Why don’t you use a hammock?

Other than back problems. In summer on solo trips if trees are available. The comfort can’t be beat and the coverage area of the tarp and having a readily available recliner! Heck what’s not to like? Oh did I mention the weight savings?

Your opinion???

My problem starts with lack of suitable trees.

Hammocks seem mainly an eastern, southern, and forest camper thing, where being able to get off the ground solves several problems (e.g. bugs, standing water, etc.)  The vast majority of my trips are out west to alpine or desert destinations,where such issues are normally not present.  I rarely see hammocks in these western venues, and most of those are people who are visiting or relocating from the east.  It is hard enough for me to locate a comfortable camp in these settings without also requiring the site provides features suitable to string up one or more hammocks. 

As for camp comfort, I do not spend time vegging in my nest, other than for sleep.  I prefer a bear canister as a stool, but mostly remain on my feet.  I'm the guy who always has something to do about camp.  Also as a side sleeper I so not find hammocks comfortable, I end up tossing like a fried egg from one side to the other, trying to get comfortable.

While I bring a pyramid tarp for shelter, I rarely sleep in it, preferring a personal sleep bug net as a cover for sleeping out in the open, under the stars, on a good sleeping pad.  I find this by far the most comfortable and enjoyable way to sleep. 

Ed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXwRlLMvux0

Besides back and knees not feeling good after trying three different hammock setups (I have trouble with both and need to lie completely flat or on my side) I had several things I didn't like....

1. Prefer open camps with views in good weather 
2. In rough weather I preferred cooking and eating in my sleeping bag in non bear country. For me that's easier in a tent with large vestibules. 
3. More room for my stuff and easier to spread out maps to plan the next day 
4. Can be under the outer fly with all gear in a couple of minutes in a storm
5. Weight savings were not significant over my tent (2 lbs)

To each their own, but it just didn't work out for me. I hear many people say they sleep better but I didn't so that was the biggest reason  

What do you do with a hammock when there are no trees???

hikermor said:

What do you do with a hammock when there are no trees???

 I always find this question amusing, because the answer is that you do the same thing that folks with a tent do; Sleep on the ground!

My hammock based distance kit converts for use on the ground or in a shelter. NeoAir and a piece of window film plastic to put under it works either way. If bugs are an issue I'll crawl inside the hammock's bug net. In an open shelter the tarp is available to string across the open end if needed. Outside I set up the tarp using my hiking poles.

That being said, there are two valid reasons not to use a hammock:

1 Haven't tried one

2 Don't like them

There is no one true way. Do what makes you happy and don't worry if other folks do it too. Make your own kind of music...

Well, this is a subset of "Haven't tried one":

I'm overwhelmed by the choices. I've laid in a few here and there on the trail but I can't tell what kind of hammock I'll like from that brief sample. I'm guessing I'll need to borrow one and try to actually spend a night in it to get any idea.

But my recent bent towards off-trail trips could really be enhanced with a hammock when in the Southern Apps. You just can't count a flat enough spot for a good nights rest. 

LS...have you slept on the ground in the hammock in really windy conditions? I see your point but met a guy with a hammock who was on an open bald in adverse conditions and he couldn't get a really good taught setup without the trees. Is yours better? My wifes Warbonnet would have a difficult time in exposed windy sites (without trees) as there is a lot of material to set sail. 

I don't worry about hanging the hammock if I'm on the ground Phil. It just gets draped over the sleeping pad if I want to use the bug net. Using the poles I can get a pretty good tarp pitch, but I don't attach the hammock to them. There is an advantage to having separate tarp and hammock in terms of flexibility. I still try to avoid that open bald on a night with swirling winds thing though. The solution to that guys problem was to move down into the trees :)

JRinGeorgia said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXwRlLMvux0

 Well now if I was hiking with her Id definitely want a tent . Hammock could present a few problems. Nothing we couldn’t work around though. :)

hikermor said:

What do you do with a hammock when there are no trees???

 Bivy or take the tent in that scenario. 

I’m not advocating hammocks I’m just saying there are some xtra nice benefits. in the right conditions .

FlipNC said:

Besides back and knees not feeling good after trying three different hammock setups (I have trouble with both and need to lie completely flat or on my side) I had several things I didn't like....

1. Prefer open camps with views in good weather 
2. In rough weather I preferred cooking and eating in my sleeping bag in non bear country. For me that's easier in a tent with large vestibules. 
3. More room for my stuff and easier to spread out maps to plan the next day 
4. Can be under the outer fly with all gear in a couple of minutes in a storm
5. Weight savings were not significant over my tent (2 lbs)

To each their own, but it just didn't work out for me. I hear many people say they sleep better but I didn't so that was the biggest reason  

 Phil just for fun and debate purpose I’m gonna throw Back at you on this. And I do agree that with back issues tents are the way to go, however I’ve found that if you lay slightly diagonal they tend to flatten out significantly with out any loss in stabiLory.

#1 you can leave tarp off

#2 granted your not sealed in completely like a tent, but with the right tarp you can do some amazing setups that match a tent rain fly & floor . Plus the coverage area gives a whole lot more room if your socked in.

#3 Clark jungle hammocks have 6 pockets that are so large you can fit everything you carry in them and use the hammock like a recliner to read the paper 

# 4 setup overall is probably the same. But the tarp is way faster than any tent and your  out of the rain with time to decide what you’re gonna do. Once a tent is up it a little bit more effolet to change your mind or move.

#5 you are correct on this, but let me point out that alot of a hammocks positives are the things you can leave out. IE: the extra tarp we all carry, that camp chair, footprints, ect all. So you generally can make up the weight difference and then some.

Like I was saying. Not advocating just curious as to why other than back problems, they aren’t used by us more.

Patman said:

Well, this is a subset of "Haven't tried one":

I'm overwhelmed by the choices. I've laid in a few here and there on the trail but I can't tell what kind of hammock I'll like from that brief sample. I'm guessing I'll need to borrow one and try to actually spend a night in it to get any idea.

But my recent bent towards off-trail trips could really be enhanced with a hammock when in the Southern Apps. You just can't count a flat enough spot for a good nights rest. 

 Patrick- you are one of the few that I would lend my Clark to so if ya want let me know and either it or my ENO are at your disposal. Just PM me. 

you will love how cool your back is in the night in this southern heat. And that’s the main reason I like them in summer. 

The worst part about them is changing if your not in an isolated location. But it is doable.

John Starnes said:

Oh did I mention the weight savings?

Compared to what? I'm all in at under 19 oz with a tarp, bugnet, tyvek groundsheet, lines and stakes.

John

Always enjoy a good debate...some good points and here are my counterpoints...all very personal choices:

#1 you can leave tarp off

#2 granted your not sealed in completely like a tent, but with the right tarp you can do some amazing setups that match a tent rain fly & floor . Plus the coverage area gives a whole lot more room if your socked in.

#3 Clark jungle hammocks have 6 pockets that are so large you can fit everything you carry in them and use the hammock like a recliner to read the paper 

# 4 setup overall is probably the same. But the tarp is way faster than any tent and your  out of the rain with time to decide what you’re gonna do. Once a tent is up it a little bit more effolet to change your mind or move.

#5 you are correct on this, but let me point out that alot of a hammocks positives are the things you can leave out. IE: the extra tarp we all carry, that camp chair, footprints, ect all. So you generally can make up the weight difference and then some.

1. I meant you have to camp under trees so have limited views. My preference is full views above treeline if Mother nature cooperates.

2. I should have been clearer on this...just found it not comfortable to lean down out of the hammock to cook etc vs being on the ground at the same level. Tough to break my thirty plus years of camp habits 

3. Tried that and it didn't work for me...need the tent floor  "desk" for my off trail explorations and map planning. Found it hard to do in a hammock.

4. This sounds like a challenge or a new sport for espn4...I can setup the outer of my Tarptent as quick as any tarp...just have to figure out a prize for the winner!

5. With my tent I don't need the extra tarp. Trail chair maybe...might still need one around camp. Good points.

I tried the diagonal sleeping...watched tons of videos and have slept in three different hammocks for 20 plus nights (mostly back yard tests and two trips)... Still woke up stiff and sore so the other minor complaints don't even matter to me. I can't handle the minor bendand can't figure out how to get completely flat. It's all about a good night's sleep...which is why a lot of folks use hammocks in the first place. 

JRinGeorgia said:

John Starnes said:

Oh did I mention the weight savings?

Compared to what? I'm all in at under 19 oz with a tarp, bugnet, tyvek groundsheet, lines and stakes.

 Well since your practically cowboy camping, how is it you even have a dog in this fight?

your a little too hard core for us softies With all our creature comforts. 

To answer your question a tent.

Phil 

I’ll concede points 1,2,3,5 but # 4 you don’t stand a chance. 

with carbiner bungie straps the tarp is up as fast as you can walk between attachment points.

i will say this though I like them both but overall tent is a better option for me as well. Beside it gives ya the sense that you‘re Actually camping, as I believe someone already mentioned, verses the this is the life laying around doing nothing feeling  get with the hammock.

whomeworry said:

My problem starts with lack of suitable trees.

 Now ED I know for a fact y’all got trees out there on the left coast cause we watch y’all burn them every year on the Home Theatre As an excuse to get more of our eastern tax dollars.And since your obviously beach camping with all that sand there has to be palm trees.

just a little smart alec humor :) there buddy. 

Feel free to let that mighty pen of yours fly.

John Starnes said:

whomeworry said:

My problem starts with lack of suitable trees.

 Now ED I know for a fact y’all got trees out there on the left coast ...

 Not so many where I camp, at and above tree line or out in the desert.

Above: Evolution Lake, JMT.  The two trees, mid picture, and the others off in the distance on the peninsula are about the only near suitable candidates to hammock from.  But the peninsula trees are not the minimal regulation distance from the lake permitted for a camp.  Neither group has a large enough gap between trees to string up a hammock.  Otherwise the remaining trees are too small, or located on rugged hillside stances that make a poor choice for a camp site, canceling out whatever comfort a hammock offers.  Below: Joshua Tree NP, along the Boy Scout Trail, near Willow Hollow trail fork.  Very few trees, period.  And those available are too far apart to string a hammock.

Using common sense, assuming hammock camping is superior, and it were feasible throughout the western states, wouldn't it follow that there would be a lot more hammock camping out here?   Yea, we have trees, but terrain prioritizes site selection.  In the mountains where I camp the location of relatively level ground predicates camp locations.  A camp on a steep side slope among a jumble of rocks is unsuitable, unless one likes risking an ankle twist when up and about.  Combine that with the previously mentioned considerations and you will understand why most resort to tents out here.

John Starnes said:

JRinGeorgia said:

John Starnes said:

Oh did I mention the weight savings?

Compared to what? I'm all in at under 19 oz with a tarp, bugnet, tyvek groundsheet, lines and stakes.

 Well since your practically cowboy camping, how is it you even have a dog in this fight?

your a little too hard core for us softies With all our creature comforts. 

To answer your question a tent.

Your criteria as to what passes as a tent is rather arbitrary.  My pyramid tarp can seal right down to the dirt, and as for lack of a floor, I use a ground cloth.  What is the difference between this and a tent?

I can assure you John, I do not camp hard core.  My "lite" pack at 65 pounds has far more creature comforts than the combined luxury you'll likely to find in several hikers' packs combined.  I am always warm, dry, have clean clothes to change into at the end of every day, and according to some, eat better than they can cook at home.

Above: Bear canister outfitted as a cooler.  Hard core only in pursuit of creature comfort.  Below:  Rack of lamb roasting on a wood shiver.  Sigh, the sacrifices we hard core tarp campers make...


Above: More "hard core" cuisine - baby back ribs roasting on a backpacker's grill.  Below: Peruvian style roasted chicken.  Alas my minimalist proclivities compelled me to leave the Lenox china and Waterford crystal back home...

While my minimal shelter weight is close to JR's tarp, it is also a shelter affording 52 sq ft of floor space and about 5' peak height.  Four people can sit upright facing each other without banging their heads into the tent walls.  This is my solo tent.  Nothing minimalist about that!

 Ed

Brother Ed

Brother Ed um Ok on part one, still looks like the beach though (grinning)! And ain’t no one said that a hammock was superior , it just has some nice positives.

now as to the second part (pause) well ya kinda caught me off guard. Never figured to get into a discussion where you were defending the fact that your not hard core.

but since we are splitting hairs, you accused me of being arbitrary in my definition of tent (which I did not give) well sir I beg to differ. I believe you are being loose with your translation of the English language.

websters defines a tent as a portable structure that uses poles ( and I might add correctly I think that in today’s age we all or at least the majority of civilization  generally expect a tent will have a door and or window. But not always. Now a tarp doesn’t qualify as a tent until a pole is used in conjuntion with it!

In which case you win on the weight issue, or maybe not depending on if we agree to include the ground tarp, bug nets sleeping pads and bags that will not be necessary with a hamock in certain conditions.

man those meals look awesome! I’m not minimalist either but eating that good on the trail is a crime .  If ya don’t invite the rest of us mortals.

so why don’t you confess up now , we know you have been at the beach eating like that and having a  condo with that much square foot on the trail. Come on man fess up.

John Starnes said:

Brother Ed um Ok on part one, still looks like the beach though (grinning)! And ain’t no one said that a hammock was superior , it just has some nice positives.

now as to the second part (pause) well ya kinda caught me off guard. Never figured to get into a discussion where you were defending the fact that your not hard core.

but since we are splitting hairs, you accused me of being arbitrary in my definition of tent (which I did not give) well sir I beg to differ. I believe you are being loose with your translation of the English language.

websters defines a tent as a portable structure that uses poles ( and I might add correctly I think that in today’s age we all or at least the majority of civilization  generally expect a tent will have a door and or window. But not

I posited hammocks as preferable for the sake of building a compelling argument in their favor.  And based on their advocates, hammocks seem to have distinct advantages in the right settings.  But they are not a good match for much of what lies out west.   

My comments on hard core were ironic - I was fun'in you! I am about the biggest proponent of a comfortable base camp you'll ever find. I hauled a 95 pound 6 1/2 miles up 3000' to a 10400' elevation 5 day summer time base camp in the Eastern Sierra in 2015.  All for the love of my camp comforts.  I was in my late sixties.  About half those that were camping in the nearby area opted to hire outfitters to haul their kit by mule up this trail - that is how tough it is.  We ate pan seared ribeye in a cabernet reduction, with sauteed carrots and brussel sprouts sides and good wine, on our first evening.  We enjoy similar repast on the subsequent three evenings.  My point being I make few sacrifices for comfort, especially when it comes to choice of shelter.

As for terminology: what passes for a tent is actually quite general.  This definition has stood the test of many generations.  What the vast majority of civilization expects is irrelevant, as they do not even backpack!  In any case I would caution against using populist opinion to define any terminology used in an otherwise intelligent conversation.

Ed   

 Lol . I kinda knew that .

however  i was not using populist opinion but populist understanding or view if you prefer. Less they be confused since their understanding has also withstood the test of time also. What we define amongst ourselves doesn’t make it correct in the larger picture.

all in good fun here also.

John Starnes said:

JRinGeorgia said:

John Starnes said:

Oh did I mention the weight savings?

Compared to what? I'm all in at under 19 oz with a tarp, bugnet, tyvek groundsheet, lines and stakes.

 Well since your practically cowboy camping, how is it you even have a dog in this fight?

your a little too hard core for us softies With all our creature comforts.

Not cowboy camping -- the only thing different from my setup compared to a double-walled "full tent" is a bathtub floor. I have way more space than many traditional 1p tents. And which creature comforts come with a hammock setup that don't with a tent or even a minimalist ground shelter?

John, if I sound like I'm challenging, well, I guess I am. But you are basing your comparison on some assumptions that I just don't think have to be true (lighter weight, creature comforts). They may be true compared to your particular ground shelter but not all of them categorically, IMO.

John Starnes said:

 Lol . I kinda knew that .

however  i was not using populist opinion but populist understanding or view if you prefer. Less they be confused since their understanding has also withstood the test of time also. What we define amongst ourselves doesn’t make it correct in the larger picture.

all in good fun here also.

Be it populist opinion or populist understanding, in this instance both are actually a misunderstanding when compared to the dictionary description.  Just because the masses have been running since time immemorial with the notion the earth is flat does not lend credence to adopting that understanding while in a conversation about geography.  As so it goes with other topics and terminology, including tents.  There is a reason the so-call populist understanding of what constitutes a tent is not the definition you'll find when looking up the meaning of tent - because it is wrong.  If society can't agree upon common definitions for its terminology, well then you have little basis for concise communication.  Just saying...

Ed

Ed -if that isn’t a classic argument for double speak I don’t know what is. Society has agreed for some time. It’s those of us who want to throw out the accepted norms when they don’t suit our purpose or side That have the issues.

i clicked on your link for tent and it gave the same definition. If we throw out common ground in understanding ( which is what a dictionary provides) well then we would never  have intelligent conversations as you say. I’m sorry in this the definition stands whether you like it or not. Otherwise we agree to disagree as the old saying goes, and we make no further progress. And that isn’t intelligents it is obstinacy in an untenable position.

you and I would agree that a tarp is a tent between ourselves, however we are not the only one in the discussion, countless voices throughout the ages have spoken and came to a conclusion which they defined and we use many of their same conclusion as support for every conversation we have. In short cherry picking to suit our own conclusions isnt proving a point it is trying to win a debate.

there has to be a delineation point between 2 distinctly different things such as a tent and or tarp. both dictionaries gave that same reference for a tent. Between you and I it can be what ever we choose to agree on. But I would caution you that we are not alone in this but are on a social media forum where prudents dictates that we used common understanding and language unless we state otherwise. Because if we don’t we could have chaos.

JRinGeorgia said:

John Starnes said:

JRinGeorgia said:

John Starnes said:

Oh did I mention the weight savings?

Compared to what? I'm all in at under 19 oz with a tarp, bugnet, tyvek groundsheet, lines and stakes.

 Well since your practically cowboy camping, how is it you even have a dog in this fight?

your a little too hard core for us softies With all our creature comforts.

Not cowboy camping -- the only thing different from my setup compared to a double-walled "full tent" is a bathtub floor. I have way more space than many traditional 1p tents. And which creature comforts come with a hammock setup that don't with a tent or even a minimalist ground shelter?

John, if I sound like I'm challenging, well, I guess I am. But you are basing your comparison on some assumptions that I just don't think have to be true (lighter weight, creature comforts). They may be true compared to your particular ground shelter but not all of them categorically, IMO.

 Accepted. My arguments were ment againot the average, they would certainly not hold water against a specialist. Practically anything attempted can have  exception. If you were to suddenly switch to hammocks I’m quite sure that you have the capability to take the argument to the other side. 

What im saying is that under  the norm and in general a hammock is ligher that a tent. And does offer some extra benefits that I previously stated are very nice. Further more my intent for this topic was more in the line with curiosity than debate. either way so be it.

John I have a hammock made by Serac I haven't tried yet....I be testing and using it this spring....

John Starnes said:

Ed -if that isn’t a classic argument for double speak I don’t know what is. Society has agreed for some time. It’s those of us who want to throw out the accepted norms when they don’t suit our purpose or side That have the issues.

i clicked on your link for tent and it gave the same definition. If we throw out common ground in understanding ( which is what a dictionary provides) well then we would never  have intelligent conversations as you say. I’m sorry in this the definition stands whether you like it or not. Otherwise we agree to disagree as the old saying goes, and we make no further progress. And that isn’t intelligents it is obstinacy in an untenable position.

you and I would agree that a tarp is a tent between ourselves, however we are not the only one in the discussion, countless voices throughout the ages have spoken and came to a conclusion which they defined and we use many of their same conclusion as support for every conversation we have. In short cherry picking to suit our own conclusions isnt proving a point it is trying to win a debate.

there has to be a delineation point between 2 distinctly different things such as a tent and or tarp. both dictionaries gave that same reference for a tent. Between you and I it can be what ever we choose to agree on. But I would caution you that we are not alone in this but are on a social media forum where prudents dictates that we used common understanding and language unless we state otherwise. Because if we don’t we could have chaos.

You shouldn't wrestle a pig, or debate with me, as we may both enjoy it:)

So we should respect populist opinion without qualification?  Consider these popular POVs:

• The masses think micro waves cook food from the inside out.  Not true.
• Standing next to a microwave oven may cause cancer.  Nope!
• Vaccines cause autism and other health issues.  Nonsense!
• The Twinkie murder defense?  Never happened.  The defense explanation in the Harvey Milk murder case was depression, not junk food. This is what happens when you get your news from The National Enquirer.
• Violent crime over the recent decades has been on the decline, yet you'd never know that listening to the masses and certain media outlets.
• Illegal immigrants commit fewer violent crimes than the same number of citizens, yet the masses disagree.  We are entitled to our own opinions, not facts.
• People refer to the apple as the forbidden fruit.  The Bible makes no such claim.
• Contrary to populist notion, no one was burned at the Salem Witch Trials.  Read a history book folks...
• George Washington did not have wooden dentures.  The wooden dentures nonsense is what you get when people are too lazy to read a history text.
• Mrs O'Leary's cow did not start the Chicago fire.  Again, history invented by those who don't read.
• The heat generated by space vehicles re-entering the earths atmosphere is not caused by friction, though the masses will tell you otherwise.
• Being chilled can cause illness.  No.  Someone skipped science class.
• And implied in this thread, the masses think all tents have a floor and door and usually have a window.  

Just because the masses have an opinion does not legitimize it.  You state we should be cognizant of the populist POV of the masses, and use language with their perspectives in mind.  It is for this exact reason why the default of any discussion is adopting definitions everyone can look up for themselves in a dictionary.  "tent" is not a slang word, there is no reason to depart from the standard form of the word.  One HUGE problem with internet is folks who argue points that have no basis in reality, or misapply terminology because that is what they "know."  These self proclaimed facts and opinions are the basis for much chaos and perpetuate ignorance, not understanding.  You cannot avert the chaos that occurs when folks are too lazy to learn the basic definitions of common words.  When people fail to adopt common conventions, text book definitions and nomenclature, you end up in nonsensical debates with everyone seemingly entitled to make up their own meaning for a given word or expression.  Countless other voices indeed have chimed in on this definition of tent - and the results are documented in myriad dictionaries.  But I stand accused of cherry picking.  Well show us your attribution, and provide a published definition that supports your notion tents by definition must have doors and windows.  

As for the definitions a of tarp vs tent: I invite you to look that up, too.  In this case you will have to use some logical deductive process to make a conclusion, given a tarp (i.e. tarpaulin) used as a shelter does also met the criteria for being called a tent. 

Ed

 Lmao

i do believe you just confirmed everything I said. 

by the way I did not say a tent must have a door or window so I feel no need to refudiate ( that’s a new word invented by sara palin). In addition Googled the definition of tarp it seems that the difference is a pole. Given that your tarp ceases to be at the point the 2 are united and becomes a tent with its new attribute!

way too many rabbit trails.

denis daly said:

John I have a hammock made by Serac I haven't tried yet....I be testing and using it this spring....

 Cool 

Denis what has made you decide to try one? 

In some of the back and forth that has gone on in this I did a little research and came across one by SeaToSummit that came in at 5.4 oz and was rated to 300 lbs.

its amazing that something that light can be so strong. I’ll be very interested to hear your observations on the subject when your ready.

Back can't handle being in the shape of a pretzel. 

No trees some of the time.

John Starnes said:

What im saying is that under  the norm and in general a hammock is ligher that a tent.

I don't know how I or anyone can accept this statement without hearing what weight you're talking about. All in, what does your hammock setup weigh? Including hammock, bugnet, fly/tarp, straps/slings, guylines, stakes, etc?

In my experience, your statement is not true, so show us what you're talking about. Relegating that which differs from your broad, general statement to being a special exception is a convenient way to make your statement appear true, but that alone doesn't change anything. If you want to say X is lighter than Y, give us some weights so we know what you're talking about.

JRinGeorgia said:

In my experience, your statement is not true, so show us what you're talking about. Relegating that which differs from your broad, general statement to being a special exception is a convenient way to make your statement appear true, but that alone doesn't change anything. If you want to say X is lighter than Y, give us some weights so we know what you're talking about.

 Yup isn’t that what you and all of us are doing?

to answer your question my Clark jungle hammock is around 3 to 3.5 lbs compared to my Hilleberge which comes in at around 8 lbs. and my others are all in the 5lbs range. Certainly I can go lower in both categories if it was a competition on weight savings. I could walk in and buy the lowest weight to prove a point.

Example The SeaToSummit hammock which I just mentioned to Denis at 5.4 oz use in conjunction with your tarp would probably match or beat even your setup.

by and large if you walk it any store the hammock setup weights less. Now if you go ultra lite or speciallist. Which is what you are doing in fact, when you build your own setup. Then the numbers become skewed an are practically interchangeable.

Im not manipulating anything at all nor making any kind of blanket statement.

under the norms, my statements hold true. And if I take it to your levels I no longer meet my criteria but yours. My criteria is to walk in and buy what works for me and yours appear to develop what works for you and defend it come hell or high water as superior which IMHO is not correct. 

Under the norms or walking down the middle of the road is common ground. That doesn’t discount you achevement in the least. Rather you are to be applauded for being able to beat the norms. In short there has to be a base or center to work from

john it was actually a gift from my brother,He got it from a cairne box.Hes more into bushcraft...So he gave this to me knowing I would put it to use...So I have to say I need to read up and do my research on hammocking....

John Starnes said:

 Lmao

i do believe you just confirmed everything I said. 

by the way I did not say a tent must have a door or window so I feel no need to refudiate ( that’s a new word invented by sara palin). In addition Googled the definition of tarp it seems that the difference is a pole. Given that your tarp ceases to be at the point the 2 are united and becomes a tent with its new attribute!

way too many rabbit trails.

Someone posted: " and I might add correctly I think that in today’s age we all or at least the majority of civilization  generally expect a tent will have a door and or window. But not always".  I believe it was you, John.  If you wish to disown the statement becuase you qualify it with "but not always", well then it seem the populists has a problem with agreeing on what a tent is. 

Yes, rabbit trails are exactly what results when everyone goes their own way instead of agreeing on a common route, methodology, or definitions.  More to the point, however, is our back and forth over semantics has gone down a rabbit hole. 

BTW: My tarp is a pyramid tarp - it has a pole.  Therefore it is a tent.

Ed

John Starnes said:

JRinGeorgia said:

In my experience, your statement is not true, so show us what you're talking about. Relegating that which differs from your broad, general statement to being a special exception is a convenient way to make your statement appear true, but that alone doesn't change anything. If you want to say X is lighter than Y, give us some weights so we know what you're talking about.

 Yup isn’t that what you and all of us are doing?

to answer your question my Clark jungle hammock is around 3 to 3.5 lbs compared to my Hilleberge which comes in at around 8 lbs. and my others are all in the 5lbs range. Certainly I can go lower in both categories if it was a competition on weight savings. I could walk in and buy the lowest weight to prove a point.

Example The SeaToSummit hammock which I just mentioned to Denis at 5.4 oz use in conjunction with your tarp would probably match or beat even your setup.

by and large if you walk it any store the hammock setup weights less. Now if you go ultra lite or speciallist. Which is what you are doing in fact, when you build your own setup. Then the numbers become skewed an are practically interchangeable.

Im not manipulating anything at all nor making any kind of blanket statement.

under the norms, my statements hold true. And if I take it to your levels I no longer meet my criteria but yours. My criteria is to walk in and buy what works for me and yours appear to develop what works for you and defend it come hell or high water as superior which IMHO is not correct. 

Under the norms or walking down the middle of the road is common ground. That doesn’t discount you achevement in the least. Rather you are to be applauded for being able to beat the norms. In short there has to be a base or center to work from

Comparing hammocks to Hillebergs is a rigged comparison.  Most tents weigh a lot less than Hillebergs, and no hammock is designed to deal with the extremes Hillebergs were designed to handle.

Sea to Summit has a hammock & tarp combo listed at 11.7 oz.  If you add bug netting you'll get real close to JR's tarp weight.  If you add the rigging mods that minimize damage to trees caused by hammock rigging you will easily be at or over JR's weight. 

I think nit picking over weight on shelter configurations misses the point.  I have shopped REI for most of my shelters.  I always get something on stock.  My experience is hammocks and tents are very close, weight wise.  For example the MSR hubba, a trad solo 2 wall tent with a floor weighs just under 3 pounds, roughly the same weigh as the typical hammock set up to deal with similar weather elements.  All the major brands have simular weight models to choose from.  When you think about it that makes sense, after all both tents and hammocks need to have a rain fly that covers the occupant, both will use about the same amount of bug netting, and the hammock sling contains about the same amount of fabric and strap materials as a tent floor.  The most significant weight factor is the materials utilized in the shelter.  On this aspect of shelter vs shelter I think a draw is a reasoned conclusion, based on typical weights of tent and hammock shelters.

We can shop these items to their Nth degree of lightness - I'll readily admit weigh was a primary criteria in my choice to go with a pyramid tarp.  And I am confident very few can match the living space and protection from the elements my pyramids affords for its weight.  But I wouldn't reference it in a shelter debate, as anything made of cuben fiber is way more pricey than most are willing to spend.  Lastly selecting shelters primarily on the basis of weight will always lead to selecting a tube tent; yet I bet few are willing to make a tube tent their default shelter choice, given all of its shortcomings.  Which brings us full circle: the reason people choose a hammock has to do primarily with personal comfort issues, and terrain issues (bugs, ground vegetation and ground water);  While tent campers go their own route for personal comfort as the set of terrain considerations they must deal with.         

denis daly said:

john it was actually a gift from my brother,He got it from a cairne box.Hes more into bushcraft...So he gave this to me knowing I would put it to use...So I have to say I need to read up and do my research on hammocking....

 Sorry it’s taken me so long to get back to ya. Had a family tragedy. But that sounds like a pretty darn good brother to actually give ya something that you just might like. Looking forward to your observations.

Ya know... my kids bought me a real nice hammock knowing, that was the only piece of gear I didn't have. Though I had always thought of Gilligan or the Hunchback when it came to sleeping in one, I thought... "why not?"

But giving it more thought, I came to the idea it would be better to sleep like I do at home, so of course not wanting to buy a super expensive king size water bed to use in the Great Outdoors I bought a "cheapy" one instead.

After finding a couple of sturdy trees I tied the hammock up and found it surprisingly didn't take much effort.

What DID become a lot of effort was trying to get my cheapy king sized water bed in it so I could start filling the bed up with water.

As I did, the trees started leaning towards each other real bad, but of course I KNEW that would happen so I only filled the water bed up until it was an inch or two off the ground. Cool, good to go!!!

After eating a delicious dinner of Mac-n-cheese, as darkness came over my camp I decided to settle in for a GOOD night's sleep.

Since I had never heard of anyone doing something this grand before I thought I would think of ways to patent my idea, what to name the new sleeping method, and of course knowing every ounce counts when backpacking I thought I would give some thoughts on how to shave off a few micro ounces or two.

As I ever so gently slipped into my "hammockwaterbedmodule" as I would be calling it in the near future after I got the patents worked out with my brother in law attorney, I heard the clear sound of what I thought was maybe a wild animal in the darkness.

It was like a snapping twig or smallish branch. A moment or two later I sensed it was getting louder, much louder than say, a squirrel collecting nuts, or a deer gingerly prancing by in the nighttime.

SUDDENLY (come on... all of you knew THAT word would be used sooner or later) I felt my dream bed from heaven lower inch and I thought... "whoa.... I think my knots are slipping a bit", but before I could finish that thought, they slipped a bit more. Just enough for a very, little, tiny, itsy-bitsy, toothpick size stick to breach the sensitive skin of my cheapy water bed.

The minor poke was just enough to dump 4,238 gallons and 13.972 fluid ounces of water out in approximately 7/10ths of a nano second.

With all the weigh of the water gone my hammock became a slingshot... of sorts.... and launched me... actually more like rocketed me into the next county.

Other than hitting a few branches on the way out of the county the flight was a wee bit more exciting than even I normally enjoy. What wasn't enjoyable was the sudden landing.

Had I been born a lucky man I may have landed in... say.... a poison oak bush or even rose bushes, but being somewhat UNLUCKY I landed instead in cow pasture, which wouldn't have been so bad had I not hit the bull on the way by.

Slamming into a sleeping Bull at 63 MPH and then sliding across the mud, face first, into bail of hay was bad, real bad, but not as bad as finding out it wasn't "mud" my face was sliding on, now THAT was a lot worse!!! Talk about being embarrassed... geeez. I'll NEVER try that again.

So... what's the moral of the story you ask... well, I don't know!!! Maybe you can help me with that after I get done brushing, flossing and gargling the "mud" out of my mouth!!!

Lol. Sounds like a crappy night.

Didn't see that coming!  Hersh Johnson - dropped right out of the sky and onto the TS forum.  Shit howdy, pull up a stool (the kind you sit on, not slide nose first through).

Ed  

1. they aren't very social unless it's fair weather. in crappy weather, at least you have some company in a tent.  

2. i don't sleep as well in hammocks in windy, rainy weather, even with a well-strung tarp. a good tent does a better job keeping you warm and dry.

3. The hammock/tarp setup is marginally lighter than a good 2 person tent, but the delta is relatively narrow.  

4. depending on the place, you might not easily find places to hang a hammock and tarp.  ain't using these near or above the treeline.  

all that said, they are a nice way to sleep if the weather isn't too nasty, and a heck of a lot better in warm weather than suffering in a tent.  

My reason is first and foremost that I can have a nice afternoon nap inside a hammock but as a dedicated tosser and turner sleeping alternatively on my side , back or front the shape of a hammock does not work for me for a full night.

So contrary to the often repeated "best night sleep ever' that is not the case for all.

(ever wondered why not everyone buys the same type of matres that you like ? ) 

Anyway as for :

#1 you can leave tarp off

You can do that with a tent too (maybe not YOUR tent/s...)

#2 granted your not sealed in completely like a tent, but with the right tarp you can do some amazing setups that match a tent rain fly & floor . Plus the coverage area gives a whole lot more room if your socked in.

I can fit 3 mats with the inner in place or 4 without under the fly of my 2 person TT SS2 ( 46 oz)  

#3 Clark jungle hammocks have 6 pockets that are so large you can fit everything you carry in them and use the hammock like a recliner to read the paper 

That is an advantage but on several of my tents I can set the backpack so that I can lean against it as I read or play cards. Can you play cards in your hammock ? 

# 4 setup overall is probably the same. But the tarp is way faster than any tent and your  out of the rain with time to decide what you’re gonna do. Once a tent is up it a little bit more effolet to change your mind or move.

You should change that to "any tent I am familiar with...) 

For kicks I have videos of setting up a couple of my tents in 50 sec each. Most I can do (in good conditions) in less that 2 minutes. That is for both the single and double wall types (the two walls go up together) 

And no, it isn't faster to dismantle a tarp and setting it up in another spot than it is with some tents. Particularly with freestanding tents (not the American types where only the inner is freestanding..) 

#5 you are correct on this, but let me point out that alot of a hammocks positives are the things you can leave out. IE: the extra tarp we all carry, that camp chair, footprints, ect all. So you generally can make up the weight difference and then some.

But then you can add the  bulk and weight of the extra insulation you need under the tent as soon as the temps cool down. 

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWZQKivY2SA)

Took me over 20 takes to get that. I had to do it in 50 sec as a sort of a dare but I did it at least 10 times in under a minute (just one afternoon of playing around) 

another day 

now, show me anyone setting up (in the most favourable conditions) a hammock and tarp in anything around that time. 

no speeding up or funny cuts.

Thumbs up Franco

good post

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