhiked 10,000 miles in four months in June to Oct 1977 when I was 21 ending up in Alaska where I stayed and worked winters and hiked summers for 2.2 years.

I have been bike touring every year since 1982, never had a car or know how to drive one. I have cycled about 150,000 miles including across Alaska 1000 miles in the summer of 2006. I am almost 58 years old and prefer outdoor life to working. I worked only the summers from 1980 to 2009. I also have backpacked many area of the country from NH to CA, and AK to AR and points in between.

I live on about $3000 a year whether hiking or biking. I have lived and worked in 27 states and hiked at least 40 of them. I am not a popular trail hiker, have never done the AT,PCT or CDT. But have hiked many a mile on non trail routes.

I often hunt small game and fish with homemade traps, throw rocks and stones at animals and have not used a gun for such since I was 16 in 1972. Too noisy and  I can find natural ways to get the job done like an Indian would have. My grandmother was a Mohawk from upstate  New York where I grew up near the Catskills.

I went to the woods because I wished to live deliberately, to front only the essential facts of life, and see if I could not learn what it had to teach, and not, when I came to die, discover that I had not lived.Henry David Thoreau (July 12, 1817 – May 6, 1862)
Climb the mountains and get their good tidings. Nature's peace will flow into you as sunshine flows into trees. The winds will blow their own freshness into you, and the storms their energy, while cares will drop away from you like the leaves of Autumn.John MuirOur National Parks, 1901
Insist on yourself; never imitate. Your own gift you can present every moment with the cumulative force of a whole life's cultivation; but of the adopted talent of another you have only an extemporaneous half possession. That which each can do best, none but his Maker can teach him.”
― Ralph Waldo EmersonSelf-Reliance
9:59 p.m. on October 17, 2013 (EDT)
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Bravo Zulu

11:53 p.m. on October 17, 2013 (EDT)
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Understand your hunger for the GC, Gary, but was hoping you might stop by again this winter.  Maybe I'll have to go north to see you, huh?   I hosted a cyclist from Oregon last night ... he's on his way to Florida, before starting the Winter Quarter, back in Oregon.  No sooner did I return home, after taking him to a bike shop in Goodyear ... when a fellow cyclist called, wanting to stay Sunday night, enroute from the West Coast to the East.    Me, I've been hiking 13 miles every other day ... Maybe I'll soon be in good enough shape to tackle another R2R hike, again.  What say you?   Rood

12:46 p.m. on October 18, 2013 (EDT)
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I am hosting a couple from Belgium either tonight or tomorrow. I have hosted about 12 mixed groups this summer since being here. I pay the $20 fee for them to either stay in their tents or in my trailer to stay at the RV park I live in. I met a guy when I was coming home last afternoon who was cycling south to Zion, we chatted on the side of the road for a few minutes. He started in Pennsylvania. 

Its 1030 am and the sun just came over the White Cliff a 1000 foot high wall about 100 feet east of my trailer. Its finally starting to warm up a bit. I am going to town soon to get some things and check my mail.

I sent you Rood, a private message thru TS.

Its my day off, but nothing planned. I am waiting till later in November when I start taking either 3-4 days off a week or just take a leave of absence for a few months to backpack and camp when ever I want for as long as I want. I am not used to working year round and this will be about the 6th time in 26 years I have worked and/or stayed in one place all seasons.

I stayed with Rood in Buckeye last December on my bike tour, we hiked Quartz Peak a 5000 foot hike in the warm desert air. It was very nice to hike in mid December with him.

11:12 a.m. on October 19, 2013 (EDT)
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Hello Gary Palmer,

Thanks for sharing your extensive history of hiking the Canyon. I didn't mean to insult you by posting my comment in regards to '100's of springs' in Grand Canyon.  (Regardless of your hiking history, there are not 100's of springs.  I'm curious as to where you are finding all the springs?) Also, recheck your mileage for following  the Tonto from South Bass to the Hopi Supapi.

We have a lot in common in regards to hiking the Canyon---my first hike was back when I was 12 in 1962 and of course I fell in love with the Canyon and am still doing hikes there (I'm 63 now). I worked at the Canyon on-and-off over the years for the sole purpose of being near the Canyon.  I spent several months in the late 70's attempting to study the feral burro population along the Tonto. The Park Service was planning to kill the burro population since they were destroying the ecology of the South Rim---Animal Protection groups ended up stepping in and literally air-lifting them out of the Canyon by helicopter.  My study was to see if we could eliminate dominant males and curtail the breeding. I had water caches all along the Tonto and did not count on there being water in the few springs as I chased after the burros with my binoculars and notebook.

I was friends with Maverick (the 80+ year old hiker) up to the time of his  suicide/murder of his wife. His claim to R2R hikes grew each time I spoke with him---at first, it was 80 to celebrate his 80th birthday---and it kept climbing.  He was maxing out against the number of days the North Rim is open and the shuttle bus service to get him to the North Rim without doing 3-4 R2R hikes per week. 

Any exaggeration can be deadly, be it claims of  R2R hikes or 100's of springs.  Those unfamiliar with the Canyon can take those claims as solid facts and get themselves in plenty of trouble (or into the grave) should they attempt the same kind of extensive hikes.





6:29 p.m. on October 19, 2013 (EDT)
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My mileage in the canyon was not just from the Bass TH to the Sipapo. I went north at the silver bridge and hiked up to the North Rim via the N.Kaibab Trail, then back and around to the old N. Bright Angle TH and down to Cottonwood then down to the trail up to the N. Tonto Platform and all the way to Clear Creek and up to Chevaya Falls also down the canyon and back to the Colorado River then back to the N.Kaibab crossing the black bridge and up to the South Tonto trail then east to Tanner Rapids and up the Beamer Trail all the way to the Sipapo and back to Lipan(?) Point west of Desert View. 

There are not 100's of spring as I was just stating there are many of them on both sides of the canyon.

Have you been to Ribbon Falls , Upper Ribbon and Upper Upper Ribbon Falls. I have also hiked to the head of Wall Creek Canyon, up on Utah Flats above the BA Campground. Also all the way west to Elves Chasm.

In late September 1996 a friend and I went down to Havasupai and walked from Mooney Falls to the Colorado River and back down Havasu Canyon. We stood in the mouth of Havasu Canyon where it empties into the Colorado River. 

I did the Steck or Butchart route from the S.Kaibab Trail along the top of the Red wall to below Shoshoni Point coming out there. Have also been out to the Battleship off the Bright Angel Trail and along the Red wall to the Alligator and down Horn Canyon following a Big Horn route to the Colorado River bypassing a high drop in the middle part of the canyon.

Also to the head of Cremation Canyon just east of the S.Kaibab and down it to the drop pools. 

After 20 years spending 6 months of the fall, winter and spring in the GC I saw a lot of it. 

Sometime soon in the next couple years I want to go out to Swamp Point on the North Rim and hike out to Powell Plateau and down to Thunder River.


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